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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Arabic and BACK TO Self-segregating morphology
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. TriCons Sketch
From: Jeff Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Conlangs in music (was Re: Jon Anderson a conlanger?)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Arabic and BACK TO Self-segregating morphology
From: Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Arabic and BACK TO Self-segregating morphology
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Conlangs in music (was Re: Jon Anderson a conlanger?)
From: mike poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Conlangs in music (was Re: Jon Anderson a conlanger?)
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Jon Anderson a conlanger?
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: TriCons Sketch
From: Thomas Hart Chappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Arabic and BACK TO Self-segregating morphology
From: Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Sidaan Verbal System
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Glyphica Arcana Page
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Glyphica Arcana Page
From: Aidan Grey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Glyphica Arcana Page
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Sidaan Verbal System
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: John Schlembach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Glyphica Arcana Page
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: A Self-segregating morphology (was: Guinea pigs invited)
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 08:31:46 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Arabic and BACK TO Self-segregating morphology
--- Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
>
> You would need to select your vowel patterns
> so these would not be ambiguous:
>
> > nalija -> analinja
>
> NLJ + a-a-in-a
> or
> NLN + a-a-i-na
>
> > patina -> apatilna
>
> PTN + a-a-in-a
> or
> PTL + a-a-i-na
-na- is forbidden. -n may only follow the vowel, so
that source of ambiguity is removed.
What I'm trying to do right now is enumerate a list of
types of words that be derived from any given root
category so that a complete lexicon can be
systematically generated.
A Category is a group of words related to a specific
property. Each category has its inverse category
consisting of words which do not have the category
property. All categories have inverse catagories, but
not all inverse categories are useful.
Each category generates a family of related words,
each of which has a specific realtionship with the
category and it's associated property. The word types,
with examples from several categories, are below. Not
every word type will necessarily exist for every
category.
I. Property Nouns name the property that determines
membership in the category.
category: existence/nonexistence. Property nouns:
existence/nonexistence.
category: strength/weakness. Property nouns:
strength/weakness.
category: light/darkness. Property nouns:
light/darkness.
category: information/entropy. Property nouns:
information/entropy.
category: writing/non-writing. Property nouns:
writing/---.
category: knowledge/ignorance. Property nouns:
knowledge/ignorance.
II. Instance Nouns give the generic name of a member
of the category.
category: existence/nonexistence. Instance nouns:
thing/nonexistent or fictional thing; nothing.
category: strength/weakness. Instance nouns: ?/?.
category: light/darkness. Instance nouns: ?/?.
category: writing/non-writing. Instance nouns:
document/---.
category: information/entropy Instance nouns:
fact/---.
III. Source nouns give the generic name of a
non-sentient source of or creator of the property
that defines membership in the category.
category: existence/nonexistence. Source nouns:
source; creator/destroyer.
category: strength/weakness. Source nouns:
strengthener/weakener.
category: light/darkness. Source nouns: lamp;
light/shadow.
category: writing/non-writing. Source nouns: writing
instrument/eraser
IV. State Verbs assert that the subject has the
property of the category.
category: existence/nonexistence. State verbs: to be;
to exist / to not be; to not exist.
category: strength/weakness. State verbs: to be
strong / to be weak.
category: light/darkness. State verbs: to be light /
to be dark.
category: writing/non-writing. State verbs: to be
written / to be not written.
category: knowledge/ignorance. State verbs: to be
known / to be unknown
V. Transition Verbs assert that the agent caused the
object to enter or leave the category.
category: existence/nonexistence. Transition verbs:
to create / to anihilate.
category: strength/weakness. Transition verbs: to
strengthen / to weaken.
category: light/darkness. Transition verbs: to
illuminate / to darken.
category: writing/non-writing. Transition verbs: to
write / to unwrite; to erase.
category: knowledge/ignorance. Transition verbs: to
learn / to forget.
VI. State Adjectives assign the existence of the
property to the noun they modify.
