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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: YAEPT: Enuf is Enuf: Some Peepl Thru with Dificult Spelingz
From: R A Brown
1b. Re: YAEPT: Enuf is Enuf: Some Peepl Thru with Dificult Spelingz
From: Tristan Alexander McLeay
2a. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Sally Caves
2b. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Mark J. Reed
2c. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Ph.D.
2d. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Roger Mills
2e. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Sai Emrys
2f. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Michael Adams
2g. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Gary Shannon
2h. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Gary Shannon
2i. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Michael Adams
2j. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Michael Adams
2k. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Ph.D.
2l. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Michael Adams
2m. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Roger Mills
2n. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Ph.D.
2o. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Mark J. Reed
2p. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Ph.D.
3a. Re: Megdevi Book (was Re: What is it we are saying in our languages?
From: Sally Caves
3b. Re: Megdevi Book (was Re: What is it we are saying in our languages?
From: Roger Mills
3c. Re: Megdevi Book (was Re: What is it we are saying in our languages?
From: David J. Peterson
4. Fw: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
From: Sally Caves
5. Fw: Megdevi Book (was Re: What is it we are saying in our languages?
From: Sally Caves
6. Re: Tenses -- any comments?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
7. Re: Anti-telic?
From: Sai Emrys
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: YAEPT: Enuf is Enuf: Some Peepl Thru with Dificult Spelingz
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:44 am (PDT)
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On 7/12/06, Tristan Alexander McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> > "Dir al,
>> > Frst uv al, thanks for luking intu may litl prowpowzl. Ay didnt think
>> > it wud spark eniy intrist. Frthr kaments bilo."
>> >
>> > Abviyusliy, this iz gird tord pri-GVS/kantinentl vawl valyuz rathr
>> > than krrint Inglish wunz, with thi gowl uv meyking speling mor lachikl
>> > for piypl muving bitwiyn Inglish and uthr langwichiz in aythr
>> > direkshn.
>>
>> Reading that looks like reading an American accent!
Yep. I found it incomprehensible on first reading. I mean things like
'krrint' & 'lachikl', for example, threw me completely!!
But when I read it with an (exaggerated) American accent, then things
started to fall into place.
I reminded me, I'm afraid, of the sort of thing I met when I first took
up teaching in Newport, in south Wales. The local accent there is quite
unlike the Welsh accent of the valleys, and quite like anything i had
met before (the accent of the the Splotlands in Cardiff is similar). I
occasionally got stuff submitted by kids that appeared incomprehensible;
but when I read it in the local accent, it generally made sense :)
>
> Er.
See above!
>> (Maybe your goal, but)
>
> No, quite not. Despite all the YAEPT's and even with what I've read
> of Wells and such, I seem to have failed to put the knowledge into
> practice here.
'fraid so. ;)
================================
Tristan Alexander McLeay wrote:
> On 13/07/06, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On 7/12/06, Tristan Alexander McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
>> > [*]: It's not so much the fact that Americans don't distinguish the
>> > qualities in "curry" and "furry" that doesn't cease to surprise me:
>> > it's the fact that they don't distinguish the lengths. Are you sure
>> > it's not something like [kr=i] vs [fr=ri]?
>>
>> I assume you're kidding, but trust me: there is absolutely no
>> distinction. It would never have occurred to me for any reason not to
>> make those words a perfect rhyme.
>
> No, not really kidding. Just as surprised as you are that I make a
> difference that you make none...
If you both perused the Conlang archives, you would cease to be
surprised. this has been discussed more than once. There was even a
thread "Is my curry furry?" :)
In this neck of the anglophone world the _u_ in _curry_ is the same as
in _butt_ /kVri/; but the _ur_ in _furry_ is the same as in _fur_ which,
I guess, might make it phonemically /fr=ri/ which in our rhotic dialect
is realized as ['f3ri]
[snip]
> Well, I tend to pronounce "data" as /da:t@/ ["da_":da_"], with the two
> vowels differing only by length. "Darter" would be pronounced the
> same.
Nah - 'darter' is [EMAIL PROTECTED] to people round this way :)
FWI
data = Classical Latin ['data], Medieval Latin /data/ ['da:ta].
