There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Practicing pronounciation; consonant clusters
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Practicing pronounciation; consonant clusters
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Bishop's poem about prepositions
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Practicing pronounciation; consonant clusters
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: ago
From: Harold Ensle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Bishop's poem about prepositions
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Practicing pronounciation; consonant clusters
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Mairzy Dotes... x: Preparing for Winter-een-mas
From: Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Bishop's poem about prepositions
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Bishop's poem about prepositions
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Bishop's poem about prepositions
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Fwd: Mairzy Dotes... x: Preparing for Winter-een-mas
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. OT: Ted Chiang's contact info?
From: "M. C. DeMarco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: OT: Ted Chiang's contact info?
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Nokta Kanto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Pretty 2d script I've lost the link to - anyone remember?
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Pretty 2d script I've lost the link to - anyone remember?
From: René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: ago
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Pronunciation of Khangaþyagon
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:11:38 +0200
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Practicing pronounciation; consonant clusters
Roger Mills wrote:
>Arthaey Angosii wrote:
> > > > That reminds me, I still need to go pronounce what I trascribe as
> > > > [ml~)] (Asha'ille |ml|) to my linguistics professor, to she if she
> > > > has a better IPA transcription suggestion...(snip)
> > The best way I can think to describe it more is thus: Start by saying
> > a dark /l/. Now, while doing your dark-l business, bring your lips
> > together for the /m/. When you separate your lips while continuing the
> > /l/, you'll have the sound I mean. (Instructions tested on
> > unsuspecting non-conlanger boyfriend. *grin*)
> >
>I was trying it slightly differently: close the lips as for [m],
>simultaneously put the tongue in position for dark [l]. Then start voicing.
>This produces an audibly different sound than plain [m], of course because
>the resonating chamber in the mouth has a different shape. Putting it into
>the flow of speech, e.g. "a[ml~]a" seems to produce either a nasalized l+m
>or m(b)l release but with a little work I managed to release both
>articulators at the same time. Is this what you had in mind?
Dark l? So [5] and not [l]?
>Not so strangely, I suppose, if you close the lips for [m] but put the
>tongue in position for [n] or [N], you simply get [n]/[N]; the closed lips
>don't seem to matter.
Still, /mN)/ does exist in some languages; the timing of the closure starts
and releases is what primarily distinguishes the quality of the sound from
its components.
I've even heard of an African language where labial-velars contrast with all
three of plain labials, plain velars and rounded velars.
John Vertical
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:02:35 +0000
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Practicing pronounciation; consonant clusters
Are you sure you don't mean /Nm)/? I've never heard of a language with
it the other way round... and order does matter, since languages with
labial-velar stops, nasals etc (doubly articulated) generally have the
velar closure occuring, then bilabial closure occuring afterwards, then
the velar closure being released, then the bilabial closure being
released. If the two closures and releases overlap perfectly (or one set
occurs within the other set) then the sound is pretty much impossible to
reliably distinguish.What I mean is:
Normal:
v b vr br
v = velar b = bilabial
r = release
Opposite:
b v br vr
(no language I know of)
Same time:
(b+v) (b+v)r
(no language I know of)
Containment:
v b br vr
b v vr br
(no language I know of)
>
> Still, /mN)/ does exist in some languages; the timing of the closure
> starts and releases is what primarily distinguishes the quality of the
> sound from its components.
> I've even heard of an African language where labial-velars contrast
> with all three of plain labials, plain velars and rounded velars.
>
> John Vertical
>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:23:46 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bishop's poem about prepositions
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:04 CET, Philip Newton wrote:
> I prefer "What did you bring the book that I didn't want to be read to
> out of up for?".
>
> [...]
>
> (Can you parse that? Or do you need brackets for that, too?)
Yes I can: For which reason did you bring the book out of which I do not
want to be read to up? Or, in German: Warum hast du das Buch hochgebracht,
aus dem ich nicht vorgelesen haben will?
It's neither possible in German, nor in Ayeri to have such weird clusters of
prepositions.
Carsten
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:03:55 +0200
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Practicing pronounciation; consonant clusters
Chris Bates wrote:
>Are you sure you don't mean /Nm)/? I've never heard of a language with it
>the other way round... and order does matter, since languages with
>labial-velar stops, nasals etc (doubly articulated) generally have the
>velar closure occuring, then bilabial closure occuring afterwards, then the
>velar closure being released, then the bilabial closure being released.
Well, you know more than me about the subject then. :) I was just pointing
out that (using your notation) even if v b br vr is essentially
indistinguishable from [N], the others are.
But now that you mention it, I in fact do find it easiest if I start with
the velar closure and end with the bilabial. However, I wouldn't buy it that
[N_XNm)m_X] were the *only* realization found for /Nm)/ anywhere.
>If the two closures and releases overlap perfectly (or one set occurs
>within the other set) then the sound is pretty much impossible to reliably
>distinguish.
I can tell exact overlap out just fine too.
