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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Neimalu in English
From: Jeffrey Jones
2a. Re: Changes of conlangs and their speakers (was Re: Skerre Play
From: Eldin Raigmore
2b. Re: Changes of conlangs and their speakers (was Re: Skerre Play
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3a. Re: Toki Pona Script
From: Herman Miller
3b. Any serious investigation in Galactic languages from David Brin's
From: Gregory Gadow
3c. Re: Toki Pona Script
From: Philip Newton
3d. Re: Toki Pona Script
From: Tim May
3e. Re: Toki Pona Script
From: Henrik Theiling
3f. Re: Toki Pona Script
From: Henrik Theiling
3g. Re: Any serious investigation in Galactic languages from David Brin'
From: John Quijada
4a. Emphasis markers
From: Gary Shannon
4b. Re: Emphasis markers
From: Herman Miller
4c. Re: Emphasis markers
From: Sally Caves
4d. Re: Emphasis markers
From: caeruleancentaur
4e. Re: Emphasis markers
From: Carsten Becker
4f. Another Ozymandias
From: Damien Perrotin
4g. Another Ozymandias
From: Damien Perrotin
4h. Re: Another Ozymandias
From: Mark J. Reed
4i. Re: Emphasis markers
From: Dana Nutter
4j. Re: Another Ozymandias
From: Sally Caves
4k. Re: Another Ozymandias
From: Mark J. Reed
5a. Saruban tadayam ayedawi -- or, Goodbye for now!
From: Carsten Becker
5b. Re: Saruban tadayam ayedawi -- or, Goodbye for now!
From: Henrik Theiling
6a. Going nomail too
From: Tristan Alexander McLeay
6b. Re: Going nomail too
From: Henrik Theiling
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1. Re: Neimalu in English
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:40 pm (PDT)
On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 16:59:36 -0400, Pieterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>(I posted this earlier today, but the message seems to have disappeared.)
>
>I've translated a large part of my website to English, available here:
>
>http://pieterson.atspace.com/
>
>Pieterson
>=========================================================================
I took a quick look -- I see you have evidentials.
Some of the phonetic symbols come out as boxes for me. Also, I was
momentarily confused about the list of consonants having the same values as
IPA, because you listed the consonants in upper case.
Sorry to not have more to say right now.
Jeff
Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Changes of conlangs and their speakers (was Re: Skerre Play
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:55 pm (PDT)
---In [email protected], Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
>Jörg Rhiemeier writes:
[snip]
>>... But I think the grammar will stand, even though I found out
>>that there's another case (the perlative in -°th) ...
[snip]
>I like perlatives. :-)
>
> Does anyone have a conlang or knows a natlang with cases that
> distinguishes more or different spatial (and/or temporal)
> movement/change concepts than locative, allative, ablative and
> perlative? (I only mean the basic concept, not the precise point of
> reference: so I'd count Finnish as a language distinguishing three
> concepts: locative, allative and ablative).
>
> **Henrik
I'm not sure you're asking for a natlang for each, or for one natlang with
all.
It happens that Blake's "Case" does show some natlangs that distinguish
more. I think some Bantu languages are among them.
There are several degrees of closeness that may be involved;
* actual penetration
* adhesion/cohesion (but not necessarily penetration)
* contact (but not necessarily stickiness)
* just being nearby.
I think Swahili, or some other Bantu language, has three of these. So
a "locative" could come in three degrees;
* sort of vaguely close to,
* right up against,
* part of.
(I forget which three degrees are actually used, just as I forget which
language uses them. Sorry.)
You can see that a locative/adessive, an allative, an ablative, and a
perlative could have various incarnations in languages which both had more
than two degrees of "contact" and also had cases like the locative and/or
allative and/or ablative and/or perlative.
For instance, the penetrating perlative could be _through_ something; the
adhering perlative could be like, I don't know, maybe, dripping along a
stretched line or an elevated train moving along a monorail; the contact
perlative could be like actually rolling along a highway; and the vaguely-
nearby perlative could be like following a river along near its bank.
The penetrating allative would actually be an illative; the
cohering/adhering allative would be like hawking a loogy on someone; the
contact allative might be like a feather floating down to land on your
shoulder; and the sort-of-vaguely-nearby allative could be like the king
throwing largesse to the peasants.
