There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: "Nomad of Norad David C. Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Interlinears
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: / (was: Types of numerals)
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. InCoCreMo
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25. Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:03:31 -0500
From: "Nomad of Norad David C. Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Hi Nik (Nik Taylor), in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Jan 5 you wrote:
> caeruleancentaur wrote:
> > With our luck they'll always round up!! The U.S. is no longer
> > printing the $2 bill.
>
> Actually, we are. Not every year, but $2 are still printed whenever the
> Federal Reserve's stock gets low. The most recent printing was in 2003
> and 2004.
>
> Personally, I'd like to see coins of $1, $2, and $5. Maybe even $10.
Well, there is a dollar coin. Actually, there have been two different
ones in the last decade or two: the Susan B Anthony dollar coin, which
flopped because it was physically the same size as a quarter (and thus
couldn't be differintiated easily by feel when fumbling about for change
in ones pocket), and then its recent replacement, the Sakajuia (sp?)
dollar, which is exactly the same size as the Susan B Anthony!
There used to be a dollar coin that was way bigger. Seems to me it was
the Kennedy dollar. Seems to me there also used to be a half-dollar
coin or some such thing...
> > There was one in the collection plate a few
> > weeks ago that I took for a souvenir. Yes, I put two $1's in for
> > it!! :-)>
>
> You can pick them up at any bank. I do that every so often, and then
> spend them. Unfortunately, they're rarely given out in change, and
> thus, probably end up right back at the bank the day after I spend them.
There's a guy who regularly gets whole batches of $2 bills at the bank,
just so he can hand them out as change to people and see their reaction.
He actually got arrested because some clueless-clown cashier thought they
were funny-money. ("There's no such THING as a two dollar bill! And look
at this! They've all got similar serial numbers! GOTTA be a fake...!")
In the opposite extreme, a few years ago there was a guy who took one of
those novelty "million dollar bill" fake currency things to a bank, found
a teller who hadn't encountered one before, and then he actually took out
a one million dollar account for himself with it, then went out and spent
a bunch of that money before someone else at the bank figured out what
had happened. He went to jail for fraud...
To get this back on topic:
Speaking of "dollar," what other common words could be used in place of
"dollar" as a word for the lowest non-change denomination in a given
culture's currency?
--
Nomad of Norad (David C. Hall) --- *TeamAmiga*
[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://www.joshua-wopr.com/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
For a dementedly wacky sci-fi continue-the-story project,
join my WebBBS. http://www.joshua-wopr.com/phpBB/index.php
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:29:05 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Interlinears
Paul Bennett skrev:
> I know this subject comes up once in a while, but the situation is (I
> imagine) prone to change from time to time, so I'm asking again.
>
> Is there a good way to do interlinears in either MS Word (including
> Macros) or HTML (e.g. what's Rubi support like these days)? I know
> LaTeX can do it, but that's one heck of a learning curve just for one
> feature, and AFAICT Unicode support is pretty spotty, as is non-Unicode
> IPA support. Kura and Shoebox can do it, too, but again it's a bit of
> a learning curve.
I use tables with invisible grid lines.
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:21:05 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
--- In [email protected], "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 1/5/06, caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Just checking to see what Alt-155 will produce on the list message:
>> ¢. It appears correctly on the edit screen and on the preview
>> screen.
>Looks fine here.
How strange that it doesn't look fine in your response!! I never will
understand computers.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:48:45 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Nomad of Norad David C. Hall wrote:
> There used to be a dollar coin that was way bigger. Seems to me it was
> the Kennedy dollar. Seems to me there also used to be a half-dollar
> coin or some such thing...
>
It was the Eisenhower dollar-- silver dollars of any sort were never exactly
common, but nowadays they're downright rare. And it was the Kennedy half.
(and 50c pieces used to be much more common; now I'm amazed when I get one).
> Speaking of "dollar," what other common words could be used in place of
> "dollar" as a word for the lowest non-change denomination in a given
> culture's currency?
