There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Shreyas Sampat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: coins and currency -- penny, denarius, solidus, soldier, as --
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. OT: Unicode 5.0
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Gwr sound changes
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. OT:Monetary Display (was: Types of numerals)
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: OT: Unicode 5.0
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: OT: Unicode 5.0
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: OT: Unicode 5.0
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. OT: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Michael Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Relay 12, The Lost Relay: Reconstruction
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Missing relays
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Missing relays
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Conlang Wiki
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: OT coins and currency
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: OT coins and currency
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 22:29:53 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
wayne chevrier wrote at 2006-01-08 21:47:15 (+0000)
> Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> nevesht:
> >
> >Hi Nik (Nik Taylor), in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Jan 7 you
> >wrote:
> >
> > > Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall wrote:
> > > > I haven't laid eyes on these Japanese coins, though. Somebody got a
> > > > URL providing pictures?
> > >
> > > Here's a couple
> > > Rectangular 2-shu http://www.lioncoins.com/jpegs/2shumkn.jpg - .980
> >Silver
> > >
> > > Oblong Koban http://www.lioncoins.com/jpegs/shotkk.jpg (gold/silver
> >alloy)
> >
> >Cool! Are there any 20th or 21st Century coins akin to that?
> >
> >--
> The Tonga Pa'anga has been issued in a rectangular form, some Chinese
> NCLT(noncurculating legal tender(id est made for collectors) coins are as
> well, and the East Carribean States issued gilded silver copies of their
> banknotes.
> Other unusual coins include a set of coin issued by three Pacific island
> countries that were a third part of a ring, two countries issued a set of
> two that fit together into a circle like puzzle pieces, and the Cook Islands
> has a triangular coin.
>
There's the Indian 5 paise coin (discontinued in 1994), which was
square.
http://128.192.145.172/foreign15/76in5p.jpg
(actually, the one I have looks like #19 on this page
http://www.worldcoingallery.com/countries/India_all4.html )
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 17:33:58 -0500
From: Shreyas Sampat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Ph.D. wrote:
>You'd have to see the new twenty-dollar note. They
>added a slight pink background in the middle of the
>front of the note changing to light green at the left and
>right with a light picture of an eagle and the words
>"TWENTY USA" in blue. The colors are very light,
>and the effect is just to clutter up the note. On the back,
>they added a random pattern of "20"s in 6 pt. in some
>kind of urine yellow color. It's really ugly.
>
>--Ph. D.
>
Yeah, I think this has more to do with the color-addition *being very
ugly* than it does with the addition of color. The pink gradient isn't
that bad, I hardly notice it anymore, but the random number pattern is
basically hideous.
--
The "Million Style Manual" is a set of sixty-four jade stones marked
with pieces of Chinese characters. It expresses the kung fu of the void,
as taught by P'an Ku's axe.
Shreyas Sampat
http://njyar.blogspot.com
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 22:46:14 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency -- penny, denarius, solidus, soldier, as --
In response to Nik Taylor's latest message and Tristan McLeay's
latest message, in addition to others on this and related threads
that have mentioned "inflation";
The penny was abbreviated "d" in English currency before
decimalization, because "d" stood for "denarius". In Christ's time,
a "denarius" was about a day's wage.
The denarius was originally a silver-containing coin worth 10 asses
(211 BCE, Republic); its name comes from words meaning "containing
ten". But the as was devalued faster than the denarius, which
eventually came to be worth 16 asses.
The value of the denarius, as well as its silver content and its
total weight, were gradually reduced. In the middle of the 3rd
century CE, under Caracalla if I am not mistaken, it was replaced as
the lowest-value coin by the antonianus.
Wikipedia says "The lasting legacy of the denarius can be seen in the
use of "d" as the abbreviation for the old French denier and the
British penny prior to 1971. The denarius also survives in the common
Arabic name for a currency unit, the dinar ÏíäÇÑ, used from pre-
Islamic times, and still used in several modern Arabic-speaking
nations. The Spanish word dinero (money) is also derived from
Latin "denarius""
The as itself was originally introduced (280 BCE, Republic) as 12
ounces of bronze; there were coins worth fractions of an as down to
1/12 (an ounce). According to Wikipedia, there were;
fractions, the bes (2/3), semis (1/2), quincunx (5/12), triens (1/3),
quadrans (1/4), sextans (1/6), uncia (1/12, also a common weight
unit), and semuncia (1/24);
and multiples, the dupondius (2), tressis (3), quadrussis (4),
quinquessis (5), and denarius (10).
