There are 21 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Alienable/inalienable possession
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Proto-Norse question
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Ro booklet "Roap" online temporarily
From: Rick Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. TECH: Unicode support (was Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re:
Which language is this? (once again)))
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: TECH: Unicode support (was Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re:
Which language is this? (once again)))
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: OT: Empaths?
From: Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: OT: Empaths?
From: Hanuman Zhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. [Conlangs-Conf] Speakers, topics, & request for help
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: OT: Empaths?
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
From: Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. [Conlangs-Conf] Show-off pamphlets?
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: OT: Empaths?
From: Erika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Ro booklet "Roap" online temporarily
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: OT: Empaths?
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] Show-off pamphlets?
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: OT: Empaths?
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:51:18 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Alienable/inalienable possession
--- In [email protected], Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi there,
>
> I recently started a new project, Ukele [1], which is
> supposed to have alienable/inalienable posession. I wonder
> how would one express to have something or to give
> something away that is inalienable? E.g. a heart transplant
> or something? Body parts are usually inalienable, after all.
> May there be an evidence that it's a concept rather of
> philosophy than language? Would there be transplants in a
> society that speaks a language with an alienable/
> inalienable distinction? I bet I've got a PDF on this
> floating around on some backup CDs of mine ... However,
> according to Payne it seems to me that it's no problem to
> give away something that is inalienable, it's just specially
> marked for inalienability. I am confused. Does anyone care
> to explain?
>
> Thanks,
> Carsten
>
> [1] www.beckerscarsten.de/conlang/ukele
>
> --
> Keywords: alienable, inalienable, possession
>
> "Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
> (Calvin nay Hobbes)
>
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 16:51:32 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Proto-Norse question
Hi!
I just stumbled over another phenomenon in Old Norse (ON) that I don't
fully understand.
I read about the rule that in early Proto-Norse (PN), after light
syllable, -j- in -ja- remained a glide, while after heavy syllable, it
became a syllabic -i-. Example:
Glide: PN *niðjaR (ni.ðjaR) ('ni-' is light) (> ON niðr)
Vowel: PN *herdiaR (her.ði.aR) ('her-' is heavy) (> ON hirðir)
But now I read that there is *þunkjan in PN ('to think'), while I had
expected *þunkian by the above rule, since the first syllable is
heavy. But still, the word is þykkja in ON and not *þykka, so it was
not trisyllabic in PN.
My explanation is that the above heavy/light rule does not hold after
velar plosives, which got palatalised by the -j- and thus the -ia-
could not become disyllabic. However, I have not yet read this
anywhere. Further, I thought the palatalisation happened later than
the above j > i shift, so how could it influence it? There have
definitely been some palatal effects quite early though, i.e. the
gemination of -kj- to -kkj- and -Gj- to -ggj-, so maybe this
explanation is still feasible.
Would you think that this guess is right, then?
Bye,
Henrik
PS: Due to lack of more books, I currently use two sources:
- A. Zal-uska-Strömberg, _Grammatik des Altisländischen_
- Tor Gjerde, _Norroen Dyrd_ (http://http://norse.ulver.com/)
(This is in Russian, which makes it hard for me to read,
but I have a dictionary and a lot of time...)
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:04:41 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
Philip Newton chi gráfi:
> On 2/4/06, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I guess GSF should not distinguish.
>
> Either that, or use the neuter plural form as an adverb marker.
I would vote for neut.pl. - let it be _polý kalá_
> > If the modern accentuation is used, then it will be necessary, just as
> > it is in the modern Greek spelling.
>
> Bah. I think the position of accent is unambiguous enough - and the
> ambiguous words are probably not worse than e.g. having both "invalid"
> and "invalid" in English. (For example, "khoros" being either "dance"
> or "place" in modern Greek, or "pisti" being either "faith" or the
> subjunctive of "to be convinced".)
If we merge sounds according to the MG pattern, we need to distinguish e.g.
between _gráfi_ 'to write' and _grafí_ 'writing' etc.