They have the same meaning as State Verbs.
category: existence/nonexistence. State adjectives:
real/nonexistent.
category: strength/weakness. State adjectives:
strong/weak.
category: light/darkness. State adjectives:
light/dark.
category: writing/non-writing. State adjectives:
written/unwritten.
category: knowledge/ignorance. State adjectives:
known/unknown.
...and so on. I have about 15 types defined so far, so
I can systematically derive 30 words from each root.
I'm sure there are a lot more than 15, though.
--gary
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:13:18 -0800
From: Jeff Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: TriCons Sketch
Hi all,
I still read CONLANG but haven't participated due to the difficulty of
using the library's computers. However, my latest sketch exists because
of that. It's at
http://www.livejournal.com/community/conlangs/280817.html
if you want to look at up. I'm still updating it.... I'll try to answer
questions in a separate message.
Jeff
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:39:58 +0100
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlangs in music (was Re: Jon Anderson a conlanger?)
Hallo!
John Schlembach wrote:
> If you're interested in conlangs in music, there's a French band
> called Magma that sang in a conlang about the chronicles of an alien
> race.
Yes, Magma is familiar to me. I have three albums of them,
and once tried to make sense of Kobaian. Many Kobaian words
sound pretty much like German, but ... And it is written using
some cool diacritics, such as a little crown atop the letter |s|.
There are several other cases. Enya is known for singing in
Sindarin on the LotR movie soundtrack, and apparently later
used another conlang (as discussed here two weeks ago).
There is also a Sigur Ros album titled _()_ with lyrics in
a conlang. Not to mention the many, many songs in Esperanto.
Greetings,
Jörg.
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:08:37 -0500
From: Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Arabic and BACK TO Self-segregating morphology
On 12/19/05, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> If compounds of two or more words are allowed,
> and your derivational patterns include both prefixes
> and suffixes, it seems that a word of seven syllables
> might be ambiguous, e.g.:
>
> (prefix + word1) + word2
> or
> (word1 + suffix) + word2
> or
> word1 + (prefix + word2)
> or
> word1 + (word2 + suffix)
>
> This might also be an ambiguity re:
> the word boundary in a two-word phrase.
>
>
Well, if we're requiring that it not just have self-segmenting morphemes,
but also be structurally unambiguous, we've got some serious work cut out.
Gotta disambiguate these, too:
prefix + (word1 + word2)
(word1 + word2) + suffix
And once you get more than three... well, it would be a nightmare to work
out completely unless serious restrictions were put on word-formation.
Hmm, that's an engineering problem to give one pause. Not just word
segmentation or morpheme segmentation or both of these at once, but both of
these *plus* unambiguous morphological structure.
Any takers?
-- Pat
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:28:23 -0600
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlangs in fiction/movies
The thread on conlangs in music got me curious about other conlangs that
have been used on-screen or in popular books. Resources are easy to find
regarding Klingon and Quenya. Personally, I'd also be interested in seeing
published references about Vulcan (also done by Marc Okrand, of Klingon
fame. Sadly, I've spoken to Mr. Okrand, and he informed me that no Vulcan
Dictionary is forthcoming.)
But, the conlang I'm especially interested in is The Language Before Time,
from the movie "The Fifth Element". I've found enough information to
determine that it *is* a true conlang, created by Luc Besson, the
writer/director of the movie. And also that Besson and the actress Milla
Jovovich were able to have conversations in the language by the end of the
movie's production.
I like the sound of the language, and I'm curious to find web or published
resources about it, if they're available ...
:Chris
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:39:04 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Arabic and BACK TO Self-segregating morphology
--- Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 12/19/05, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > If compounds of two or more words are allowed,
> > and your derivational patterns include both
> prefixes
> > and suffixes, it seems that a word of seven
> syllables
> > might be ambiguous, e.g.:
Word consists of three consonants, each followed by a
single vowel, or followed by a single vowel followed
by 'N' (which is excluded from the list of valid
consonants). Prefix consists of consonant followed by
vowel pair ending in "o" or "u". Suffix consists of
consonant followed by vowel pair ending in "i" or "e".