In 23 BCE Augustus reformed the coinage; the as had been so devalued
that it was the smallest coin produced. It was pure copper (red),
but some of its smaller multiples were "orichalcum" (an alloy of
copper containing gold, and "golden"-in-color.)
The as remained the lowest valued coin until the 3rd century CE. As
its value declined, it was produced less and less frequently, until
it had ceased to be produced by the time Marcus Aurelius succeeded to
the purple.
Constantine I ("the Great") in 309 or 310 CE introduced the solidus,
a gold-containing coin worth 1/72 of a (Roman) pound of gold. It was
used until the 10th century CE and both its weight and its gold-
content remained nearly constant during that time. The Empire began
to pay its soldiers in solidi; hence they became known by terms
cognate with "soldier".
By the 1200s CE the solidus was changed to a silver coin instead of a
gold coin. By the 1700s CE it was changed to a copper coin instead
of a silver coin. During this time it was worth 12 to 15 deniers in
France, so it was worth about 1/20 of a "pound" (whatever the heck
a "pound" was in the region involved.
In England, for instance, a solidus == a shilling was worth 12
denarii == 12 pennies, and worth a twentieth of a livre=pound (of
silver).
In 1803 France decimalized its currency (part of the metrication
begun in the 1790s as part of the Revolutionary program), and the
solidus (now the sou) came to be worth 1/20 of a franc, that is, 5
centimes.
So consider that 5 English pounds sterling was recently worth 1000
francs; a sou wasn't worth much then.
----
Historically, then, we could expect that a coin such as the
Krugerrand, or the American double-eagle, or any such, would by a
process of debasement and inflation over the centuries eventually
come to be worth about one hundredth of a modern American cent. In
around two thousand years, it would have been eclipsed, then its
successor would have been eclipsed, then that successor would also
have been eclipsed; "paper money" would eventually approach face
value; in fact, printing a dollar will soon be a waste of paper,
since the linen-rag paper it's printed on will be worth more than a
dollar.
----
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 22:51:11 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
--- In [email protected], Thomas Hart Chappell
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>"To decimate smthng" means "to reduce smthng by removing one-tenth
>of it".
>From my experience, both using & hearing, the connotative meaning
has outdistanced the denotative. The AHD lists the connotative
first: "To destroy or kill a large part of;" then the
denotative: "To select by lot and kill one in every ten of." In
talking about numbers, I don't believe anyone would put "decimate"
in the same verb category as "halve."
When I was in the Peace Corps in Honduras I learned that their
monetary unit was the lempira (containing 100 centavos) which was
named after an Indian leader who resisted the Spanish. IIRC, his
picture was on at least one of the denominations.
I'm surprised that in this discussion no one has mentioned the stone
money of Yap. Definitely not pocket change! BTW, they're not
making any more of it. I find it very interesting & wonder how it
came about on the island, but, so far as I know, nowhere else.
Some may be aware that some Americans call foreign currency "funny
money." I should think that this is because of all the colors &
sizes when compared to the American same-size, same-color bills.
Reminds one of monopoly money. When handling money a lot, one
becomes acquainted with the designs of the bills, so different
colors are not necessary. I can spot a $20-bill in the collection
basket without having to unroll it! And why do people feel a need
to roll up & fold their bills before dropping them in the basket???
Senjecan has a suffix "-pelis" which can be added to an ordinal
number to make a multiplicative adj./adv. (du, two; dupêlis, double;
dupélvi, doubly), or "-pêla" to form the corresponding verb (to
double).
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 17:58:42 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Unicode 5.0
Am I alone in being rather excited by Unicode 5.0?
In particular, I'm personally excited by Latin Extended-C & -D on the BMP,
and Cuneiform on the SMP. Looking around the SMP Roadmap, I was also quite
entertained by the discussion of color as a unit of meaning rather than a
type of formatting, as found in the Basic Egyptian Heiroglyphs proposal.
They weasel their way around it in typical "once, always and evermore
infallible" fashion by recommending a pair of zero width bracketting
characters to surround red text, and leaving the rendering of text thus
marked as undefined user agent behavior, which kinda renewed my faith in
human nature.
Anyway, my point is this: if you haven't nosed around the Unicode home
page in a while, you might find it repays a second look. They've really
come a long way.