When I was a youngster in the 1950s the only English pronunciation I
heard was /de(i)t@/. But since then Latinate pronunciations have become
more common, with either /d&t@/ if influenced by Classical Latin, or
/da(:)t@/ if influenced by medieval or Church Latin :)
Just to add to then fun, them thar Merkans of course pronounce the -t-
as a flap just like their intervocalic /d/, and in Britain the -t- is
more like to be [?] ;)
Which IMHO all goes to show it's probably best to retain the Latin
spelling and let people do what they like with it.
What this thread seems to me to be clearly showing are the problems with
reforming English spelling on a phonemic basis with the wide ranging
variation that now exists in the global anglophone world.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
J.G. Hamann, 1760
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: YAEPT: Enuf is Enuf: Some Peepl Thru with Dificult Spelingz
Posted by: "Tristan Alexander McLeay" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:53 am (PDT)
On 13/07/06, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tristan Alexander McLeay wrote:
> > > > [*]: It's not so much the fact that Americans don't distinguish the
> > > > qualities in "curry" and "furry" that doesn't cease to surprise me....
>
> I've been wondering about this. Is it possible that British(-based) speech
> uses a more [6]-like vowel in "curry (the food)", somewhat closer I think to
> the actual Indian (?) and Malay (['kari]) pronunciation??? After all, you're
> much more exposed to it than we are. What vowel do you use, then, in the
> expression "to curry favour", or when "currying" i.e. using a "curry-comb"
> on your horse? For me as for Mark, these all have the same vowel and are
> perfect rhymes-- along with hurry, blurry, slurry, jury, Murray et Al.
No. The difference is etymological. "Furry" is fur+y, so it sounds
like it: /f3:/ + /i/ -> [f2:ri]. "Curry" is a single morpheme, and if
onset maximisation is desirable, there's no reason the /r/ should
influence the previous vowel, and you get [k_ha_"ri].
For those words, I've got (monomorphemic, short vowel) "curry, hurry,
slurry, Murray" with [a_"ri]; (bimorphemic) "furry, blurry" with
[2:ri]; and (monomorphemic, long vowel) "jury" with [dZu_+ri]; I also
have (bimorphemic, long vowel) "Jewry" with [dZu\_+ri]---not something
I've ever noticed until now but strikes me as a little more evidence
that I still have a phoneme /U@/ in spite of normal descriptions of
AusE.
===========
On 13/07/06, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 8:29 AM
>
> > You seem to use <oo> for both /u/ ("yoo" above) and /o:/
> > ("beeloo", er, below). Even in only final position I think that's
> > a distinction we need to keep.
>
> Way árn't wi simpli intrÉdyúsing mór letÉs fór ÄÉ vauÉls?
> Ólso, yú jÉst hëv tÉ get rid Éf jÉ 'dayÉkritÉfobia' ...
> Dët'd meyk tings É gud díl íziÉ ay tingk.*
>
> OK, that above looks horrible IMO ... and I don't speak
> _that_ British either.** But why don't we simply use some of
> the IPA vowel signs in addition? It's clear that English
> has more phonemic vowels than the five cardinal ones that
> are included in the Alphabet (aeiou), and I don't like too
> weird diagraphs either (They have a use in Irish and Scots
> Gaelic, though!). There's aÉÉÉÉeÉÉÉÉÉɤiioɵɶɷuÊÊÊÊÊ in IPA,
You forgot ɨ (i\), ɯ (M), ø (2), oe (9) and æ (&)! Also, i is not
kosher IPA: lax i is ɪ; É· is an old-fashioned variant of Ê and so
isn't distinct from it in IPA; and Ê is just a mistake for É.
> that should be enough to choose from.
Personally, I vote we go for the ramshorns ɤ (7). My favorite IPA
character. Don't care what vowel we use it for [no /7/ in English :(],
but surely *something* deserves to be spelt with it!
Still, we can spell AusE with no more characters than is used to write
German if we allow digraphs for our consonants, and if we just
rhoticise it it should suit everyone, even tho' some of the pairs
might be slightly unintuitive. Thus:
I => i
I@ => ie or ier
i: => ii (or ei to avoid confusion of ii and ü in handwriting)
e => e
e: => ee or eer
& => ä
&: => ää or ä
&i => äi
&O => äo
a => a
a: => aa or ar
Ae => ai (or ae for more distinction from äi)
@u\ => ou (or oü)
O => o
o: => oo/oor/uur
oi => oi
U => u
u\: => uu (or üü)
U@ => uur
2: => öö or öör (how do rhotic-types pronounce French words like "hors
d'oeuvre" (me: [o:d2:v])?)