John Vertical
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:15:58 -0500
From: Harold Ensle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ago
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:15:22 +0000, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Kris Kowal wrote:
>> Friends,
>[snip]
>>>Nor is 'ago' exactly unique. There are other words that behave in a
>>>similar fashion. Our attention has already been drawn to 'away' as:
>>>He lives three miles away.
>>>She lives far away.
>>
>>
>> However, none of them seem to have that one restriction that it must
>> precede a qualifier like 'I went many years ago'. While 'I went ago'
>> never occurs in idiomatic English,
>
>True - but, following the maxim of my English teacher "By their deeds
>shall ye know them", the uses of 'ago' are the same as those of quite a
>few other words in occurring after a phrase denote time or space. It is
>true that 'ago' cannot be used by itself and in this respect _may be_
>unique, but that is IMHO hardly a criterion for setting up another part
>of speech.
Excuse me if I interrupt the thread here...which by the way...I started.
But I have a few questions about how this list works.
Do people usually read the previous posts in a thread before they
add a new post? Or are they suppose to simply attach a new post
to the nearest unread thread by random selection?
In *this* thread the function of "ago" was already resolved.
Thereafter followed a swarm of posts which ignored the initial findings
in the thread but in fact ended up using many of the same
arguments and examples that were already stated before.
Though, for some reason, they were still...for the most part....
NOT able to come to the reasonable and confident solution that
the thread had already achieved.
This seems most inefficient.
Do the list members each see all of the posts in a thread
or are some posts invisible to some members?
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:05:24 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bishop's poem about prepositions
Aaron Morse wrote:
> That kind of construction is impossible in Naijaka (my conlang) as well as
> Drózhlák (my other conlang). . .and unfortunately in a lot I'll bet it is
> untraslatable (those that use cases and whatnot)
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, 23:31 CET, Adam Walker wrote:
>
>
> >> And yet I wondered, 'What should he come
> >> Up from out of in under for?'
>
First impression is both prep-ful lines in the poem are impossible in Kash,
but I'm thinking about it..........(Distracted at the moment by Gwr sound
changes :-(( )
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:08:57 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Practicing pronounciation; consonant clusters
John Vertical wrote:
> Roger Mills wrote:
> >I was trying it slightly differently: close the lips as for [m],
> >simultaneously put the tongue in position for dark [l]. (snip)
>
> Dark l? So [5] and not [l]?
>
Yes. (a) I don't have CSX at the tip of my fingers, so to speak, and (b) I
feel the descriptive phrase is clearer than the symbol, for others who may
suffer from (a).....
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:16:25 -0500
From: Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Mairzy Dotes... x: Preparing for Winter-een-mas
Hi Herman (Herman Miller), in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Jan 15 you wrote:
> Arthaey Angosii wrote:
> > Anyone else feel moved by the spirit of Winter-een-mas? :)
>
> How about a game title translation project?
>
> Well, there are some titles that can't be translated as much as borrowed
> in transliterated form. What exactly is a "Bosconian", for instance? The
> word brings to mind the Italian word "bosco" (forest), but the game
> doesn't have anything to do with forests. So a title like this could
> just be borrowed as is. Making assumptions about the correct
> pronunciation, this could be "Baskónian" in Minza, but I'm inclined to
> go with the spelling and call it "Boskónian". I'll have to decide the
> form of the borrowing on a case by case basis. Other names of this sort:
>
> Galaga - Gálaga
> Ico - Iko
> Pikmin - Pikmin
> Tetris - Tetris
>
> "Katamari Damacy" could be translated, but it isn't in the English
> version, so why not just borrow the name directly in Minza? "Katamari
> Dámaši" follows the Japanese pronunciation "katamari damashii" (Minza
> doesn't mark long vowels).
>
> Then there are names which can be translated in part. "Pac-Man" could
> have the "man" part translated. "Pokémon" is short for "Pocket
> Monsters", which could be translated. But it might be best just to
> borrow these names: Pakman, Pókemon. (Pókemon follows the stress pattern
> of English /'pokiman/, since I don't know how the name is stressed in
> Japanese. But "poketto", the Japanese word for pocket, has the high
> pitch on the second syllable.)
[Snipped the rest of the discussion...]
This brings to mind another matter I came across once:
Consider the children's song "Mairzy Dotes" (or whatever the thing was
called), which is also known by the title "Mares Eat Oats."
The first verse of the song starts out:
"Mares eat oats and lambs eat oats and little lambs eat ivy..."
However, it is also rendered:
"Mairzy dotes and lamzee dotes and little lamzee dyvey..."
(or something very close to that)
In non-English countries, they actually sing the song exactly the same as
we do, with the sounds written out phonetically like above, and probably
without the kids knowing that the song is actually English language stuff
done phonetically! :-D
Crazy world, innit! :-)
Anyone else know any other examples of this sort of thing?
