There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Interlinears
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Alex Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Alex Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: InCoCreMo
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:59:16 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
Peter Bleackley wrote:
> This idea came up in the discussion of numerals. Below is a set of
> cardinal numbers, with the ordinals formed regularly from them by a
> suffix -ke. Let's take turns proposing sound changes (one at a time
> please) until the ordinals can no longer be regularly formed regularly
> from the cardinals, and indeed form a separate set of roots. Everything
> is in CXS.
(1) Labial harmony: After rounded elements, subsequent vowels become
rounded, unless there is a subsequent velar, which prevents it (cf.
English "what" vs "whack"). Thus:
(I assume the "ao" is two separate vowels. If it's a diphthong, then
20th should remain "naronaoke", 30th "mikonaoke")
Value Cardinal Ordinal
1 iwQ iwake
2 naro naroke
3 miko mikoke
4 toko tokoke
5 ken kenke
6 jasu jasuke
7 Sigu Siguke
8 dZoz2 dZozeke
9 hija hijake
10 nao naoke
11 haro haroke
12 otsu otsuke
13 naomiko naomikoke
20 naronQo naronQoke
21 naronQywQ naronQywake
22 naronQonQro naronQonQroke
30 mikonQo mikonQoke
31 naronQohQro naronQohQroke
32 naronQotsu naronQotsuke
33 mikonQomiko mikonQomikoke
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:24:09 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Interlinears
Quoting Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Paul Bennett wrote:
> > On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 00:14:13 -0500, Tristan McLeay
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> BEWARE! Unicode (UTF-8) characters lurk within!
> >>
> >>> Where's all the outrage from SEA about this?
> >>
> >>
> >> SEA?
> >
> >
> > South East Asia. All them pesky countries that actually *use* furigana
> > / ruby on a presumably often enough basis for it to be part of the
> > HTML standard for the last 4 years (which is a long time in HTML years).
>
> I dunno *they'd* do much with it. AFAIK, all South East Asian languages
> use the Latin alphabet, apart from remote outposts of Chinese (like
> Malaysian Chinese). Eastern Asia, on the other hand ... :)
Khmer, Burman, and Thai are all written in Indic-derived abugidas. The Burman
script is also used to write Mon and varius Karen languages. Some other
minority languages in the area have their own abugidas, notably Cham, which
also has Latin and Arabic orthographies.
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:41:47 -0500
From: "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
caeruleancentaur wrote:
>
> IMO it's a shame so many call it a "slash"! The "\" (popularly
> known as a backslash) has a proper name, too, but I can't
> think of it.
IBM used to call it a "reverse slant" in EBCDIC charts. And
while we're on the subject of IBM, the early PL/I compilers
for the IBM 360 series had built-in support for pounds and
shillings. As I recall, constants of the form 2.5.11 would be
interpreted as two pounds, five shillings, and eleven pence.
I don't recall the keyword for variable declarations, but this
allowed calculations in sterling to be carried out automatically.
(Alas, all my old PL/I manuals are packed away somewhere.)
R.A. Brown wrote:
>
> There were only 12 pence to one shilling. 11/11 is the
> most you can have before you get to 12/- (as it used to be
> written in the good ol' days) unless, of course, you want to
> have ha'pennies & farthings :)
The Guinea has always seemed very odd to me. A coin worth
one pound and one shilling? Sort of like a single coin worth
one dollar and ten cents.
--Ph. D.
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:05:22 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Tristan McLeay wrote:
>> There are recurring mumbles over here about abolishing the penny and
>> rounding everything to the nearest nickel ($0.05)...
>
>
> Just don't let it make you think you'll finally see the end of stupid
> "$29.99" pricing. Instead, they become $29.95 and are just as annoying.
> Y'know, if instead of abolishing the coins we just abolished the
> practice, the coins would practically abolish themselves!
The thing is, there's no law that says you have to take the change given
you. If you don't like pennies, or nickles, or whatever, just leave
them at the register. I've never understood the hostility towards
pennies, though. Like any other denomination of coin, if you use them,
they're not a problem.
