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There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Going No-Mail
From: Henrik Theiling
1b. Re: Going No-Mail
From: Carsten Becker
2a. Re: Sound changes - whither retroflex sounds and glottal stop?
From: Kalle Bergman
2b. Re: Sound changes - whither retroflex sounds and glottal stop?
From: Dirk Elzinga
3a. Toki Pona Script
From: Henrik Theiling
3b. Re: Toki Pona Script
From: Gary Shannon
3c. Re: Toki Pona Script
From: Sai Emrys
3d. Re: Toki Pona Script
From: Henrik Theiling
4a. Re: Changes of conlangs and their speakers (was Re: Skerre Play
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
4b. Re: Changes of conlangs and their speakers (was Re: Skerre Play
From: Henrik Theiling
Messages
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1a. Re: Going No-Mail
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:59 pm (PDT)
Hi!
David J. Peterson writes:
> I'm yet again venturing to the land away from civilization (my
> girlfriend's parents' in Chico, where there's no TV, no newspaper,
> no cell phone reception, no internet, and where you have to
> "drive into town" to get to the nearest store--I love it!), so I'm
> going to be going no-mail for quite awhile (till the middle of
> August).
Wow! Enjoy! :-)
**Henrik, who likes electricity
Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Going No-Mail
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:32 am (PDT)
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 12:18 AM
> I'm yet again venturing to the land away from civilization
> (my girlfriend's parents' in Chico, where there's no TV,
> no newspaper, no cell phone reception, no internet, and
> where you have to "drive into town" to get to the nearest
> store--I love it!)
Sounds lovely...
> See you in August. :)
Have fun, despite the lack of civilisation!
Carsten
--
"Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Venena, Tyemuyang 15, 2315 ya 05:10:26 pd
Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Sound changes - whither retroflex sounds and glottal stop?
Posted by: "Kalle Bergman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:52 am (PDT)
Howdy
> With that out of the way, I want to ask if anyone
> knows what kinds of
> things a) retroflex consonants /.../
> can develop into
>From the top of my head; in my dialect of swedish,
/t`/ and /d`/ are frequently realized as [r`]. So is
/l/, so maybe /t`, d`/ -> /r`/ -> /l/ is a possible
route.
/Kalle B
--- Eric Christopherson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev:
> Hi, list! I've been away for a long time, but I've
> been pulled back
> in to the list and conlanging in general lately.
> For those of you
> who don't know, my main conlangs are Lainesco, which
> was a Romance
> language inspired by Spanish and Portuguese, and
> Dhakrathat, an a
> priori language that I've started over mostly from
> scratch several
> times. I'm now one of several people working on a
> descendant of an
> already-created protolanguage.
>
> With that out of the way, I want to ask if anyone
> knows what kinds of
> things a) retroflex consonants and b) glottal stop
> can develop into
> -- i.e. what they actually HAVE developed into in
> real-world
> languages, or more-or-less reasonable hypothetical
> outcomes. I've
> seen the question of where retroflex sounds *come
> from* treated here,
> but not what becomes of them.
>
> Right now, I've tentatively made them develop into
> something roughly
> palatal - either fully palatal or palatalized
> alveolar or alveolar + /
> j/. This doesn't feel very realistic to me, though.
> I suppose they
> could easily become alveolar, but that doesn't
> satisfy me since I
> don't want them to merge with the existing
> alveolars.
>
> As for glottal stop, I know it can drop out
> completely, and combine
> with other consonants to form glottalized ones, and
> I think in modern
> Nahuatl at least it comes out as /h/. I have an
> intuition that it
> might become /N/, but that might be a stretch.
>
Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: Sound changes - whither retroflex sounds and glottal stop?
Posted by: "Dirk Elzinga" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:01 pm (PDT)
Hey.
On 7/22/06, Patrick Littell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The glottal stop can affect tone, if you want to introduce tone. It
> can lead to either high or low, by different historical processes --
> I'll try to find some examples within a single language family if you
> want me to look it up. I believe it will affect tone on the previous
> vowel, but I don't know the specifics. (For example, did it need to
> be in the syllable coda to affect tone, or could it have been in the
> following syllable's onset? I don't know.)
Goshute (a variety of Shoshoni) has nascent tone which developed from
a medial glottal stop. In Western Shoshoni, there are several pairs of
words which are distinguished solely by the presence/absence of /Ê/:
[tsoÊapÊ°] /tsoÊappɨh/ 'ghost'
[tsoapʰ] /tsoappɨh/ 'shoulder'
[siÊipÊ°] /siÊippɨh/ 'sheep'
[siËpÊ°] /siËppɨh/ 'urine'
The Goshute cognate for 'ghost' is missing the glottal stop but has a
HL contour; 'shoulder' is the same as in Western Shoshoni (there is
also a "de-stridentization" of the affricate):
[tθóà pʰ] 'ghost'
[tθóápʰ] 'shoulder'
[sîËpÊ°] 'sheep'
[sÃËpÊ°] 'urine'
> Laryngealization of the vowel is another possibility. I'm pretty sure
> the laryngealization contrast in the Totonacan languages is derived
> from an earlier alternation between V and V? (with the latter becoming
> laryngealized V). I could look this up as well, if needed.