@ => ö (or e or a with some minimal ambiguity)
Of course, using üü is more than is necessary, and we might be able to
get away without ö if we're happy to have some ambiguity or just
replace it with another letter like É or y (or normally spell /@/ as e
or a; the ambiguity is almost free). I like to include a distinct
spelling for üü in my personal AusE-centric respellings because [u\:]
and [u:] feel like different phonemes to me even tho there's no real
minimal pairs unless that earlier-found distinction of "Jewry" vs
"jury" counts, or weirdisms in other Frenchish words like "bourgeois"
[bu:Zwa:].
> *tongue-in-cheek* Or, just adapt my Tahano Nuhikamu writing
> system. That'd surely be fun ... ;-)
...
> *) I'd suggest this:
>
> p - p i - i
> b - b i: - i
> t - t I - i
> d - d E - e
> k - k æ - ë
> tS - c A - a
> dZ - j A: - á
> f - f Q - o
> v - v Q: - ó
For dialects with that contrast, it is by more than just length e.g.
GAmE /A/ vs /O/, RP /Q/ vs /O:/, AusE /O/ vs /o:/.
> T - th (þ? t?) U - u
> D - dh (ð? d?) u - ú
> s - s u: - ú (some have [u\:] here)
> z - z V - a
No dialect tmk distinguishes all three of /A A: V/; in fact, I have no
idea what contrast you're trying to draw. On the other hand, you
rather sensibly spell /A/ and /V/ the same, so I assume this is just
typo-based confusion?
...
> There exist capital letters for all of these (ÆÆÆ), except
> for É. Would Ϫ (Coptic Gangia, U+03EB) be an alternative?
No. It would be an abuse of Unicode; things like automatic
recapitisation and sorting would fail. We could just finally do away
with caps...
--
Tristan.
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:05 am (PDT)
Would "I was going crazy" be more acceptable? I've heard that construction
a lot. Is it that it's put in the simple preterite the problem?
Sally
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sai Emrys" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 2:58 AM
Subject: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
>I saw that line in a profile.
>
> My response as a question: "What sort of crazy did you go?"
>
> That seems like a really funny construction to me.
>
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:41 am (PDT)
Sai> Subject: USAGE: "I went crazy two years ago"
I'm confused. With the "want" corrected to "went", that statement
strikes me as completely unremarkable. "I"m crazy." "How long have
you been crazy?" "I went crazy two years ago." Is the problem that
you assume a crazy person is no longer capable of rational speech?
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Ph.D." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:17 am (PDT)
This is a colloquial usage of "go" to mean "become."
He went postal. He went crazy. He went Republican.
After a week of working in a slaughter house, he went
vegetarian.
When I was a teenager, there was a song with a line
something like "If you need me, I'll be there in a hurry."
Every time I heard it, I pictured someone driving up in
a vehicle called a "hurry."
"What kind of idiot do you take me for?"
"I don't know. How many kinds are there?"
--Ph. D.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sally Caves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
> Would "I was going crazy" be more acceptable?
> I've heard that construction a lot. Is it that it's put
> in the simple preterite the problem?
>
> Sally
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sai Emrys" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 2:58 AM
> Subject: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
>
> >I saw that line in a profile.
> >
> > My response as a question: "What sort of crazy did
> > you go?"
> >
> > That seems like a really funny construction to me.
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:24 am (PDT)
Sai Emrys wrote:
> > This would make a lot more sense with "went" rather than "want".
> > I needed three readings to get the point.
>
> Doh! Typo, my fault.
>
> > > My response as a question: "What sort of crazy did you go?"
> >
> > A translation exercise! Wheee! :D
>
> *laugh* What I get for posting it to a conlang forum.
>
Taking this completely seriously.......:-))))
There's no way to capture the humor (such as it is) in Sai's question, since
"to go crazy" is simply a derived verb form in Kash, though it's colloquial
and irregular.
1. honga (vt) 'to lose s.t.'