>
Well, on Cindu there's the taruna coin (slang truni); the Gwr call it tru
ni; worth somewhat more than a dollar though I don't know the present
exchange rate..... The currency is decimal. "Cent" is kurok (slang kroki) <
kurongo 'hundredth'. There 50kr, 25kr, 10kr, 5kr and 1kr coins called resp.
mekunjo or kronjo (< 'divide'), kroka (< 4), kropot (<10), kronim (<5) and
kromi~krombi (< -mik 'little') or prangi (< 'zinc'). There are also 1 and 2
truni coins, everything above that is paper.
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:48:15 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
On 1/5/06, Nomad of Norad David C. Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Well, there is a dollar coin. Actually, there have been two different
> ones in the last decade or two: the Susan B Anthony dollar coin, which
> flopped because it was physically the same size as a quarter (and thus
> couldn't be differintiated easily by feel when fumbling about for change
> in ones pocket), and then its recent replacement, the Sakajuia (sp?)
> dollar, which is exactly the same size as the Susan B Anthony!
Same diameter, different thickness, different feel to the edges. It
is much easier than the SBA dollar to distinguish by touch. It's
visually distinct by dint of being gold instead of silver.
Oh, and since you asked: it's usually spelled "Sacagawea", properly
pronounced something like /sa,kaga'weja/, but usually mispronounced as
/,s&[EMAIL PROTECTED]@'wi:j@/.
> There used to be a dollar coin that was way bigger. the Kennedy dollar.
The silver dollar. Still used colloquially as a size reference even
though the actual coin is rare. Historically there have been may
different obverses; I'm not sure, but I don't think JFK is one of
them. He does appear on the half-dollar, which is also rare these
days.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 23:17:25 +0200
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
caeruleancentaur wrote:
>John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >"Ct"? Interesting, I've before only seen "c" and "cn" used.
>
>Both "c." and "ct." are correct abbreviations for "cent." "Cn." is not.
Correct for what cents? I've seen "cn" a handful of times here in Finland,
but never "ct".
John Vertical
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 23:24:51 +0200
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: / (was: Types of numerals)
caeruleancentaur wrote:
> >"virgule".
>
>IMO it's a shame so many call it a "slash"!
Shame? Why so? It does its job, and isn't even ambiguous with anything. IMO
"solidus" slightly reeks of eliticism, and I wouldn't have any idea what was
being talked about if someone mentioned "virgule".
John Vertical
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 23:12:56 +0200
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
Nik Taylor wrote:
>
>Tristan McLeay wrote:
> >> There are recurring mumbles over here about abolishing the penny and
> >> rounding everything to the nearest nickel ($0.05)...
> >
> > Just don't let it make you think you'll finally see the end of stupid >
>"$29.99" pricing. Instead, they become $29.95 and are just as annoying.
Not necessarily. We did just that in Finland (abolished the 1 and 2
euro-cent coins) and I think I've seen much less ".9X" prices after that.
XX9.00 prices are still commonplace, tho.
There's a word for this phenomenon in "The Meaning of Liff" but I've only
read the Finnish version...
>I've never understood the hostility towards pennies, though. Like any
>other denomination of coin, if you use them, they're not a problem.
I dunno about hostility, but I can understand the annoyance. Imagine if you
had one-thousandth coins instead; would you agree that minting those would
be a complete waste of material and effort? You'd need dozens before you
could spend them on anything.
Now, with pennies, the only difference is that you'll need a ten times
smaller pile before they're worth anything. A single penny is still
essentially government-produced scrap metal by itself... except maybe to
little children, who might be happy to find one on the ground and be able to
go buy one gummibear.
>Changing $29.99 to $30.00 wouldn't eliminate the use for pennies, though,
>thanks to sales tax. Where I live, for example, $30.00 would come out to
>$32.26 after tax (ironically, $29.99 would be $32.25, no need for pennies!)
Hm, here in Finland all displayed prices include the sales tax, so that
problem doesn't exist.
John Vertical
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:23:27 +0100
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
John Vertical skrev:
> caeruleancentaur wrote:
>
>> John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> >"Ct"? Interesting, I've before only seen "c" and "cn" used.
>>
>> Both "c." and "ct." are correct abbreviations for "cent." "Cn." is not.
>
>
> Correct for what cents? I've seen "cn" a handful of times here in
> Finland, but never "ct".