I suppose 1000 years from now, when English is long gone, we'll probably
still be singing the same song, phonetically unchanged... }giggle{
--
Nomad of Norad (David C. Hall) --- *TeamAmiga*
[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://www.joshua-wopr.com/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
For a dementedly wacky sci-fi continue-the-story project,
join my WebBBS. http://www.joshua-wopr.com/phpBB/index.php
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:21:36 -0800
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bishop's poem about prepositions
On 1/22/06, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Aaron Morse wrote:
>
> > That kind of construction is impossible in Naijaka (my conlang) as well as
> > Drózhlák (my other conlang). . .and unfortunately in a lot I'll bet it is
> > untraslatable (those that use cases and whatnot)
> > On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, 23:31 CET, Adam Walker wrote:
> >
> >
> > >> And yet I wondered, 'What should he come
> > >> Up from out of in under for?'
> >
> First impression is both prep-ful lines in the poem are impossible in Kash,
> but I'm thinking about it..........(Distracted at the moment by Gwr sound
> changes :-(( )
>
My first impression is also that it's impossible in Kēlen. But trying,
I can come up with a possible translation of 'Get up out from in under
there." which would be:
ñi rā le ōl rū xō mē tā ēmma kā
NI (change of state)
rā to
le me
ōl up
rū from
xō there
mē in
tā under
ēmma out
kā (command)
"Get up to me out from in under there."
I guess I should have made 'out' a single syllable word. :)
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.terjemar.net
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:31:03 -0800
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bishop's poem about prepositions
On 1/22/06, Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 1/22/06, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Aaron Morse wrote:
> >
> > > That kind of construction is impossible in Naijaka (my conlang) as well as
> > > Drózhlák (my other conlang). . .and unfortunately in a lot I'll bet it is
> > > untraslatable (those that use cases and whatnot)
> > > On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, 23:31 CET, Adam Walker wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >> And yet I wondered, 'What should he come
> > > >> Up from out of in under for?'
> > >
> > First impression is both prep-ful lines in the poem are impossible in Kash,
> > but I'm thinking about it..........(Distracted at the moment by Gwr sound
> > changes :-(( )
> >
> My first impression is also that it's impossible in Kēlen. But trying,
> I can come up with a possible translation of 'Get up out from in under
> there." which would be:
> ñi rā le ōl rū xō mē tā ēmma kā
>
> NI (change of state)
> rā to
> le me
> ōl up
> rū from
> xō there
> mē in
> tā under
> ēmma out
> kā (command)
>
> "Get up to me out from in under there."
>
> I guess I should have made 'out' a single syllable word. :)
Actually, on further though, it makes more sense to leave out the
'out', since rū X mē implies 'out'. Also to reverse mē and tā. So:
ñi rā le ōl rū xō tā mē kā
There! Now it's all words of one syllable. (And the locative
postpositions are only stacked two deep.)
-S
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.terjemar.net
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:39:57 -0000
From: Christian Thalmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bishop's poem about prepositions
--- In [email protected], Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes I can: For which reason did you bring the book out of which I do not
> want to be read to up? Or, in German: Warum hast du das Buch
hochgebracht,
> aus dem ich nicht vorgelesen haben will?
I would have parsed "bring up" as "mention" in this context,
but I guess it does make sense in the literal sense.
Oh, and the joke would be completely lost in any of my
langs, I'm afraid, especially in the oh-so-linear Oro Mpaa.
-- Christian Thalmann
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 00:10:04 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Fwd: Mairzy Dotes... x: Preparing for Winter-een-mas
--- In [email protected], Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall <nomad-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>"Mairzy dotes and lamzee dotes and little lamzee dyvey..."
Not quite right.
Mairsee dotes and dosee dotes and liddle lambsee divee.
A kiddle ee divee too, wouldn't you?
Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy.
A kid'll eat ivy too, wouldn't you?
Sorry I can't sing it for you. :-)>
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:26:25 -0500
From: "M. C. DeMarco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Ted Chiang's contact info?
On Jan 21, 2006, at 12:01 AM, CONLANG automatic digest system wrote:
> From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: January 20, 2006 7:12:48 PM EST
> Subject: OT: Ted Chiang's contact info?
>
>
> Anyone know how I can contact him? (The guy who wrote "Stories of your
> life" et al.)
>
> I've tried contacting his editor, but evidently he doesn't know
> anything. :-/
I'm on digest, so sorry if someone else has responded already. I
think the Ted at this blog is Ted Chiang: http://
withboots.blogspot.com/. His blogger profile is here: http://
www.blogger.com/profile/1787935. Maybe if you commented at the blog
he'd get back to you.
m.c.d.
_________________
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.mcdemarco.net/
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:37:39 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
First off - has anyone made progress on this since I first brought it
up in Mayish?
Second, a few specific points for pondering:
* how to have sememes that overlap or intertwine?
* how to have the 'web' interconnected at higher-order levels (e.g.
paragraph plus)?
- would probably require that the subparts be semantically connected somehow...
* how to show a conversation or interplay of ideas?
