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There are 19 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Skerre Play Online
From: David J. Peterson
1b. Re: Skerre Play Online
From: Mark J. Reed
1c. Re: Skerre Play Online
From: David J. Peterson
1d. Ozymandias in Guthisk
From: Damien Perrotin
1e. Re: Skerre Play Online
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1f. Re: Ozymandias in Guthisk
From: Adam Walker
1g. Re: Ozymandias in Guthisk
From: Damien Perrotin
1h. Re: Skerre Play Online
From: Herman Miller
1i. Re: Skerre Play Online
From: Sally Caves
1j. Re: Skerre Play Online
From: Sally Caves
2a. Re: Implied prepositions
From: Philip Newton
2b. Re: Implied prepositions
From: caeruleancentaur
2c. Re: Implied prepositions
From: Dana Nutter
3a. Neimalu website
From: Pieterson
3b. Re: Neimalu website
From: Henrik Theiling
4. Re: free word-order conlangs
From: And Rosta
5a. Website: Old Sanhr
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5b. Re: Website: Old Sanhr
From: Jeffrey Jones
6. Whatever Updated
From: Jeffrey Jones
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Skerre Play Online
Posted by: "David J. Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:20 pm (PDT)
Long time members of Conlang may remember Doug Ball,
creator of Skerre who's now a ling grad up at Stanford. What
you may not know (unless your name rhymes with Rally Raves)
is the play written and performed in Skerre.
When Doug was in 8th grade, one of his teachers learned that
he was creating a language (the earliest version of Skerre), and
approached him about writing a play entirely in Skerre and
then performing. This he did, with the help of his class (they
helped with plot, props, etc.; he did all the translating), and
they actually performed the play for the school. I've always
found this quite remarkable, in that not only did Doug compose
a play in his conlang, but he managed to convince (with help,
of course, but the point remains) others to perform the play,
*in Skerre*, and other watched! *That's* an achievement!
Anyway, with prompting from me and others, Doug has found
and uploaded the text of the play in Skerre, along with English
translations. The Skerre in the play is very, very different from
today's Skerre, but it was composed in Skerre, nevertheless.
Plus, the play's a lot of fun.
So, without further ado, you can read some background on
the play here:
http://tsketar.tripod.com/skerre/behind_the_scenes.html
Or download the .pdf directly here:
http://tsketar.tripod.com/skerre/SkerrePlay.pdf
(Oh, in case you're wondering why I'm posting, Doug is no
longer on Conlang, so I get to be his mouthpiece. Call me
Tsotar!)
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: Skerre Play Online
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:20 am (PDT)
On 7/20/06, David J. Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> When Doug was in 8th grade, one of his teachers learned that
> he was creating a language (the earliest version of Skerre), and
> approached him about writing a play entirely in Skerre and
> then performing. This he did, with the help of his class (they
> helped with plot, props, etc.; he did all the translating), and
> they actually performed the play for the school.
I did not know any of this, and I'm completely floored. That's
astonishing. Way to go, Doug's teacher!!!
> (Oh, in case you're wondering why I'm posting, Doug is no
> longer on Conlang, so I get to be his mouthpiece. Call me
> Tsotar!)
Ok, Tsotar. Why is Doug no longer here? Did he outgrow his interest
in conlanging?
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Skerre Play Online
Posted by: "David J. Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:04 pm (PDT)
Mark wrote:
<<
Ok, Tsotar. Why is Doug no longer here? Did he outgrow his interest
in conlanging?
>>
No, nothing like that. It's merely the volume of the list and a
lack of time. Doug and I both started ling grad school at the
same time. Unlike me, though, Doug did things like, you know,
research, presenting at conferences, etc., so he's been really,
really busy. So unlike me, who's leaving with a master's, he's
going on to get a Ph.D., into a world of more busy-ness. He's
still very much a conlanger (he did present at the LCC), but
has to plan his conlanging time, and can't keep up with the
list traffic. I'm sure he'll be back after he publishes his first
book as an associate professor at the University of Colorado at
Boulder (that's right: I'm calling it! Who's taking bets?).