Changing $29.99 to $30.00 wouldn't eliminate the use for pennies,
though, thanks to sales tax. Where I live, for example, $30.00 would
come out to $32.26 after tax (ironically, $29.99 would be $32.25, no
need for pennies!)
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:04:55 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Ph.D. wrote:
> The Guinea has always seemed very odd to me. A coin worth
> one pound and one shilling? Sort of like a single coin worth
> one dollar and ten cents.
$1.05 would be a better analogy. :-) It's due to fluctuating values of
gold and silver. Originally, the guinea was a gold coin worth £1
exactly. However, the pound was based on silver, and the relative value
of gold and silver fluctuated, and so the value of the guinea rose and
fell, at one point reaching as high as 30/-. Eventually it stabilized
at 21/-
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:03:16 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
caeruleancentaur wrote:
> With our luck they'll always round up!! The U.S. is no longer
> printing the $2 bill.
Actually, we are. Not every year, but $2 are still printed whenever the
Federal Reserve's stock gets low. The most recent printing was in 2003
and 2004.
Personally, I'd like to see coins of $1, $2, and $5. Maybe even $10.
> There was one in the collection plate a few
> weeks ago that I took for a souvenir. Yes, I put two $1's in for
> it!! :-)>
You can pick them up at any bank. I do that every so often, and then
spend them. Unfortunately, they're rarely given out in change, and
thus, probably end up right back at the bank the day after I spend them.
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:49:09 -0500
From: Alex Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:59:16 +1100, Tristan McLeay
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Peter Bleackley wrote:
>> This idea came up in the discussion of numerals. Below is a set of
>> cardinal numbers, with the ordinals formed regularly from them by a
>> suffix -ke. Let's take turns proposing sound changes (one at a time
>> please) until the ordinals can no longer be regularly formed regularly
>> from the cardinals, and indeed form a separate set of roots. Everything
>> is in CXS.
>
>
>(1) Labial harmony: After rounded elements, subsequent vowels become
>rounded, unless there is a subsequent velar, which prevents it (cf.
>English "what" vs "whack"). Thus:
>
>(I assume the "ao" is two separate vowels. If it's a diphthong, then
>20th should remain "naronaoke", 30th "mikonaoke")
(2) Primary stress is penultimate (unless there's only one vowel). Vowels
under the primary stress shift: non-high vowels rise (/a e 2 Q o/ > /e i y o
u/), while high vowels break (/i y u/ > /j@ H@ w@/).
Value Cardinal Ordinal
1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] iweke
2 nero naruke
3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mikuke
4 tuko tokuke
5 kin kinke
6 jesu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8 dZuz2 dZozike
9 [EMAIL PROTECTED] hijeke
10 neo nauke
11 hero haruke
12 utsu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13 [EMAIL PROTECTED] naomikuke
20 naronoo naronQuke
21 [EMAIL PROTECTED] naronQyweke
22 naronQonoro naronQonQruke
30 mikonoo mikonQuke
31 naronQohoro naronQohQruke
32 naronQutsu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
33 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mikonQomikuke
Alex
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:14:23 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Quoting Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Tristan McLeay wrote:
> >> There are recurring mumbles over here about abolishing the penny and
> >> rounding everything to the nearest nickel ($0.05)...
> >
> >
> > Just don't let it make you think you'll finally see the end of stupid
> > "$29.99" pricing. Instead, they become $29.95 and are just as annoying.
> > Y'know, if instead of abolishing the coins we just abolished the
> > practice, the coins would practically abolish themselves!
>
> The thing is, there's no law that says you have to take the change given
> you. If you don't like pennies, or nickles, or whatever, just leave
> them at the register. I've never understood the hostility towards
> pennies, though. Like any other denomination of coin, if you use them,
> they're not a problem.
>
> Changing $29.99 to $30.00 wouldn't eliminate the use for pennies,
> though, thanks to sales tax. Where I live, for example, $30.00 would
> come out to $32.26 after tax (ironically, $29.99 would be $32.25, no
> need for pennies!)