Since English differentiates, in its "allative", between actual destination
(to) and direction of motion (toward); its reasonable to guess some
natlangs do so in their actual case-markings, and that they might also
distinguish between actual source and direction-from-which-it-comes (two
different kind of "ablative"-like notions). One would expect the same
could happen with "perlatives"; actual grazing contact vs just a close buzz-
by.
Does that help at all?
If not, at least you know I got the ideas from Barry J. Blake's "Case". I
no longer have a copy, but if you can locate one, you can find out the
details I am trying to recall.
-----
eldin
Messages in this topic (16)
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2b. Re: Changes of conlangs and their speakers (was Re: Skerre Play
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:45 am (PDT)
Hallo!
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 22:57:56 +0200, Henrik Theilin wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Jörg Rhiemeier writes:
> > > One day he'll return with the perfected Tech. ;)
> >
> > We'll see if he manages. It is (or was) an over-ambitious project.
> > While he never posted a grammar sketch, he said more than once that
> > his grammar will be as complex as his phonology. I'd say it is
> > pretty hard to follow through a project like that. And quantity
> > doesn't equal quality. What Danny tried or still tries to do is
> > what over there on the ZBB is called a "kitchen sink language" - a
> > language into which as much linguistic complexity as possible is
> > built. The truly refined conlanger knows that he has to make a
> > prudent choice which complexities to build into a conlang and which
> > to leave out of the game. ...
>
> Some people do have the energy and the linguistic background to really
> construct very complex languages. Therefore, I would not dare to
> expect failure of any conlang project.
Very true. And I cannot judge Danny with regard to this. However, what
I saw of Tech on the list looked as if he was progressing only slowly,
constantly revising his consonant inventory - and also the nature of his
"Elves": once they were the outcome of some bizarre Soviet genetics
experiments, later they were incarnate djinn.
We will see whether he'll come back with something to show some day.
Perhaps he hasn't posted lately because he is too busy working on Tech.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (16)
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________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:01 pm (PDT)
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Sai Emrys writes:
>> Very cute.
>
> Thanks! :-)
>
>> I didn't even know most of those existed in Unicode. ⦠(U+2763)
>> looks like a bottom T to me, not a heart-!; presumably most the
>> others are likewise mismatched. So does this require a special font?
Probably your browser is doing some kind of character substitution for
characters it doesn't recognize; ⣠and ⦠are different characters.
> No, well-working software and Unicode fonts provided, it *should*
> display quite well. Some characters are from recent Unicode
> revisions, so my own browser does not show one or two characters
> correctly, but otherwise, it works well for me.
>
> The page itself should be viewable anyway, since I used images. The
> online converter, however, can we switched to produce plain Unicode.
> I guess you tried that, right? Otherwise, wrong glyphs, i.e., broken
> .gif files, would really surprise me.
I like ᥠfor "animal" -- how long did it take to find that one? There
are some interesting creative uses of characters that otherwise don't
seem very useful, like the snowman character â (who'd have thought there
was a snowman character in Unicode?) for "cold". I'd like to know how
"snowman" ended up with a nice spot in the BMP, while "musical symbol
double sharp" (which seems far more useful to me) is in the barely
supported Page 1, but I guess someone must have had a reason.
While the online converter is a nice thing to have, I thought it would
be convenient to be able to type directly into a text editor, so I made
a Keyman keyboard for it.
ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/usr/hmiller/lang/TokiPona.kmx
You can type "mi wile toki li toki pona" and end up with â ⣠á â´ á
âº,
just like on the online converter page! You can even leave out the
spaces: ââ£áâ´áâº. You'll need Tavultesoft Keyman, which is at
http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/ , but it's free for home use.
Messages in this topic (11)
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3b. Any serious investigation in Galactic languages from David Brin's
Posted by: "Gregory Gadow" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:31 pm (PDT)
I've been reading Brin's "Uplift" books recently, and I was intruiged by
his use of twelve different "galactic standard" languages, each adapted
to different speech organs and types of thought patterns.
The books have been out for years, and I'm wondering if any conlangers
have taken a stab at constructing any of these languages?
Gregg Gadow
Messages in this topic (11)
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3c. Re: Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:29 am (PDT)
On 7/24/06, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Please take a look and tell me what you think:
Interesting! It reminds me of Blissymbolics.
I've had a plan to write Toki Pona in hanzi, using a vaguely
appropriate character for each root word, but that plan's been on the
back burner for ages. I like your approach, though!