> > (prefix + word1) + word2
kiotakamintosanti = CVoCVCVCVnCVCVnCV, for example, is
unambiguous.
> > or
> > (word1 + suffix) + word2
lokinsasaitataban = CVCVnCVCViCVCVCVn, for example, is
unambiguous.
> > or
> > word1 + (prefix + word2)
CVnCVCVnCVuCVCVnCV, for example, is unambiguous.
> > or
> > word1 + (word2 + suffix)
> >
CVnCVCVCVnCVnCVCVi, for example, is unambiguous.
> > This might also be an ambiguity re:
> > the word boundary in a two-word phrase.
word boundries might be ambiguous, but context should
disambiguate them, and if it doesn't then the
consecutive words would have the same meaning as the
same words compounded anyway. So no information is
lost.
> Well, if we're requiring that it not just have
> self-segmenting morphemes,
> but also be structurally unambiguous, we've got some
> serious work cut out.
> Gotta disambiguate these, too:
>
> prefix + (word1 + word2)
CVoCVCVnCVnCVCVCV, for example, is unambiguous.
> (word1 + word2) + suffix
CVCVCVCVCVCVCVi, for example, is unambiguous.
> And once you get more than three... well, it would
> be a nightmare to work
> out completely unless serious restrictions were put
> on word-formation.
The restrictions above are not that serious, and they
get the job done.
> Hmm, that's an engineering problem to give one
> pause. Not just word
> segmentation or morpheme segmentation or both of
> these at once, but both of
> these *plus* unambiguous morphological structure.
>
> Any takers?
Been there, done that.
In fact here's another scheme: words are CV(n)...CV(n)
as above, but not restricted to three consonants.
Prefixes and suffixes also have the form CV or CVn.
Prefixes are attached with a "linking: 'i', and
suffixes are attached with a linking "o". When words
are joined a linking "u" is used. Thus:
(prefix)i(word)o(suffix)u(word).
[ka+(i)+sita+(o)+so]+(u)+minka = kaisitaosouminka
which is unambiguous, and probably means exactly the
same thing as: kaisitaoso minka anyway.
Just think in terms of tinker toy modules made of
green and blue sticks, assembled into a large
structure by using only red sticks to form the
connections. No matter how comoplex the final
assembly, the component subassemblies can be
rediscovered by simply removing all the red sticks. In
this case, substituting spaces for I's O's and U's
that follow a vowel or an 'N'.
--gary
> -- Pat
>
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:06:26 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
--- Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> But, the conlang I'm especially interested in is The
> Language Before Time,
> from the movie "The Fifth Element". I've found
> enough information to
> determine that it *is* a true conlang, created by
> Luc Besson, the
> writer/director of the movie. And also that Besson
> and the actress Milla
> Jovovich were able to have conversations in the
> language by the end of the
> movie's production.
>
> I like the sound of the language, and I'm curious to
> find web or published
> resources about it, if they're available ...
>
> :Chris
>
I'll second that motion! It was amazingly well spoken
in the movie too. Far too often we hear aliens
speaking asssorted nonsense syllables in what is
clearly a thick American English accent, and where
even the cadence and structure of the "sentences"
reeks of English.
Not only was Milla's fluency in the language
remarkable, but so was the manner in which being a
"native speaker" of that language influenced her use
of English.
This August 1995 draft of the screenplay is widely
available, but has only a few lines of the language in
it: http://www.sfy.ru/sfy.html?script=fifth_element
I haven't been able to locate a final shooting script
as yet. The best sources I have been able to locate
say that the full vocabulary consists of about 400
words.
--gary
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:42:45 -0000
From: mike poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in music (was Re: Jon Anderson a conlanger?)