>
> John Vertical
>
>
Wouldn't "cent" be _sentti_ in Finnish?
BTW are you Finnish or just living there?
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:33:49 -0500
From: Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Hi Roger (Roger Mills), in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Jan 5 you wrote:
> Nomad of Norad David C. Hall wrote:
> > There used to be a dollar coin that was way bigger. Seems to me it was
> > the Kennedy dollar. Seems to me there also used to be a half-dollar
> > coin or some such thing...
> >
> It was the Eisenhower dollar-- silver dollars of any sort were never exactly
> common, but nowadays they're downright rare. And it was the Kennedy half.
> (and 50c pieces used to be much more common; now I'm amazed when I get one).
>
> > Speaking of "dollar," what other common words could be used in place of
> > "dollar" as a word for the lowest non-change denomination in a given
> > culture's currency?
> >
> Well, on Cindu there's the taruna coin (slang truni); the Gwr call it tru
> ni; worth somewhat more than a dollar though I don't know the present
> exchange rate..... The currency is decimal. "Cent" is kurok (slang kroki) <
> kurongo 'hundredth'. There 50kr, 25kr, 10kr, 5kr and 1kr coins called resp.
> mekunjo or kronjo (< 'divide'), kroka (< 4), kropot (<10), kronim (<5) and
> kromi~krombi (< -mik 'little') or prangi (< 'zinc'). There are also 1 and 2
> truni coins, everything above that is paper.
And then, of course, we've got the "euro." Sometimes it's called the
"euro-dollar," even though it's not the same value as a US dollar. I
guess they call it that, imformally, because it serves the same purpose
as the dollar, being the lowest denomination before you go to "small
change."
Another thing that seems a mite peculiar: Most of the coins I've seen
pictured from all over the world tend to be round, or at least round-ISH.
I guess things just sort of evolved that way, where coins started out as
largely round-ish because that's what happens when you press a patterned
image, by hand, onto a glob of molten metal, as they used to do a long
time ago, and they just sorta stayed round over the ages due to inertia.
Now they like round coins because they roll easily once inserted into the
slots of a vending machine.
In fact, I gather the Susan B Anthony dollar was originally supposed to
be a polygonal-shaped thing, to make it obvious by feel in ones pocket,
but the vending-machine makers complained that if the coin was not
going to be truly round, they'd have to redesign their machines... so
the currency people relented, and just added a polygon design onto one
face a regular, round coin.
I *have* noticed that a few space-operas have shown us square and even
rectanguler coins. The original Battlestar Galactica, for instance.
I've actually *got* a set of these "cubits" I bought years ago from a
sci-fi con...
I've also got few little rectangular metal things printed with an image
resembling a dollor bill, or US denominations in general, only without
a specific denomination number marked on them, which some big sweepstakes
outfit used to mail out with their "You might be a winner...!" letters.
You were supposed to use this thing on the included scratch-off to find
out if you'd won something.
Each time one of these letters arrived, I pulled out and kept the thing,
placing them into my "replica coins and made-up coins" collection, with
the thought that someday I might make a very-low-budget short sci-fi
movie and need them as props...
That, and they were neat to look at. :-D
I kind of wish we'd already started moving away from round coins at some
point *before* vending machines became common... Think of all the cool
shapes we coulda had for our coins!
I mean, I could well imagine us having dollor coins that were actually
*shaped* like a dollar bill...
But we're getting way off topic, aren't we...? :-D
--
Nomad of Norad (David C. Hall) --- *TeamAmiga*
[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://www.joshua-wopr.com/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
For a dementedly wacky sci-fi continue-the-story project,
join my WebBBS. http://www.joshua-wopr.com/phpBB/index.php
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:53:50 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
On 1/5/06, Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Another thing that seems a mite peculiar: Most of the coins I've seen
> pictured from all over the world tend to be round, or at least round-ISH.
That's not peculiar, that's by design. Round coins are much harder to
chip tiny bits of (at one time precious) metal off of indetectably.