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (11)
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3d. Re: Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Tim May" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:32 am (PDT)
Herman Miller wrote at 2006-07-24 20:48:44 (-0500)
> Henrik Theiling wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > Sai Emrys writes:
> >> Very cute.
> >
> > Thanks! :-)
> >
> >> I didn't even know most of those existed in Unicode. ? (U+2763)
> >> looks like a bottom T to me, not a heart-!; presumably most the
> >> others are likewise mismatched. So does this require a special
> >> font?
>
> Probably your browser is doing some kind of character substitution
> for characters it doesn't recognize; ? and ? are different
> characters.
Specifically, ? is U+2566, not U+2763. I doubt this has anything to
do with substitution in the browser, though.
Messages in this topic (11)
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3e. Re: Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:40 am (PDT)
Hi!
Herman Miller writes:
>...
> I like þÿå for "animal" -- how long did it take to find that one?
Yes, it took a while, but it was fun! :-)
I started out looking at dingbats, arrows, math symbols, etc. first
(there are quite a lot in Unicode). Then I remembered that Canadian
Aboriginal syllables might be well-suited, and indeed found a few
interesting pictures, too. And then I remembered that Ethiopic often
looks like people doing something funny, so I searched them, too, and
although it wasn't people I found, I found a cute little animal. :-)
(And then I looked at many, many other scripts, too.)
> There are some interesting creative uses of characters that
> otherwise don't seem very useful, like the snowman character þÿ&
> (who'd have thought there was a snowman character in Unicode?) for
> "cold". I'd like to know how "snowman" ended up with a nice spot in
> the BMP, while "musical symbol double sharp" (which seems far more
> useful to me) is in the barely supported Page 1, but I guess someone
> must have had a reason.
I would think that it is part of a standard symbol font that was felt
important for inclusion, so no selection took place, but the whole set
of symbols was used. The Zapf Dingbats U+2700 are also strange: there
are so many similar arrows and stars with only slightly different
decorations that it is surprising these occupy such a large portion of
the BMP. I suppose it was done to convince certain companies to
support the Unicode project at an early stage when the success was not
at all guaranteed otherwise.
> While the online converter is a nice thing to have, I thought it would
> be convenient to be able to type directly into a text editor, so I
> made a Keyman keyboard for it.
>
> ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/usr/hmiller/lang/TokiPona.kmx
>
> You can type "mi wile toki li toki pona" and end up with þÿ!Ê þÿ'c þÿH þÿ!´
> þÿH þÿ&:,
> just like on the online converter page! You can even leave out the
> spaces: þÿ!Ê'cH!´H&:. You'll need Tavultesoft Keyman, which is at
> http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/ , but it's free for home use.
Cool! Thanks! I added a link to my page.
Will see whether I can compose a mapping for SCIM (the X/Unix standard
tool for typing in various scripts).
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (11)
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3f. Re: Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:48 am (PDT)
Errm, what was that??? How did I manage to send that? I don't dare
to quote. I wrote a small, simple text with with the following words:
Herman Miller writes:
>...
> I like ? for "animal" -- how long did it take to find that one?
Yes, it took a while, but it was fun! :-)
I started out looking at dingbats, arrows, math symbols, etc. first
(there are quite a lot in Unicode). Then I remembered that Canadian
Aboriginal syllables might be well-suited, and indeed found a few
interesting pictures, too. And then I remembered that Ethiopic often
looks like people doing something funny, so I searched them, too, and
although it wasn't people I found, I found a cute little animal. :-)
(And then I looked at many, many other scripts, too.)
> There are some interesting creative uses of characters that
> otherwise don't seem very useful, like the snowman character =FE=FF&=03
> (who'd have thought there was a snowman character in Unicode?) for
> "cold". I'd like to know how "snowman" ended up with a nice spot in
> the BMP, while "musical symbol double sharp" (which seems far more
> useful to me) is in the barely supported Page 1, but I guess someone
> must have had a reason.
I would think that it is part of a standard symbol font that was felt
important for inclusion, so no selection took place, but the whole set
of symbols was used. The Zapf Dingbats U+2700 are also strange: there
are so many similar arrows and stars with only slightly different
decorations that it is surprising these occupy such a large portion of
the BMP. I suppose it was done to convince certain companies to
support the Unicode project at an early stage when the success was not
at all guaranteed otherwise.