> > PAST
> > MG also has a series of perfect forms, formed by using the verb "to
> > have" followed by an invariant verb form (which is the same as the 3rd
> > sing. of the present).
>
> Eh? No, it's the 3rd person singular, sure, but of what used to be
> called the aorist subjunctive, not the normal subjunctive. "Exei
> grapsei", not "Exei grafei", for example.
>
> Though for GSF, the simple present form could be used instead -- I
> just wanted to correct the misconception about GCF.
Since Ray wants to eliminate aspect distinctions, _chi gráfi_ would work quite
OK, I suppose.
> Or just ditch imperfect altogether and simply have a
> future/present/past distinction. Heck, my German idiolect does without
> the imperfect in quite a few cases, substituting the perfect instead.
Nah, imperfect/perfect seems rather necessary in past.
> > INFINITIVES & PARTICIPLES
> > MG, as many know, has dispensed with the infinitive, using a clause
> > beginning with _na_ instead.
>
> And either the present subjunctive or the aorist subjunctive,
> depending on aspect (with aorist subjunctive being more common).
Do you still want to preserve aspects?
> On 2/4/06, Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > th hesitates between t and f<T, e.g.
> > biblioteka, orfografiya, and, funny teologiya but feofaniya ("theophany").
>
> Perhaps based on the date of the borrowing?
Rather on the source: /f/ directly from Greek, /t/ through Latin and/or Polish.
> > To add a particle _méno_ from the participial suffix?
>
> Sounds like an idea.
Glad you support the suggestion. It is meant to be a particle, not a flexion.
> > A side note - I still miss plurals.
>
> Yes. Even fairly analytical English has retained them, after all!
>
> > Any alternative suggestions? Maybe to indicate it with a
> > different form of the article, e.g. _tus_?
>
> Or how about going the neuter route and using the article _ta_ and a
> noun ending -a?
Article _ta_ is OK, but if we still need a suffix for pl. on nouns, it may well
be _-s_ - see acc. pl.
> > Shall we have different forms for subject and object?
>
> I say yes, on the analogy of, say, English and French.
>
> As for position, though, I'd probably put personal pronouns after the
> verb, as with normal nouns -- "ego vlepi afton" rather than "ego ton
> vlepi"; "ego dini afto se sena" rather than "ego sou to dini".
Hmm, I like the French way more :(
> > Oh yes, what about deponential verbs and verbs in -mi? I see MG mostly
> > substitute them.
>
> I'd vote to integrate the ones in -mi into ones in -o.
As the example above? AG _didomi_ > MG _dino_ > GSF _díni_? Sounds fine.
> > Also the 3rd declension nouns have often changed to
> > something more usable in MG: _polis_,
> > gen. _poleos_ > _poli_. Shall we use the modeern form,
> > or the ancient one?
>
> Both!
>
> Modern Greek typically regularised such forms based on the accusative,
> so if we do the same, the result is the same. So "N polis, G poleos, A
> polin" becomes simply "poli" (accustive -n's being dropped as a
> general rule anyway), and "N patir, G patros, A patera" becomes
> "patera". Nouns in -tis would become -tita, as in modern Greek. etc.
> etc.
Yes, the result is the same, but is the final -i in _polí_ 'city' eta or iota?
Shall we still have longer stem in case "N charis, G charitos, A charin" - that
is "chari" as in MG, or "charita" by analogy with "elpida"?
Ta kaló tató euchís (euchás?),
-- Yitzik
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:36:43 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
I received Ray's msg already after I had sent my reply to Philip, so I need to
reply to one more msg in the thread (still in the daily quota, I suppose).
R A Brown wrote:
> I feel we've give this quite an airing, shown how the sort of way it
> could go and also thrown up some of the problems involved. I feel we
> have, may be, given ideas for possible conlangs.
I agree. I may stop at this stage. It was refreshing, anyway. Thanks to all
participants.
> Isaac Penzev wrote:
> If the AG forms are retained. Even then it is not so simple as both _es_
> and _eis_ are used in the ancient language. Which do we pick, and why.