Here, they set prices so that you get values like 299.50 SEK incl value added
tax. Prices are normally given inclusive of VAT; exceptions include more
expensive household electronics.
Andreas
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:31:21 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Here, they set prices so that you get values like 299.50 SEK incl value added
> tax. Prices are normally given inclusive of VAT; exceptions include more
> expensive household electronics.
I don't think that would work in the US, where every state, and, at
least in some states, every county and city, can set its own sales tax rate.
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:24:29 -0500
From: Alex Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:19:18 -0600, Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Alex Fink wrote:
>> (2) Primary stress is penultimate (unless there's only one vowel). Vowels
>> under the primary stress shift: non-high vowels rise (/a e 2 Q o/ > /e i y o
>> u/), while high vowels break (/i y u/ > /j@ H@ w@/).
>
>*Stressed* Schwa? Wouldn't that be better as /i@/ /y@/ and /u@/? For
>ease of further changes, I'm adding stress markers as well.
Why not? Take the schwas as /3/s if you really want. /j@ H@ w@/ just
'cause they're rising diphthongs, and since elsewhere we've taken two
adjacent vowel symbols /ao/ as two separate syllable nuclei.
>(3) Intervocalic voiceless stops become fricatives (/x/ further develops
>to /h/ and then 0)
Weird that original /h/ sticks around, then.
I think you missed an inervocalic /k/ in the ordinal of 9:
Value Cardinal Ordinal
1 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] i'wee
2 'nero na'rue
3 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] mi'ue
4 'tuo to'ue
5 'kin 'kinke
6 'jesu ja'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
7 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] Si'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
8 'dZuz2 dZo'zie
9 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] hi'jee
10 'neo na'ue
11 'hero ha'rue
12 'utsu ot'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
13 nao'[EMAIL PROTECTED] naomi'ue
20 naro'noo naronQ'ue
21 naronQ'[EMAIL PROTECTED] naronQy'wee
22 naronQo'noro naronQonQ'rue
30 mio'noo mionQ'ue
31 naronQo'horo naronQohQ'rue
32 naronQ'utsu naronQo'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
33 mikonQo'[EMAIL PROTECTED] mionQomi'ue
Alex
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:19:18 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
Alex Fink wrote:
>>(1) Labial harmony: After rounded elements, subsequent vowels become
>>rounded, unless there is a subsequent velar, which prevents it (cf.
>>English "what" vs "whack"). Thus:
>>
>>(I assume the "ao" is two separate vowels. If it's a diphthong, then
>>20th should remain "naronaoke", 30th "mikonaoke")
>
>
> (2) Primary stress is penultimate (unless there's only one vowel). Vowels
> under the primary stress shift: non-high vowels rise (/a e 2 Q o/ > /e i y o
> u/), while high vowels break (/i y u/ > /j@ H@ w@/).
*Stressed* Schwa? Wouldn't that be better as /i@/ /y@/ and /u@/? For
ease of further changes, I'm adding stress markers as well.
(3) Intervocalic voiceless stops become fricatives (/x/ further develops
to /h/ and then 0)
Value Cardinal Ordinal
1 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] i'wee
2 'nero na'rue
3 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] mi'ue
4 'tuo to'ue
5 'kin 'kinke
6 'jesu ja'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
7 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] Si'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
8 'dZuz2 dZo'zie
9 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] hijeke
10 'neo na'ue
11 'hero ha'rue
12 'utsu ot'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
13 nao'[EMAIL PROTECTED] naomi'ue
20 naro'noo naronQ'ue
21 naronQ'[EMAIL PROTECTED] naronQy'wee
22 naronQo'noro naronQonQ'rue
30 mio'noo mionQ'ue
31 naronQo'horo naronQohQ'rue
32 naronQ'utsu naronQo'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
33 mikonQo'[EMAIL PROTECTED] mionQomi'ue
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:36:14 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Charlie wrote:
> Carsten Becker wrote:
>
>>>That's my 2 ct for today,
>
> John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...> wrote:
>
>>"Ct"? Interesting, I've before only seen "c" and "cn"
>>used.