> While the online converter is a nice thing to have, I thought it would
> be convenient to be able to type directly into a text editor, so I
> made a Keyman keyboard for it.
>
> ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/usr/hmiller/lang/TokiPona.kmx
>
> You can type "mi wile toki li toki pona" and end up with ...
> just like on the online converter page! You can even leave out the
> spaces: .... You'll need Tavultesoft Keyman, which is at
> http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/ , but it's free for home use.
Cool! Thanks! I added a link to my page.
Will see whether I can compose a mapping for SCIM (the X/Unix standard
tool for typing in various scripts).
(Now, will my stupid little computer post that unmodified please!)
**Henrik
PS: The reason was that my obviously totally broken, brain-dead
and now haywire GNUS reader marked the mail utf16-be, but then
sent ASCII characters!
*Very funny!* :-/
Sorry for that! At least that piece of software is not written
by myself, so I don't need to be embarrased about it's stupidity.
Messages in this topic (11)
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3g. Re: Any serious investigation in Galactic languages from David Brin'
Posted by: "John Quijada" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:57 pm (PDT)
Gregory Gadow wrote:
>I've been reading Brin's "Uplift" books recently, and I was intruiged by
>his use of twelve different "galactic standard" languages, each adapted
>to different speech organs and types of thought patterns.
>
>The books have been out for years, and I'm wondering if any conlangers
>have taken a stab at constructing any of these languages?
>=========================================================================
Brin describes each of the languages in his companion book "Contacting
Aliens: An Illustrated Guide to David Brin's Uplift Universe". (New York,
NY. Bantam Books, 2002).
I hereby nominate Ithkuil to represent either Gal 5 or Gal 12 based on the
following descriptions from that book:
Gal Five: "....A conversation in Gal Five sounds like dogs fighting on a
creaky sailing ship. It is totally unpronounceable by all Terragen, though
Chimps have attempted it."
Gal Twelve: "A throaty speech, 2 billion years old....Few humans can speak
rudimentary Gal Twelve and it remains unused by most clans. There are
evidently hidden properties to this tongue that we do not understand.
Perhaps we had best leave it alone till we know more."
Yeah...definitely Ithkuil as Gal 12....
--John Quijada
Messages in this topic (11)
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4a. Emphasis markers
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:17 pm (PDT)
In English we can say "What are you doing?" or we can
replace the simple "what" with the emphatic "what" by
placing any one of a number of emphasis markers after
the pronoun "what". Examples include "the hell", "in
the world", "in the name of all that is holy", "in
blue blazes", and so on. E.G. "What in the sam hill
are you doing?" (What does "sam hill" mean, anyway?)
These emphasis markers don't parse out in any
meaningful way, but serve only as conventionalized
signs to mark the emphatic "what".
But couldn't the emphasis be marked on the verb just
as easily? It's not done this way in English, but
other languages might use verb marking for emphasis,
as in "What are you by the hairs of Gaknar's beard
doing?"
I'm curious to see how other conlangs have marked
emphatic forms. Do you use ephasis marking words or
does your language have a different, emphatic form for
some words? Which part of the sentence is marked?
--gary
Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: Emphasis markers
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:10 pm (PDT)
Gary Shannon wrote:
> In English we can say "What are you doing?" or we can
> replace the simple "what" with the emphatic "what" by
> placing any one of a number of emphasis markers after
> the pronoun "what". Examples include "the hell", "in
> the world", "in the name of all that is holy", "in
> blue blazes", and so on. E.G. "What in the sam hill
> are you doing?" (What does "sam hill" mean, anyway?)
>
> These emphasis markers don't parse out in any
> meaningful way, but serve only as conventionalized
> signs to mark the emphatic "what".
>
> But couldn't the emphasis be marked on the verb just
> as easily? It's not done this way in English, but
> other languages might use verb marking for emphasis,
> as in "What are you by the hairs of Gaknar's beard
> doing?"
>
> I'm curious to see how other conlangs have marked
> emphatic forms. Do you use ephasis marking words or
> does your language have a different, emphatic form for
> some words? Which part of the sentence is marked?
>
> --gary
Word order can be used for emphasis, but Minza also has a particle "tø"
which is used for emphasis. It's an enclitic, which follows the first
word of whatever phrase is being emphasized. Minza has a small class of
words like this which change the tone, such as "le" which is used to
mark polite speech.