Koine offers _eis_, does it make Koine a third source in row with AG and MG?
> In MG _en_ and _ek_ have gone, and _es_ has become _se_ with a much
> extended range of use similar to that of _a(d)_ in the modern Romance langs.
Again, it depends on definition, what exactly is MG - only Dimotiki, or
Katharevousa too? Because my (Neo)Greek-Russian dictionary lists both _en_ and
_ek_.
> > Verbs are conjugated as follows:
> > salta jumps
> > saltare to jump
> > saltato jumped
> > saltante jumping
> > salta! jump!
> > </quoting>
>
> Um - sine flexione??? Or may be it's agglutination - but if so, we shall
> surely get some odd forms:
> scribe, scribere, *scribeto*, scribente, scribe!
> dormi, dormire, dormito, *dorminte*, dormi!
> etc.
>
> _scribeto_ is particularly odd. If LSF had _scripto_ then it ain't 'sine
> flexione'.
Agree with all my heart. It's agglutinativity, thus producing rather odd forms.
> >>>A side note - I still miss plurals. The word _polý_ seems a bit
> overloaded.
>
> The Chinese, who are not an inconsiderable number of speakers, get on
> fine without it. As do the Japanese, and many others - seems to me that
> possible 1/3 of the world's population manage without a grammatical
> plural ending. Personally I do not see the problem.
Ok. Plurals are too eurocentric ;) but then Greek is still helluva European :)))
All auxlangs like this must die <evil grin>.
> > Yes, I was not clear enough. I knew those were two different groups.
> > So, strike out mi-verbs, and take deponent in 3rd form? Like _dínate_?
>
> Not me - I would assume an active form.
Turning _dynamai_ into _dyni_, pronounced the same as _dini_ 'to give'. Lotsa
troubles...
> > Beta-code?
>
> Yes, it has, i understand, become the de_facto standard for ASCII
> notation among classicists.
>
> >Can you enlighten us about this system?
>
> See:
> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/BetaCode.html
Eucharisto!
> Philip Newton wrote:
> > and the
> > ambiguous words are probably not worse than e.g. having both "invalid"
> > and "invalid" in English. (For example, "khoros" being either "dance"
> > or "place" in modern Greek, or "pisti" being either "faith" or the
> > subjunctive of "to be convinced".)
>
> Umm - one could do as in Russian where the acute accent in used in texts
> for learners, but omitted in normal printing.
That may solve the problem. I should only mention, that stress is used even in
normal Russian (and Ukrainian) printing when there is need to disambiguate the
meanings like _зáмок_ "castle" vs. _замóк_ "lock", or
_болÑÑÑÑ
_ "big.GEN.PL" vs.
_бóлÑÑиÑ
"greater.GEN.PL".
> > Or just ditch imperfect altogether and simply have a
> > future/present/past distinction. Heck, my German idiolect does without
> > the imperfect in quite a few cases, substituting the perfect instead.
>
> Yes, many German dialects do, i understand, and IIRC so does Afrikaans.
> Yes, I go along with that suggestion.
Yiddish does the same. Ok, it may work.
> > And either the present subjunctive or the aorist subjunctive,
> > depending on aspect (with aorist subjunctive being more common).
>
> Not if it's 'sine flexion' - we'll have to forget aspect, or show it
> some other way, methinks.
Down with aspect!
> >>ACTIVE & PASSIVE
> >>here I am stuck. MG still uses synthetic passives. Obviously GSF cannot.
> >>All the above, of course, is indicative - no problem. Could the passive
> >>be formed using an auxiliary verb such as 'receive' or 'suffer'?
> >
> > Or "become", as in German?
>
> Yes, indeed. I quite like it.
Ok, but caveat: _ginomai_ is deponent.
> > On 2/4/06, Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>Shall we have different forms for subject and object?
> >
> > I say yes, on the analogy of, say, English and French.
>
> Neither language is 'sine flexione', especially French!