Paul
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:11:44 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Gwr sound changes
(to Conlang and Conculture)
OMG. Well I mentioned dreary winter days, didn't I, and there have been a
few... the first part of this is now up on my website as a .pdf.
http://cinduworld.tripod.com/gwr_soundchange.pdf
If anyone can plow their way thru it, I'd be glad to hear of any omissions,
inconsistencies, downright weirdness etc.
Me brain hurts, and final-stress CVCV, and initial- and final-stress CVCVC
are still to be dealt with.
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:10:34 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 17:51:11 -0500, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Some may be aware that some Americans call foreign currency "funny
> money." I should think that this is because of all the colors &
> sizes when compared to the American same-size, same-color bills.
> Reminds one of monopoly money. When handling money a lot, one
> becomes acquainted with the designs of the bills, so different
> colors are not necessary. I can spot a $20-bill in the collection
> basket without having to unroll it!
Ah, but suppose you lost, say, 75% of your current eyesight. Wouldn't it
be harder to recognise a current $20 bill, and easier to recognise one
that was larger, and (for instance) purple?
> And why do people feel a need
> to roll up & fold their bills before dropping them in the basket???
Modesty?
Paul
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 16:18:17 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT:Monetary Display (was: Types of numerals)
caeruleancentaur wrote:
> Some may be aware that some Americans call foreign currency "funny
> money." I should think that this is because of all the colors &
> sizes when compared to the American same-size, same-color bills.
> Reminds one of monopoly money. When handling money a lot, one
> becomes acquainted with the designs of the bills, so different
> colors are not necessary. I can spot a $20-bill in the collection
> basket without having to unroll it! And why do people feel a need
> to roll up & fold their bills before dropping them in the basket???
Because of the biblical and cultural prohibition against making a
display of prayer or "good works." At the offering basket level
it's silly, but all customs have silly aspects and that doesn't
mean the underlying reason is silly.
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/myths/
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:07:49 -0600
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Unicode 5.0
Paul Bennett wrote:
> Am I alone in being rather excited by Unicode 5.0?
>
> In particular, I'm personally excited by Latin Extended-C & -D on the
> BMP, and Cuneiform on the SMP. Looking around the SMP Roadmap, I was
> also quite entertained by the discussion of color as a unit of meaning
> rather than a type of formatting, as found in the Basic Egyptian
> Heiroglyphs proposal. They weasel their way around it in typical "once,
> always and evermore infallible" fashion by recommending a pair of zero
> width bracketting characters to surround red text, and leaving the
> rendering of text thus marked as undefined user agent behavior, which
> kinda renewed my faith in human nature.
>
> Anyway, my point is this: if you haven't nosed around the Unicode home
> page in a while, you might find it repays a second look. They've really
> come a long way.
Hmm.... I can't seem to find the specifics about what's new in 5.0. What
sorts of characters are included in Latin Extended C & D?
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 01:36:46 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Unicode 5.0
Hi!
Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Am I alone in being rather excited by Unicode 5.0?
No, I've also checked a lot of the proposals for 5.0, and was
impressed by the big step they're taking.
When is it due?
A good suggestion -- I should check the Extended-C & D you mention,
I think I missed those until now.
**Henrik
--
Relay 13:
http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:11:02 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Forgot to include the list.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Jan 8, 2006 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Theory] Types of numerals
To: Tom Chappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> English also has the verbs "to half (smthng)" and "to
> quarter (smthng)" and "to decimate (smthng)".
Actually, "half" isn't a verb; you can't "half" something, but you can
"halve" it.
> Nevertheless, English (and other languages -- one of
> the classical languages contributed the English prefix
> "ambi-" meaning "both") has a special word for "all
> two of", and apparently English users have or had a
> "felt need" for a word for "all three of". I think
> for "smallish" N, the concepts in this series might be
> individually lexicalized; with the probable system
> being that, the higher N is, the likelier the word is
> to be regular and transparent (if it exists at all).
Makes sense to me... I just also understand the relative lack of such words.
> > Speaking of which: why do you not consider "pi"
> > to be a numeral in the linguistic sense?
>
> But I do consider "pi" to be a "linguistic numeral".
OK, I misunderstood.
> I don't know what I said to give you the idea I don't,
This:
> I do not know of any natlang which has words for either of these two
numbers, nor for any irrational number;
If pi is a linguistic numeral, then what is it if not a word for an
irrational number?