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Ozymandias in Guthisk
Posted by: "Damien Perrotin" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:17 pm (PDT)
I've just put online a translation of Ozymandias (by Shelley) in
Guthisk. It's not as weird as my other WIP (well, in fact, it's just
another germanic language) but I have always had a soft spot for Alaric
and co
http://erwan.arskoul.chez-alice.fr/ozymandias.html
Messages in this topic (10)
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1e. Re: Skerre Play Online
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:39 pm (PDT)
Hallo!
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 23:12:23 -0700, "David J. Peterson" wrote:
> Long time members of Conlang may remember Doug Ball,
> creator of Skerre who's now a ling grad up at Stanford. What
> you may not know (unless your name rhymes with Rally Raves)
> is the play written and performed in Skerre.
>
> [...]
>
> http://tsketar.tripod.com/skerre/behind_the_scenes.html
>
> Or download the .pdf directly here:
>
> http://tsketar.tripod.com/skerre/SkerrePlay.pdf
Rock'n'roll! That's indeed something. Haven't seen anything like that here
since Jesse Bangs posted his creation myth in Yivrian.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Ozymandias in Guthisk
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:47 pm (PDT)
Neat-o. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else do
Ozymandias as a translation exercise. BTW how are you
pronouncing "q"?
Adam
--- Damien Perrotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've just put online a translation of Ozymandias (by
> Shelley) in
> Guthisk. It's not as weird as my other WIP (well, in
> fact, it's just
> another germanic language) but I have always had a
> soft spot for Alaric
> and co
>
> http://erwan.arskoul.chez-alice.fr/ozymandias.html
>
9 Debostu averuns judidu ul regu, vaderuns in al via, ed iñi! erad vidandu sis
al steja fi averuns spichudu in il ojindi, gata ad vinid ed pedizud subra jundi
fuid al credura.
10 Vidindu al steja, niregoderuns rexundimindi.
Machu 2:9-10
Messages in this topic (10)
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1g. Re: Ozymandias in Guthisk
Posted by: "Damien Perrotin" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:48 pm (PDT)
Skrivet en doa Adam Walker:
> Neat-o. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else do
> Ozymandias as a translation exercise. BTW how are you
> pronouncing "q"?
>
> Adam
>
Like in Wulfilan Gothic (and Latin) : a labio-velar. The phoneme was
lost in all other germanic tongues (and some evidences suggest in the
historical Crimean Gothic too) but I sort of liked it.
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Skerre Play Online
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:59 pm (PDT)
David J. Peterson wrote:
> Long time members of Conlang may remember Doug Ball,
> creator of Skerre who's now a ling grad up at Stanford. What
> you may not know (unless your name rhymes with Rally Raves)
> is the play written and performed in Skerre.
Cool stuff! I don't have anything nearly this cool, but one of these
days I ought to go through my old papers and try to find some of the old
translations I've done, mainly in Olaetian. I didn't have much of a
language in 8th grade, and I can't imagine anyone wanting to put on a
play in Olaetian. Besides, I wasn't much of a writer in the first place.
But I did some original writing, even back in the high school days, and
it might be amusing to take another look at it after all these years.
Unlike Skerre, Olaetian hasn't changed much since the early years, and I
can probably still read the early texts. It used to be one of the few
languages I could read and write without looking up every other word.
What happened is that I lost interest in the "human" cultures and
shifted focus to the "elvish" and other non-human people of what was
then still called the "Olaetian" universe, and later renamed to the more
neutral "Kolagian" (after the "Kolagian Library", i.e., "Universal
Library" on the planet Zel, so the name really meant "Universal
Universe" :-) )
So in a way the history of Skerre is quite the opposite of the
development of Olaetian, which started out as a human language (a
futuristic space-faring human language, but still definitely human) and
went into a long period of dormancy. For a while I had the idea that
Olaetians were part human and part elf. Now that there aren't any humans
in the Azirian universe, Olaetian is spoken by the next closest thing
(Yitha). While on the other hand the Skerre started out as more elf-like
and ended up "finally losing their alien-ness completely" according to
the page.