Especially if there's a ridge on the border to make any such chipping
obvious.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:26:50 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:33:49 -0500, Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In fact, I gather the Susan B Anthony dollar was originally supposed to
> be a polygonal-shaped thing, to make it obvious by feel in ones pocket,
> but the vending-machine makers complained that if the coin was not
> going to be truly round, they'd have to redesign their machines... so
> the currency people relented, and just added a polygon design onto one
> face a regular, round coin.
[snip]
> I kind of wish we'd already started moving away from round coins at some
> point *before* vending machines became common... Think of all the cool
> shapes we coulda had for our coins!
We have septagonal coins in the UK (not one, but two -- to whit: the Crown
and the Double Florin), and vending machines plus all sorts of other
coin-operated devices that work just fine with them. I don't buy the
"vending machine" excuse for one minute. You can phase in support for the
coins between their announcement date and their release date, and even
after the release date.
Paul
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:41:25 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
--- In [email protected], "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Oh, and since you asked: it's usually spelled "Sacagawea", properly
>pronounced something like /sa,kaga'weja/, but usually mispronounced as
>/,s&[EMAIL PROTECTED]@'wi:j@/.
The Wikipedia article on Sacagawea explains the reasons for the
variant spellings and discusses the correct pronunciation. I was
brought up with the spelling Sacajawea & the
pronunciation ,[EMAIL PROTECTED]@'wi:j@
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 00:47:38 +0200
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
Neat stuff. Still, this does nothing to extend the cardinal/ordinal
distinction to other numerals! They'll definitely get messed up too in all
these sound shifts, but it would be unlikely that one series would turn out
resembling the ordinals more than the cardinals, let alone contrasting the
two as equally possible roots.
Of course, we can just derive those later, but where's the fun in that? ;)
Alex Fink wrote:
>Nik Taylor wrote:
> >Alex Fink wrote:
> > > (2) Primary stress is penultimate (unless there's only one vowel).
>Vowels
> > > under the primary stress shift: non-high vowels rise (/a e 2 Q o/ > /e
>i y o
> > > u/), while high vowels break (/i y u/ > /j@ H@ w@/).
> >
> >(3) Intervocalic voiceless stops become fricatives (/x/ further develops
> >to /h/ and then 0)
>
>Weird that original /h/ sticks around, then.
Indeed, better delete them intervocally too.
OK, with lots of adjacent vowels now...
(4) Sequences of adjacent vowels with the same roundedbackness develop into
long vowels. Schwa matches with all series. The vowel is high (or low) iff
all the originals vowels also are, else mid.
And to stop this from being just "big" shifts, I think we should also allow
one "small" (ie. affecting only a few of the words herein) sound shift per
turn:
(4.5) Immediately before stress, /tS dZ/ lenite to /S Z/ unless preceded by
an alveolar continuant.
Value Cardinal Ordinal
1 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] i'we:
2 'nero na'rue
3 'mjo: mi'ue
4 'to: 'to:e
5 'kin 'kinke
6 'jesu ja'swe:
7 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] Si'gwe:
8 'dZuz2 Zo'ze:
9 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] hi'je:
10 'neo na'ue
11 'hero ha'rue
12 'utsu ot'swe:
20 naro'no: naro'no:e
21 naronQ'[EMAIL PROTECTED] naronQy'we:
22 narono:'noro narono:nQ'rue
30 mio'no: mionQ'ue
31 naro'no:ro narono:'rue
32 naro'no:tsu narono:'tswe:
33 miono:'mjo: miono:mi'ue
I also postulate words for 100, 1000 and 10000:
100 'tSifu Se'pwe: (from tSepu tSepuke)
1000 'wegor wa'gurke (from wagor wagorke)
10000 Sun'tSyfu tSuntS2'[EMAIL PROTECTED] (from tSuntSepu tSuntSepuke )
These do not compound with each other or smaller numerals, so there's no
need to individually process thru numbers larger than 100.
Still needs to somehow perturb the still somewhat regular -e ending of the
ordinals and the matching initial consonants. And all those medial glides
can't be healthy either...
John Vertical
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:33:33 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
--- In [email protected], John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
caeruleancentaur wrote:
>John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >"Ct"? Interesting, I've before only seen "c" and "cn" used.
>
>Both "c." and "ct." are correct abbreviations for "cent." "Cn." is
not.