There's a very large section of Kobaian on the Magma album (hold on...I'll
just have a look...) "1001° Centigrades"
by Christian Vander with a parallel French text. At the bottom it says (in
French) "Poem that I dreamed on the night of July 8-9 1970"
and it looks like a fairly standard European-type lang.
Examples:
da = "le,la" = the
dusz = "ton,ta,tes" = thy (also used for the object pronoun "te")
ek = que, so metathesised
Most of the time, there's a word-to-word equality from Kobaian to French,
and quite honestly I don't think that much time was given
to it as an actual language, which is a shame. If anyone wants to see the
whole thing, just drop me a line personally.
Mele Kalikimaka a tous,
Michael
Visit the improved website at:
www.starman.co.uk
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/206 - Release Date: 16/12/05
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:40:29 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in music (was Re: Jon Anderson a conlanger?)
Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> There are several other cases. Enya is known for singing in
> Sindarin on the LotR movie soundtrack, and apparently later
> used another conlang (as discussed here two weeks ago).
> There is also a Sigur Ros album titled _()_ with lyrics in
> a conlang. Not to mention the many, many songs in Esperanto.
I wouldn't describe Sigur Ros's Hopelandic/Vonlenska as a conlang. It
has no phonology aside from what it's easy for an Icelandic-speaker to
say, no grammar and no lexicon. It's just gibberish with a particular sound.
From their faq at <http://www.sigur-ros.co.uk/band/faq.php>:
hopelandic (vonlenska in icelandic) is the 'invented language' in which
jónsi sings before lyrics are written to the vocals. it's of course not
an actual language by definition (no vocabulary, grammar, etc.), it's
rather a form of gibberish vocals that fits to the music and acts as
another instrument. jónsi likens it with what singers sometimes do when
they've decided on the melody but haven't written the lyrics yet. many
languages were considered to be used on ( ), including english, but they
decided on hopelandic. hopelandic (vonlenska) got its name from first
song which jónsi sang it on, hope (von).
--
Tristan.
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:53:36 -0800
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Jon Anderson a conlanger?
Don't forget Siggur Ros, form Iceland with their
invented language, Vorlanska.
Adam
--- John Schlembach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you're interested in conlangs in music, there's a
> French band called
> Magma that sang in a conlang about the chronicles of
> an alien race.
>
> To a much lesser degree, there's a Japanese drum 'n'
> bass duo called the
> Ruins that cite Magma as a large influence (though
> their singing is just
> nonsense).
>
> Good stuff.
>
>
> On 12/20/05, Wesley Parish
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I think it's probably Gibberish, the language
> spoken by the Gibbers, an
> > alas-not-yet-extinct human subspecies. ;)
> >
> > Rock singers seem to do a lot of this, making up
> words for their sounds.
> > Perhaps we should collect the lot and try to
> regularize them into some
> > form
> > of morphology/syntax, etc? (Publish a book on
> Gibberish, the language
> > spoken
> > by the Gibbers, with all the appropriate scholarly
> apparatus, etc? ;)
> >
> > Wesley Parish
> >
> > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:38, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> > > Hallo!
> > >
> > > Those who say that Freddie Mercury was the best
> rock singer
> > > of all times probably don't know who Jon
> Anderson is.
> > > I have never ever heard another voice like his.
> > >
> > > In the lyrics of Jon Anderson's solo album
> _Olias of Sunhillow_
> > > (1976) I found the following:
> > >
> > > DO GA DO RIYTAN SHA TOO RAYTAN
> > >
> > > GAN MATTA SHA PA
> > > MUTTO MATTO
> > >
> > > RADAN ATTO RADDAN ATTO
> > > STOU TO MUTTO SHA GO TEKA
> > > SHA GO TEKA DEI
> > >
> > > Does anyone have an idea what language that is,
> or did Jon
> > > make it all up? A conlang would make perfect
> sense, since
> > > it's a tale of refugees from a doomed planet.