>
> Laryngealization or something like it can be a reasonable source for
> low tone later on, if you want it. Straight from glottal stop to tone
> would most likely give you high, but if glottal stop goes to
> laryngealization, you'll get low instead.
This seems to be the likely route for the Goshute tonal contour; in
Western Shoshoni, the vowels surrounding the glottal stop can be
pretty creaky.
Dirk
Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:11 am (PDT)
Hi!
During last week I finally managed to find some time for devising a
Toki Pona script, using dingbats and symbols from Unicode for the 118
root words.
I am happy to report that the inventor of Toki Pona, Sonja Elen Kisa,
found the script 'cute'! :-)
Please take a look and tell me what you think:
http://www.theiling.de/schrift/tokipona.html
Bye,
Henrik
Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:38 pm (PDT)
Very creative idea! I like it.
--gary
--- Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> During last week I finally managed to find some time
> for devising a
> Toki Pona script, using dingbats and symbols from
> Unicode for the 118
> root words.
><snip>
Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:55 pm (PDT)
Very cute.
I didn't even know most of those existed in Unicode. ¸ (U+2763) looks
like a bottom T to me, not a heart-!; presumably most the others are
likewise mismatched. So does this require a special font?
- Sai
Messages in this topic (4)
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3d. Re: Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:06 pm (PDT)
Hi!
Sai Emrys writes:
> Very cute.
Thanks! :-)
> I didn't even know most of those existed in Unicode. ¸ (U+2763)
> looks like a bottom T to me, not a heart-!; presumably most the
> others are likewise mismatched. So does this require a special font?
No, well-working software and Unicode fonts provided, it *should*
display quite well. Some characters are from recent Unicode
revisions, so my own browser does not show one or two characters
correctly, but otherwise, it works well for me.
The page itself should be viewable anyway, since I used images. The
online converter, however, can we switched to produce plain Unicode.
I guess you tried that, right? Otherwise, wrong glyphs, i.e., broken
.gif files, would really surprise me.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Changes of conlangs and their speakers (was Re: Skerre Play
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:59 pm (PDT)
Hallo!
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 00:59:52 +0200, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > [...] Haven't
> > heard of Danny Wier for two years, BTW.
>
> One day he'll return with the perfected Tech. ;)
We'll see if he manages. It is (or was) an over-ambitious project. While
he never posted a grammar sketch, he said more than once that his grammar
will be as complex as his phonology. I'd say it is pretty hard to follow
through a project like that. And quantity doesn't equal quality. What
Danny tried or still tries to do is what over there on the ZBB is called
a "kitchen sink language" - a language into which as much linguistic
complexity as possible is built. The truly refined conlanger knows that
he has to make a prudent choice which complexities to build into a conlang
and which to leave out of the game. I know many, many interesting features
which I decided not to build into Old Albic. I can explore them in other
conlang projects.
> I'm generally loth to change things in my conlangs once they've been "set",
so
> change in them tends to be by the adding of new material changing the centre
of
> gravity.
I am also reluctant against changing things that have already been published.
But there are a few things I now feel to be just plainly wrong, including the
remaining Tolkienisms in Old Albic and some of the ad-hoc words I made up
for past relays. But I think the grammar will stand, even though I found out
that there's another case (the perlative in -°th) and that the participles
are at least very little used.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (14)
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4b. Re: Changes of conlangs and their speakers (was Re: Skerre Play
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:17 pm (PDT)
Hi!
Jörg Rhiemeier writes:
> > One day he'll return with the perfected Tech. ;)
>
> We'll see if he manages. It is (or was) an over-ambitious project.
> While he never posted a grammar sketch, he said more than once that
> his grammar will be as complex as his phonology. I'd say it is
> pretty hard to follow through a project like that. And quantity
> doesn't equal quality. What Danny tried or still tries to do is
> what over there on the ZBB is called a "kitchen sink language" - a
> language into which as much linguistic complexity as possible is
> built. The truly refined conlanger knows that he has to make a
> prudent choice which complexities to build into a conlang and which
> to leave out of the game. ...
Some people do have the energy and the linguistic background to really
construct very complex languages. Therefore, I would not dare to
expect failure of any conlang project.
> ... But I think the grammar will stand, even though I found out
> that there's another case (the perlative in -°th) and that the participles
> are at least very little used.
I like perlatives. :-)
Does anyone have a conlang or knows a natlang with cases that
distinguishes more or different spatial (and/or temporal)
movement/change concepts than locative, allative, ablative and
perlative? (I only mean the basic concept, not the precise point of
reference: so I'd count Finnish as a language distinguishing three
concepts: locative, allative and ablative).
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (14)
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