Cui naniena? [ËtÊui naËÅiÉna] What are you doing? (no emphasis)
what you.S-do-IMPF
Cui le naniena? Excuse me, would you mind telling me what you are doing?
Cui tø naniena? WHAT [the hell] are you doing? (emphasis on "what")
Cui naniena tø? What are you DOING? (emphasis on "doing")
Cui naniena øyx? What are you doing? (slight emphasis on "you")
Cui naniena tø øyx? What are YOU DOING? (emphasis on both "you" and "doing")
Cui tø naniena øyx? What [the hell] are YOU doing (emphasis on both
"what" and "you").
Øyx cui naniena? What are YOU doing? (more emphasis on "you")
Minza also has a word "igá" which is useful in this type of exclamation.
Igá! Cui tø niena ta? What the ... ? What [emph.] is being done here?
And the obligatory translation:
Ri dé tø sulúnici! They are not the hell your whales!
be not EMPH whale-PL-your.PL
(Correct usage is "ri tø dé".)
Messages in this topic (11)
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4c. Re: Emphasis markers
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:30 pm (PDT)
Emphasis is definitely something Teonaht needs, what with its rigid syntax,
which is becoming less rigid as I use it. I created emphasized pronouns a
while back that basically mean "he on his part," or "he himself," or "as for
me," ("as for me all blushing!") but I believe these could be applied to
articles and verbs as well:
Le tah el(l)o uafla
the (volitional) bird pret-it fly
Le airy tah elo uafla
The itself bird pret-it fly
I already have, rather Celtically,
uaflar le tah elo dey
Flying the bird pret-it do
Or more succinctly:
uafla airyi
"It FLIES
I rather like the German forms of emphasis with ja, aber, denn, doch, auch,
schon, etc., which change the emphatic structure of the sentence in subtle
ways.
Sally
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Shannon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 10:05 PM
Subject: Emphasis markers
> In English we can say "What are you doing?" or we can
> replace the simple "what" with the emphatic "what" by
> placing any one of a number of emphasis markers after
> the pronoun "what". Examples include "the hell", "in
> the world", "in the name of all that is holy", "in
> blue blazes", and so on. E.G. "What in the sam hill
> are you doing?" (What does "sam hill" mean, anyway?)
>
> These emphasis markers don't parse out in any
> meaningful way, but serve only as conventionalized
> signs to mark the emphatic "what".
>
> But couldn't the emphasis be marked on the verb just
> as easily? It's not done this way in English, but
> other languages might use verb marking for emphasis,
> as in "What are you by the hairs of Gaknar's beard
> doing?"
>
> I'm curious to see how other conlangs have marked
> emphatic forms. Do you use ephasis marking words or
> does your language have a different, emphatic form for
> some words? Which part of the sentence is marked?
>
> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (11)
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4d. Re: Emphasis markers
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:34 pm (PDT)
>Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I'm curious to see how other conlangs have marked
>emphatic forms. Do you use ephasis marking words or
>does your language have a different, emphatic form for
>some words? Which part of the sentence is marked?
I'm aware of only one emphatic marker in Senjecas. The deictic
adjectives "this" and "that" are pronouns in Senjecas and, as such,
are in apposition to their noun and follow it. Thus, "this ostrich"
becomes "ostrich this" in Senjecas, i.e., _jâânes des_. These two
deictic adjectives can take an emphatic marker, -ÿ-: _jâânes deÿês_
meaning something like "this ostrich right here as opposed to that
one over there."
Of course, that other ostrich could be emphasized: _jâânes
neÿês_, "that ostrich over there as opposed to this one right here.
Using a noun from another class, we might have: _dêmos deÿôs_, "this
house right here." And _dêmos neÿôs_, "that house over there."
BTW, <ÿ> = /j_0/.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (11)
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4e. Re: Emphasis markers
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:15 am (PDT)
Hi,
Gary has asked for equivalents to emphatics like "what the
heck" and such in our conlangs -- I have not thought about
how to do this in Ayeri yet to be honest. I have not thought
about cussing and strong language in general actually.
