There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Another Ozymandias
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
1b. Re: Another Ozymandias
From: Mark J. Reed
1c. Re: Another Ozymandias
From: Philip Newton
1d. Re: Another Ozymandias
From: Sally Caves
1e. Re: Another Ozymandias
From: Sally Caves
1f. Re: Another Ozymandias
From: Mark J. Reed
2. Re: Going nomail too
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
3a. Re: Saruban tadayam ayedawi -- or, Goodbye for now!
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
3b. Re: Saruban tadayam ayedawi -- or, Goodbye for now!
From: Carsten Becker
4. Re: Toki Pona Script
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
5a. Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
5b. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Sally Caves
5c. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: René Uittenbogaard
5d. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
5e. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Mark J. Reed
5f. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Kalle Bergman
5g. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Andreas Johansson
5h. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Andreas Johansson
5i. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
5j. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Andreas Johansson
6. Lisanek
From: wayne chevrier
7a. Re: CA Bay Area (and nearby) conlang meetup next month
From: Arthaey Angosii
7b. Re: CA Bay Area (and nearby) conlang meetup next month
From: Sai Emrys
8. Re: Website: Old Sanhr
From: Edgard Bikelis
9. Re: TECH: Switching to a better e-mail program
From: Peter Ara Guekguezian
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Another Ozymandias
Posted by: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:46 am (PDT)
Hi Damien,
On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Damien Perrotin wrote:
> Another translation of Ozymandias, this time in Lautopaei. It's far
> "weirder" than guthisk with an active structure and an aspect-based
> verbal system.
> As an aside, the language at the bottom is /bona fide/ Breton
>
...
> http://erwan.arskoul.chez-alice.fr/ozymandiaslau.html
Your Lautopaei page http://erwan.arskoul.chez-alice.fr/lautopaei.htm gives an
excellent description of the language. I adore the phonology! - something I
can get my head and tongue around fairly easily; tho I do tend to diphthongize
vowel sequences and hurry long vowels, I'd say I could get the hang of it
fairly readily. Your section on Verbal morphology is clear, and the examples
illustrate your intentions for aspect, certainty and direction well; however,
you don't appear to have listed a mood marker for indicative (is it null?) and
examples for the other two moods would clarify their intended usage. These
quibbles aside, I think this page is a tidy example of how one might document a
language without getting buried in technicalities.
Regards,
Yahya
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Messages in this topic (26)
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1b. Re: Another Ozymandias
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:05 am (PDT)
On 7/25/06, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Clear as mud I fear.
> Did you mean to say your face
> was only itching? :)
Heh No, I meant the expression. Blank, like the verse. :)
> Is "slant" rhyme what we're talking about in Ozymandias with the well/tell
> etc.?
No, no. Slant rhyme is, for my money, non-rhyme pretending to be
rhyme. :) Technically, it's final consonance without any
corresponding rhyme in the preceding vowel ("mad"/"God", "on"/"soon"
in most 'lects, etc). In other words, it's cheating. If you're going
to apply constraints to spark creativity, apply some meaningful ones.
:)
The term is also used to describe the Irish/Welsh pattern we talked
about earlier in which the rhyme is in a final unstressed syllable
with no match in the stressed one ("bodies"/'"ladies"); I don't find
that form quite as objectionable.
> Etonen yllefon
> Amendorln mimmeslim nom;
> Yry uon fraga. :( :(
... which means?
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (26)
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1c. Re: Another Ozymandias
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:52 am (PDT)
On 7/26/06, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 7/25/06, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Etonen yllefon
> > Amendorln mimmeslim nom;
> > Yry uon fraga. :( :(
>
> ... which means?
To be
Or not to be
That is the question
obviously; the "fraga" in the last line gives it away.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (26)
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1d. Re: Another Ozymandias
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:02 am (PDT)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On 7/25/06, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Clear as mud I fear.
