There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] Show-off pamphlets?
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Alienable/inalienable possession
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. opinions on PIE based langs
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: OT: Empaths?
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: opinions on PIE based langs
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Old Shirt Re: [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] Show-off pamphlets?
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Ro booklet "Roap" online temporarily
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Ro booklet "Roap" online temporarily
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: OT: Empaths?
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: opinions on PIE based langs
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Ro booklet "Roap" online temporarily
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: opinions on PIE based langs
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Old Shirt Re: [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Alienable/inalienable possession
From: Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Marking tones in conlangs
From: "Joseph B." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: Marking tones in conlangs
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Marking tones in conlangs
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24. Re: Marking tones in conlangs
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Marking tones in conlangs
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:51:06 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Conlangs-Conf] Show-off pamphlets?
On 2/6/06, taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * Sai Emrys said on 2006-02-06 02:05:08 +0100
> > * Some sort of discussion panel / sharing time in the conference
> > itself, at which (and *only* at which) the aforementioned ban would be
> > lifted.
>
> Aka. lunch/dinner :) People will be comparing notes at that time anyway,
> no matter the rules.
Of course. I'm just wondering whether to include *online* time for it also.
- Sai
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 17:19:03 -0500
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Alienable/inalienable possession
On Sat, 4 Feb 2006 12:57:38 -0500, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
>
>> On 2/4/06, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Hi there,
>> >
>> > I recently started a new project, Ukele [1], which is
>> > supposed to have alienable/inalienable posession. I wonder
>> > how would one express to have something or to give
>> > something away that is inalienable? E.g. a heart transplant
>> > or something? Body parts are usually inalienable, after all.
>>
>> KÄlen has inalienable possession of body parts. The standard, unmarked
>> way to say 'heart' is 'samÄlle', which means 3p-'heart' or
>> 'his/her/someone's heart'. However, it is also possible to inflect
>> -mÄll- as an inanimate noun. This would be marked, people would look
>> at you funny, but in the context of a transplant, or the scientist's
>> jars of preserved body parts, it would make perfect sense. (snip exs.)
>
>Something like that IMO is probably the way to go...
>
>Timorese (aka Atoni, Dawan) has something similar-- inalienable poss. is
>marked with the suffixes -k, -m, -n (1,2,3 (sing.) resp.), generic
>with -f--thus atèn 'his/her heart/liver', atef 'heart/liver, in general'.
>I suppose as in, "We're having liver for dinner", perhaps "The dr. gave me
>a new heart", maybe "...shaped like a heart", but the available grammar is
>silent on the exact usage.
>
>Fijian of course has its lovely 4-way possession: 1. inalienable 2. edible
>3. drinkable 4. generic, alienable.
>=========================================================================
In one of my new languages, I'm just in the process of adding a 3rd
category besides alienable and inalienable: words that normally don't take
inalienable possession but can be modified so that they do. An example
would be the word for flower. The affixes for inalienable possessors are
the same as some verb affixes.
Jeff
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:33:14 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
Hello again.
Taliesin suggested I make this into a contest, which is probably a
good idea (it worked for the flag, ne?). So:
Submit to me or to CONLANG a design for T-shirts. This would probably
also be used for the cover of the conference packet.
I am not sure if I can swing it at this point, but if I can: the
winning designer gets a free one.
Feel free to incoporate the Conlang Flag, or to make up a name for the
conference as you like. The official sponsor group is the Language
Creation Society, which is only allowed to be referred to as a
"berkeley campus group" (if at all referencing Berkeley). It has no
logo at present; feel free to create one, or omit it that affiliation
entirely, as you like. The one thing you can't include is any UC /
Berkeley / Cal logo or trademark whatsoever - they're really picky
about the use thereof.
Future conferences may or may not be held at UC Berkeley - there is
some talk of a potential for its continuation elsewhere.
- Sai
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:09:26 +1100
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)
On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Andreas Johansson wrote:
[snip]
> > > Non-euroclonic auxlangs may be fun too, if people do not
> > > occupy with proselytizing, but treat them as artlangs...
> >
> > They could be, but I don't think GSF is really
> > non-euroclonic, but it would not be of the overdone
> > Romano-germanic type ;)
>
> Isn't there a Slavic-derived auxlang too? Called Slovio or some such?
>
> For a truly original euroclone IAL, I suggest celtico-baltic. ;)
>
> Andreas
It's Proto-Picto-Basque for me!