Someone else also started reporting on how their conlang
handles emphasis in general -- since Ayeri is a trigger
language, it marks emphasized noun phrases with the trigger,
which is either _-in_ (for animates) or _-on_ (for
inanimates). It is sometimes a bit problematic that only
NPs can be triggered -- verbal nouns do not count as NPs
here. I still have to work out how emphasis can be marked
as well. Since word order is technically irrelevant, maybe
fronting would be an opportunity, but then I had to figure
out how clefts should work. Stress would certianly be
another possibility.
Yours,
Carsten
--
"Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Palayena, Tyemuyang 16, 2315 ya 14:07:14 pd
Messages in this topic (11)
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4f. Another Ozymandias
Posted by: "Damien Perrotin" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:18 am (PDT)
Oops, forgot the link
http://erwan.arskoul.chez-alice.fr/ozymandiaslau.html
Messages in this topic (11)
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4g. Another Ozymandias
Posted by: "Damien Perrotin" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:23 am (PDT)
Another translation of Ozymandias, this time in Lautopaei. It's far
"weirder" than guthisk with an active structure and an aspect-based
verbal system.
As an aside, the language at the bottom is /bona fide/ Breton
Messages in this topic (11)
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4h. Re: Another Ozymandias
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:28 am (PDT)
Ok. So where are these things? :)
On 7/25/06, Damien Perrotin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Another translation of Ozymandias, this time in Lautopaei. It's far
> "weirder" than guthisk with an active structure and an aspect-based
> verbal system.
> As an aside, the language at the bottom is /bona fide/ Breton
>
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (11)
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4i. Re: Emphasis markers
Posted by: "Dana Nutter" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:50 pm (PDT)
li [Gary Shannon] mi tulis la
> I'm curious to see how other conlangs have marked
> emphatic forms. Do you use ephasis marking words or
> does your language have a different, emphatic form for
> some words? Which part of the sentence is marked?
Sasxsek uses a particle (ai) that precedes the emphasized word.
vo ho. = what are you doing?
vo ai ho. = *what* are you doing?
ai vo ho. = what are *you* doing?
------------------------------
dejnx nxtxr / Dana Nutter
LI SASXSEK LATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek
Messages in this topic (11)
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4j. Re: Another Ozymandias
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:59 pm (PDT)
This one looks at least as though it rhymes, but I see from the excerpt at
the bottom that the language seems designed to end on -e and -ae.
Actually, I don't translate poems anymore into Teonaht; they would only be
prose translations, and what would be the point of that unless you somehow
turned them into poems in your own conlang?
Part of the great power of Ozymandias is not what it *says* but how it says
it; the "off-rhymes" are incredible (did we decide what we were going to
call those? You'd vetoed "internal rhyme): land, stand, sand; tell, well;
the alliteration: "the hand that mocked them and the heart that fed." It's
an interesting exercise, but I'd prefer to translate prose and write
original poetry. I feel that way as well about direct translations of
Middle Welsh poetry. I've done it, but the question always remains this: do
you stick rigidly to the meaning of the origin language or do you focus on
making the target language poetic as well?
Sally
----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Perrotin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:11 PM
Subject: Another Ozymandias
> Oops, forgot the link
>
> http://erwan.arskoul.chez-alice.fr/ozymandiaslau.html
>
Messages in this topic (11)
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4k. Re: Another Ozymandias
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:26 pm (PDT)
On 7/25/06, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Part of the great power of Ozymandias is not what it *says* but how it says
> it; the "off-rhymes" are incredible (did we decide what we were going to
> call those? You'd vetoed "internal rhyme):
Was that to me? I didn't realize I had veto power. :)
> Do you stick rigidly to the meaning of the origin language or do you focus on
> making the target language poetic as well?
Allow me to state my opinion on the topic unequivocally:
Free verse is worth what you pay for it.
Blank verse leaves my face matching.
Slant rhyme should be slantier so the words slide right off the page
and disappear.
Capisce? :)
IMO, preserving the spirit of the form is more important than
preserving the literal meaning, else why make it poetic in the first
place?
That's not to say the exact form need be carried over - as with the
meaning, literality is not always the goal, and sometimes it's wholly
inappropriate. For instance, English "haikus" are far too easy to
construct if your only rule is 17 syllables. An embarrassment of
riches! Trying to come up with something meaningful in only 17
syllables of Japanese, *and* getting the obligatory nature theme in
there, is quite something. But in English?
In English, it's true
You can construct a "haiku"
(And make it rhyme, too)
No effort required
To create one, impromptu,
(And not be admired)
The meter is odd -
A taste that must be acquired -
But still it's not hard.