- how to deal with converting, or obviating, the temporal-sequential
nature of normal conversation?
- perhaps have one color per speaker, & some point-counterpoint
relationships of sememes - so it looks like a normal web, except
multicolor?
... Any others that y'all have thought up or philosiphized about since
the last big NLF2DWS threads?
Personally, I still find it very difficult to think about sufficiently
to get an idea of what it would look like concretely; I have some
abstract ideas of how I'd want it to work (still very much like
Heptapod B in skeleton) but no way of even sketching an example.
- Sai
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:41:53 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Ted Chiang's contact info?
Commented.
Thanks for the link.
- Sai
On 1/22/06, M. C. DeMarco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jan 21, 2006, at 12:01 AM, CONLANG automatic digest system wrote:
>
> > From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: January 20, 2006 7:12:48 PM EST
> > Subject: OT: Ted Chiang's contact info?
> >
> >
> > Anyone know how I can contact him? (The guy who wrote "Stories of your
> > life" et al.)
> >
> > I've tried contacting his editor, but evidently he doesn't know
> > anything. :-/
>
>
> I'm on digest, so sorry if someone else has responded already. I
> think the Ted at this blog is Ted Chiang: http://
> withboots.blogspot.com/. His blogger profile is here: http://
> www.blogger.com/profile/1787935. Maybe if you commented at the blog
> he'd get back to you.
>
> m.c.d.
> _________________
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.mcdemarco.net/
>
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:30:15 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
Sai Emrys wrote:
> First off - has anyone made progress on this since I first brought it
> up in Mayish?
The Glyphica Arcana is a two-dimensional system, but I've joined
since May.
> Second, a few specific points for pondering:
> * how to have sememes that overlap or intertwine?
Sememe?
> * how to have the 'web' interconnected at higher-order levels (e.g.
> paragraph plus)?
> - would probably require that the subparts be semantically connected
> somehow...
The GA doesn't do this, sentences exist in separate blocks. I'm
not sure yet how to distinguish paragraphs.
> * how to show a conversation or interplay of ideas?
> - how to deal with converting, or obviating, the temporal-sequential
> nature of normal conversation?
Aren't conversations linear by definition?
> - perhaps have one color per speaker, & some point-counterpoint
> relationships of sememes - so it looks like a normal web, except
> multicolor?
Interplay of (feedback between) ideas I'm still playing with.
Nothing has been satisfactory so far.
> ... Any others that y'all have thought up or philosiphized about since
> the last big NLF2DWS threads?
>
> Personally, I still find it very difficult to think about sufficiently
> to get an idea of what it would look like concretely; I have some
> abstract ideas of how I'd want it to work (still very much like
> Heptapod B in skeleton) but no way of even sketching an example.
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/myths/
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:17:38 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
> The Glyphica Arcana is a two-dimensional system, but I've joined
> since May.
Linky?
And what do *you* mean by "two-dimensional"?
> > Second, a few specific points for pondering:
> > * how to have sememes that overlap or intertwine?
>
> Sememe?
The equivalent of a "word", but exclusively depicting meaning (not sound / etc).
> > * how to show a conversation or interplay of ideas?
> > - how to deal with converting, or obviating, the temporal-sequential
> > nature of normal conversation?
>
> Aren't conversations linear by definition?
Transcribing a spoken conversation? Yes, certainly.
But I would say that writing the *essence* of a conversation - i.e.
the interplay of ideas - need not necessarily be linear. (At least,
for conversations that have actual content.)
Parts that rely on actual sequence of events (or sequence of
processing, e.g. having understood X only after hearing Y) would
obviously be a bit more difficult.
- Sai
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:51:20 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
Sai Emrys wrote:
>>The Glyphica Arcana is a two-dimensional system, but I've joined
>>since May.
>
> Linky?
See: http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/BabelTarot.html
particularly the translations of The One Ring and Babel text verse 6.
> And what do *you* mean by "two-dimensional"?
"With interpretation dependent on both horizontal and vertical
relationships."
>>>Second, a few specific points for pondering:
>>>* how to have sememes that overlap or intertwine?
>>
>>Sememe?
>
> The equivalent of a "word", but exclusively depicting meaning (not sound /
> etc).
In the GA all symbols can carry a wide variety of meanings, with
the specific interpretation dependent on grammatical markings.
For example, the glyph 'dark' can mean "dark" as an adjective,
"to prevent from seeing" as a verb, "the darkness" as a noun, or
many other possibilities.
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/myths/
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 00:25:14 -0500
From: Nokta Kanto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
I've picked up Harpelan again, a little bit, and I'm slowly refurbishing
the morphology and lexicon. (I'm still nomail.)
> * how to have sememes that overlap or intertwine?