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:09:22 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Unicode 5.0
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 19:07:49 -0500, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Paul Bennett wrote:
>> Am I alone in being rather excited by Unicode 5.0?
>> In particular, I'm personally excited by Latin Extended-C & -D on the
>> BMP, and Cuneiform on the SMP.
>
> Hmm.... I can't seem to find the specifics about what's new in 5.0.
See the Roadmaps at http://www.unicode.org/roadmaps/
> What sorts of characters are included in Latin Extended C & D?
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 19:36:46 -0500, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> When is it due?
I have no earthly idea. The closest thing I can get to a firm date is the
following cryptic line:
Target Dates (completion):
PDAM: 2006-02-15, FPDAM: 2006-09-15, FDAM 2007-02
Whether this means an announcement in a few weeks, a little over a year,
or something in between is a question to take up with your local ISO
representative. You might be better then me at deciphering
http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/ though.
> A good suggestion -- I should check the Extended-C & D you mention,
> I think I missed those until now.
In Latin Extended-C and Latin Extended-D are going to have a lot of
medievalist and related glyphs (including a whole bunch of insular
characters, and plenty of ligatures and abbreviations), as well as a
selection of characters for some South American and African languages.
The PDFs are at http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n2847.pdf and
http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2957.pdf
The PDF for Cuneiform is at http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n2664.pdf
Paul
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:00:46 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Ph.D. wrote:
> Tristan McLeay wrote:
>
>>Nik Taylor wrote:
>>
>>>of coins (and keep in mind that $.25 is the largest
>>>common coin in the US). Not to mention ridiculously
>>>large numbers of low-denomination bills like 1's and 5's.
>>>I try to avoid having more than 4 pennies ($.01), 1 nickle
>>>($.05), 2 dimes ($.10) or 3 quarters ($.25), likewise,
>>
>>Does anyone know why American coins have names? It's
>>always struck me as very odd.
>
>
> Why odd? They're easier to say in conversation. What would
> you call them? (Note that penny and nickel are not official
> terms.)
Because I'm not used to them, mostly, I'm sure. I would just refer to
them in much the same way you talk of notes: "a twenty cent coin", "a
dollar coin", "a twenty dollar note", "a hundred dollar note". I don't
really see how often I'm going to be talking about the coins though, if
I lose fifty cents does it matter if I say "I thought I had a crown" or
"I thought I had two florins and a bob" (using as the coin names the
equivalent pre-decimal terms).
> That's essentially the reason the government gives for not
> having colored bills. If people barely glanced at them, it would
> be easier to pass counterfiets. In reality, it's easy to see the
> large numbers in the corners of each note. I can count through
> a stack of US bills very quickly.
Or, they could make it difficult to counterfeit them by (e.g.) making
them plastic. Anyone can run paper through a printer and make something
passable-offable for real money at a glance, it's a lot harder to make
polymer notes with the transparent windows.
--
Tristan.
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:41:15 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
tomhchappell wrote:
> As far as minimizing the [number of coins] (not the number of types
> of coins) you have to get and/or give in change, and keep carrying
> around in your pocket-or-whatever (not the number in existence),
>
> the optimum ratio is either 3 or 4. That is, each coin (or
> denomination of note) is either 3 or 4 of the next lower, and either
> one-third or one-fourth of the next higher.
Wouldn't two be better at that?
>
> So, 1, 3, 9, 27, 81, 243, 729 ... is a good series;
> 1, 4, 16, 64, 256, 1024, 4096 ... is a good series;
> 1, 3, 12, 36, 144, 432, 1728 ... is a good series;
> 1, 4, 12, 48, 144, 576, 1728 ... is a good series.
>
> ----
>
> A base for a number system has extra conveniences if it has many
> factors. Defining, for the moment, a "good base" to mean "a number
> that has at least as many factors as any smaller number", we get the
> following "good bases";
> 2 factors: 2, 3
> 3 factors: 4
> 4 factors: 6, 8, 10
> 6 factors: 12, 18, 20
> 8 factors: 24, 30
> 9 factors: 36
> 10 factors: 48
> 12 factors: 60, 72, 84, 90, 96, 108
> 16 factors: 120, 168
>
> and so on.
>
> Natlangs, and ordinary uneducated people, aren't likely to use bases
> greater than about 40 (in spite of the Mesopotamian/Egyptian/Greek
> scholars' fondness for base 60).
>
> Besides, the base 12 -- a "good base" -- fits neatly with the third
> and fourth example series I wrote towards the beginning of this reply.
