There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: A book report...
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Happy New Year
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: A book report...
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: A book report...
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Happy New Year
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: A book report...
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: OT hominids
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: A book report...
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. InCoCreMo
From: Aaron Morse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: OT hominids
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: A book report...
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: InCoCreMo
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: What is language? (was: OT hominids)
From: Hanuman Zhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: OT: Happy New Year 2006!
From: Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Why grammar is so complex a subject
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Hyperborean (was: A book report...)
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Hyperborean (was: A book report...)
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Hyperborean
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Attic months
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: What is language?
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: What is language? (was: OT hominids)
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Christmas/Holidays
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Hyperborean
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Attic months
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 13:37:14 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A book report...
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 05:00:30 -0500, Jefferson Wilson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> PM Hyperborean, Indian, and artificial languages
That's a word with which I ought to be familiar, but I'm not. My brain
keeps insisting it means either "having many trees" or "above the trees",
neither of which make much sense. In typing this, though, it has become
apparent that it might mean "from beyond the north".
Am I even remotely in the right territory?
Paul
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 19:43:44 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Happy New Year
Hi!
Happy new year to y'all!
**Henrik
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 19:41:45 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A book report...
Quoting Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 05:00:30 -0500, Jefferson Wilson
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > PM Hyperborean, Indian, and artificial languages
>
> That's a word with which I ought to be familiar, but I'm not. My brain
> keeps insisting it means either "having many trees" or "above the trees",
> neither of which make much sense. In typing this, though, it has become
> apparent that it might mean "from beyond the north".
>
> Am I even remotely in the right territory?
The Hyperboreans, according to ancient geographers, were a people living in the
far north, so your last interpretation is probably correct.
Andreas
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 13:43:46 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A book report...
Paul Bennett wrote: (with snips)
> I forgot to brag about my Christmas haul. a 1958 first edition of _The
> Decipherment Of Linear B_ by John
> Chadwick. It's a slimish paperback,
_slimmish_ I suspect. _Slimish_ books are what I found in my damp
basement...
My presents to myself this year were: Collected Poems of James Merrill, and
a bilingual Residencia en la tierra (all 3 in one vol.) by Pablo Neruda.
> Inside, the pages are tanned, but not
> horrifically so, considering it's a nearly 50 year old book. It smells
> wonderful -- that really good "old book" smell that draws you into the
> book and makes you feel immersed in the words. Original sale price: 95c.
Ho ho, I remember this from the first time 'round. It was a stunning report
at the time. I'm surprised a PB has held up so well. Obviously it was
properly stored.
I have a lot of 50-yr old Spanish-lang. PBs from the Colección Austral
(Argentina), very cheap but well-produced editions-- nary a typo ever. They
tended to turn yellow and brittle after a mere 10 years. The bindings
usually gave out after one reading.
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 13:19:46 -0600
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Happy New Year
In Ricadh:
KuVeci ro va aycod'i ewran!
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:17:43 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A book report...
I had a nice linguistic Xmas haul as well - thank you, Amazon.com wish
lists. :) I got Mallory's _In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language,
Archaeology, and Myth_, Boyd-Bowman's _From Latin to Romance in Sound
Charts_, and Keenan's _Breaking out of Beginner's Spanish_ (more of a
personal development thing). Not original editions or autographed or
even hardback, just books I wanted to read and add to my library....
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 13:52:15 -0600
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT hominids
Paul Bennett wrote:
> The last time I read anything about bee communication, bee "dances"
> provided nothing more than bearing and range information to nectar
> sources, in a stereotypical, formulaic way. That's IMO even less like
> language than birdsong -- at least some birdsong is capable of
> expressing more than one notion.
>
> Ants, on the oher hand, seem to communicate via something at least
> potentially approaching the complexity of real language; a combination
> of sign language, touch language and chemical language. As far as I
> know, though, it's even less well understood than bee dances or birdsong.
>
> I'd really like to get up to speed with the latest research on dolphin
> language. It seems they're capable of describing things using sonar
> "pictures", and that they have matrilinear personal names, as well as
> obviously having enough of a language facility to understand
> combinations of sign and vocal language from humans.