Sort of a case study: I haven't done much of this in Harpelan, with the
exception of some outside/inside pairings. In my case, I've found the
results aesthetically unpleasing. The exception is Harpelan verbs, which
comprise a small and closed set (currently numbering seven) that take
affixes to mark modality, intent, and auxiliary verbs. All the verbs have
approximately a square or pentagonal shape and have a large blank space in
the middle -- this gives them reference points so that sememes can be lined
up consistently; even so, there's quite a few not-quite-fits that become
special cases. In all, it's hard to make characters that are visually
distinct on their own, yet have a common set of reference points to align
with other characters.
It's also a challenge to make it so that the individual sememes are still
recognizable after overlapping. Currently, I don't see individual sememes
in verbs. Instead, I see first the density of features, which tells me how
many sememes are there, and then specific distinguishing features such as
"equals sign" double lines that are characteristic of particular sememes.
> * how to have the 'web' interconnected at higher-order levels (e.g.
> paragraph plus)?
That's what names are for =)
There's a graphical programming language called "Labview" where, instead of
typing programs, you draw them by laying down boxes (which represent
function calls or structured control flow), and connecting the outputs of
boxes to the inputs of other boxes. Labview has this wire clutter problem:
for modest to large size programs, one ends up spending more and more time
adjusting the wires that connect different boxes together so that the
program is readable. I think this is kind of an intrinsic problem with
graphical writing; if you want to connect related things together, you're
going to get wire clutter as the text gets larger. The solution is to name
things that are not local to a small area. I'd like to hear any solutions
others come up with.
--Noktakanto
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:01:04 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
> I've picked up Harpelan again, a little bit, and I'm slowly refurbishing
> the morphology and lexicon. (I'm still nomail.)
... yet somehow you saw this. Magic! :-P
> > * how to have sememes that overlap or intertwine?
>
> Sort of a case study: I haven't done much of this in Harpelan, with the
> exception of some outside/inside pairings. In my case, I've found the
> results aesthetically unpleasing. The exception is Harpelan verbs, which
> comprise a small and closed set (currently numbering seven) that take
> affixes to mark modality, intent, and auxiliary verbs. All the verbs have
> approximately a square or pentagonal shape and have a large blank space in
> the middle -- this gives them reference points so that sememes can be lined
> up consistently; even so, there's quite a few not-quite-fits that become
> special cases. In all, it's hard to make characters that are visually
> distinct on their own, yet have a common set of reference points to align
> with other characters.
Mm. What if your verbs were not all of the same shape - in such a
manner that they would overlap well?
Or for that matter, you could only have overlapping with things that
would make sense as modifying each other - e.g. integrating object and
subject into a verb; perhaps its modifiers as well (adverbials etc)...
> It's also a challenge to make it so that the individual sememes are still
> recognizable after overlapping. Currently, I don't see individual sememes
> in verbs. Instead, I see first the density of features, which tells me how
> many sememes are there, and then specific distinguishing features such as
> "equals sign" double lines that are characteristic of particular sememes.
Well, they needn't be individually recognizable so much as their mesh
needs to be comprehensible. If it can be comprehended with enough ease
in its combined form, I don't see any need to worry about it being
difficult to pick apart its subparts (any more than with 'normal'
fusional morphology...)
I'll be honest though and say I currently have no idea how to make
that happen. I think it can be done, but that's mostly faith.
> > * how to have the 'web' interconnected at higher-order levels (e.g.
> > paragraph plus)?
>
> That's what names are for =)
>
> There's a graphical programming language called "Labview" where, instead of
> typing programs, you draw them by laying down boxes (which represent
> function calls or structured control flow), and connecting the outputs of
> boxes to the inputs of other boxes. Labview has this wire clutter problem:
> for modest to large size programs, one ends up spending more and more time
> adjusting the wires that connect different boxes together so that the
> program is readable. I think this is kind of an intrinsic problem with
> graphical writing; if you want to connect related things together, you're
> going to get wire clutter as the text gets larger. The solution is to name
> things that are not local to a small area. I'd like to hear any solutions
> others come up with.
Agreed. Of course, it assumes a particular kind of connection display
(direct point-to-point lines). Perhaps you could have things that
*point*, or some sort of automatic naming (e.g. a hash, or a
much-simplified version of the thing referenced), or ...?
My point though was just getting it away from capping out at chunked
sentences to start with. It seems you've got that one down and are
dealing with how to resolve clutter once you have a complicated
structure.
I would think that you could use a computer to help with this - e.g.
one of those programs that makes nice little graphs of social
networks, and puts weights / repulsions on them all so that you have
relatively little overlapping. But that's suboptimal, if you want to
be able to write it normally.
The other aspect of this is aesthetic. I find it a bit jarring to have
a nice graph / web structure... and then see another, totally
separate, next to it. Back to linearity again, just with a higher
chunk level. Surely there's some way to have it pretty &
comprehensible, and still look organic?
- Sai
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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:18:36 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Pretty 2d script I've lost the link to - anyone remember?
I remember seeing a script somewhat similar in style to Ouwiyaru (eg
http://community.livejournal.com/conlangs/258572.html ), but more
flowing and calligraphic. I believe I saw a small sample of it -
including a Babel text? - on somebody's webpage, which included a few
other conlangs IIRC.