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. Re: Skerre Play Online
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:27 pm (PDT)
Doug was my student, too, at the University of Rochester. Yay, Doug! He
did an independent study with me and Jeff Runner on conlanging. :)
That's when I found out about his awesome play!
Sally
----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: Skerre Play Online
> Mark wrote:
> <<
> Ok, Tsotar. Why is Doug no longer here? Did he outgrow his interest
> in conlanging?
> >>
>
> No, nothing like that. It's merely the volume of the list and a
> lack of time. Doug and I both started ling grad school at the
> same time. Unlike me, though, Doug did things like, you know,
> research, presenting at conferences, etc., so he's been really,
> really busy. So unlike me, who's leaving with a master's, he's
> going on to get a Ph.D., into a world of more busy-ness. He's
> still very much a conlanger (he did present at the LCC), but
> has to plan his conlanging time, and can't keep up with the
> list traffic. I'm sure he'll be back after he publishes his first
> book as an associate professor at the University of Colorado at
> Boulder (that's right: I'm calling it! Who's taking bets?).
>
> -David
> *******************************************************************
> "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
> "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
>
> -Jim Morrison
>
> http://dedalvs.free.fr/
>
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
1j. Re: Skerre Play Online
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:33 pm (PDT)
----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Long time members of Conlang may remember Doug Ball,
> creator of Skerre who's now a ling grad up at Stanford. What
> you may not know (unless your name rhymes with Rally Raves)
Who??
> is the play written and performed in Skerre.
And Doug, by the way, is also an awesome composer. I've heard him play like
an angel on the piano (one of his own compositions), and I listened to a
symphony of his at the UR that was performed there. It was called
"Xeroscape," I think.
Rally
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Implied prepositions
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:44 am (PDT)
On 7/19/06, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It occured to me that a conlang could almost be made
> preposition-free if the verbs absorbed the role
> usually played by prepositions.
Or if you used a couple dozen cases which are obligatorily marked on
(pro)nouns :)
> What would be a sensible word order if verbs all
> contained implied prepositions? "He gave-to Mary the
> book." "The book he gave-to Mary." "He book gave-to
> Mary." "Gave-to he book Mary."
If you have cases, then there needn't be any prepositions here :) For
example, in German, the three NPs are nom, dat, acc, and can occur in
more than one order -- especially if you use pronouns, which are more
case-marked, or if you add a definite article to the proper noun
(which happens in dialects), again for case-marking.
Er gab der Maria das Buch
Das Buch gab er der Maria
Der Maria gab er das Buch
Er gab das Buch der Maria
but not (for me)
*Das Buch gab der Maria er
*Das Buch der Maria gab er
*Er das Buch der Maria gab
etc.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: Implied prepositions
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:21 am (PDT)
>Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It occured to me that a conlang could almost be made
>preposition-free if the verbs absorbed the role
>usually played by prepositions. For example, in
>English we can say "go into" or we can say "enter"
>which has a built-in, or implied prepositional
>meaning. Likewise "go out of" can be "exit", or
>"leave" and "go after" can be "pursue".
Senjecas uses postpositions but the principle is the same. From the
Senjecas grammar:
Rule #212. The construction consisting of an intransitive verb plus
a prepositional phrase, e.g., "he went with his friends," is not
used in Senjecas as it is in many modern languages. The idea is
expressed by a transitive verb and its direct object, e.g., "he
accompanied his friends."