>> Did you mean to say your face
>> was only itching? :)
>
> Heh No, I meant the expression. Blank, like the verse. :)
Ah! So that it matches the blankness. Does that mean it leaves you cold?
I rather like it, in Shakespeare and others, that is. Milton uses it
superbly!
>> Is "slant" rhyme what we're talking about in Ozymandias with the
>> well/tell etc.?
>
> No, no. Slant rhyme is, for my money, non-rhyme pretending to be
> rhyme. :) Technically, it's final consonance without any
> corresponding rhyme in the preceding vowel ("mad"/"God", "on"/"soon"
> in most 'lects, etc). In other words, it's cheating. If you're going
> to apply constraints to spark creativity, apply some meaningful ones.
> :)
Thanks, I wasn't sure. Yes. Absolutely. It should disappear. Lots of
popular lyrics do that, where the music sort of makes up for it.
> The term is also used to describe the Irish/Welsh pattern we talked
> about earlier in which the rhyme is in a final unstressed syllable
> with no match in the stressed one ("bodies"/'"ladies"); I don't find
> that form quite as objectionable.
Nor do I, if it's within an established poetic tradition. If it isn't, then
it galumphs.
>> Etonen yllefon
>> Amendorln mimmeslim nom;
>> Yry uon fraga. :( :(
>
> ... which means?
Heh heh... too deliciously obscene to translate. :) I'm thinking of
something rather like it for a future relay.
Sally
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Another Ozymandias
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:05 am (PDT)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Newton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On 7/26/06, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On 7/25/06, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Etonen yllefon
>> > Amendorln mimmeslim nom;
>> > Yry uon fraga. :( :(
>>
>> ... which means?
>
> To be
> Or not to be
> That is the question
>
> obviously; the "fraga" in the last line gives it away.
LOL! I'll accept that.
Bär
oder nicht bär.
Das ist hier die Frage.
Written on a wall near the "bear pit" in Bern.
Sally
Messages in this topic (26)
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1f. Re: Another Ozymandias
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:36 am (PDT)
On 7/26/06, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ah! So that it matches the blankness. Does that mean it leaves you cold?
> I rather like it, in Shakespeare and others, that is. Milton uses it
> superbly!
Not everyone is Shakespeare or Milton, though. This one is admittedly
more of a personal quirk of mine, but purely rhythmic patterns just
don't do much for me. Too subtle for my ear, I guess.
> Lots of popular lyrics do that, where the music sort of makes up for it.
Ah, well, if pop music does it, it must be OK. :)
There's at least one English-language version of Dante's _Inferno_
that makes heavy use of slant rhyme. I mean, kudos for actually
bothering to try and match the 121/232/343/ rhyme pattern of the
original Italian, instead of simply declaring that it can't be done in
English while staying true to the meaning. But when those rhymes are
slanted, it kinda defeats the whole effort. All IMHO, of course.
> Heh heh... too deliciously obscene to translate. :) I'm thinking of
> something rather like it for a future relay.
Okay. Fraga away, then. :)
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (26)
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2. Re: Going nomail too
Posted by: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:53 am (PDT)
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 Tristan Alexander McLeay wrote:
>
> Now that second semester's started, I'm also going nomail. See yaz all
> in November.
Tristan,
Enjoy your studies! If you don't mind, I won't bother trying to contribute
AusE pronunciations to any YAEPTs that occur ...
Best,
Yahya
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Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Saruban tadayam ayedawi -- or, Goodbye for now!
Posted by: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:01 am (PDT)
On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 Carsten Becker wrote:
>
> Manisu Besuhey,
>
> Simalayang, nárya ang no ningayin váris rua saráyang
> taselaven. Arilang vaena yoming koronongiyatang adaley, ya
> sekyunayang mesompánaris in Ruminkay ya 20an na Tyemuyang.