Regards,
Yahya
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:21:13 -0500
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: opinions on PIE based langs
grammar and vocab
case endings and the like
i am trying to make a lang off PIE
but it is a little difficult because of the lack of roots
but it is a (basicly)norse lang so it is a little easier
has anyone opinions?
or has anyone tried this before (i am sure someone has)
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:31:52 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Empaths?
--- In [email protected], Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Sai Emrys wrote:
>
> > As a potentially complete tangent: do any of you happen to be
empaths?
>[snip]
> ObConlang: Maybe we, conlangers, have communication problems --It's
far
> from easy being an empath amongst "deaf" people.-- and that's why we
> spend our time inventing new ways to express ourselves?
I'm "dumb" instead of "deaf". Nobody can tell what I'm feeling, even
when I really, really want them to, and put some effort into telling
them.
__
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:20:31 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
Sai Emrys wrote:
> Taliesin suggested I make this into a contest, which is probably a
> good idea (it worked for the flag, ne?). So:
>
> Submit to me or to CONLANG a design for T-shirts. This would probably
> also be used for the cover of the conference packet.
>
The last time we tried to do t-shirts, it was the motto "Fight linguistic
extinction-- invent a language!" in a variety of conlangs (those of members
at that point in time). I seem to recall ordering/paying for but never
receiving a couple...........:-(((
That motto (just in Engl.) might be a suitably non-denominational sort of
thing, perhaps with the conlang flag somewhere too.
I think someone else revived the multi-language idea, using Cafepress or
somesuch, but I didn't pursue that. It's probably in the Archive, perhaps
around 2002-3-- perhaps someone else remembers better....
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 21:46:02 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
Sounds like a good design to me. Perhaps as the slogan on the back side?
E.g.: black t-shirt; front side flag w/ border, under it some sort of
tagline about the conference; backside that slogan?
- Sai
On 2/6/06, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sai Emrys wrote:
> > Taliesin suggested I make this into a contest, which is probably a
> > good idea (it worked for the flag, ne?). So:
> >
> > Submit to me or to CONLANG a design for T-shirts. This would probably
> > also be used for the cover of the conference packet.
> >
> The last time we tried to do t-shirts, it was the motto "Fight linguistic
> extinction-- invent a language!" in a variety of conlangs (those of members
> at that point in time). I seem to recall ordering/paying for but never
> receiving a couple...........:-(((
>
> That motto (just in Engl.) might be a suitably non-denominational sort of
> thing, perhaps with the conlang flag somewhere too.
>
> I think someone else revived the multi-language idea, using Cafepress or
> somesuch, but I didn't pursue that. It's probably in the Archive, perhaps
> around 2002-3-- perhaps someone else remembers better....
>
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 07:49:58 +0100
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: opinions on PIE based langs
On 2/7/06, Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> i am trying to make a lang off PIE
[snip]
> or has anyone tried this before (i am sure someone has)
Degaspregos was such an attempt, I believe. It's a bit hard to find
information on it now, though.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:46:34 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
Sai wrote:
> Sounds like a good design to me. Perhaps as the slogan on the back side?
>
> E.g.: black t-shirt; front side flag w/ border, under it some sort of
> tagline about the conference; backside that slogan?
>
Sounds good; but maybe white shirts? how well will the flag show up on a
black background? (just asking...) (Also, it's possible white would be
cheaper than a color; dunno.....)
================================================
> On 2/6/06, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Fight linguistic
> > extinction-- invent a language!"....
> > That motto (just in Engl.) might be a suitably non-denominational sort
> > of
> > thing, perhaps with the conlang flag somewhere too.
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 23:11:45 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Old Shirt Re: [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
Roger wrote:
<<
I seem to recall ordering/paying for but never
receiving a couple...........:-(((
>>
I'm so sorry to hear that, Roger. I received my shirt. Who was
in charge of that effort? Does anyone know if Roger has any
recourse?
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 18:45:01 +1100
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Conlangs-Conf] Show-off pamphlets?
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 Sai Emrys wrote: [Conlangs-Conf] Show-off pamphlets?
>
> One idea that came up in talking to David Peterson (and others) was to
> include some forum by which attendees (and *maybe* non-attendees too?)
> could wax prideful and show off their languages.
>
> My concern as organizer is to ensure the *intent* of the original "no
> prostelyzation/pimping" ban is fulfilled. That is, I do not want to
> have or condone any flamewars of the sort that divided CONLANG and
> AUXLANG; nor to have too much online time taken by material that is
> not really usable / applicable to anyone except the speaker, or the
> speaker's particular "school". (I liken talking about one's own
> languages to mothers talking about their babies. Perhaps you can see a
> certain resemblance...)
>
> That being said, we still do take a certain interest in each
> others' progeny.