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> > >
> > > Jörg.
> >
> > --
> > Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP
> James Blish
> > -----
> > Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
> > You ask, what is the most important thing?
> > Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
> > I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
> >
>
Jin nifalud fistus todus idavi eseud adimpuudu ul isu fi aved niminchunadu pera
ul Dju peu'l medju djul provedu cumvi dichid: «Iñi! Cunchepijid ed nadajid il
virdjini ad junu huiju, ed cuamajuns ad si il Emanueli fi sñivigad ul Dju simu
noviscu.»
Machu 1:22-23
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:46:38 -0600
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
>From: Gary Shannon
>
>
>I haven't been able to locate a final shooting script
>as yet. The best sources I have been able to locate
>say that the full vocabulary consists of about 400
>words.
>
... I also noticed some often-repeated word/sentence endings, which suggest
inflection, but that's the best I could suss out.
One thing that helped out a lot with the "nonsense syllables with an
American accent" problem in that movie was that Jovovich is not a native
English speaker. She hails from some Eastern European country or another.
**** EDIT ****
IMDB says she's Ukrainian. So I wonder if her speech pattern in the movie
(in both English and Conlang) was essentially the same problem, only
filtered through her natural Ukrainian accent?
:Chris
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:41:46 -0500
From: Thomas Hart Chappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TriCons Sketch
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:13:18 -0800, Jeff Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hi all,
>I still read CONLANG but haven't participated due to the difficulty of
>using the library's computers. However, my latest sketch exists because
>of that. It's at
>
>http://www.livejournal.com/community/conlangs/280817.html
>
>if you want to look at up. I'm still updating it.... I'll try to answer
>questions in a separate message.
I think it's beautiful.
I especially like the way it incorporates many of the ideas we have
discussed on CONLANG since I joined, right up to the "triconsonantal roots"
that are being discussed right now.
I will write more when I get more time, and get to study it better.
-----
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:10:05 -0500
From: Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Arabic and BACK TO Self-segregating morphology
On 12/20/05, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Word consists of three consonants, each followed by a
> single vowel, or followed by a single vowel followed
> by 'N' (which is excluded from the list of valid
> consonants). Prefix consists of consonant followed by
> vowel pair ending in "o" or "u". Suffix consists of
> consonant followed by vowel pair ending in "i" or "e".
>
> > > (prefix + word1) + word2
>
> kiotakamintosanti = CVoCVCVCVnCVCVnCV, for example, is
> unambiguous.
>
...
> > prefix + (word1 + word2)
>
> CVoCVCVnCVnCVCVCV, for example, is unambiguous.
...
> The restrictions above are not that serious, and they
> get the job done.
>
Unless I'm missing something, they don't: both (prefix + w1) + w2 and
prefix + (w1 + w2) have the same patterns:
CVoCV(n)CV(n)CV(n)CV(n)CV(n)CV(n)
Same with the patterns with a final suffix. Is the differing
placement of the n's significant?
> In fact here's another scheme: words are CV(n)...CV(n)
> as above, but not restricted to three consonants.
> Prefixes and suffixes also have the form CV or CVn.
> Prefixes are attached with a "linking: 'i', and
> suffixes are attached with a linking "o". When words
> are joined a linking "u" is used. Thus:
> (prefix)i(word)o(suffix)u(word).
>
This could be parsed a handful of ways:
((prefix i word) o suffix) u word
(prefix i (word o suffix)) u word
prefix i ((word o suffix) u word)
And for things like (prefix)i(word)u(word)o(suffix) there are at least
five ways to parse it. We can figure out which morphemes are
prefixes, which are roots, and which are suffixes, but not their
hierarchical structure.
Anyway, there are answers; I just want to see if anyone has any
interesting solutions that don't require infixation, circumfixation,
or the equivalent.