I think that in order to qualify as a language comparable to "natural"
human languages, at the very minimum you need to have words that express
what one thing is doing with another thing -- transitive verbs. You also
need some way of naming new things by combining existing elements
("phonemes" or their equivalent) in new combinations, and to be able to
talk about events remote in time and space. It would be interesting if
dolphins or some other kind of social animals had a communication system
with this sort of expressive potential (I wouldn't rule out the
possibility just yet), but as far as I know this set of features is
unique to human language. The ability to talk about future or potential
events seems to be an especially useful one.
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 20:04:31 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A book report...
--- In [email protected], "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I had a nice linguistic Xmas haul as well - thank you, Amazon.com wish
>lists. :) I got Mallory's _In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language,
>Archaeology, and Myth_,...
I'm selling a number of my books on Amazon. I sold the Mallory book
several months ago. I hope it's not too self-serving to mention that
I do have one more language book still unsold. It is Roy Andrew
Miller's "Japanese and the Other Altaic Languages." If anyone is
interested in it, please let me know.
The other books are mainly cook books and books on world religions.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 12:17:16 -0800
From: Aaron Morse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: InCoCreMo
Hey!
I'd just like to point out InCoCreMo (http://incocremo.wordpress.com) to people
on this list.
"InCoCreMo = The International Conlang Creation Month. This was started by
aanimo of the ZBB, the admin of ArtLangs.com, and a conlanging enthusiast.
The rules are fairly simplistic and free. The purpose of InCoCreMo is to give
conlangers starting a new language a purpose to get grammar and vocabulary
created, and translate a fairly large text. It is all for fun, so weâre not
particular about anything â especially since there is no way of validating,
the only reason to participate is to do it, so no point in cheating.
The Rules
1.) Participant must create a vocabulary capable of translating pages 1,2,and
3 (at least) of the Hobbit.
2.) Participant must create a grammar equally capable of said translation
3.) Translation does not have to be done by the end of the month, only a
language capable of translating it."
Aaron Morse
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.
And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
---Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
---------------------------------
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 15:27:06 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT hominids
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 14:52:15 -0500, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think that in order to qualify as a language comparable to "natural"
> human languages, at the very minimum you need to have words that express
> what one thing is doing with another thing -- transitive verbs. You also
> need some way of naming new things by combining existing elements
> ("phonemes" or their equivalent) in new combinations, and to be able to
> talk about events remote in time and space.
I agree.
> It would be interesting if dolphins or some other kind of social animals
> had a communication system with this sort of expressive potential (I
> wouldn't rule out the possibility just yet), but as far as I know this
> set of features is unique to human language.
Unique to human language, but not to humans. Chimps and Gorillas have
enough language facility to learn sign language. I think they have
demonstrated an understanding of simple tenses, and have certainly shown
the ability to coin new words. The example that springs to mind is the
famous Koko, who spontaneously signed "water bird" when asked to identify
a picture of a duck, having never been taught the sign for "duck".
Also of note are the Chimps at the CHCI in Washington. A set of "first
generation" chimps were taught sign language, and they independently
taught the "second generation", without being instructed to do so.
> The ability to talk about future or potential events seems to be an
> especially useful one.
I agree. I think the future tense, and possibly the subjunctive, are forms
that make language about more than just describing the world around you.
Paul
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:07:26 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A book report...
--- caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "Mark J. Reed"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> I'm selling a number of my books on Amazon. I sold
> the Mallory book
> several months ago. I hope it's not too
> self-serving to mention that
> I do have one more language book still unsold. It
> is Roy Andrew
> Miller's "Japanese and the Other Altaic Languages."
> If anyone is
> interested in it, please let me know.
Interesting coincidence. Since retiring from computer
programming, I support myself selling books on Amazon.
Other interesting coincidnece: I sold a copy of "The
Decipherment of Linear B" about an hour ago!
--gary
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:20:36 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: InCoCreMo
Neat Idea!
Here are a couple of my 3 or 4 one-day languages:
http://fiziwig.com/soaloa/mut01.html
http://fiziwig.com/soaloa/twostep.txt
And here's a one-hour language I built:
http://fiziwig.com/soaloa/boring.txt
But this sounds like an interesting challenge.
--gary
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 16:03:02 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
Here's the response re format:
AI EPS PDF JPEG SVG
300dpi jpeg (for 4'x5')
So looks like he can in fact take the SVG, yay.