>
> So, I'd like suggestions on a potential way to address this.
>
> Potentials so far are, e.g.:
> * a pamphlet included in the registration pack which is basically a
> collection of 1-2 pages per person, filled however desired, by
> attendees; these would be used to "show off" their languages or other
> projects. (I'm thinking something like a customized version of the
> Omniglot language pages - highlighting what's special, unique, or
> otherwise cool about your particular language.) This would be
> cross-referenced with the participant / attendee list in the main
> pamphlet, so that you could hunt down the creator yourself over free
> time (breaks, lunch, etc) and get them to talk some more about their
> obviously awesome language.
Good idea! The pamphlet is in the registration
pack, right? How do you get to share these
'introductions' among the attendees so they're
useful in time for follow-up in person? Suggest
you include some set questions eg 'Translate the
Babel text' or at least 'Hallo! Take me to your
leader' ... Could you get the replies into a
database and on CD or available at a wiki on the
net? Could people fill in a form at a wiki on
the net, rather than your paper one? (Selfish
thought: then we conlangers who travel at less
than warp speed, so can't get there in time,
could also tune in.)
> This would avoid boredom factor in that you are not obligated to show
> interest in (or spend time on) a language that does not appeal to you,
> but would also put more burden on the creators / fans to do such
> discussion on their own time.
>
> * Some sort of discussion panel / sharing time in the conference
> itself, at which (and *only* at which) the aforementioned ban would be
> lifted. Anyone present would be welcome to speak for a few minutes
> about their language(s), field questions about them, etc, and
> collaborate with others developing similar languages. This part could
> potentially be broken off into separate groups - e.g. artlangers,
> auxlangers, etc. - to ensure that they are at least trying to achieve
> similar goals and therefore their languages are more likely to
> cross-fertilize.
If you get to run for two days, why not workshop
some new languages? Let people offer to moderate
a particular style of language, get attendees to
sign up for three choices of particular workshop,
run those that make from 4 to 8 participants, most
popular first (may need more rooms). Do this on
Day 2, so people have a chance to understand and
consider their choices. Co-developers could then
exchange email addresses for follow-up if desired.
> Some difficulties with this would be giving everyone enough time to
> describe their languages cogently while still fitting the session into
> a reasonable timeslot; avoiding the sorts of disagreements that come
> when presenting a concept to a group of people that does not
> necessarily share your goals; etc.
>
> * ...?
>
> We are likely to already have a panel discussing conlang art & craft
> in a more general / meta / theoretical sense; what I'm asking here is
> specifically how to include *particular* languages, in a way that is
> both useful and defuses the potential... conflict and/or boredom.
>
> Suggestions? Comments?
>
> - Sai
>
BTW, Sai, I watched some of your first video.
It was enjoyable and I will go back for more.
Two things: please get the volume level up a
bit higher! And will you be taping the conf?
OT: One of our three dogs is a total empath,
as is my wife. If she doesn't like what she's
hearing, she can't look at the person who's
sending the bad vibes. Self-protection.
Regards,
Yahya
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 18:45:01 +1100
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Ro booklet "Roap" online temporarily
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 Rick Harrison wrote:
>
> Tadaima.
>
> For a week or so I've got a brochure about the a priori
> conlang Ro on my web site. For those of you who don't
> remember Ro, it's a conlang that catgorizes ideas and each
> word indicates what category it's in by its first syllable,
> e.g. all the words beginning with "lu" are plant species or
> words pertaining to plants. The grammar and syntax of Ro are
> just a straightforward encoding of English.
>
> The document is question is "Roap" which was published in
> 1921. The URL is
>
> http://www.rick.harrison.net/langlab/Roap1921.pdf
>
> I can't leave it there permanently for space/bandwidth
> reasons. If anyone is willing to give it a permanent home
> please let me know.
>
Hi Rick,
That brings back memories! I first met Roap
when it was about half its present age - Dad
had a copy of the same document. I was so
impressed at its logic - for a few days -
that I tried to talk my best friend into using
it with me. But altho he was smart enough to
help me improve Monopoly into a game that
incorporated two new rows of streets between
the stations, that met in a stock market at
Times Square, he was hopeless with languages.
Anyway, I soon found that without some agreement
on basic categories, vocabulary development
would be impossible. Nice idea, but.
Sorry I have no webspace to host this for you!
Has the copyright expired yet?
Regards,
Yahya
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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 05:50:40 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ro booklet "Roap" online temporarily
On 2/7/06, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 Rick Harrison wrote:
> > For a week or so I've got a brochure about the a priori
> > conlang Ro on my web site. For those of you who don't
....