I have not yet encountered every single situation, so I don't know
how faithful I can be to this rule, but I am trying.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (11)
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2c. Re: Implied prepositions
Posted by: "Dana Nutter" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:54 am (PDT)
li [Gary Shannon] mi tulis la
> It occured to me that a conlang could almost be made
> preposition-free if the verbs absorbed the role
> usually played by prepositions. For example, in
> English we can say "go into" or we can say "enter"
> which has a built-in, or implied prepositional
> meaning. Likewise "go out of" can be "exit", or
> "leave" and "go after" can be "pursue".
>
> English has a few additional such verbs ("ascend",
> "descend", "examine",...), but suppose a conlang had
> the associated preposition built in to every verb. The
> inventory of verbs would have to be much richer to
> accomodate all the various possibilities like "go to",
> "go into", "go out of", "go through", "go before (the
> judge)", "go after (the thief)", "go around", "go up",
> "go down", "go over", and so on.
>
> Perhaps the preopsition could become a prefix to the
> verb: "ingo", "outgo", "upgo", "downgo".
Sasxsek uses prepositions, but they can be prefixed to a root to alter
or clarify the meanings. So your examples above would be
"hinukin" = hin (interior) + u (prepositional suffix) +
kin (go/move)
"sotukin" = sot (exterior) + u (prepositional suffix) +
kin (go/move)
"nebukin" = neb (sky) + u (prepositional suffix) + kin
(go/move)
"nizukin" = niz (low) + u (prepositional suffix) + kin
(go/move)
> There would have to be more than one prefix for some
> English preopsitions which can be ambiguous. "At", for
> example: "He throws rocks at the park." could mean he
> is at the park and throwing rocks (at nothing in
> particular), or that he is outside the park throwing
> rocks toward the park. But I wonder how much sense it
> makes to attach a preposition giving the location of
> the action to the verb. It seems like it belongs
> attached to the sentence as a whole. "He is throwing
> rocks (while at the park)." vs "Rocks, he is
> throwing-at the park."
This would not be ambiguous in Sasxsek.
He is throwing rocks (while at the park)
lo {throw} kamen tu parak.
he throw stone at(=locative) park.
Rocks, he is throwing-at the park.
lo {throw} kamen fu parak.
he throw stone to/toward park.
Rocks, he is throwing-at the park.
lo {throw} kamen futu parak.
he throw stone to/toward+at park.
{*} = no word for "throw" in the lexicon yet.
------------------------------
dejnx nxtxr / Dana Nutter
LI SASXSEK LATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek
Messages in this topic (11)
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________________________________________________________________________
3a. Neimalu website
Posted by: "Pieterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:01 am (PDT)
I've copied some of my notes from my conlang Neimalu and put it on line:
http://pieterson.atspace.com. At first I wrote it for private use so it's in
Dutch only.
I'd appreciate comments.
Greetings,
Pieterson
Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Neimalu website
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:36 pm (PDT)
Hi!
Pieterson writes:
> I've copied some of my notes from my conlang Neimalu and put it on line:
> http://pieterson.atspace.com. At first I wrote it for private use so it's in
> Dutch only.
>
> I'd appreciate comments.
Quite elaborated!
I read that several suffixes have more than one form, also, some seem
to have some kind of umlaut in their case forms. Are there abstract
rules for this? Vowel harmony, etc.? Did I miss anything?
And what is the overall design goal? It looks quite similar in
structure to my Fukhian, but more elaborated.
To comment on the phonology: the normal vowels I found very
straightforwardly constructed (three-levels in height, front, back,
and the front high vowels exist both rounded and unrounded). When
reading about the diphthongs, however, I felt a strange mismatch that
the language has both /ej/ and /Ej/. Why is that so? In contrast to
the monophthongs, this is a very subtle distinction (and most
foreigners, e.g. me, don't learn this easily when trying to learn
Dutch).
Wrt. the cases: there is ablative and 'ellative' (what does the case
name derive from?). How is a locative expressed? By a preposition?