>
> Both "c." and "ct." are correct abbreviations for "cent."
> "Cn." is not.
*sigh* I should have simply written ¤ 0.02 (or rather ¤
0·02?), but even then I guess you guys would be discussing
about the correct place of the currency sign and whether
there should be a space between the sign and the price or
not. I guess some would even report to not be able to see
the C with the two slashes but instead only a rectangle etc.
pp. It seems they forgot to devise an abbreviation for "Euro
Cent" when they introduced the Euro. Herealands you see it
either as <0,02 ¤> or as <2 ct>. I don't know if it was
official, but the consensus was IIRC that you abbreviate
"Pfennig" (0.01 deutschmark) either <Pf> or <Pfg.>. You
didn't get anything for DM 0.01, though, a chewing-gum cost
DM 0.30. It would have been easiest if I had written "my two
cents".
Carsten
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:18:03 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
OK, here's my take on (part of) Peter Bleackley's numbers:
Hope the formatting survives... Assuming penultimate stress in all cases--
1 iwa > i(j)O iwake > Ha?i (H= semivoc.[y] IIRC)
2 naro > naru naroke > ndro?i
3 miko > mi?u mikoke > Ngo?i
4 toko > tu?u tokoke > sko?i (or tsko?i ??)
5 ken > kEn kenke > kiNgi
6 jasu > ezu jasuke > su?i
7 Sigu > Siju Siguke > Sku?i
8 dZoze > ZoZi dZozeke > Zwi?i
9 hija > je hijake > Cja?i (C=ich-laut IIRC)
10 nao > nO naoke > no?i
11 haro > aru haroke > hro?i (vl. r)
12 otsu > os:u otsuke > tsu?i
13 naomiko> mbi?u naomikoke > nONgo?i
20 naronao> nar'nO naronaoke > ndrono?i
I'll see what I can do with the remainder; polysyllabic compound forms need
more thought....
In the meantime, I do believe the ordinal/cardinal relationship has been
sufficiently obscured :-)))))
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:47:57 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: InCoCreMo
I'm in too...it's _really_ isolating (stop the presses! after seeing
my last attempt at a language.). For example, the gloss for "In a
hole in a ground there lived a hobbit." was LOCATION hole INSIDE
ground SEPARATOR exist SEPARATOR DIMINUTIVE person.
On 1/1/06, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Neat Idea!
>
> Here are a couple of my 3 or 4 one-day languages:
> http://fiziwig.com/soaloa/mut01.html
> http://fiziwig.com/soaloa/twostep.txt
>
> And here's a one-hour language I built:
> http://fiziwig.com/soaloa/boring.txt
>
> But this sounds like an interesting challenge.
>
> --gary
>
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:43:40 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Ph.D. wrote:
> R.A. Brown wrote:
> >
> > There were only 12 pence to one shilling. 11/11 is the
> > most you can have before you get to 12/- (as it used to be
> > written in the good ol' days) unless, of course, you want to
> > have ha'pennies & farthings :)
>
> The Guinea has always seemed very odd to me. A coin worth
> one pound and one shilling? Sort of like a single coin worth
> one dollar and ten cents.
>
I spent a couple months in England in the olden days (aack 52 yrs ago!!, the
pound was around $2.80) and was also confused by the guinea, though on my
budget it didn't much matter, and I eventually figured it out. (Is the term
still used? for L 1.10?)
Worst part was figuring 10% tips. Fortunately it wasn't a total mystery, as
my room-mate at school had spent a year in a Brit. public school and (in
spite of that) was a big anglophile, so I'd had a few lessons in how to add
L/s/d, and also knew about bob and quid, and florins and half-crowns. Quite
a charming system, actually :-))) even if those heavy coins wore holes in my
pockets.
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