>
> So, I plan to use base 12.
> I might use something like:
> 1 "knuckle" or "joint"
> 3 knuckles = 1 "finger" or "digit"
> 12 knuckles = 4 fingers = 1 "hand"
> 36
> 144
> 432
> 1728
> ... etc.
>
> Or, since I'd rather have the higher factor used first, I could use
> the series
> 1
> 4
> 12
> 48
> 144
> 576
> 1728
> ... etc.
> but then I don't know what I'd name them.
1, 3, 6, 12, 36, 72, 144, etc. (or 1, 2, 4, 12, 24, 48, 144) would work
better at minimizing the number of coins needed. The number of coins
needed for values of 0-11* in the four different systems (adding binary
- 1, 2, 4, 8, etc.) for further comparison):
Value 1/3 1/4 1/3/6 1/2/4 Binary
0 0 0 0 0 0
1 1 1 1 1 1
2 2 2 2 1 1
3 1 3 1 2 2
4 2 1 2 1 1
5 3 2 3 2 2
6 2 3 1 2 2
7 3 4 2 3 3
8 4 2 3 2 1
9 3 3 2 3 2
10 4 4 3 3 2
11 5 5 4 4 3
Avg 2.5 2.5 2 2 1.67
*I'm going with 0-11 on the basis of calculating coins used in change,
which is why 0 is a valid entry. Multiples of twelve would follow the
same pattern, which means that for 0-143, you'd double those averages
(since you'd need coins for both twelves and ones)
Binary-based coins are the best system for minimizing coins per
transaction. 1/3/6 or 1/2/4 comes close.
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 04:00:03 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Hello!
Please remember OT tag in subject!
**Henrik
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 19:03:10 -0900
From: Michael Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Coins, often based on something from the user..
We have five fingers on one hand, so things are 5 and 10.
Mike
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:45:32 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Relay 12, The Lost Relay: Reconstruction
Hi!
I've started a wiki page for the lost Relay 12 and entered my own text
and stuff I received:
http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang_Relay_12
Let's try to reconstruct!
Hopefully Jeffrey Henning reappears one day and can support us.
**Henrik
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 00:12:31 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
The best ratio between adjacent denominations for minimizing the
number of tokens exchanged in a transaction, whether your require
exact amounts or allow overpayment with change, is 2 - this is
mathematically provable. There are papers by economists claiming that
it's actually 3, but the claim is based on a flawed analogy with the
Bechet problem of weights, the flaw being that you're not allowed to
use multiples of a given weight in the Bechet problem. (Imagine
being able to use at most one penny per transaction. Ridiculous!)
This set of criteria (fewest tokens exchanged) is based on the
economic principle of least effort.
As I said, however, there is counter pressure for keeping the total
number of denominations down, given that people have to be able to do
the math, recognize each token quickly, etc etc. The Bechet problem
does have relevance here: you want the fewest denominations overall
that handle arbitrary amounts reasonably efficiently, and 3 turns out
to be a pretty good ratio (though not necessarily ideal).
Van Hove makes a compelling argument that the principle of least
effort should be given greater weight. But he also points out that
the powers-of-two system yields computational difficulties for human
brains used to thinking in decimal terms. Successive 1-2-5 triplets
(1,2,5,10,20,50,100,200,500,...) make a reasonable compromise; the
mean ratio is 2.25, not far from the least-principle ideal of 2.0, but
the math is easier and the number of denominations slightly lower.
Of course, in a conculture, any number of variables may differ from
what's true here and now, causing different choices to be superior.
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:41:19 +0000
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
staving Nik Taylor:
>Peter Bleackley wrote:
>>For The Empire of Imegan (Mágikimnaz speakers)
>>1 Mágikimillund (Emperor-gold) = 30 Imeganrennadá (Imegan-silver)
>>1 Imeganrennad = 18 Gudmenandá (Loaf-bronze)
>>Before the fall of the Empire, 1 Gudmenand would buy a loaf of bread of a
>>standard weight. However, the currency was considerably devalued during
>>the War of Breaking, when the Empire collapsed.
>
>How was the Gudmenand divided, if at all?
I haven't given any thought to that, but possibly it was divided by
physically cutting it into quarters.
>>The currency of the port of Lezera, (translated names only)
>>1 Galley = 12 Barges
>>1 Barge = 16 Skiffs
>>The currency of the Wavolar
>>1 Horse = 6 Foals
>>1 Foal = 5 Spears
>>1 Spear = 4 Horseshoes
>>The Wavolar mainly trade by barter, however, and issue currency mainly as
>>an expression of their independence.