The case system seems to be quite similar to my Fukhian, there is even
the predicative case. I did not split the genitive though, and had a
locative (and the case names are slightly different, but very similar
in usage).
Of course, I like the evidenciality markers. Very handy. :-)
Is the lexicon completely a priori? It seems like a posteriori
sometimes ('préne' < frz. 'prendre'?).
Apart from the grammar itself, I found reading it in Dutch
entertaining because of the Germanic linguistic terminology that
German uses Latin for. It's a quiz for Germans. I knew some words,
but sometimes it was a challenge to guess what something meant (e.g.
wederkerende/wederkerig/betrekkelijk voornaamwoord). And then using
Dutch abbreviations is also fun (e.g. for nom, acc, dat, the tables
are sometimes labelled O, LV, MV). I like Dutch for this. :-)
BTW, I think in 5.2.1, the third example sentence seems to lack the
translation of 'will autorijden'.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________
4. Re: free word-order conlangs
Posted by: "And Rosta" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:34 pm (PDT)
Yahya Abdal-Aziz, On 20/07/2006 02:18:
> Hi And,
[...]
> I'd like to address these questions specifically as they relate to
> natlangs: Australian languages in general, including Warlpiri, Aranda
> and so on. I think doing so might shed some light on the bounds you
> seek in your "How free is free?" question.
[...]
> I hope you find this information useful.
I'm interested especially in conlangs that are unambiguous yet achieve
word-order -- or rather, information-order -- far freer than that found in
natlangs.
>From responses I've had so far, the conlang picture resembles the natlang one
>-- instances of great info-order freedome occur within the bounds of the
>clause, due to large amounts of inflection.
--And.
Messages in this topic (32)
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________________________________________________________________________
5a. Website: Old Sanhr
Posted by: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:08 pm (PDT)
Hello one and all!
The conlang that I've been working on considerably as of late is on der
interweb at <a
href="www.soapboxindustries.com">www.soapboxindustries.com</a>.
I'm quite slow at uploading from brain to paper to binary, but so far I've
got phonology, pronouns & postpositions, basic verb morphology, and a
brief overview of the "three-class" system that works on verbal roots
(accounting for the majority of roots in the language, as well as the only
productive ones for derivation).
I'm currently focusing on the issue of arguments, so I'll post for help on
that in the near future.
Thanks ahead of time for all criticism and witticism. It's definitely good
to be a part of a community, rather than a pariah conlanging out in a
cabin in the mountains.
Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Website: Old Sanhr
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:13 pm (PDT)
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:51:39 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
>Hello one and all!
>
>The conlang that I've been working on considerably as of late is on der
>interweb at <a
>href="www.soapboxindustries.com">www.soapboxindustries.com</a>.
>
>I'm quite slow at uploading from brain to paper to binary, but so far I've
>got phonology, pronouns & postpositions, basic verb morphology, and a
>brief overview of the "three-class" system that works on verbal roots
>(accounting for the majority of roots in the language, as well as the only
>productive ones for derivation).
>
>I'm currently focusing on the issue of arguments, so I'll post for help on
>that in the near future.
>
>Thanks ahead of time for all criticism and witticism. It's definitely good
>to be a part of a community, rather than a pariah conlanging out in a
>cabin in the mountains.
>=========================================================================
Welcome!
I checked out Old Sanhr. I have no specific comments, but it looks good.
You seem to know a fair amount of linguistics. I'll probably take another
look in the future, since I have an unfinished triconsonantal root conlang.
Jeff
Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________
6. Whatever Updated
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:20 pm (PDT)
Hi,
for those who are following this, I've created an alternate explanation of
the actant morphology at
http://qiihoskeh.livejournal.com/71719.html
I'm especially interested in hearing from those who found the original
version confusing.
The introductory pag is still at
http://qiihoskeh.livejournal.com/69535.html
Jeff
Messages in this topic (1)
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