2. konga 'lost (of things)', (accid.) cakonga '(accidentally) lost,
misplaced, mislaid'-- this would fill in for the non-occurring inchoative
*çukonga 'to become lost (of things)'
3. hañukonga (soul/mind+lost) insane (the medical and polite term), crazy--
ine ... 'he/she is insane' (3s/DAT ...); colloq. and somewhat pej. hañukoko,
hañukók equiv. 'crazy, nuts, loony'; even more colloq. and pej. koko, kok,
~cakoko, cakók, also used as interjections, "that's crazy! ~you're
crazy/idiotic etc.' But (finally!) these ca- forms can be used for "to go
crazy"
So: "macakók ro pehan cosa" I went crazy two years ago
And the question: kandraya kokoti cakena?
what.kind crazy-your accid.-suffer?
(But that's not the way a shrink would necessarily phrase it--
Hmm-- we need a polite/med. form for "insanity", I suppose _akañukonga_.)
Which would imply an answer "schizophrenia / catatonia / mania/depression
etc.".
The original statement could also mean (in Engl.) something like "I did some
really stupid/wild things 2 yrs. ago"-- a mad shopping/sexual/ whatever
spree-- not necessarily something requiring meds or hospitalization.
Messages in this topic (20)
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2e. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:49 pm (PDT)
Sorry for confusion - the statement whose weirdness I was intending to
refer to was the reply, "What sort of crazy did you go?"
"I went crazy two years ago" is fairly mudane. (Well, there's the
whole metaphor schema etc etc cogling stuff, but even so it's a fiarly
humdrum example thereof.)
- Sai
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
2f. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Michael Adams" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:03 pm (PDT)
Thee joy of English.
SVO or SOV or VOS or what? Some languages you have to do it one
way or else you can not understand the sentence.
English is this one of the aspects that makes English the
language of the planet for now, or just politics.
Anyone seen the example of how things are read, the one where as
long as the first and last letter are correct, you can read the
sentence, even if it is not what is supposed to be there..
Got to find it some place and share with my humor list. Or see
how anal retentive some people can be..
Word usage and what is profanity, cursing and swearing.
Shit is not accepted in most conversations, neither is crap for
some, but there is other words that mean the same things, but
are acceptible, or in some cases substituted.
"Oh Shit" becomes "Oh Darn", the same emotion or like is
expressed but the words are changed, to be more socially
acceptible or .. The effect is not as strong, cause some do love
to use "bad" words and get more pleasure out of it, but the end
effect is the same.
How does Conlangs handle this and like situations?
Like in Arabic, you do not often need to know the vowels, only
need to know the root consonants.
slm = add an M MSLM and you have Muslim. Leave it alone and it
is ISLAM.
Any like conlangs?
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
> Sai> Subject: USAGE: "I went crazy two years ago"
>
> I'm confused. With the "want" corrected to "went", that
statement
> strikes me as completely unremarkable. "I"m crazy." "How
long have
> you been crazy?" "I went crazy two years ago." Is the
problem that
> you assume a crazy person is no longer capable of rational
speech?
>
> --
> Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
2g. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:30 pm (PDT)
--- "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> When I was a teenager, there was a song with a line
> something like "If you need me, I'll be there in a
> hurry."
> Every time I heard it, I pictured someone driving up
> in
> a vehicle called a "hurry."
Is that anything like "the hurry with the fringe on
top" from the musical Oklahoma? ;-)
There's also the current usage of "goes" and "went"
for "says" and "said" as in "Then he goes like 'What's
up dude?'"
--gary
> --Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
2h. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:32 pm (PDT)
<snip>
>
> "Oh Shit" becomes "Oh Darn", the same emotion or
> like is
> expressed but the words are changed, to be more
> socially acceptible...
Don't forget "Shoot" as yet another substitute for the
fecal exclamation.
"Darn" can mean a lot of other things as well:
"Oh darn this bad weather."
"Oh darn the socks and be done with it."
"Darn it all!"
Making "darn" more versitile than "shoot" as a
semi-profanity.
As a child I was told not to say "gosh", as in "gosh
darn it", because that was just a substitute for "god"
as an exclamation, and, therefore, just as
disrespectful of the diety.
--gary
Messages in this topic (20)
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2i. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Michael Adams" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:36 pm (PDT)
I was going nuts
I was going crazy
I was going psycho
Depends on what you was doing or going on with you.
I was going psycho, what you was really doing. Like going
Postal, sort of current or past tense?
Nuts and crazy seem to be more internal, than physical. Or
external but not like your getting violent. Psycho speak of
going violent.