> > The document is question is "Roap" which was published in
> > 1921. The URL is
> >
> > http://www.rick.harrison.net/langlab/Roap1921.pdf
> Sorry I have no webspace to host this for you!
> Has the copyright expired yet?
Published in the U.S. before 1923, it's out of copyright.
I'm talking to a couple of guys who have worked on
putting old Esperanto books through Project Gutenberg;
one of them has volunteered to scan it, but wants
better page images, if possible, than are in Rick's PDF file.
We might put it through Distributed Proofreaders, but
that might be too much overhead for an 18-page booklet.
On the other hand one does need at least two pairs of
eyeballs to proofread the scan of a book like this.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang.htm
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 21:55:06 +1100
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Empaths?
On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 tomhchappell wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Sai Emrys wrote:
> >
> > > As a potentially complete tangent: do any of you happen to be
> empaths?
> >[snip]
> > ObConlang: Maybe we, conlangers, have communication problems --It's
> far
> > from easy being an empath amongst "deaf" people.-- and
> that's why we
> > spend our time inventing new ways to express ourselves?
>
> I'm "dumb" instead of "deaf". Nobody can tell what I'm feeling, even
> when I really, really want them to, and put some effort into telling
> them.
That's OK, Tom, some of us know EXACTLY how
you feel! ;-)
ObConlang: Remi, maybe we, conlangers, DON'T
have communication problems, except perhaps
a greater awareness of how _everyone_ has a
communication problem - so we try harder.
I think the conference thread Sai mentioned
on the sociology of conlanging may be more
informative, tho how much hard fact do we
have? And we _all need_ new ways to express
ourselves - look how poorly we do, by and
large.
Regards,
Yahya
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:24:46 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: opinions on PIE based langs
On Tue, Feb 7, 2006 at 1:49 AM, Philip Newton wrote:
> On 2/7/06, Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > i am trying to make a lang off PIE
> [snip]
> > or has anyone tried this before (i am sure someone has)
>
> Degaspregos was such an attempt, I believe. It's a bit hard to find
> information on it now, though.
Thagojian is an attempt, lexically, though the grammar is rather divergent,
being somewhat more like Turkish or Hungarian, AIUI.
The American Heritage Dictionary is online at http://www.bartleby.com/61/ and
Appendix 1 is a pretty good source of PIE roots, though the notation is
slightly dumbed-down IMO.
For grammar, I recommend RSP Beekes' _Comparative Indo-European Linguistics_
http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/1556195052
I also recommend Calvert Watkins' _How To Kill A Dragon_
http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0195144139 which is a great guide to the
mythology and early literature of the PIE languages.
Paul
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:42:43 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ro booklet "Roap" online temporarily
* Rick Harrison said on 2006-02-05 18:12:12 +0100
> For a week or so I've got a brochure about the a priori conlang Ro on
> my web site.
>
> The document is question is "Roap" which was published in 1921. The URL is
>
> http://www.rick.harrison.net/langlab/Roap1921.pdf
>
> I can't leave it there permanently for space/bandwidth reasons. If
> anyone is willing to give it a permanent home please let me know.
I certainly have space and bandwidth to host it, but the robust way is
of course to store it several places.
Here ya go: http://taliesin.nvg.org/mirrors/
t.
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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:18:16 -0500
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: opinions on PIE based langs
well i already have some words generated
like (gonna use bad html in case anyone wonders what this is)
mæn - my/mine
þæn - your/yours
osr - god
os - godess
såunr - son
not gonna give pronunciation cause i am at school and they have
blocks on the 'good' sites
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Message: 19
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:36:11 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Old Shirt Re: [Conlangs-Conf] T-Shirt Design Contest
David Peterson wrote:
> Roger wrote:
> <<
> I seem to recall ordering/paying for but never
> receiving a couple...........:-(((
> >>
>
> I'm so sorry to hear that, Roger. I received my shirt. Who was
> in charge of that effort? Does anyone know if Roger has any
> recourse?
>
I appreciate your concern. HOWEVER...I spoke too soon. As I was thinking
about this, I seemed to recall that the person involved DID refund my money,
which was a whopping $17 or so. I don't know what the glitch was; certainly,
I'd rather have had the t-shirt :-) So it's really a "never mind..."
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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:57:49 -0500
From: Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Alienable/inalienable possession
On 2/4/06, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wonder
> how would one express to have something or to give
> something away that is inalienable? ... However,
> according to Payne it seems to me that it's no problem to
> give away something that is inalienable, it's just specially
> marked for inalienability. I am confused. Does anyone care
> to explain?