No, that was not me!!!
> Like Isaac, I feel I now need a break - besides my Brsc/Piashi is
> becoming more and more neglected :=(
Let us shake hands, and wish all the best one to another. Actual conlanging is
waiting, to say nothing about the Real LifeTM...
-- Isaac Penzev aka Yitzik
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 09:12:12 -0800
From: Rick Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Ro booklet "Roap" online temporarily
Tadaima.
For a week or so I've got a brochure about the a priori conlang Ro on my web
site. For those of you who don't remember Ro, it's a conlang that catgorizes
ideas and each word indicates what category it's in by its first syllable, e.g.
all the words beginning with "lu" are plant species or words pertaining to
plants. The grammar and syntax of Ro are just a straightforward encoding of
English.
The document is question is "Roap" which was published in 1921. The URL is
http://www.rick.harrison.net/langlab/Roap1921.pdf
I can't leave it there permanently for space/bandwidth reasons. If anyone is
willing to give it a permanent home please let me know.
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:58:15 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: TECH: Unicode support (was Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re:
Which language is this? (once again)))
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 07:37:15 -0500, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>> Hindi, written (as one might expect) in Devanagari.
>
> Ooh. That would have been cool if it had come through. I'd love to
> have a browser that dealt with all the complications of Devanagari. :)
I use Opera from http://www.opera.com/ which has the best Unicode support
of every browser that I have tried, and I've been through quite a few (it
does Plane 1 without a single configuration change, for instance). Opera
is a great program, combining a web browser with clients for email,
Usenet, IRC and RSS in one application, with a really clean and tidy user
interface, and all (of course) with the same excellent Unicode support. I
could ask for a more powerful and general purpose filtering mechanism, but
it's quite far from a deal breaker, and it does work once you get used to
it. Oh, it doesn't render Ruby, which may or may not be a deal breaker for
some people.
Add to it a decent range of fonts from http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/
and some configuration of font choice within Opera, and you'll be good to
go. Alan Wood's site is without doubt the very best Unicode resource site
I have ever found.
Of course, this all presupposes Windows. Linux does crazy and apparently
random things with fonts and font substitution when dealing with Unicode.
It's quite spectacularly broken, espectially for something so proud of its
internationalization and localaization efforts. I can't speak for OSX,
unfortunately, but I expect Apple to have spent some time getting it more
or less right.
Paul
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 16:23:08 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: Unicode support (was Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re:
Which language is this? (once again)))
On 2/5/06, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can't speak for OSX, unfortunately, but I expect Apple to have spent some
> time getting it more
> or less right.
Yeah, there's some weird interaction between OS X and Firefox in this
regard. OS X has Devanagari support, and Safari shows them fine, but
FIrefox doesn't seem to know how to find the right font to use.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 00:14:31 +0100
From: Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Empaths?
Sai Emrys wrote:
> As a potentially complete tangent: do any of you happen to be empaths?
[---CUT---]
> I know at least a couple conlangers other than me who are, and
> wondering whether this was another of those odd convergences (viz. the
> gay population) or just a coincidence of my acquaintance.
Hmmm... I hope you realize some people may now think that you're weird.
(This an euphemism for "insane".) Apart from that, count me in. ;-) It
doesn't happen all the time but sometimes I just know. That's why the
"inhabitants" of my conculture are empaths too, just like me.
ObConlang: Maybe we, conlangers, have communication problems --It's far
from easy being an empath amongst "deaf" people.-- and that's why we
spend our time inventing new ways to express ourselves?
/tul'xeje tö'kja./ [tu4(u)'Zeje tO:'kja] = I'll express myself (later).
--
==================
Remi Villatel
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
==================
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 15:17:55 +0000
From: Hanuman Zhang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Empaths?
on 2/5/06 8:03 AM, Sai Emrys at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> As a potentially complete tangent: do any of you happen to be empaths?
Yes, too an alarming degree...