(Though one may suspect
That "hard" does not rhyme with "odd"
In my dialect)
I've never tried to translate poetry into a conlang. The temptation
to alter the language to make it work would be too great unless the
language were already sufficiently mature to resist such tampering.
So far none of mine are.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Saruban tadayam ayedawi -- or, Goodbye for now!
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:50 am (PDT)
Manisu Besuhey,
Simalayang, nárya ang no ningayin váris rua saráyang
taselaven. Arilang vaena yoming koronongiyatang adaley, ya
sekyunayang mesompánaris in Ruminkay ya 20an na Tyemuyang.
Kuniru ang tahoyiyu dikuyin kelanganley narakahuyam sang
mutuayang, sining semingayang saháyang ya Besuhey netoy
pesan sira sungayang metikanin. Setiloyayang ikan 'NOMAIL',
nárya senikuayang tadayea ayvá -- adanyoyreng ming
sahayang-ani benungea, sahayam benungea ayena apilisunama
ikan nasyayam siaris naráyang. Adanyareng nuniru sundalayam
kelanganley ya Besuhey, ya ZBB, yenukardangea aysarisaye
ayena nay ledonyéa ayena. Koronayang eng yomáraon
'benunglamayeley' nay saylara bukoyayereng mimangaris
benungena, nárya ekengaran nunoyonama eda-mindoyamyereng.
Krisyán
KENGU: Kaibunay, matahanayang memba eda-tamanley
yabahisea SI-MARINEA sira makyuniya ang Seli mandanaris
'Elinam ang naráynin kiuyam ...'. Yam matahanayang
edanyaley eri Ayeri palayin-nama nay tavyam naránarilaris
ahiroye narambesuheyam. Ang pukatára patanin le ming
tahanayang da-bakayon soyang sihiruyam matyamselangon
naynay, eri ming eryeváng tilangarilin ayalingoye naranoaris
amanisu evaena dikamyeyam siang nukelangisu mavayea 13anena
sinkyanyéna naynay, nárya ranayang si mehaiya narayam
eda-naranoaris yoming kamoyiyáng nusivatay aynaris, davano.
-- Phew, that was tough ... Again in English: --
Hello List,
I am sorry, but I want to tell you that I have to leave
quite soon. As some of you may know, I am going to start an
apprenticeship in Braunschweig on August 1st. Unfortunately,
the flat I am hiring has no telephone connection, so I will
not be able anymore to access the List until I have found a
solution. I won't go completely NOMAIL, but I will lurk most
of the time -- it is not the case that I cannot access the
internet at all, my internet access will just be very much
limited as far as I can tell. It is a pity to lose contact
to the List, the ZBB, my former classmates and my friends.
I know there are internet cafés and that libraries
are often offering internet access as well, but these
options are just too expensive.
Yours,
Carsten
NB: I had, BTW, originally written the mail some days BEFORE
Sally came up with the 'What is it we are saying ...'
thread. I wrote this in Ayeri just for fun and to gain some
new entries for the dictionary. That I can write such stuff
in Ayeri as well as translate a whole computer program
proves that with some clever changes, one can use one's
conlang for 21st-century-world related topics as well,
although the culture that is supposed to speak this
language is maybe not yet as advanced as we are today.
--
"Miranayam kepauara naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Palayena, Tyemuyang 14, 140B
Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Saruban tadayam ayedawi -- or, Goodbye for now!
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:45 am (PDT)
Hi!
Carsten Becker writes:
> Simalayang, nárya ang no ningayin váris rua saráyang
>...
> eda-naranoaris yoming kamoyiyáng nusivatay aynaris, davano.
My conlangs are less mature, I think...
> Hello List,
>
> I am sorry, but I want to tell you that I have to leave
> quite soon. ...
I wish you all luck, joy and fun in Braunschweig! :-)
Looking forward to seeing you on the list again!
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Going nomail too
Posted by: "Tristan Alexander McLeay" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:37 am (PDT)
Now that second semester's started, I'm also going nomail. See yaz all
in November.
--
Tristan.
Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: Going nomail too
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:01 am (PDT)
Hi!
Tristan Alexander McLeay writes:
> Now that second semester's started, I'm also going nomail. See yaz
> all in November.
So many people going nomail! :-(
Looking forward to seeing you later, then.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (2)
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