-- Pat
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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:05:42 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sidaan Verbal System
Thomas Hart Chappell wrote:
> Transitive verbs with beneficiaries usually have human beneficiaries, or if
> not, then animate beneficiaries, even when the direct object is not human
> or even not animate.
> Similarly, ditransitive verbs usually have human indirect objects, or at
> least animate indirect objects, even when the direct object is not human,
> or even not animate.
What is the difference between a beneficiary and an indirect object?
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:16:19 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Glyphica Arcana Page
Just wondering if anyone has looked at my Glyphica Arcana page at
http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/BabelTarot.html
I haven't received any feedback from this list and comments are
definitely appreciated.
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/myths/
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:51:56 -0800
From: Aidan Grey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Glyphica Arcana Page
It look scool, but there really isn't enough explanation of how the glyphs
work for me to make heads or tails of what's going on. The stuff on the
composition is particularly transparent to the non-you individual. At least,
that's how I feel when I look at it.
Every time you post that you've made changes, I go look again, but I still
can't make heads or tails of it.
Aidan
Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Just wondering if anyone has
looked at my Glyphica Arcana page at
http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/BabelTarot.html
I haven't received any feedback from this list and comments are
definitely appreciated.
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/myths/
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Message: 17
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 01:18:35 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Glyphica Arcana Page
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:16:19 -0500, Jefferson Wilson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just wondering if anyone has looked at my Glyphica Arcana page at
> http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/BabelTarot.html
>
> I haven't received any feedback from this list and comments are
> definitely appreciated.
Do you have an inclusive OR as well as an exlusive OR, i.e. a marker for
(A AND B) OR (A OR B)
I imagine it's a sememe found more often than some people would realise.
For instance, in
Do you have a lighter, or some matches?
the answer would not be expected to be "No" if I had both a lighter and
matches. There are other logical conjunctions which could potentially be
useful, I imagine especially so in magical texts, which I rather suspect
could become quite algorithmic in nature, given the right system of magic.
Also, I'd recommend more, simpler examples. There's a lot of information
to take in at once there.
Also also, you could find yourself boxed into a corner if you didn't think
out in advance very carefully what you wanted to write. That's a potential
criticism of every 2D writing system with branching, though, so don't take
it personally.
Paul
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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:14:46 +0000
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sidaan Verbal System
>
> What is the difference between a beneficiary and an indirect object?
>
I would guess that the difference he means is one between a recipient
and a beneficiary. I can certainly differentiate the two, and so does
English for the most part for that matter:
I sent the letter to him != I sent the letter for him
Unlike most Romance languages and many other languages, English doesn't
generally allow a beneficiary to be marked by "to" on its own, although
of course you can form constructions involving "to" to indicate a
beneficiary, eg "to his benefit".
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:40:38 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
That's sad, very sad, because my Klingon girlfriend has threatened to
challenge me to a duel unless I can learn Klingon fast enough to allow me to
be introduced to her parents ... ;) (and she's making the voorish sign as
well, and muttering incantations to Cthulhu, and I fear for my very
soul ... ;)
Tell Mr. Okrand much more than my life depends on that Dictionary .... ia, ia,
ia ftagn!
Randolph Carter
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:28, Chris Peters wrote:
> The thread on conlangs in music got me curious about other conlangs that
> have been used on-screen or in popular books. Resources are easy to find
> regarding Klingon and Quenya. Personally, I'd also be interested in seeing
> published references about Vulcan (also done by Marc Okrand, of Klingon
> fame. Sadly, I've spoken to Mr. Okrand, and he informed me that no Vulcan
> Dictionary is forthcoming.)
>
<snip>
>
> :Chris
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:26:41 +0000
From: Keith Gaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
Chris Peters wrote:
> ... I also noticed some often-repeated word/sentence endings, which
> suggest inflection, but that's the best I could suss out.
>
> One thing that helped out a lot with the "nonsense syllables with an
> American accent" problem in that movie was that Jovovich is not a native
> English speaker. She hails from some Eastern European country or another.