> Briefly (and crudely) defined, this is basically someone who feels
> others' emotions in an unusually... direct way. != sympathy. You would
> probably know if you are.
I get overwhelmed by others' emotions. Ferinstance, group therapy drives
me bonkers. All that raw, unbridled emotions that some people are so ready
to disclose just seems like too much for me to handle all at once.
> I know at least a couple conlangers other than me who are, and
> wondering whether this was another of those odd convergences (viz. the
> gay population) or just a coincidence of my acquaintance.
>
> - Sai
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 15:48:12 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Conlangs-Conf] Speakers, topics, & request for help
Hello everyone.
So far, I have eight almost-certain speakers and five potential ones.
Included are:
Doug Ball; Sally Caves; Suzette Elgin (telepresence); Sai Emrys; Matt
Pearson; David Peterson; Mark Shoulson; and John Quijada.
Topics on the program at present (very summarized & not at all complete!):
* word & paradigm morphology, applied
* LFG vs HPSG, applied
* conlanging & technology
* conlanging as 'play', 'work', 'craft', and 'art' (sociological perspective)
* non-linear full-2d writing systems - theory & potential technologies
* applying cognitive linguistics / cognitive science principles (frame
semantics, metaphor, chunking, etc) to conlang design
* understanding and applying Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis
* cosmogenesis as applied to language design (i.e. how culture and
language interact, and how to design the two to mesh well &
synergistically)
* Volapuk
* semantic primes across various conlangs
The date for the conference will be almost certainly April 22 and/or
23. Not certain yet whether it will be one day or two - pending more
discussion amongst the speakers. Those dates are tentative inasmuch as
I need to confirm that we can reserve space and tech for the event on
those days; April 22nd is also Cal Day and as such will be a very
active day on campus. I'll post more when I have confirmations.
If you are interested in attending or participating, and haven't yet
sent me the PreReg form, please do so now - even if your plans are
tentative at this point.
Also, I NEED HELP. Currently I am doing this entirely on my own. I
would appreciate people to help with various aspects of the
conference; particularly:
* 1-2 additional signatories (must be currently registered UCB students)
* soliciting sponsorship from businesses - local or otherwise [e.g.
Intel, Apple, Mensa, Esperanto Society, KLI, etc.] - including e.g.
cut-rate or fully donated food/drink, copies, tshirts, pins, flags,
etc, as well as straight cash (I have a budget that can be shown to
potential sponsors) - in return for campus "presence", & potentially
ads in the conference materials
* assisting with setup the day(s) of the conference:
- transporting supplies (food, plates, tables, copies, etc) to and
from the conference
- setting up the same
- making posterboards and banners - e.g. for the registration / intake
table, a large butcherpaper banner or two for hanging outside to draw
people in, signs to direct people within the conference, etc
- running the video camera(s)
- general assistance during talks - e.g. distributing papers, getting
people the mic when they want to ask questions, etc
- answering general questions, e.g. where is the (bathroom / ATM / Sai
/ conference room / restaurant / clock / etc)
- running the registration table - sign people in, collect money if
applicable, hand out nametags and conference material, etc
- directing/moderating individual panels - people interested in the
topics and can ensure that all speakers play nice, stay on topic, keep
the conversation moving, collect / filter audience questions, etc.
* T-shirt design
* pamphlet design - prettifying & organizing something that will
include a schedule, attendees / speaker list w/ information & brief
bios, a sketch map of the local area highlighting relevant bits
(various banks' ATMs, local restaurants, bus stops / parking areas,
etc)
* general assistance
If you can do any or all of the above, please let me know ASAP.
- Sai
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 15:54:41 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Empaths?
On 2/5/06, Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hmmm... I hope you realize some people may now think that you're weird.
> (This an euphemism for "insane".)
*snortlaugh* Dear sir, it is far, far to late for me to worry about
that. :-P (You quite obviously have not met me in person. ;-))
Also, I could point out that I posted this on a conlang list - thus
anyone throwing stones like that would probably need to be a bit
careful about walking on broken glass afterwards...