- Sai
On 1/1/06, taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * Sai Emrys said on 2005-12-30 01:45:46 +0100
> > It's not for me, it's for the flag makers. Those are the programs they
> > use. (They mentioned EPS and AI (?) formats also, in addition to the
> > usual .jpg and .bmp.)
>
> Inkscape can save as .ai, .eps, .ps, .pdf and .epsi too.
>
>
> t.
>
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 15:54:53 +0000
From: Hanuman Zhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What is language? (was: OT hominids)
> Paul Bennett wrote:
> Extremely interesting. My contention is that communication has always
> gone on among sentient beings. At the low level, such communications are
> simple and instinctual.
I knew a company cat named Mz. Jinx. I would meow at her. Try to talk cat.
I swear she would correct me just like a matronly teacher would. I guess my
cat syntax was horribly off.
And sometimes she would be shocked at what I would accidentally meow. She'd
put her paw up to my mouth as to say, "Don't say THAT!"
Cats I think have a lot to say, but rather be contemplative or hunting or
playing...
Another cat named Luc (short for Lucifer) seemed to have the feisty attitude
of a reincarnated outlaw biker.
Seemed to be always saying, "My ancestors ate yours, Monkeyboy! So
feed/pet/groom/play with me meow!"
--
Hanuman Zhang
"Life is all a great joke, but only the brave ever get the point."
- Kenneth Rexroth
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 02:41:22 +0100
From: Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Happy New Year 2006!
Carsten Becker wrote:
> A happy new year 2006 to all of you!
>
> Ein frohes neues Jahr 2006 euch allen!
> Un joli nouvel ans 2006 à vous tous!
>
> Pericyanlei 11B2 ehiro emino vayam-ican!
In French:
Bonne et heureuse année 2006 à tous!
In Shaquelingua (with Umläute instead of macrons):
/be vure rozöçä rata vae-11'B2i sjikö tlivë !/
Where /11'B2i/ = /xöçöfäje'fubaki väpraizari/ but if it was a shaquean
date, I would only say /B2i/ = /väpraizari/ and not mention the century
(of 144 years of course).
Litterally:
May what will happen to you all during 2006 be wished.
(Shaqueans also count in base 12.)
--
==================
Remi Villatel
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
==================
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:19:03 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why grammar is so complex a subject
On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:50, Cian Ross wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 11:35, Gary Shannon wrote:
> > Counter argument: For emerging proto-humans in a
> > rudamentary hunter-gatherer society there are a very
> > limited number of things that need to be discussed,
> > and the ways of putting those things together into a
> > single utterance are mathematically very limited. "Me
> > goat see", "Goat me see", "Me see goat", "Goat see
> > me.", "See goat me.", "See me goat." Which, for
> > reasons of survival, would have to be differentiated
> > in meaning from "Tiger see me.", "See tiger me.", etc.
>
> I'm not quite comfortable with at least one assumption you seem to be
> making here. Why would language even at a very early stage necessarily
> be limited to matters of immediate physical survival? Language doesn't
> seem to be necessary for survival at all: AFAIK humans are the only
> species that use syntactic language as such and while we're very
> successful we're not alone in being successful. I have to wonder if
> language more likely started from interpersonal interactions and then
> later turned "outwards" to deal with other matters?
Most current palaeoanthropology I've read recently regards human language as a
form of grooming. A form that could groom over a distance, furthermore.
It was only after the "conceptual breakthrough" that simultaneously led to the
development of art, that language-as-grooming, language-as-warning, and
language-as-training, and a heap of other functions of homo sapiens language
coalesced.
Wesley Parish
>
>
> Regards,
> Cian Ross
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://crlh.tzo.org/~cian/conlang/
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 10:14:47 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Hyperborean (was: A book report...)
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
>>On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 05:00:30 -0500, Jefferson Wilson
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> PM Hyperborean, Indian, and artificial languages
>>
>>That's a word with which I ought to be familiar, but I'm not. My brain
>>keeps insisting it means either "having many trees" or "above the trees",
>>neither of which make much sense. In typing this, though, it has become
>>apparent that it might mean "from beyond the north".
>>
>>Am I even remotely in the right territory?
>
>
> The Hyperboreans, according to ancient geographers, were a people living in
> the
> far north, so your last interpretation is probably correct.