Mike
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
2j. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Michael Adams" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:38 pm (PDT)
Forgot, there is actually a difference between
Swearing
Cursing
Profanity
Swearing is like "I swear by the Blood of Jesus, I will kill
you" is both profain (using a gods name in vain, basically
calling on a power for trivial reasons), but it is false
swearing, since you likely did it when drunk or just did not
really mean it. So now you have Jesus attention and what? He is
a nice guy and all, but some of his friends you might have also
called on are not happy..
Cursing = "I damn you to hell." not a nice thing to do, and
normally only allowed by priests and like to consign you to the
lower regions, since you by being a non-priest, its just what
ever. It has no effect.
Profanity = calling on a power/God/Jesus/a saint or what ever
for trivial reasons..
A prayer is a good use of calling on Gods name, unless it is for
trivial reasons and therefore is almost profane.. or close to
it?
Old days, it seemed to call or use a powers name, meant you was
asking them for their attention, or why do Faires and like
creatures of Fey/Sidhe and like, you do not call them by their
NAME, but by a title or like, a title that is nice and polite,
cause if you pissed them off, they might come and do a trick on
you.
Trick or Treat, when your dead ancestors come back from the
world of the dead, around 15 October, they want something, blood
and food or mischief. So to keep them busy, you give them treats
or they take your arm or cattle (trick is how they take your
cattle, eat them or just steal them). Also could be a methaphor
for the Tax Man or just local raider or like?
Feeling humorous is all.
So should I call on Yahweh or Adonai? Sometimes getting
attention is not a good idea.
Mike
Messages in this topic (20)
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2k. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Ph.D." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:41 pm (PDT)
Gary Shannon wrote:
>
> "Darn" can mean a lot of other things as well:
>
> "Oh darn this bad weather."
> "Oh darn the socks and be done with it."
> "Darn it all!"
A man with holes in his socks usually has a wife
who doen't give a darn. :-)
There's a set of euphemisms for swear words:
shoot, darn, dang, friggin', gosh darn it, goll dang it.
Isn't French "sacre bleu" a euphemism for "sacre
Dieu"?
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
2l. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Michael Adams" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:43 pm (PDT)
To true..
I say like Shucky Darn or "Oh Fudgbucket" or like..
Used to use German, until some Teacher at the Middle School
taught his students the German curse words. Darn. Ich missen
mein Shitzen spreche".. Can no long "Gefuchen sprecht" (sorry my
German is very degraded and almost non-existant).
I now use my on the fly conlang to say profane things. I started
do it alot bit back when I live in Nome Alaska and had people
giving me dirty talks in Siberian Yupik, or Yupik, or Inupiaq or
Russians or what ever. I would come back with gibberish that had
some consistancy..
I do wonder if I was not adopted and spoke a non-English native
american language before I was adopted or just never learned how
to speak well.. Or just love gibberish?
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Shannon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
> <snip>
> >
> > "Oh Shit" becomes "Oh Darn", the same emotion or
> > like is
> > expressed but the words are changed, to be more
> > socially acceptible...
>
> Don't forget "Shoot" as yet another substitute for the
> fecal exclamation.
>
> "Darn" can mean a lot of other things as well:
>
> "Oh darn this bad weather."
> "Oh darn the socks and be done with it."
> "Darn it all!"
>
> Making "darn" more versitile than "shoot" as a
> semi-profanity.
>
> As a child I was told not to say "gosh", as in "gosh
> darn it", because that was just a substitute for "god"
> as an exclamation, and, therefore, just as
> disrespectful of the diety.
>
> --gary
Messages in this topic (20)
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2m. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:59 pm (PDT)
Gary Shannon wrote:
> Don't forget "Shoot" as yet another substitute for the
> fecal exclamation.
>
My aunt's Great and Good Friend*, at a family gathering when I was probably
11 or 12, after some boo-boo came out with "Oh sh......ugar!" Everyone had a
good laugh. But I don't know how spur-of-the-moment that really was.
---------------------------------
*In Kash, I'm pretty sure now, that would be _susanji or susale_ 'terms of
affection used among women (implying a very close, [and esp. susale] perhaps
sexual, relationship)'. She was a dear, wonderful lady, Amanda, worthy of
her name.