>
Here's what might be confusing you. Inalienability and alienability
are not properties of things -- they're properties of a
possessor-possessum relationship. Now, it's frequent that there are
certain words -- body parts, in particular -- that are almost always
inalienably possessed, and sometimes we think of a "class of
inalienably possessed nouns". But it's not a "noun class" in the
sense that there's some property ALIENABLE that some words always have
and some words don't.
Instead, inalienability is something that obtains *between* a
possessor and a possessum. So you might not be able to predict, for a
given possessum, whether it's inalienably possessed or not -- it
depends on how it's possessed. The following is from Itzaj Maya:
u-k'ik'-el -- his blood
u-k'ik' -- his blood (presumably outside his body)
u-tzo'otz-el -- his hair (on his head)
u-tzo'otz -- his hair (on the table)
The first of these are marked for (something like) inalienable
possession, the second inalienable. I the distinction here depends on
whether it's currently in his body or not. Here's a few from
Lichtenberk's A Grammar of Manam (1983):
málo-gu -- "My breechclout" (but only when I am wearing it)
málo né-gu -- "My breechclout" (otherwise)
nanarita?á-gu -- My story, a story about me
nanári né-gu -- My story, a story I invented, told, like
paNaná-gu -- My head, refers to a part of my anatomy
paNána ?aná-gu -- My head, refers to a head meant for my consumption
paNána né-gu -- My head, may refer to a head I found, cut off, or even
to a head I will give my dog to eat
(That second-to-last is the "edible possession" that was mentioned
earlier for Fijian.)
Now, just like noun classes there can be a lot of irregularity...
sometimes things take an unexpected marking. (In Manam, for example,
you can't inalienably possess a "modern" article of clothing like a
shirt, even when you're wearing it.) And houses ("pera") require the
edible construction!
Keep in mind that nothing *prevents* you from making up a language in
which you have a "noun class" of inalienably-possessed nouns, which
must always take inalienably possession markings, and a class of
alienably-possessed ones, which never do. It's entirely possible,
although I know of no examples. You're just not *restricted* to that.
Hope this helps,
-- Pat
BTW: If anyone wants a copy, I wrote a paper recently on the
interaction between obligatory possession and noun incorporation,
specifically on the incorporation of body parts into transitive verbs.
I figure it's the sort of "exotica" that list folks might enjoy.
Give me a mail off-list if you want a copy.
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Message: 21
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:08:01 -0800
From: "Joseph B." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Marking tones in conlangs
I'm curious to know how others here mark tones in any tonal conlangs they
have created.
Thanks.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 22
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 18:24:24 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Marking tones in conlangs
Hi!
"Joseph B." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I'm curious to know how others here mark tones in any tonal conlangs they
> have created.
In Qthyn|gai, the phonemic tone is marked with diacritics (acute,
grave, none). The phonetic tone has to be inferred (there are some
(simple) tone sandhi rules).
**Henrik
--
Relay 13 is running:
http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html
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Message: 23
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:26:19 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Marking tones in conlangs
So far, the only thing tone has done in my languages has been to
indicate direct opposites in meaning (in other words, negate the
sentence). In Latin letters, I just put a - symbol before the negated
word. In my script, I counted it as a completely different character
(it was a syllabary).
On 2/7/06, Joseph B. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm curious to know how others here mark tones in any tonal conlangs they
> have created.
>
> Thanks.
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Message: 24
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 19:35:35 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Marking tones in conlangs
Joseph B. wrote:
> I'm curious to know how others here mark tones in any tonal conlangs they
> have created.
I have no tonal conlangs in my bag yet, but if necessary, I would mark them with
diacritics (if both vowels and tones are few): à, á, â etc., or with superscript
numbers: ka¹, tek², pan³ etc.
-- Yitzik
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Message: 25
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 12:40:41 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Marking tones in conlangs
On Tue, Feb 7, 2006 at 12:08 PM, Joseph B. wrote:
> I'm curious to know how others here mark tones in any tonal conlangs they
> have created.
>
> Thanks.
I'm slowly putting together a system (partly inspired by the discussion of
pre-Greek, though that's far from relevant right now) that has four versions of
every vowel:
short
long high
long mid
long low
They'll be marked by zero, acute, macron, grave in that order. I'm thinking
about adding a voiceless short, marked by underdot, though that looks strange
for i, so I may have to think of another notation if I decide to go forward
with it.
I don't have any other tonal languages, but I am thinking of adding a phonation
distinction in Lizardman, which is similar to tone. I have no idea how to mark
it yet.
Paul
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