Correct for what cents? I've seen "cn" a handful of times here in
Finland,
but never "ct".
John Vertical
--- End forwarded message ---
Silly me! When Carsten used the expression "my 2 cts. worth" I
assumed he was talking about American currency. It is an expression
used frequently in the U.S. and I wasn't aware that the "cent" was
Finnish currency. I only know markka and penni. Therefore, I chose
to explain the abbreviations as we use them here in the U.S. That
is a lesson well-learned by me. The next time someone refers to
what I assume to be an American topic, I'll check to see what is
done in Finland before I expound on it. For those who are
interested, the source of my (mis)information is the American
Heritage Dictionary. "cn." is not given as an abbreviation for
anything in English.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:01:13 -0600
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
The only natlang I can think of with two entirely different sets of roots is
Japanese. The different sets of roots don't carry the cardinal-ordinal
distinction, but it *is* the only natlang I know about that has two
unrelated sets of roots in the first place.
For those of you unfamiliar with Japanese: one set of roots is borrowed
from various dialects of Chinese. These roots are combined with suffixes in
order to count objects -- the suffixes change based on the shape of the
object being counted. Therefore:
"nihon" = two long, thin objects (pens, trees, neckties);
"nimai" = two thin, flat objects (pieces of paper, tickets, etc.);
"nisatsu" = two volumes (books, newspapers, magazines).
The second set of roots is a native Japanese set, holdovers from before the
Chinese equivalents were borrowed. These words describe objects that don't
fit into any appropriate shape categories.
Do any other natlangs do anything "bizarre" like (or unlike) that?
>From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
>Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 00:47:38 +0200
>
>Neat stuff. Still, this does nothing to extend the cardinal/ordinal
>distinction to other numerals! They'll definitely get messed up too in all
>these sound shifts, but it would be unlikely that one series would turn out
>resembling the ordinals more than the cardinals, let alone contrasting the
>two as equally possible roots.
>
>Of course, we can just derive those later, but where's the fun in that? ;)
>
>
>Alex Fink wrote:
>>Nik Taylor wrote:
>> >Alex Fink wrote:
>> > > (2) Primary stress is penultimate (unless there's only one vowel).
>>Vowels
>> > > under the primary stress shift: non-high vowels rise (/a e 2 Q o/ >
>>/e i y o
>> > > u/), while high vowels break (/i y u/ > /j@ H@ w@/).
>> >
>> >(3) Intervocalic voiceless stops become fricatives (/x/ further develops
>> >to /h/ and then 0)
>>
>>Weird that original /h/ sticks around, then.
>
>Indeed, better delete them intervocally too.
>
>OK, with lots of adjacent vowels now...
>(4) Sequences of adjacent vowels with the same roundedbackness develop into
>long vowels. Schwa matches with all series. The vowel is high (or low) iff
>all the originals vowels also are, else mid.
>
>And to stop this from being just "big" shifts, I think we should also allow
>one "small" (ie. affecting only a few of the words herein) sound shift per
>turn:
>(4.5) Immediately before stress, /tS dZ/ lenite to /S Z/ unless preceded by
>an alveolar continuant.
>
>Value Cardinal Ordinal
>1 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] i'we:
>2 'nero na'rue
>3 'mjo: mi'ue
>4 'to: 'to:e
>5 'kin 'kinke
>6 'jesu ja'swe:
>7 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] Si'gwe:
>8 'dZuz2 Zo'ze:
>9 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] hi'je:
>10 'neo na'ue
>11 'hero ha'rue
>12 'utsu ot'swe:
>20 naro'no: naro'no:e
>21 naronQ'[EMAIL PROTECTED] naronQy'we:
>22 narono:'noro narono:nQ'rue
>30 mio'no: mionQ'ue
>31 naro'no:ro narono:'rue
>32 naro'no:tsu narono:'tswe:
>33 miono:'mjo: miono:mi'ue
>
>I also postulate words for 100, 1000 and 10000:
>100 'tSifu Se'pwe: (from tSepu tSepuke)
>1000 'wegor wa'gurke (from wagor wagorke)
>10000 Sun'tSyfu tSuntS2'[EMAIL PROTECTED] (from tSuntSepu tSuntSepuke )
>
>These do not compound with each other or smaller numerals, so there's no
>need to individually process thru numbers larger than 100.