> ObConlang: Maybe we, conlangers, have communication problems --It's far
> from easy being an empath amongst "deaf" people.-- and that's why we
> spend our time inventing new ways to express ourselves?
>
> /tul'xeje tö'kja./ [tu4(u)'Zeje tO:'kja] = I'll express myself (later).
*nod* I find that it's only occasionally frustrating. It's rare to
meet others, but one gets used to that. (My empath 'dar is way better
than my gaydar, also [alas?].) Still know what you mean by the 'deaf'
bit though. :-/
- Sai
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 01:20:25 +0100
From: Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
Paul Bennett wrote:
> Discover life.
/söje söle rayhça keo'rja./
söje söle rayhça keo 'rja.
GNR EQUA life IMP:RTR=2SG
= Experiment life.
I guessed this sentence had nothing to do with the idea of discovering
life on another planet. ;-)
> None of us is a strong as all of us.
/çake sule kliçu tiyö'ski-çaki./
çake sule kliçu tiyö 'ski-çaki.
1PE.PROPR EQUA strength IND:ATMP=ANUM=1PE
The pronouns are collective plural so a literal translation can be:
= No-one amongst our group possesses the strength of our (whole) group.
> I don't know, I only work here.
In a twisted way:
/keja suku göko kebis ; ska jeo sule viflij./
keja suku göko kebis
1SG.POSS here only work
ska jeo sule viflij
ANUM IMPL:RTR EQUA knowledge
= Here (is) only my work (place), (there is) no consecutive knowledge
(from this fact).
Interlinear lexicon:
1SG = I
2SG = thou (SinGular "you")
1PE = we (collective Plural Exclusive)
ANUM = ANUMeral (quantifier: zero in number or quantity)
ATMP = ATeMPoral (tense)
EQUA = EQUAtive (particle)
IMP = IMPerative (Mode)
IMPL = IMPLicative (Mode expressing a consequence)
IND = INDicative (Mode)
POSS = POSSessive (alienable possession)
PROPR = PROPRietive (inalienable possession)
RTR = ReTRospective (tense)
UNQ = UNQuantitative (quantifier: some in quantity, not plural)
/kejo zulhfa lul, xe kulavo tö'kja./
[kejo: zu5.fa 4u4] [Ze: ku4avo tO:'kja]
= It will be good to be back.
--
==================
Remi Villatel
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
==================
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 17:05:08 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Conlangs-Conf] Show-off pamphlets?
One idea that came up in talking to David Peterson (and others) was to
include some forum by which attendees (and *maybe* non-attendees too?)
could wax prideful and show off their languages.
My concern as organizer is to ensure the *intent* of the original "no
prostelyzation/pimping" ban is fulfilled. That is, I do not want to
have or condone any flamewars of the sort that divided CONLANG and
AUXLANG; nor to have too much online time taken by material that is
not really usable / applicable to anyone except the speaker, or the
speaker's particular "school". (I liken talking about one's own
languages to mothers talking about their babies. Perhaps you can see a
certain resemblance...)
That being said, we still do take a certain interest in each others' progeny.
So, I'd like suggestions on a potential way to address this.
Potentials so far are, e.g.:
* a pamphlet included in the registration pack which is basically a
collection of 1-2 pages per person, filled however desired, by
attendees; these would be used to "show off" their languages or other
projects. (I'm thinking something like a customized version of the
Omniglot language pages - highlighting what's special, unique, or
otherwise cool about your particular language.) This would be
cross-referenced with the participant / attendee list in the main
pamphlet, so that you could hunt down the creator yourself over free
time (breaks, lunch, etc) and get them to talk some more about their
obviously awesome language.
This would avoid boredom factor in that you are not obligated to show
interest in (or spend time on) a language that does not appeal to you,
but would also put more burden on the creators / fans to do such
discussion on their own time.