> Kuniru ang tahoyiyu dikuyin kelanganley narakahuyam sang
> mutuayang, sining semingayang saháyang ya Besuhey netoy
> pesan sira sungayang metikanin. Setiloyayang ikan 'NOMAIL',
> nárya senikuayang tadayea ayvá -- adanyoyreng ming
> sahayang-ani benungea, sahayam benungea ayena apilisunama
> ikan nasyayam siaris naráyang. Adanyareng nuniru sundalayam
> kelanganley ya Besuhey, ya ZBB, yenukardangea aysarisaye
> ayena nay ledonyéa ayena. Koronayang eng yomáraon
> 'benunglamayeley' nay saylara bukoyayereng mimangaris
> benungena, nárya ekengaran nunoyonama eda-mindoyamyereng.
>
> Krisyán
>
> KENGU: Kaibunay, matahanayang memba eda-tamanley
> yabahisea SI-MARINEA sira makyuniya ang Seli mandanaris
> 'Elinam ang naráynin kiuyam ...'. Yam matahanayang
> edanyaley eri Ayeri palayin-nama nay tavyam naránarilaris
> ahiroye narambesuheyam. Ang pukatára patanin le ming
> tahanayang da-bakayon soyang sihiruyam matyamselangon
> naynay, eri ming eryeváng tilangarilin ayalingoye naranoaris
> amanisu evaena dikamyeyam siang nukelangisu mavayea 13anena
> sinkyanyéna naynay, nárya ranayang si mehaiya narayam
> eda-naranoaris yoming kamoyiyáng nusivatay aynaris, davano.
>
>
> -- Phew, that was tough ... Again in English: --
>
>
> Hello List,
>
> I am sorry, but I want to tell you that I have to leave
> quite soon. As some of you may know, I am going to start an
> apprenticeship in Braunschweig on August 1st. Unfortunately,
> the flat I am hiring has no telephone connection, so I will
> not be able anymore to access the List until I have found a
> solution. I won't go completely NOMAIL, but I will lurk most
> of the time -- it is not the case that I cannot access the
> internet at all, my internet access will just be very much
> limited as far as I can tell. It is a pity to lose contact
> to the List, the ZBB, my former classmates and my friends.
> I know there are internet cafés and that libraries
> are often offering internet access as well, but these
> options are just too expensive.
>
> Yours,
> Carsten
>
> NB: I had, BTW, originally written the mail some days BEFORE
> Sally came up with the 'What is it we are saying ...'
> thread. I wrote this in Ayeri just for fun and to gain some
> new entries for the dictionary. That I can write such stuff
> in Ayeri as well as translate a whole computer program
> proves that with some clever changes, one can use one's
> conlang for 21st-century-world related topics as well,
> although the culture that is supposed to speak this
> language is maybe not yet as advanced as we are today.
Carsten,
This is a truly impressive bit of work! Actually translating a sizeable
message for its content (rather than its asthetic values, which remain evident,
alone) requires a considerable grasp of both grammar and vocabulary. You've
taken Ayeri to a level of usability that many conlangs never achieve. I
deliberately quoted your entire message, just to invite others to consider the
magnitude of such a translation. This has definitely helped me set a personal
goal: to take Uiama at a level where I can produce something of similar size
and complexity, albeit adjusted to suit the culture of the Uiama makpo.
Braunschweig, eh? My wife started school in the Melbourne suburb of Brunswick,
which is the same name in English, tho a very different place. I do hope you
enjoy yourself there, and that your apprenticeship is everything you would wish
it to be.
I will miss your sensible and interesting input to the list. Please come back
to us just as soon as you can!
Regards,
Yahya
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Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Saruban tadayam ayedawi -- or, Goodbye for now!
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:54 am (PDT)
From: "Henrik Theiling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:35 PM
> My conlangs are less mature, I think...
Yahya also said that (haven't received your mail yet, just
saw it on the web). My suggestion: Translate like hell,
anything, that's the best way to grow your conlang's
vocabulary. Also, Ayeri's grammar isn't too complicated,
although the last sentence gave me a headache. And, as I
said, I cheated a little regarding modern world terms: For
example, "telephone" was translated as "for far speaking"
(narakahuyam) and "internet" is just "net, web" (benung).