>
>Still needs to somehow perturb the still somewhat regular -e ending of the
>ordinals and the matching initial consonants. And all those medial glides
>can't be healthy either...
>
>John Vertical
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:10:45 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:01:13 -0500, Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> "nihon" = two long, thin objects (pens, trees, neckties);
> "nimai" = two thin, flat objects (pieces of paper, tickets, etc.);
> "nisatsu" = two volumes (books, newspapers, magazines).
> Do any other natlangs do anything "bizarre" like (or unlike) that?
Well, English counts "loaves" of bread, "head" of livestock, and so on.
It's just not native intuition that the count word compounds to the number
word, but I suspect it bonds quite (if not very) tightly to it, probably
as closely as a clitic if not a compound.
Paul
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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 01:15:55 +0200
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
Arthaey Angosii wrote:
>
>Emaelivpeith Rodlox R:
> > So I'm here to ask\beg all of you -- is there a website that shows the
> > X-Sampa (or C-Sampa or whichever letter it is for conlangs) and lets us
> > listen to how it sounds? *curious*
>
>I don't know about anything specifically dealing with X-Sampa or CXS,
>but there are several sites out there with sound samples for the IPA
>itself.
>
>One is: http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/
>
>HTH.
Ugh, they have two different people pronouncing them ... making especially
the vowels difficult to compare to each another. And I think I hear a few
mispronounciations in there too - at least the three other sites I know
agree better with each another than this.
(Hmm, I can't find the links at the moment... I'll return to the subject
later.)
John Vertical
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:22:10 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
Chris Peters wrote:
> For those of you unfamiliar with Japanese: one set of roots is borrowed
> from various dialects of Chinese. These roots are combined with suffixes
> in
> order to count objects -- the suffixes change based on the shape of the
> object being counted. Therefore:
>
> "nihon" = two long, thin objects (pens, trees, neckties);
> "nimai" = two thin, flat objects (pieces of paper, tickets, etc.);
> "nisatsu" = two volumes (books, newspapers, magazines).
I assume that -hon, -mai, -satsu etc. have meanings ??
This is not unlike the Indonesian/Malay system (and I think widespread in
Asia). Only the words with se- 'one' are written as one word:
se/ekor (tail) animals
se/lembar (cloth) flat, sheet-like things
se/buah (fruit) round things in genl; also, generic for almost everything
nowadays (houses, cars...)
Older grammars (and related languages) have many more, but I suspect modern
urbanized Indonesians are giving up the system. (If I can find my old XIX C.
grammar of Buginese, I'll cite them... one curiosity in that lang.,
water-buffalo (but not other animals) are classified with _aju_ 'wood'.)
I'm also recalling a lang. of Timor (?) that has two number systems, one of
uncertain origin-- will hunt for that.
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:30:59 -0600
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
>From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>I assume that -hon, -mai, -satsu etc. have meanings ??
>
You assume correctly. In this case the meanings are exactly that: the
shape of the objects they're counting.
The kanji that represent those suffixes can probably be detached from the
number and used as independent words. I know "hon" can be -- but the
additional meanings for that kanji don't really have much to do with the
shape of the object it represents as a counting suffix.
:Chris
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:53:47 -0800
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
--- Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chris Peters wrote:
>
> > For those of you unfamiliar with Japanese: one
> set of roots is borrowed
> > from various dialects of Chinese. These roots are
> combined with suffixes
> > in
> > order to count objects -- the suffixes change
> based on the shape of the
> > object being counted. Therefore:
> >
> > "nihon" = two long, thin objects (pens, trees,
> neckties);
> > "nimai" = two thin, flat objects (pieces of paper,
> tickets, etc.);
> > "nisatsu" = two volumes (books, newspapers,
> magazines).
>
> I assume that -hon, -mai, -satsu etc. have meanings
> ??