* Some sort of discussion panel / sharing time in the conference
itself, at which (and *only* at which) the aforementioned ban would be
lifted. Anyone present would be welcome to speak for a few minutes
about their language(s), field questions about them, etc, and
collaborate with others developing similar languages. This part could
potentially be broken off into separate groups - e.g. artlangers,
auxlangers, etc. - to ensure that they are at least trying to achieve
similar goals and therefore their languages are more likely to
cross-fertilize.
Some difficulties with this would be giving everyone enough time to
describe their languages cogently while still fitting the session into
a reasonable timeslot; avoiding the sorts of disagreements that come
when presenting a concept to a group of people that does not
necessarily share your goals; etc.
* ...?
We are likely to already have a panel discussing conlang art & craft
in a more general / meta / theoretical sense; what I'm asking here is
specifically how to include *particular* languages, in a way that is
both useful and defuses the potential... conflict and/or boredom.
Suggestions? Comments?
- Sai
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:53:24 -0800
From: Erika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Empaths?
--- Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As a potentially complete tangent: do any of you
> happen to be empaths?
>
> Briefly (and crudely) defined, this is basically
> someone who feels
> others' emotions in an unusually... direct way. !=
> sympathy. You would
> probably know if you are.
>
> I know at least a couple conlangers other than me
> who are, and
> wondering whether this was another of those odd
> convergences (viz. the
> gay population) or just a coincidence of my
> acquaintance.
>
> - Sai
>
That perfectly desribes me. Hmm.. eerie.
-- Erika
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:19:16 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
On 2/5/06, Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Philip Newton chi gráfi:
>
> > Or how about going the neuter route and using the article _ta_ and a
> > noun ending -a?
>
> Article _ta_ is OK, but if we still need a suffix for pl. on nouns, it may
> well
> be _-s_ - see acc. pl.
Acc. pl. of masculine nouns -- neuter nouns have -a, which was what I
based that on. I suppose it depends on the model you take. Or maybe
-es on the basis of MG fem. acc. pl. as well as masc. acc. pl. of
previously third-declension nouns?
> > > Oh yes, what about deponential verbs and verbs in -mi? I see MG mostly
> > > substitute them.
> >
> > I'd vote to integrate the ones in -mi into ones in -o.
>
> As the example above? AG _didomi_ > MG _dino_ > GSF _díni_? Sounds fine.
Or _dídi_ (also an alternative in MG).
> Shall we still have longer stem in case "N charis, G charitos, A charin" -
> that
> is "chari" as in MG, or "charita" by analogy with "elpida"?
Ah, a good question. If we go strictly by the "acc.pl." route, it'd be
"chari", probably.
> > I feel we've give this quite an airing, shown how the sort of way it
> > could go and also thrown up some of the problems involved. I feel we
> > have, may be, given ideas for possible conlangs.
>
> I agree. I may stop at this stage. It was refreshing, anyway. Thanks to all
> participants.
And from me. Interesting how a throw-away comment generated such a
wonderful discussion :)
> > >>ACTIVE & PASSIVE
> > >>here I am stuck. MG still uses synthetic passives. Obviously GSF cannot.
> > >>All the above, of course, is indicative - no problem. Could the passive
> > >>be formed using an auxiliary verb such as 'receive' or 'suffer'?
> > >
> > > Or "become", as in German?
> >
> > Yes, indeed. I quite like it.
>
> Ok, but caveat: _ginomai_ is deponent.
In MG, though, its aorist stem is active in form, though: _tha ginei,
egine_. So one could simply make it into _gíni_ in GSF, I think.
> > Like Isaac, I feel I now need a break - besides my Brsc/Piashi is
> > becoming more and more neglected :=(
>
> Let us shake hands, and wish all the best one to another. Actual conlanging is
> waiting, to say nothing about the Real Life...
All the best!
Me kaló cheretismós,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 07:37:15 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
On 2/4/06, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On 2/4/06, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> á á á ááá
áᢠá áá
áá°á«áµ á¥á» á«áááá¢
> >
> > That first one is still all question marks here. What is it meant to be?
>
> The script is Ge'ez. IIRC the language is Amharic.
