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There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Integrating snippets from other languages into your L1
From: Larry Sulky
2a. TECH: Switching to a better e-mail program
From: Peter Ara Guekguezian
2b. Re: TECH: Switching to a better e-mail program
From: Paul Bennett
2c. Re: TECH: Switching to a better e-mail program
From: Tristan Alexander McLeay
3. Re: OT: "Special needs" (Was Michael Adams/Abrigon (Was [OT] Books f
From: Tristan Alexander McLeay
4. Re: OT: THEORY Fusion Grammar
From: Herman Miller
5a. Re: free word-order conlangs
From: And Rosta
5b. Re: free word-order conlangs
From: And Rosta
Messages
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1. Re: Integrating snippets from other languages into your L1
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:22 pm (PDT)
I now use ilomi's "aya!" routinely as an expletive of frustration or
disbelief. (It is apparently similar to a Mandarin expletive of
similar meaning -- a happy but not terribly surprising coincidence.)
My teenagers also use it from time to time. --larry
Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. TECH: Switching to a better e-mail program
Posted by: "Peter Ara Guekguezian" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:35 pm (PDT)
The e-mail address I'm using now is definitely not optimal for a list.
Thus, I will find a new address specifically for this list.
Two Questions:
1) What is a good (& free) e-mail service to use for the list? (i.e., one
that automatically sorts different threads)
2) Is there any easy way to switch addresses, besides the obvious one of
cancelling CONLANG-LIST at this address and subscribing at the new one?
Or, can I just tell the 'listserv' the new address I wish to use for this
list?
Your help is appreciated!
-Peter Ara Guekguezian (a.k.a. kodé)
Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: TECH: Switching to a better e-mail program
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:22 pm (PDT)
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:04:34 -0400, Peter Ara Guekguezian
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The e-mail address I'm using now is definitely not optimal for a list.
> Thus, I will find a new address specifically for this list.
>
> Two Questions:
>
> 1) What is a good (& free) e-mail service to use for the list? (i.e., one
> that automatically sorts different threads)
http://www.gmail.com/ seems to work well enough, and allows POP access, so
you can use the email program of your choice, instead of being tied to one
specific web interface. Personally, I prefer http://www.opera.com/ for its
"best of breed" Unicode support and the slick integration of the various
components, but many will tell you http://www.mozilla.com/thunderbird/ is
the platform of choice.
> 2) Is there any easy way to switch addresses, besides the obvious one of
> cancelling CONLANG-LIST at this address and subscribing at the new one?
> Or, can I just tell the 'listserv' the new address I wish to use for this
> list?
I suspect that is the easiest way.
Paul
Messages in this topic (3)
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2c. Re: TECH: Switching to a better e-mail program
Posted by: "Tristan Alexander McLeay" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:03 pm (PDT)
On 18/07/06, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:04:34 -0400, Peter Ara Guekguezian
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The e-mail address I'm using now is definitely not optimal for a list.
> > Thus, I will find a new address specifically for this list.
> >
> > Two Questions:
> >
> > 1) What is a good (& free) e-mail service to use for the list? (i.e., one
> > that automatically sorts different threads)
>
> http://www.gmail.com/ seems to work well enough,
To be contrary: Gmail has really bad thread sorting. It looks only at
the subject header. So if two messages have the same subject header
and are near enough in time, they get classed as the same thread. But
often, a message comes a month after the rest of the thread, and it
gets broken (making finding the original thread harder) or some
terribly minor change is made to the thread header (such as the
addition of "OT:", or an extra space), and the threading gets broken,
or two threads are merged into one because they share the same subject
and came near enough in time. Obviously this means there's only a
single (flat) level of threading: replies to replies and subthreads
are not indicated.
So seriously, if you care at all about threading *don't* use the GMail client.
(If you use more than one email address, GMail's client also has
issues with picking the right one. Basically, it doesn't try to. The
combination of these two problems, and a few other lesser ones, is
presently making me poke around at Evolution and Thunderbird to see
why I stopped using them.)
...
> > 2) Is there any easy way to switch addresses, besides the obvious one of
> > cancelling CONLANG-LIST at this address and subscribing at the new one?
> > Or, can I just tell the 'listserv' the new address I wish to use for this
> > list?
>
> I suspect that is the easiest way.
Indeeed, tmk, it's the only way.
--
Tristan.
Messages in this topic (3)
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3. Re: OT: "Special needs" (Was Michael Adams/Abrigon (Was [OT] Books f
Posted by: "Tristan Alexander McLeay" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:52 pm (PDT)
If you/anyone must continue this discussion, please do so offlist ---
and *don't* cc me.
--
Tristan.
On 18/07/06, Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 7/17/06, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 7/17/06, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Is this a serious question?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> What he said.
>
> > > You would probably find it strange to collect money for the rich.
> >
> > What I find is that you are using an extremely inapplicable and
> > offensive analogy.
>
> Ditto.
>
> > > If the challenged are well-supported, the smart ones should have
> > > access to enough books, though, for feeding any interest and keeping
> > > them from getting bored.
> >
> > Once they're old enough, sure - assuming that their experiences within
> > the educational system haven't destroyed their desire to learn
> > altogether.
> >
> > There's a reason many school systems have a special program for
> > "gifted" children. Assuming that your goal is to educate the
> > students, then dealing with them is as serious a problem as reaching
> > the children who are slower than normal for whatever reason.
>
> *nod*
>
> To elaborate on that somewhat: I don't want to touch the subject of
> *priority* - as noted by Christian, that's a 'social justice' sort of
> sensitive question that I don't think really applies.
>
> But to answer to the point... Sure, now that I am an adult and have
> access to a world of information, classes, college textbooks, etc etc
> on my own time, the "you're smart enough, teach yourself" argument
> applies.