Certainly correct.
Hyperboreoi (m. pl.) "a people supposed to live in the extreme north".
The noun is found in the works of Homer and of other ancient Greek
writers. It is derived thus:
hyper "above, beyond" + bore- (north, north wind)* + -oi (MASC.PL)
*the noun for 'north' and 'north wind' was _boreas_ (masc.)
In modern times the adjective 'Hyperborean' has been applied to a group
of languages spoken in northeastern Siberia.
--
Ray
==================================
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==================================
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:57:35 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hyperborean (was: A book report...)
R A Brown wrote:
> In modern times the adjective 'Hyperborean' has been applied to a group
> of languages spoken in northeastern Siberia.
Hmm. Aren't they more often called 'Paleosiberian' or 'Paleoasian'?
-- Yitzik
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 14:50:27 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hyperborean
Isaac Penzev wrote:
> R A Brown wrote:
>
>
>
>>In modern times the adjective 'Hyperborean' has been applied to a group
>>of languages spoken in northeastern Siberia.
>
>
> Hmm. Aren't they more often called 'Paleosiberian' or 'Paleoasian'?
I believe so - my source was Mario Pei "The World's Chief Languages",
1949. But the Library of Congress apparently still uses the older term:
PM Hyperborean, Indian, and artificial languages
In the list quoted yesterday by Jefferson Wilson there is no mention of
'Paleosiberian' or 'Paleoasian'
A quick Google on 'hyperborean' will soon show many different latter-day
uses; I guess the terms 'Pal(a)eosiberian' and 'Pal(a)eoasian' have been
adopted to avoid confusion with some of these other uses.
--
Ray
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 10:14:27 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Attic months
I'm creating an alternate world where (even more of) Greek culture
became globally dominant. Unfortunately, as I have mentioned on here
before, my knowledge of Greek is abysmal. So this is more of a
learning exercise than a result-oriented one.
In this world, the dominant calendar is based on the old Greek
lunisolar one, specifically, the Attic/Athenian version. It has
evolved a precise definition much like that of the Chinese calendar in
the real world: the month begins on the date (in Athens) of the
lunisolar conjunction, and the year begins with the first month after
the summer solstice. Whenever there are more than twelve lunations
between summer solstices there is a thirteenth month, which doesn't
get its own name but rather is a doubling of one of the normal twelve,
chosen so as to keep the Sun in the current month's corresponding
zodiac sign all year. The era is that of the first Olympiad.
So far, so good. My problem is the month names: I can only find
transliterated versions in references, but I'm trying to identify the
original Greek-alphabet spelling. (My next task will be to figure
out what they might have turned into in Modern Greek.)
Here's what seems to be the most authoritative version of the names,
along with the corresponding traditional Zodiac sign. Any help
reconstructing the native spelling would be appreciated.
Hekatombaion (Cancer)
Metageitnion (Leo)
Boedromion (Virgo)
Pyanepsion (Libra)
Maimakterion (Scorpio)
Poseideon (Sagittarius)
Gamelion (Capricorn)
Anthesterion (Aquarius)
Elaphebolion (Pisces)
Mounichion (Aries)
Thargelion (Taurus)
Skirophorion (Gemini)
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 16:49:00 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What is language?
Andreas Johansson wrote:
[snip]
> Making individual sounds is the easy part - the tricky one is controling
> breathing so precisely you can chop an outbreath into a long sequence of
> phonemes. Modern humans have a bunch of extra nerves to the breathing
> musculature to faciliate this - early members of our genus, like H. erectus,
> apparently had not, and so presumably were not prone to chattering. Then you
> also need a brain capable of processing all this short sounds more-or-less in
> real time.
I wonder whether that fact the vocal tract had become capable of
producing such a wide range of different sounds did not, in part at
least, act as stimulus to development of extra bunch of nerves & greater
brain power. Just a thought.
> The current best guess seems to be that the physiological and neurological
> prerequisites for human language as we know it today was not in place until
> 200-300k years ago. By this time our lineage was already separate from the
> Neanderthals' - I do not know if parallel changes occured in theirs.