Does this sound at all familiar to anyone? Point me?
- Sai
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:04:56 +0100
From: René Uittenbogaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pretty 2d script I've lost the link to - anyone remember?
Is this the one you mean:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/talisman.htm
René
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:29:52 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ago
Harold Ensle wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:15:22 +0000, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
[snip]
>>True - but, following the maxim of my English teacher "By their deeds
>>shall ye know them", the uses of 'ago' are the same as those of quite a
>>few other words in occurring after a phrase denote time or space. It is
>>true that 'ago' cannot be used by itself and in this respect _may be_
>>unique, but that is IMHO hardly a criterion for setting up another part
>>of speech.
>
> Excuse me if I interrupt the thread here...which by the way...I started.
With respect, you did not. It is true that you first used the simple
subject line 'ago', but the thread about 'ago' had started some time
before. Previously the subject line was 'THEORY ago (was: Most common
irregular verbs?)'.
Strictly speaking the thread began during the 'Most common irregular
verbs' thread when other irregularities were suggested. One was to have
a language with prepositions, but the odd postposition such as 'ago';
Charlie replied to this that he understood that 'ago' was an adjective
and this the thread began.
> But I have a few questions about how this list works.
>
> Do people usually read the previous posts in a thread before they
> add a new post?
FYI *I* have read every single email in this thread under its various
subject lines ever since the thread began.
> Or are they suppose to simply attach a new post
> to the nearest unread thread by random selection?
I am very sorry that you are taking this attitude; as I said, I have
read every mail in this thread and I am under the impression that others
have. With respect, I think your implicit accusation is unfounded.
> In *this* thread the function of "ago" was already resolved.
And I thought the function of 'ago' had already been resolved when the
thread had the subject line 'THEORY ago (was: Most common irregular
verbs?)'. I was in fact surprised to read your email of 19th of this
month which harked back to the "The Columbia Guide to Standard American
English" quote (about which I had commented on the 17th Jan. and IIRC
others had also commented) and it appeared to me to add nothing new to
what had already been said before.
I wondered why you had resurrected the thread and, indeed, felt similar
annoyance to that you are apparently feeling now. I had the impression
that you may be had not read all posts. But I did not write in to say so.
> Thereafter followed a swarm of posts which ignored the initial findings
> in the thread but in fact ended up using many of the same
> arguments and examples that were already stated before.
Touché.
> Though, for some reason, they were still...for the most part....
> NOT able to come to the reasonable and confident solution that
> the thread had already achieved.
Touché.
> This seems most inefficient.
>
> Do the list members each see all of the posts in a thread
> or are some posts invisible to some members?
I don't know - but I imagine all are invisible. But threads on this list
to tend to ramble and often give rise to other threads (just as the
irregular verb thread gave rise to the 'ago' thread(s)) - and one just
has to accept it.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:42:27 +0000
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Khangaþyagon
At 21:36 20/01/2006, you wrote:
>Emaelivpeith Peter Bleackley:
> > Various people's attempts to pronounce Khangaþyagon are given
>[snip]
> >
> > The correct pronunciation is
> > 'x&N&T"j&gon
>
>I've added your pronunciation to my conlang FAQ (under the question,
>"How do I pronounce the name of conlang X?").
>
>http://arthaey.mine.nu/~arthaey/conlang/faq.html#Conlang_Community4
>
>Assuming you used ' for secondary stress and " for primary, I should
>have it right. :) I use ' for primary and , for secondary within my
>site, which is why I didn't copy your stress markers verbatim. Holler
>if I got primary/secondary stress backwards!
I do mean " for primary stress and ' for secondary.
Pete
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Message: 25
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:50:22 +1100
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Non-linear full-2d writing (again)
Hi all,
1. On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 Sai Emrys wrote:
>
> First off - has anyone made progress on this since I first brought it
> up in Mayish?
>
> Second, a few specific points for pondering:
> * how to have sememes that overlap or intertwine?
> * how to have the 'web' interconnected at higher-order levels (e.g.
> paragraph plus)?
> - would probably require that the subparts be semantically connected
somehow...
> * how to show a conversation or interplay of ideas?
> - how to deal with converting, or obviating, the temporal-sequential
> nature of normal conversation?
> - perhaps have one color per speaker, & some point-counterpoint
> relationships of sememes - so it looks like a normal web, except
> multicolor?
>
> ... Any others that y'all have thought up or philosiphized about since
> the last big NLF2DWS threads?
See (*1 below)
> Personally, I still find it very difficult to think about sufficiently
> to get an idea of what it would look like concretely; I have some
> abstract ideas of how I'd want it to work (still very much like
> Heptapod B in skeleton) but no way of even sketching an example.
See (*2 below)
2. Jefferson Wilson replied:
>
> Sai Emrys wrote:
>
> > First off - has anyone made progress on this since I first brought it
> > up in Mayish?