When I once translated the program Stardownloader into Ayeri
I had to do a lot more such tweaking, e.g. using "library"
(bukoya) for "server", "record" (avantisa) for "file",
"counting machine" (selangkuran) for "computer" and "to
load off" (setimaváo) for "to download" and such. It was
quite fun, although useless because I don't know enough
Ayeri myself to be able to use the translation.
> I wish you all luck, joy and fun in Braunschweig! :-)
Thanks!
> Looking forward to seeing you on the list again!
Me too. I still intend to *read* the list at least by
downloading the MIME Digests from time to time. That way,
I'm not completely up to date, but still get to read
interesting stuff.
As for breaking contact to people I know IRL -- well, it's
was maybe bit exaggerated. I have no telephone in my flat,
but I still have a mobile phone.
Carsten
--
"Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Siruena, Tyemuyang 17, 2315 ya 23:22:32 pd
Messages in this topic (4)
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4. Re: Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:04 am (PDT)
Hi Henrik,
On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Errm, what was that??? How did I manage to send that? I don't dare
> to quote. I wrote a small, simple text with with the following words:
Neither format was entirely clear to me - the first had hollow squares, whilst
the second had MIME codes with equals signs (I'm viewing in UTF-8).
[snip]
> I started out looking at dingbats, arrows, math symbols, etc. first
> (there are quite a lot in Unicode). Then I remembered that Canadian
> Aboriginal syllables might be well-suited, and indeed found a few
> interesting pictures, too. And then I remembered that Ethiopic often
> looks like people doing something funny, so I searched them, too, and
> although it wasn't people I found, I found a cute little animal. :-)
>
> (And then I looked at many, many other scripts, too.)
[snip]
You asked for comments. Here they are, then!
For keyboard & typeset use, I think you've chosen pretty suitable characters
overall, tho I'm not entirely rapt in those for colour names. Those seem to
lack any kind of logic in selection except that they be rather similar to each
other; but that similarity may mark them hard to distinguish. May I suggest
using circled digits instead (I'm pretty sure you'll find at least one set),
following the rainbow spectrum, as follows:
0 black
1 red
2 orange
3 yellow
4 green
5 cyan
6 blue
7 indigo
8 violet
9 white
- or a subset of these for those colours that actually appear in Toki Pona.
(I'm making the radical assumption that Toki Pona could use Arabic numerals.)
However, for handwritten use, many of the symbols are too complex to write
quickly and too rectilinear to readily approximate cursively. Ideally, I
think, a practical script for any language will enable quick and fluid reading
and writing. And it doesn't hurt if it looks beautiful, too, but that's a bit
harder to achieve.
HTH!
Regards,
Yahya
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5a. Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:46 am (PDT)
Sally Caves skrev:
> Actually, it was a plural you, since I couldn't remember who corrected
> me. Damn language ambiguity! Shoulda said "y'all."
How about people's a-priori conlangs: are there any that
have this (to me) weird syncretism of numbers in the second
person pronouns -- apart of course from English- speaking
conlangers' newbie relexes, or languages that simply don't
distinguish number, of course. And what about honorific/
polite second person pronouns? AFAIK there are five
possible strategies for these in natlangs:
(1) second person plural for polite second person singular.
(2) third person singular for polite second person singular.
(3) third person plural for polite second person singular.
(4) third person plural for polite second person plural.
(5) a distinct set of polite pronouns -- usually with
distinct forms for different persons and numbers.
Obviously (4) implies simultaneous (2), but not the other
way around. NB not all of these are exotic from a
Eurocentric POV: German has (3)+(4), Italian has (2)
verging on (5), Swedish had (2)+(4) until not so long ago,
and Spanish is sort of (5).