Well, as i have said, i am far from an expert in these matters. But over
the past quarter century there does seem to have been a revaluation of
Neanderthals. In "Pre-Greek Speech on Crete" (1985) I wrote:
"Whether Neanderthal man had developed articulate speech or not is a
debatable question. Anatomically he appears to have been capable of some
form of speech; but there is nothing in his primitive social
organization to indicate that articulate speech was necessary."
The first two sentences still hold true. But I would not write that
third sentence now. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
--
Ray
==================================
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==================================
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 16:57:38 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What is language? (was: OT hominids)
Hanuman Zhang wrote:
>>Paul Bennett wrote:
>
>
>>Extremely interesting. My contention is that communication has always
>>gone on among sentient beings. At the low level, such communications are
>>simple and instinctual.
>
>
> I knew a company cat named Mz. Jinx.....
[etc snipped]
Hanuman's mail reminded that there was a broadcast sometime in the 1950s
on the 'BBC Third Programme' (as it was called then) about the language
of cats. Alas, I remember next to nothing about the broadcast, except
that the presenter claimed that cat verbs had two moods: indicative and
imperative.
See also:
http://www.messybeast.com/cat_talk.htm
--
Ray
==================================
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:35:06 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Christmas/Holidays
--- In [email protected], Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>So what are the holiday greetings in your favorite conlang?
In Senjecan we say:
sâca óngüaþ-züêênüam
holy anointed-birth
The original speakers were a very spiritual people.
sîfa juun-µêtam
prosperous new-year
Suitable for whenever your New Year happens to begin!
These are in the motive case as the direct objects of an implied
verb such as, "I wish you..."
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:38:35 +0100
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hyperborean
Hallo!
Ray Brown wrote:
> Isaac Penzev wrote:
> > R A Brown wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>In modern times the adjective 'Hyperborean' has been applied to a group
> >>of languages spoken in northeastern Siberia.
> >
> >
> > Hmm. Aren't they more often called 'Paleosiberian' or 'Paleoasian'?
>
> I believe so - my source was Mario Pei "The World's Chief Languages",
> 1949. But the Library of Congress apparently still uses the older term:
> PM Hyperborean, Indian, and artificial languages
>
> In the list quoted yesterday by Jefferson Wilson there is no mention of
> 'Paleosiberian' or 'Paleoasian'
>
> A quick Google on 'hyperborean' will soon show many different latter-day
> uses; I guess the terms 'Pal(a)eosiberian' and 'Pal(a)eoasian' have been
> adopted to avoid confusion with some of these other uses.
Yep. Losts of crackpots using this term for all sorts of figments
of their imagination, including some very unpalatable ones.
And northeastern Siberia probably doesn't have the least to do
with the Hyperborea of the ancients at all (where's the friendly
temperate climate and all that?); IMHO, "Hyperborea" refers to
pre-Celtic Britain. Which also means that the term "Hyperborean"
applies better to - Albic ;-) But I will stick to the name "Albic":
it is shorter, it is unambiguous, it is better.
Greetings,
Jörg.
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Message: 25
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:31:59 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Attic months
Mark J. Reed wrote:
[snip]
>
> In this world, the dominant calendar is based on the old Greek
> lunisolar one, specifically, the Attic/Athenian version. It has
> evolved a precise definition much like that of the Chinese calendar in
> the real world: the month begins on the date (in Athens) of the
> lunisolar conjunction, and the year begins with the first month after
> the summer solstice. Whenever there are more than twelve lunations
> between summer solstices there is a thirteenth month, which doesn't
> get its own name but rather is a doubling of one of the normal twelve,
> chosen so as to keep the Sun in the current month's corresponding
> zodiac sign all year. The era is that of the first Olympiad.
Yes - the Greek world generally seems to have used a lunisolar calendar
in which each month began with the new moon, as in Jewish & Muslim
calendars; and, like the Jewish calendar, a 13th lunar month was
intercalated at regular intervals to keep the calendar in line with the
solar year.
It is almost certain that the Greeks inherited this system from the
earlier Minoan civilization, but the Greeks, being Greeks, had to show
their individuality by each city-state doing it their own way. The month
names differed, as did the start of the year. In Athens, as Marks says,
it was the new moon following the summer solstice; but other states
picked the new moon following the winter solstice or one of the
equinoxes :)
[snip]
>
> Here's what seems to be the most authoritative version of the names,
> along with the corresponding traditional Zodiac sign. Any help
> reconstructing the native spelling would be appreciated.