>
> The Glyphica Arcana is a two-dimensional system, but I've joined
> since May.
>
> > Second, a few specific points for pondering:
> > * how to have sememes that overlap or intertwine?
>
> Sememe?
>
> > * how to have the 'web' interconnected at higher-order levels (e.g.
> > paragraph plus)?
> > - would probably require that the subparts be semantically connected
somehow...
>
> The GA doesn't do this, sentences exist in separate blocks. I'm
> not sure yet how to distinguish paragraphs.
>
> > * how to show a conversation or interplay of ideas?
> > - how to deal with converting, or obviating, the temporal-sequential
> > nature of normal conversation?
>
> Aren't conversations linear by definition?
See (*3 below)
> > - perhaps have one color per speaker, & some point-counterpoint
> > relationships of sememes - so it looks like a normal web, except
> > multicolor?
>
> Interplay of (feedback between) ideas I'm still playing with.
> Nothing has been satisfactory so far.
>
> > ... Any others that y'all have thought up or philosiphized about since
> > the last big NLF2DWS threads?
> >
> > Personally, I still find it very difficult to think about sufficiently
> > to get an idea of what it would look like concretely; I have some
> > abstract ideas of how I'd want it to work (still very much like
> > Heptapod B in skeleton) but no way of even sketching an example.
3. Sai Emrys replied:
>
> > The Glyphica Arcana is a two-dimensional system, but I've joined
> > since May.
>
> Linky?
>
> And what do *you* mean by "two-dimensional"?
>
> > > Second, a few specific points for pondering:
> > > * how to have sememes that overlap or intertwine?
> >
> > Sememe?
>
> The equivalent of a "word", but exclusively depicting meaning (not sound /
etc).
See (*4 below)
> > > * how to show a conversation or interplay of ideas?
> > > - how to deal with converting, or obviating, the temporal-sequential
> > > nature of normal conversation?
> >
> > Aren't conversations linear by definition?
>
> Transcribing a spoken conversation? Yes, certainly.
>
> But I would say that writing the *essence* of a conversation - i.e.
> the interplay of ideas - need not necessarily be linear. (At least,
> for conversations that have actual content.)
See (*5 below)
> Parts that rely on actual sequence of events (or sequence of
> processing, e.g. having understood X only after hearing Y) would
> obviously be a bit more difficult.
See (*6 below)
4. Jefferson Wilson replied:
>
> Sai Emrys wrote:
>
> >>The Glyphica Arcana is a two-dimensional system, but I've joined
> >>since May.
> >
> > Linky?
>
> See: http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/BabelTarot.html
particularly the translations of The One Ring and Babel text verse 6.
>
> > And what do *you* mean by "two-dimensional"?
>
> "With interpretation dependent on both horizontal and vertical
> relationships."
>
> >>>Second, a few specific points for pondering:
> >>>* how to have sememes that overlap or intertwine?
> >>
> >>Sememe?
> >
> > The equivalent of a "word", but exclusively depicting meaning (not sound
/ etc).
>
> In the GA all symbols can carry a wide variety of meanings, with
> the specific interpretation dependent on grammatical markings.
> For example, the glyph 'dark' can mean "dark" as an adjective,
> "to prevent from seeing" as a verb, "the darkness" as a noun, or
> many other possibilities.
See (*7 below)
------------------------------
My thoughts:
(*1)
> ... Any others that y'all have thought up or philosiphized about since
> the last big NLF2DWS threads?
Philosophy ... ! Maybe the cart is before the horse? What do you want a 2D
writing system FOR? What
is the purpose of such a system? What advantages do you expect from using
two rather than one dimension? Are we just trying to create such a thing
because, like a clever programmer, we can? Or is there a real need for it?
To determine possible uses of a 2D system, let's analyse the strengths and
weaknesses of a 1D system; maybe an extra dimension (or seven) will help
remedy those defects.
Some analysis: A linear writing system allows us to set sensible (usually
visible, but sometimes tangible, as in eg Braille) symbols in sequence.
Those symbols may represent words or thoughts. The word representation may
be phonic or ideographic. If phonic, it may be phonetic, phonemic or just a
phonemic skeleton (typically consonantal), and the sounds depicted may be
current, archaic, or a mixture of both. An ideographic representation may
support one or many different phonic realisations, eg Chinese characters and
the many spoken languages of East Asia that have used it. If the system
records words, the sequence ofthe symbols usually corresponds to that of a
potential or actual spoken utterance.
Strengths: A 1D writing system can -
1. represent a sequence of words EITHER phonically OR ideographically.
2. if phonic, provide enough clues to enable a reader to correctly
pronounce an entirely new word.
3. if ideographic, represent as many different ideas as writer ingenuity
can create distinct symbols for.
4. if ideographic, effectively represent a few similarities between many
different ideas.
Weaknesses: A 1D writing system cannot -
1. represent a sequence of words BOTH phonically AND ideographically in a
clearly structured way.