>>The currency of the Jade Empire
>>1 Jade Crown = 25 Kingfishers
>>1 Kingfisher = 15 Spears
>>1 Spear = 8 Atlatls
>>A Jade crown is a jade disc an inch and a half across and 1/4 inch thick.
>>At original values, it is worth at least 10 Magikimillundá.
>
>Interesting names.
All to do with what's culturally valuable to the issuers. In the Jade
Empire, the kingfisher is a symbol of the Emperor.
Pete
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:19:10 +0000
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
staving Nomad of Norad:
> > "To decimate smthng" means "to reduce smthng by removing one-tenth of it".
>
>Interesting. The way I've always seen it used, "decimate" = "destroy,
>obliterate"
>
>As in, "The swarming ghllkkkxxoorvvian warfleet swooped down over the
>continents of Earth and decimated the worlds population..."
The original meaning was "to punish a disgraced military unit by choosing
1/10 of the soldiers by lot to be summarily executed by their comrades." As
practiced in the Roman army.
Pete
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:20:23 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Missing relays
Both relay 2 (Sally Caves' Bast-text) and 3 (Nicole Perrin's Bliss of a
Fairy) are gone from the net. The latter is completely gone but the
former at least has the order of participants online:
hhttp://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/bastrelay2.html
* Does anyone have a copy of the entries?
* Might it be an idea to have a common "safe house" for all relays so
that they won't be lost in the future?
t.
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:56:17 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Missing relays
taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> Both relay 2 (Sally Caves' Bast-text) and 3 (Nicole Perrin's Bliss of a
> Fairy) are gone from the net. The latter is completely gone but the
> former at least has the order of participants online:
>
> hhttp://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/bastrelay2.html
>
> * Does anyone have a copy of the entries?
> * Might it be an idea to have a common "safe house" for all relays so
> that they won't be lost in the future?
Do you have the URL for either, when they were up? They might've been
archived at archive.org. It's always a good place to check.
--
Tristan.
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:28:00 +0000
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlang Wiki
The conlang wiki http://www.talideon.com/concultures/wiki/ has been locked
for some time, due to vandalism. Keith has stated that he wants to set up
an editors table - hopefully if enough people sign up for this, he'll be
able to resurrect the wiki. I've volunteered already, and I think it would
be a good thing if other people did. Please have a look at the wiki, and
sign up if you think you can make a contribution to bringing a useful
resource back to life.
Pete
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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:58:52 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT coins and currency
Quoting R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I notice that officially the Greeks alone are permitted to dispense with
> those two vowels and call it /ev'ro/. But the rest of us must have 'eu'.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Orthographically, the Greek is
EYPΩ, not EBPΩ, and phone*ically the Swedish is [Evru]*, so Greek
doesn't seem unique in either respect.
* My dictionary gives [e8)ru] as an alternate pronuncation, but nobody seems to
use that. [e8)] is a very un-Swedish diphthong.
Andreas
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Message: 25
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:30:08 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT coins and currency
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
>>I notice that officially the Greeks alone are permitted to dispense with
>>those two vowels and call it /ev'ro/. But the rest of us must have 'eu'.
>
>
> I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Orthographically, the Greek is
> EYPΩ, not EBPΩ,
Yes - but EY is /ev/ or /ef/ (depending upon what follows). /ev/ does
not have to be spelled EB in Greek.
It will be interesting to see what the venerable Commissioners lay down
as the "correct" Cyrillic form of the name.
> and phone*ically the Swedish is [Evru]*, so Greek
> doesn't seem unique in either respect.
I did not know that - good for the Swedes!
>
> * My dictionary gives [e8)ru] as an alternate pronuncation, but nobody seems
> to
> use that. [e8)] is a very un-Swedish diphthong.
That was my point - [ew] is not exactly the most common of diphthongs.
Some languages, such as English, French & German, have their own
tradition of pronouncing the |eu| combo. But it would seem that some,
like Latvian, with its Eiropa = "Europe", might not so easily
accommodate it.
I still consider the name 'euro' to be poorly chosen for several reasons
(and Michael Everson seems to hold much the views); but there is little
point in dwelling on this. The name has been chosen & the currency is in
use. So maybe this aspect of the thread should close.
--
Ray
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