>
> This is not unlike the Indonesian/Malay system (and
> I think widespread in
> Asia). Only the words with se- 'one' are written as
> one word:
>
Chinese, of course, does the same thing. I lived in
Taiwan for three years and only learned a handfull of
the multitude of classifiers. I won't bother to
include tone marks.
yi wei -- the polite way to count people
yi ge -- the less polite way used with poeple
younger, lower in a hierarchy and generally when
politness is discarded
yi zi -- used for things like pens and pencils
yi ko -- used for coins, buttons, etc.
yi tou -- used for cows (and other large animals?)
yi zi -- (different character, but I believe same tone
as above) used for dogs (and other smaller animals)
yi ben -- used for books
yi liang -- used for cars (and some other vihicles,
but not bicycles IIRC)
yi tiao -- used for long (flexible) things
Wow. I can't believe that many resurfaced. There
were dozens more that I never learned, and I often
fell back on the "if you can't remember just use "ge"
principle expected in "foreigner-speak".
Adam
Jin xividjilud djal suñu ed falud ul Jozevu pomu instanchid ul andjelu djul
Dominu sivi, ed idavi achibid jun al su sposa. Ed nun aved cuñuxud ad sivi
ancha nadud jan ad ul sua huiju primodjindu ed cuamad il su numi ul Jezu.
Machu 1:24-25
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Message: 22
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:19:50 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall wrote:
> Another thing that seems a mite peculiar: Most of the coins I've seen
> pictured from all over the world tend to be round, or at least round-ISH.
> I guess things just sort of evolved that way, where coins started out as
> largely round-ish because that's what happens when you press a patterned
> image, by hand, onto a glob of molten metal, as they used to do a long
> time ago, and they just sorta stayed round over the ages due to inertia.
> Now they like round coins because they roll easily once inserted into the
> slots of a vending machine.
The Australian 50c coin is 12-sided (I think, don't have one on me right
now because I've been putting them into the vending machines on board
trams to by tickets with!). I think the reason is because when we first
decimalised they were round, but (a) inflation meant they had too much
silver in them for their value and (b) they were often confused with 20c
coins. I'm a little confused about that point, because it's my
understanding that a 50c coin was physically the size of a crown=5/- and
a 20c coin was physically the size of a florin=2/-, so unless crowns and
florins weren't popular but the replacement 20 and 50 c coins were, I
dunno. Anyway, they took them out of circulation for a few years, and
when they brought them back in, they were a different shape.
--
Tristan
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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 03:53:24 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
Hi!
Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> The only natlang I can think of with two entirely different sets of
> roots is Japanese. The different sets of roots don't carry the
> cardinal-ordinal distinction, but it *is* the only natlang I know
> about that has two unrelated sets of roots in the first place.
Korean. It also has a native + a Chinese (or better 'Sino-Korean') set.
What I found particularly funny was that Korean uses both systems for
specifying the time: native Korean for hours, Sino-Korean for minutes.
I would not be surprised to find similar systems in other Asian langs
that borrowed from Chinese. Japanese is not unique in this respect.
**Henrik
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:29:32 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: InCoCreMo
I'm working on the International Conlang Creation Month (
http://incocremo.wordpress.com/ ), which was previously covered here
on the list.
I'm going isolated on this one (yes, if you've seen my posts, this is
a shock.) because it's easier and I'm lazy :). If you want to see my
progress so far, go to http://eosp.wordpress.com/ .
Enjoy!
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Message: 25
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 03:58:51 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: can we hear X-Sampa?
Hi!
John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Arthaey Angosii wrote:
> >
> >Emaelivpeith Rodlox R:
> > > So I'm here to ask\beg all of you -- is there a website that shows the
> > > X-Sampa (or C-Sampa or whichever letter it is for conlangs) and lets us
> > > listen to how it sounds? *curious*
> >
> >I don't know about anything specifically dealing with X-Sampa or CXS,
> >but there are several sites out there with sound samples for the IPA
> >itself.
> >
> >One is: http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/
> >
> >HTH.
>
> Ugh, they have two different people pronouncing them ... making
> especially the vowels difficult to compare to each another. And I
> think I hear a few mispronounciations in there too - at least the
> three other sites I know agree better with each another than this.
Yes, the vowels in particular are strange. At least the German ones.
But then, vowels are complex beasts due to the freedom of the tongue.
**Henrik
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