2. if phonic, effectively represent different spoken dialects occurring
over space and time, the problem being most apparent when significant sound
shifts have happened.
3. if ideographic, represent many different ideas in a few strokes, hence
be written quickly.
4. if ideographic, effectively represent more than a few similarities
between many different ideas.
5. represent digressions, comments, call-outs, hot links, or footnotes with
mechanisms that automatically return the reader to the point of departure.
6. represent simultaneous speeches by two or more actors.
7. represent ideas connected to those presented, showing their degree or
kind of connection or both.
Possible purposes:
1. Remedy weakness 1.
2. Remedy weakness 2.
...
7. Remedy weakness 7.
(*2)
> Personally, I still find it very difficult to think about sufficiently
> to get an idea of what it would look like concretely; I have some
> abstract ideas of how I'd want it to work (still very much like
> Heptapod B in skeleton) but no way of even sketching an example.
Possible means:
1. Use one linear dimension to represent the flow or sequence of events
over time, as at present.
2. Use a second linear dimension to represent a category of information
about a word eg phoneme, suprasegmentals such as stress, toneme, idea,
variant readings.
3. Use the reader's direction of gaze as a means to direct the presentation
4. Use contrast to bring different aspects to the fore- or back-ground
interactively.
5. Use size to represent relevance or importance.
6. Use colour to represent different speakers.
1 is now: 1 D writing.
1 & 2 together make a 2D writing system. There are already limited uses of
this idea in eg (a) ruby text giving the phonetics of Japanese written as
ideographs; (b) tone marking in romanised Chinese as superscript numerals;
(c) tone marking in romanised Vietnamese as diacritics; (d) secondary
articulations using superscript letter glyphs in phonetic & phonemic
transcriptions; and (e) stress patterns using ' and , in phonetic & phonemic
transcriptions. But why not let a complete record of a single utterance
take up a whole page, with the space divided into horizontal bands, one for
each category of interest? We no longer have to try so hard to save paper,
now that we have electronic ink. In fact the usual computer screen
proportions, being those of a landscape rather than a portrait picture,
would possibly be nearly ideal for presenting (say) seven categories of
information about an utterance
in each the bottom and top half of the screen:
. ideograph_1 . ideograph_2 . ideograph_3 . ideograph_4 .
ideograph_5 . ideograph_6 . ideograph_7
. phone phone . phone phone . phone phone phone . phone phone . phone
phone . phone phone . phone phone phone
. tone . tone . tone tone .
tone . tone . tone . tone tone
. stress . stress . stress .
stress . stress . stress . stress
3 is used in place of a mouse pointer in communication software for the
disabled, and (I believe) to augment the abilities of the able eg in
military aircraft.
4 is used by readily available "cognitive map" software for brainstorming,
the name of which escapes me right now.
5 is used now to emphasise titles, headings and advertised brand names.
It's also used in the meta-search engine kartOO (www.kartoo.com) to show
relevance to search criteria on interactive cognitive maps.
6 is a neat way to contrast conflicting speakers or trains of thought that
may happen at once.
(*3)
> Aren't conversations linear by definition?
Not in my house or extended family!
(*4)
> > > * how to have sememes that overlap or intertwine?
> >
> > Sememe?
>
> The equivalent of a "word", but exclusively depicting meaning (not sound /
etc).
So a sememe could be a purely ideographic, linear text. If you want to show
other aspects of meaning, the cognitive map might be the way to go, with
each word surrounded by a "cloud" of similar or related words linked by
lines.
Overlapping meanings are shown effectively by cognitive maps such as kartOO,
using phonemic representations of words, phrases to stand for meanings. The
only real requirement for these maps to be information-dense is that they
use compact representations of meaning; in this regard, a Chinese ideograph
is probably more efficient than a Latin character-set phonemic
representation.
(*5)
> But I would say that writing the *essence* of a conversation - i.e.
> the interplay of ideas - need not necessarily be linear.
Again, a cognitive map seems a good way to go for representing meaningful
content.
> (At least,
> for conversations that have actual content.)
I do hope you're not ignoring that favourite buzz-word of media studies and
artistic criticism: "sub-text"? :-)
(*6)
> Parts that rely on actual sequence of events (or sequence of
> processing, e.g. having understood X only after hearing Y) would
> obviously be a bit more difficult.
Yes ... supposing you're tracking someone's eye movements, or simply when
they've "turned the page", metaphorically speaking. You might decide to
delay presenting some information until after that point was passed.
(*7)
> In the GA all symbols can carry a wide variety of meanings, with
> the specific interpretation dependent on grammatical markings.
> For example, the glyph 'dark' can mean "dark" as an adjective,
> "to prevent from seeing" as a verb, "the darkness" as a noun, or
> many other possibilities.
Jeff, have you thought of responding to the recent thread on
"oligosynthetic" languages? It seems that "the Glyphica Arcana" must be
representing some such language at root.
Regards,
Yahya
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