Done - see below:
>
> Hekatombaion (Cancer)
As above, but the final 'o' is long: á¼ÎºÎ±Ïομβαιών /hekatombaj.O:n/
The word is masculine, and has 3rd declension endings. The omega is
retained (i.e. _not_ shortened to omicron) when the endings are added.
In modern Greek such nouns become masculines ending -ώναÏ
All the above applies to the other 11 month names as well :-)
It is the month when hecatombs (offerings of 100 oxen) where made to
Apollo at Athens, Delos and some other places.
> Metageitnion (Leo)
μεÏαγειÏνιών /metage:tniO:n/
The month in which the festival of Ïá½° μεÏαγέιÏνια
(change-neighbor) took
place; this festival was a celebration of emigration.
> Boedromion (Virgo)
βοηδÏομιών /boE:dromiO:n/
The month in which the Ïá½° βοηδÏόμια (the games held in memory of
the aid
given by Theseus against the Amazons) occurred. The name is from the
verb βοηδÏÎ¿Î¼á½³Ï = 'I run to aid [someone]'.
> Pyanepsion (Libra)
This is a late spelling found in Theophrastus; the earlier form found in
Attic inscriptions and other writers was:
ÏÏ
ανοÏιών /pyanopsiO:n/
The month in which the festival of Ïá½° ÏÏ
ανόÏια took place. It was a
festival in honor of Apollo and was apparently derive from ÏÏ
Î±Î½Î¿Ï "bean,
pulse" + the root εÏ- ~ οÏ- "cook". It seems that a dish of beans or
pulses was cooked and offered to Apollo as part of this festival.
> Maimakterion (Scorpio)
μαιμακÏηÏιών /maimaktE:riO:n/
a month named after Zeus Maimaktes; the epithet is derived from the verb
μαιμάÏÏÏ "I quiver with eagerness, rage, storm etc"
> Poseideon (Sagittarius)
ÏοÏιδηÏών /posidE:iO:n/
This was older spelling. In Attic inscriptions of the classical period
it was commonly written ÏοÏιδεών /posideO:n/. Your version is a
transliteration of the later ÏοÏειδεών.
It was Poseidon's month. The Greek forms of the god's name varied from
dialect to dialect.
> Gamelion (Capricorn)
γαμηλιών /gamE:liO:n/
The month takes its name from the adjective Î³Î±Î¼á½µÎ»Î¹Î¿Ï "nuptial,
bridal".
It was apparently a favorite month for weddings.
> Anthesterion (Aquarius)
á¼Î½Î¸ÎµÏÏηÏιών /anthestE:riO:n/
The month in which the festival of Ïá½° á¼Î½Î¸ÎµÏÏá½µÏια took place.
This was a
three-day 'feast of flowers' in honor of Dionysios. The root á¼Î½Î¸Îµ(Ï)- =
"flower".
> Elaphebolion (Pisces)
á¼Î»Î±Ïηβολιών /elaphE:boliO:n/
The month in which the festival of Ïá½° á¼Î»Î±Ïηβόλια took place.
This was a
festival in honor of the goddess Artemis, the 'deer-shooter'
(á¼Î»Î±Ïη-βόλοÏ).
> Mounichion (Aries)
μοÏ
νιÏιών /mo:nikhiO:n/ --> /mu:nikhiO:n/
Probably named after μοÏ
νύÏιοÏ, an epithet of Artemis as patron of
the
harbor at ÎοÏ
νÏ
Ïία in the Piraeus. But the Attic spelling with iota
between the nu and khi, instead of the expected upsilon, is odd.
> Thargelion (Taurus)
θαÏγηλιών /thargE:liO:n/
The month in which the festival of Ïá½° θαÏγήλια was celebrated. This
was
a festival in honor of Apollo and Artemis. The origin of the word
θαÏγήλια, also spelled ÏαÏγήλια, is unknown.
> Skirophorion (Gemini)
ÏκιÏοÏοÏιών /skirophoriO:n/
The month gets its name from the festival of Ïá½° ÏκίÏα held on the 12th
day of the month, in which the women of Athens carried (ÏεÏ- ~ ÏοÏ-
"bear, carry") gifts to honor Athena. The etymology of ÏκίÏα is unknown.
--
Ray
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