Ah! Ethiopianese. :) Got it.
> > This particular phrase is a variant - the usual English version I've
> > heard has "don't ask me" rather than "I don't know".
>
> Yeah. The former is British (to my ears), and the latter is American (to
> my ears).
To your ears, perhaps, but that seems unlikely to me. I've been a
'Murkin all my life and had only heard the former ("Don't ask me")
version prior to seeing your list.
> Hindi, written (as one might expect) in Devanagari.
Ooh. That would have been cool if it had come through. I'd love to
have a browser that dealt with all the complications of Devanagari. :)
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:18:04 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ro booklet "Roap" online temporarily
On 2/5/06, Rick Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For a week or so I've got a brochure about the a priori conlang Ro on my web
> site. ......
> The document is question is "Roap" which was published in 1921. The URL is
>
> http://www.rick.harrison.net/langlab/Roap1921.pdf
>
> I can't leave it there permanently for space/bandwidth reasons. If anyone is
> willing to give it a permanent home please let me know.
Likely enough Project Gutenberg would be happy
to take it, since it was published in the U.S. before
1923. I'll forward this to a couple of people
who have been involved in getting new books
into the PG Distributed Proofreaders process.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:57:56 -0800
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Translations: work slogans (was Re: Which language is this? (once
again))
--- Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> æä¸ç¥éãæåªå¨è¿éå·¥ä½ã
> I donât know. I only work here.
>
>
> Paul
Ugh. Perversified characters.
Adam who lived in Taiwan (Okay, so olny one gets
really mangled, it still sticks out.)
Pochini ninadud ul Jezu in ul Betuemi djal Juda in ils djis djul Errodu ul regu
iñi! aviniruns junis maguis djil ojindi ad al Jerosolima, dichindu: «¿Jundi
esti ul regu djuls Ivreus fin ninadud? Pervia avemus spepadu al su steja in il
ojindi ed avemus avinidu adorari ad sivi.»
Mach 2:1-2
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:14:15 -0800
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Empaths?
--- Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As a potentially complete tangent: do any of you
> happen to be empaths?
>
> Briefly (and crudely) defined, this is basically
> someone who feels
> others' emotions in an unusually... direct way. !=
> sympathy. You would
> probably know if you are.
I wouldn't consider myself an empath in the Deanna
Troi sense, but I pick up on others feelings to a
sometimes distressing extent.
Adam
Pochini ninadud ul Jezu in ul Betuemi djal Juda in ils djis djul Errodu ul regu
iñi! aviniruns junis maguis djil ojindi ad al Jerosolima, dichindu: «¿Jundi
esti ul regu djuls Ivreus fin ninadud? Pervia avemus spepadu al su steja in il
ojindi ed avemus avinidu adorari ad sivi.»
Mach 2:1-2
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:14:21 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Conlangs-Conf] Show-off pamphlets?
* Sai Emrys said on 2006-02-06 02:05:08 +0100
> My concern as organizer is to ensure the *intent* of the original "no
> prostelyzation/pimping" ban is fulfilled.
/snip/
>
> * Some sort of discussion panel / sharing time in the conference
> itself, at which (and *only* at which) the aforementioned ban would be
> lifted.
Aka. lunch/dinner :) People will be comparing notes at that time anyway,
no matter the rules.
t.
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:18:30 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Empaths?
Quoting Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> As a potentially complete tangent: do any of you happen to be empaths?
>
> Briefly (and crudely) defined, this is basically someone who feels
> others' emotions in an unusually... direct way. != sympathy. You would
> probably know if you are.
>
> I know at least a couple conlangers other than me who are, and
> wondering whether this was another of those odd convergences (viz. the
> gay population) or just a coincidence of my acquaintance.
I'm no empath in this sense - if anything, I'm subaverage at discerning other
people's feelings. Neither am I left-handed, homosexual, or Lithuanian, but I
do have a beard nowadays, so maybe I'm nonetheless turning into a stereotypical
conlanger.
Andreas
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