Messages in this topic (20)
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2n. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Ph.D." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:15 pm (PDT)
Michael Adams wrote:
>
> Trick or Treat, when your dead ancestors come back
> from the world of the dead, around 15 October, they
> want something, blood and food or mischief. So to keep
> them busy, you give them treats or they take your arm
> or cattle (trick is how they take your cattle, eat them or
> just steal them). Also could be a methaphor for the Tax
> Man or just local raider or like?
This is on October 31, the evening of All Saints Day, which
is November 1. This was once called All Hallows Day, so
the evening was called All Hallows Even, now corrupted to
Halloween.
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (20)
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2o. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:15 pm (PDT)
On 7/13/06, Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sorry for confusion - the statement whose weirdness I was intending to
> refer to was the reply, "What sort of crazy did you go?"
Ah! OK, that is moderately more interesting. Still pretty darn
unremarkable to my ear, though. <shrug>
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (20)
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2p. Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Ph.D." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:18 pm (PDT)
Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Sorry for confusion - the statement whose
> weirdness I was intending to refer to was the
> reply, "What sort of crazy did you go?"
Not so weird when you consider "go" as meaning
"become":
"I went crazy." = "I became crazy."
"What sort of crazy did you go?"
= "What sort of crazy did you become?"
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (20)
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3a. Re: Megdevi Book (was Re: What is it we are saying in our languages?
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:35 am (PDT)
Your book, David, is awesome, and it rivals Rev. Paul Burgess's _mna Sipri
Cilama_, written in his mna Vanantha, in which he is fluent, and beautifully
illustrated and bound. Do you remember his brief sojourn on Conlang in
2003?
Here's his link: http://www.paulburgess.org/msc.html
My texts are basically electronic, and I SHOULD illustrate more of them. I
have a million blank books, but they are too long for any Teonaht epic, and
would take me years to fill, much less illustrate!
Your side-comments on your text, by the way, are hilarious! I don't think
the woman looks so much like a man in drag. To emphasize her feminine
attributes, you should make her face fuller, and please give her BREASTS! :)
Why do you say that you hate painting? You are a wonderful artist with a
great sense of color. How long ago did you do this? Have you translated
the epic?
Sally
Messages in this topic (31)
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3b. Re: Megdevi Book (was Re: What is it we are saying in our languages?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:18 am (PDT)
Sally Caves wrote:
> Sorry to be sending this again. My computer is doing this again. My
> original message will probably show up tomorrow. :( But forwarded
> messages
> seem to get their earlier. It's frontiernet.
>
So it seems. This arrived at 1:49PM, repeating the earlier msg. at 12:24.
Happens to me too, though very rarely.
It's cumbersome to do, but if you check the listserv archive and your msg.
is there, that should mean _we_ received it the first time.
----------------------------
I remember Mr. Burgess; pity he's not here anymore. Did he ever give a
translation of that work?
Messages in this topic (31)
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3c. Re: Megdevi Book (was Re: What is it we are saying in our languages?
Posted by: "David J. Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:02 pm (PDT)
Sally wrote:
<<
Your book, David, is awesome, and it rivals Rev. Paul Burgess's _mna
Sipri Cilama_, written in his mna Vanantha, in which he is fluent,
and beautifully illustrated and bound. Do you remember his brief
sojourn on Conlang in 2003?
>>
Thank you! Now here's something weird. Checking the archives,
it appears in 2003 I was no-mail from who knows when until mid-
April, right after I got back from the prospective week at UCSD
(I was still at Berkeley at the time). Paul Burgess's *entire* Conlang
residence lasted from March to April, and just about all of the
posts regarding him and about his conlangs were in March. So,
in fact, I totally missed them. Thanks for pointing them out!
Regarding Paul's book, love those colors! Ahh, teal... A man
after my own heart. Looking over his page, he's done quite a
bit. It's a shame he didn't stay on Conlang very long (didn't even
seem to leave a reason for leaving...).
Sally wrote:
<<
I have a million blank books, but they are too long for any Teonaht
epic, and would take me years to fill, much less illustrate!
>>
That's all right. Once you've published your conlang book, and
we all have it in our personal libraries, you'll be the first to publish
a book in your conlang complete with illustrations (what with all
your connections in the publishing world), so it's all good. :)
Sally:
<<
To emphasize her feminine attributes, you should make her face
fuller, and please give her BREASTS! :)
>>
Ha, ha! You know, two things there: (1) Way back when, I was
young and shy, and kind of blanched at the idea of having to
draw breasts--even clothed. It seemed so naughty! and (2) hadn't
had much experience...drawing them. On some pages they end
up looking like misshapen male pecs (or worse).