>
> But when I was a kid, I didn't. I was by law required to go to school,
> an institution that did very little to educate me, and whose social
> "education" would only prepare one for life in prison, not the real
> world (where we have things like laws, and meritocracies, and real
> lives that we engage in because we want to). It's a mistake to assume
> that a kid, even a hyperintelligent one, is any more developed in the
> aspect of being able to teach themselves than others are; that's a
> skill. One that takes time to learn, and one that (if anything) school
> teaches you NOT to learn.
>
> And y'know - I read lots and lots of books when I was a kid. Literally
> you could not find me without three in my posession, and one in front
> of my nose, if I was awake (and possibly when I was asleep too :-P).
> But that's hardly the same thing as an education; hardly the same
> thing as being taught properly. I didn't really educate myself; I read
> for fun, not so much for knowledge - because I didn't know what
> knowledge *would* be fun.
>
> IMHO as someone who's been there, the "let smart kids figure things
> out themselves despite the system" is a terrible disservice.
>
> - Sai
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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4. Re: OT: THEORY Fusion Grammar
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:54 pm (PDT)
Gary Shannon wrote:
> I really having trtouble understanding the function of
> "er...mee" in this sentence. What, exactly, is the
> "er...mee" telling us? It's not what the torch was lit
> "with", so what is it?
For some context, the previous sentence is: "Pak een Deku Stick en steek
hem aan bij de brandende fakkel." The gist of this is something like
"Grab a Deku Stick and light it with the burning torch." So the "er ...
mee" is referring to the Deku Stick. "Now light the non-burning torch
with it to open the door."
http://home.hccnet.nl/j.a.hildering/deku.htm
Messages in this topic (24)
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5a. Re: free word-order conlangs
Posted by: "And Rosta" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:30 pm (PDT)
Eldin Raigmore, On 17/07/2006 18:14:
> I can't even imagine why I would want to allow phrases to "leave their home
> clauses" and move around the sentence. Does that occur in any natlang? If
> so, does anyone on-list have an example?
"Clever, I know that he is."
"This, I am certain that you'll eat."
English has a grammatical device that will extract a phrase leftwards out of
clauses, for discoursal reasons.
The rationale for allowing phrases to leave their home clauses is that, as your
other comments acknowledge, there are discoursal reasons for it being desirable
to present/reveal/unfold information in a particular order, an order that may
involve a mismatch with the order you'd get by keeping everything in its home
phrase.
Take "Clever people are entitled to special educational privileges". By the
topic & focus ordering preferences you articulated for your conlangs, that
would transform into something like "Special educational privileges, people are
entitled to, when they're clever", or, with simple reordering "Special
educational privileges people entitled-to clever".
(Arguably topic/focus ought to be reflected by grammatical structure, not only
by word order, but there still remain general discoursal reasons for preferring
a particular order in which information is revealed.)
> If it occurs in a conlang, can anyone give me/us an example?
My Livagian, but via a device that redefines the 'home phrase' as wherever a
phrase ends up.
[...]
>> 2. What mechanism allows the freedom (without ambiguity)?
>
> Haven't quite decided.
>
>> Rampant concord?
>
> I'm leaning towards this, and also towards case-marking.
I'm especially on the lookout for non-concord-based solutions.
[...]
> In any case I see no reason why Adpihi shouldn't be both head-marking and
> dependent-marking.
It depends on the other design goals. If brevity is one, then a surfeit of
inflection might work against that.
[...]
>> (To start the ball rolling: my Livagian has
>> no structural freedom
>
> What, _none_?
Every order is structurally distinct.
>> but lots of informational freedom, using a
>> mechanism other than rampant concord,
>
> Tell me/us about this mechanism.
I'm not sure how intelligible a succinct description would be...
If phrases X and Y combine to form Z, any unsaturated arguments of X or Y can
become arguments of Z, and so on recursively. So you can end up with, say, a
2-argument phrase meaning "I know that X told you that cows eat Y" (where X & Y
are the arguments). Or a 100-argument phrase.
>> and no limitation to certain subsentential domains.)
>
> Can you explain this in a little more detail?
How about the above description?
--And.
Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: free word-order conlangs
Posted by: "And Rosta" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:41 pm (PDT)
Patrick Littell, On 17/07/2006 18:43:
> On 7/17/06, Eldin Raigmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Words may be re-ordered within phrases; phrases may be re-ordered within
>> clauses; and clauses may be re-ordered within sentences.
>
> This sort of nonconfigurationality -- order is free but constituency
> is still respected -- is a more common than the Warlpiri sort. Moreso
> at the clause and VP level than within the NP level, I believe. (That
> is, it's more likely to be able to rearrange clauses (like in, say,
> English) and arguments of verbs (like in, oh, lots of languages) than
> play around with the order inside NPs.)
What evidence is there that Warlpiri doesn't respect constituency? I don't know
much about Warlpiri, but the traditionally cited examples have always struck me
as analysable in terms of an unusually flat clause structure with lots of
secondary predicates.
[...]
> a word can "leave home" in Russian to be fronted, as in 3 below.
>
> 1. I met interesting-ACC boy-ACC today. (Neutral)
> 2. Interesting-ACC boy-ACC I met today (Emphasis on the interesting boy)
> 3. Interesting-ACC I met boy-ACC today. (Emphasis on the interestingness)
>
> I think there's only one topic slot for the sort of thing illustrated
> in 3, though. I don't think you're allowed to have multiple
> "runaways" all leaving their "homes" at once.
Assuming that "interesting" must be within the NP unless fronted, this is a
better example of runawayhood, though of course it is one we are familar with
from English (though of course attributive adjectives aren't extractable in
English).
--And.
Messages in this topic (5)
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