>
> **** EDIT ****
> IMDB says she's Ukrainian. So I wonder if her speech pattern in the
> movie (in both English and Conlang) was essentially the same problem,
> only filtered through her natural Ukrainian accent?
Almost, though not quite right. Her family moved to the US when she was
five. Her mother's Ukrainian (from the east of the country, I assume),
and she was born there; her father's a Montenegrin Serb; and she can
speak English, French, Serbian and Russian quite fluently.
It's more likely that the fact she's a polyglot makes it much easier
for her to avoid the nonsense-spanglish that most US films and shows
end up using to represent imaginary languages.
K.
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Message: 21
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 05:41:41 -0600
From: John Schlembach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
Do games count as fiction? I've tried to find out information about the
language spoken in a few games I enjoyed, particularly the language you hear
from the Creator in Lucasarts' "The Dig" and the conlangs in the Myst
series.
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Message: 22
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:23:47 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Glyphica Arcana Page
Hi!
Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:16:19 -0500, Jefferson Wilson
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Just wondering if anyone has looked at my Glyphica Arcana page at
> > http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/BabelTarot.html
> >
> > I haven't received any feedback from this list and comments are
> > definitely appreciated.
>
> Do you have an inclusive OR as well as an exlusive OR, i.e. a marker for
>
> (A AND B) OR (A OR B)
That's quite redundant and could be reduced to a simple (A OR B).
I'm sure you mean the following instead:
A B (NOT (A AND B)) AND (A OR B)
0 0 0
1 0 1
0 1 1
1 1 0
> Do you have a lighter, or some matches?
Indeed, it is a typical (lame :-)) joke by first semester computer
science students to answer 'yes' to a question like: 'Will you eat at
the cafeteria or did you bring something yourself?'.
I think my Tyl Sjok is worst in this respect: it only has one
coordination particle. If used without anything else, it only
indicates that no subordination/modification happens and that the two
linked constituents are equally coordinated. It may mean 'and' as
well as 'or', 'xor', whatever. For clarifying the meaning, you need
additional words. :-)
**Henrik
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Message: 23
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:26:50 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
Hi!
Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> That's sad, very sad, because my Klingon girlfriend has threatened to ...
WOW! A Klingon girlfriend! You must be a very happy guy. :-)
**Henrik
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Message: 24
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:43:02 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
John Schlembach wrote:
> I enjoyed, particularly the language you hear
> from the Creator in Lucasarts' "The Dig" and the conlangs in the Myst
> series.
You mean D'ni, doesn't you? It's really fascinating. The onlly problem with
D'ni is the copyright and the fact the designer is reluctant to popularize
his conlang. Thus, we can know only those things that are found in the
games. That is why the lang lacks a lot of basic vocabulary, although the
grammar is more or less known.
Find info about D'ni here:
http://linguists.bahro.com/
lessons on canonic grammar are given here:
http://linguists.bahro.com/domahreh/lessons/
Info from a wiki:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/D%27ni_grammar
Good stuff for beginners:
http://linguists.riedl.org/old/
There is even a forum called D'ni Linguistic Fellowship (NB: the server is
very slow)
http://linguists.bahro.com/forums/index.php
Maybe, one day I will learn it, too...
-- Yitzik
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Message: 25
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:00:38 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A Self-segregating morphology (was: Guinea pigs invited)
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Wow, that's quite cool! And 'ketaberiya' = 'book shop'? :-)
> Very, very nice!
The word is coined according to Farsi pattern "ketâbxâne" (house of books)
meaning 'library'. So "ketaberiya" is 'library'. 'Book shop' in Ajami would
be "màxzàno de ketabos".
> (BTW, I think Turkish has pl. 'kitablar' and Suahili sg.'kitabu' /
> pl. 'vitabu'.)
Farsi dictionary enlists two possible forms: regular "ketâbhâ" and Arabic
"kotub".
-- Yitzik
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