Sally:
<<
Why do you say that you hate painting?
>>
I can't control the brush! :( It's not like I don't like how painting
looks, or anything, it's just a very basic skill deal that could
probably
be solved by taking a painting class, and lots and lots of (expensive)
practice.
Sally:
<<
How long ago did you do this?
>>
Good question. I've been searching the archives to see if I posted
anything on it, and it looks like I didn't. I guess it would've had
to've been before September, 2000, which would predate my
joining the list...
Sally:
<<
Have you translated the epic?
>>
Had the whole thing translated when I had my original computer
file. It looks like I started to way back when, but gave up. I'll see
what I can do.
Oh, and it looks like your posts are coming to the list, even if
you're not getting them.
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
Messages in this topic (31)
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4. Fw: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:03 am (PDT)
ditto!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sally Caves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Constructed Languages List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
> Would "I was going crazy" be more acceptable? I've heard that
> construction a lot. Is it that it's put in the simple preterite the
> problem?
>
> Sally
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sai Emrys" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 2:58 AM
> Subject: USAGE: "I want crazy two years ago"
>
>
>>I saw that line in a profile.
>>
>> My response as a question: "What sort of crazy did you go?"
>>
>> That seems like a really funny construction to me.
>>
>
Messages in this topic (1)
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5. Fw: Megdevi Book (was Re: What is it we are saying in our languages?
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:19 am (PDT)
Sorry to be sending this again. My computer is doing this again. My
original message will probably show up tomorrow. :( But forwarded messages
seem to get their earlier. It's frontiernet.
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sally Caves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Constructed Languages List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: Megdevi Book (was Re: What is it we are saying in our
languages?)
> Your book, David, is awesome, and it rivals Rev. Paul Burgess's _mna Sipri
> Cilama_, written in his mna Vanantha, in which he is fluent, and
> beautifully illustrated and bound. Do you remember his brief sojourn on
> Conlang in 2003?
>
> Here's his link: http://www.paulburgess.org/msc.html
>
> My texts are basically electronic, and I SHOULD illustrate more of them.
> I have a million blank books, but they are too long for any Teonaht epic,
> and would take me years to fill, much less illustrate!
>
> Your side-comments on your text, by the way, are hilarious! I don't think
> the woman looks so much like a man in drag. To emphasize her feminine
> attributes, you should make her face fuller, and please give her BREASTS!
> :)
>
> Why do you say that you hate painting? You are a wonderful artist with a
> great sense of color. How long ago did you do this? Have you translated
> the epic?
>
> Sally
>
Messages in this topic (1)
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6. Re: Tenses -- any comments?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:24 pm (PDT)
Hallo!
On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 15:43:23 -0400, Jeffrey Jones wrote:
> I have a simple tense system here:
>
> http://qiihoskeh.livejournal.com/68802.html
>
> I'm posting here because I feel it needs corrections.
I think it makes perfect sense the way it is. Perhaps a bit more logical and
regular than what one would expect in a natlang, but well, there *are* a few
highly regular natlangs around.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (2)
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7. Re: Anti-telic?
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:04 pm (PDT)
On 7/13/06, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Clearly you can claim the universe is eternal or that it is not eternal.
> The English language, as I see it, is quite capable of letting you do
> this unambiguously. This does not, as far as I can see, require the need
> for any 'anti-telic' verb phrase aspect.
I didn't say it was a *need*. There are few things that are. Nonlinear
languages certainly aren't a *need*, but when I ask if they're
possible or how they could be made, that doesn't really come into it.
Your replies heavily remind me of the early threads on that - you seem
to be exclusively analyzing things from the telic/atelic only
perspective, in that they can account for it - sure they can, I never
said not - without really looking at 'what if you had a third'.
To clarify one point on this:
Current atelic is... agnostic about endpoints. It IMPLIES that it
could end, but it doesn't outright require it.
A tripartite system (telic/atelic/antitelic) would have a narrower use
of atelic, i.e. for things that strictly CAN have an end, but don't
have to, and might not. But for things that CAN'T (or that you're
phrasing as such - viz lying and pragmatics and such), you wouldn't be
able to use that, and would need to use the antitelic instead.
Whereas with a bipartite system, atelic includes things that CAN'T end
by adding adjectives or adverbs - e.g. "they'll never stop dating".
(Note btw, I only intend the dating-as-a-relationship-verb sense, not
'any particular date'. I think they're fairly distinct meanings for
this.)
Using atelic in that way is sortof irrealis I think (not sure if
irrealis is the grammatically correct term for what I mean though).
Another way to put it: "Will it end?"
telic: yes
atelic: it might
antitelic: no
> That is the rub. It seems to me that stating that something positively
> can not ever be stopped once it has started _is_ to adopt a metaphysical
> position.
Okay, now I see.
Yes, I concede that. Yes, having an antitelic does IMPLY a
metaphysical position that some things can indeed continue forever.
However, attacking my metaphysical position - a discussion I'm not
interested in - in no way attacks the ability to STATE things that are
congruent with my position, even if you philosophically or
astrophysically disagree, or even if it's indeed false.
In fact, I can completely concede (for the sake of this discussion)
that the universe will end 1000 years from now in a blip that wipes
out everything yea unto time, and still say that I want to express
something as going on indefinitely.
> > e.g. the existence of the universe,
>
> ....will come to an end, according to some. Indeed, some see the
> creation & evolution of the universe as a telic process.
See above.
> > humans dating (exaggeration - eg "they're
> > sooooo cuuuuute together it's impossible they'll break up"),
>
> Each date does not go on for ever. A date is a telic process. We may
> have, and often do have, an series of individual dates. "He is dating
> Lois" is atelic, but "He has a date with Lois this evening" is telic, as
> I understand the terms.
See above; you're using the wrong sense of dating.
Also, I agree that humans dating in the non-exaggerative sense I gave
would be normal atelic.
> Yes, gnomic is to do with _states_ whereas, I am discovering, telic &
> atelic are to do with processes.
Quite so.
> > 3. Antitelic
>
> I do not understand what point 3 is.
It's a typo. :-P
> > 4. They're different grammatical categories
>
> Semantic as well, surely. Any explicit grammaticalization of these
> categories seem to be be related to syntax.
Certainly. Though there are other ways (eg affixes) to express
telicity, so I'm keeping it in the abstract.
> > The point about mass vs count nouns seems spurious to me; just because
> > they happen to be analagous in some ways does not mean they are
> > NECESSARILY linked or that the limitation of one implies the
> > limitation of the other.
>
> I do not think that either And or I said they were NECESSARILY linked.
> But I agree with And that they are analogous in certain ways. Analogies
> are useful, I think, in that we can examine how far they are similar and
> in what ways they differ. Can a similar trichotomy be applied to the
> concept of 'countability' as that which you are suggesting for
> 'telicity'? If the answer is "yes", then surely it helps understand what
> you are getting at. But if the answer is "no", then we ask 'Why not?',
> 'What are the differences between the concepts of countability &
> telicity?', 'Is the trichotomy proposed for telicity valid.' IMO
> analogies can be useful as long as, of course, we remember that they are
> analogies.
OK, I agree with you that far. It seems clear though that telicity and
countability are fairly different beasts...
> But as I read more, I am finding that telicity is a feature of the verb
> _and_ its arguments. The concept of countability does seem to figure to
> some extent; for example, I discover that "eat apples" is atelic, but
> "eat two apples" is telic.
Hmm, true. Antitelic would need a patient that can keep it up
indefinitely - indeed, forever. Maybe one could do that with two
apples (eat one half of what you have every hour? regurgitate ad
nauseam [sic]?), but it'd be easier to think of with a limitless
supply... or with verbs that don't consume [again, sic] their
patients...
> But, I stress again, my comments about 'anti-telic' relate only to
> _natlangs_. You did ask "Any natlang or conlang examples of this?" I
> know of no natlang examples.
Understood. It seemed that earlier you were arguing that it was indeed
impossible at all.
For that matter, viz my statements above, I think you're wrong about
saying that it would be impossible to have in a natlang. Obviously
there have been (and exist) many many languages whose cultures know
nothing of the metaphysical / duration of the universe arguments
you've mentioned. :-P
> I have made it clear more than once, I do _not_ say the idea in invalid
> in a conlang. That would be foolish. After all, is not one reason for
> creating a conlang to experiment with different or unusual ideas. Are
> there, indeed, any conlang examples of this?
I'm still waiting for any examples. :-P
Messages in this topic (16)
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