FWIW honorific 1st person pronouns occur in natlangs
-- usually as "deference forms", but are there 'aloofness
forms' too, at least in some conlang?
AFMOCs Mærik is (2)+(4) like older Swedish, Slvanjek is (1),
being a 'typical' Romance language, while Sohlob -- a-
priori, and without the cultural ties to any 'real' language
that Mærik has -- is (2)+(5), there being degrees of
politeness.
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
I'm afraid the current situation in the Eastern
Mediterranean forces me to reinstate this signature...
Messages in this topic (26)
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5b. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:34 am (PDT)
Great question, Benct!
Since Teonaht does not distinguish number in its verbs (except the copula,
which is rarely used), I guess it can't answer most of your questions. But
there are honorific and non honorific forms of the second person, that I
have unimaginatively labeled "familiar" and "formal."
Fy/fel/fyry/fyryi (Subject, object, emphasized Agent and Experiencer)
This is non-honorific. You are addressing a peer, a friend, a child, a
family member, or you are speaking down to someone.
Sy/sed/syry/syryi
Honorific. You are addressing someone you don't know, a superior, you are
being polite to a customer, etc.
Another form of the honorific in Teonaht is to address the person by his
title, constantly: Does the Sir/Madam wish to examine another coat? May I
interest the Sir/Madam in an accompanying belt? etc. Have I offended the
Sir/Madam?
Le hmeo il kadroplyft kerem lohdar dihs?
the Sir the overcoat see he question wish?
(the resumptive pronoun will be in the third person)
Imperatives are honorific or non-honorific. One uses the future form for
polite discourse when issuing a command (or rather inviting someone to take
a future course of action):
You will take the butter and mix it with the sugar.
Deygrin essy uen, send pomil hsakra ain essy vigla.
Butter will-you take, and with-the sugar it will you mix
The Sir/Madam will take the road to the left and go straight to the
intersection.
Or, with plural subjects, one can use the hortative, including oneself in
the "command":
Let us take the road to the left.
Il naor hsinvvary euants.
The road leftward let-us-travel.
Non honorific commands are more direct, and require a suffix. Vera vektof!
"Don't frown." Mingadol gombref. "Buy some meat."
I LOVE the idea of honorific first person forms! But as you say they would
be deferential. In Teonaht, the only thing that approaches that is the
emphasized form with some kind of deferential adjective:
Yryi hdarodel...
"asking me, ..."
"As for me askingful, ...
etc.
Sally
----- Original Message -----
From: "Benct Philip Jonsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 7:31 AM
Subject: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
> Sally Caves skrev:
>
>> Actually, it was a plural you, since I couldn't remember who corrected
>> me. Damn language ambiguity! Shoulda said "y'all."
>
> How about people's a-priori conlangs: are there any that
> have this (to me) weird syncretism of numbers in the second
> person pronouns -- apart of course from English- speaking
> conlangers' newbie relexes, or languages that simply don't
> distinguish number, of course. And what about honorific/
> polite second person pronouns? AFAIK there are five
> possible strategies for these in natlangs:
>
> (1) second person plural for polite second person singular.
> (2) third person singular for polite second person singular.
> (3) third person plural for polite second person singular.
> (4) third person plural for polite second person plural.
> (5) a distinct set of polite pronouns -- usually with
> distinct forms for different persons and numbers.
>
> Obviously (4) implies simultaneous (2), but not the other
> way around. NB not all of these are exotic from a
> Eurocentric POV: German has (3)+(4), Italian has (2)
> verging on (5), Swedish had (2)+(4) until not so long ago,
> and Spanish is sort of (5).
>
> FWIW honorific 1st person pronouns occur in natlangs
> -- usually as "deference forms", but are there 'aloofness
> forms' too, at least in some conlang?
>
> AFMOCs Mærik is (2)+(4) like older Swedish, Slvanjek is (1),
> being a 'typical' Romance language, while Sohlob -- a-
> priori, and without the cultural ties to any 'real' language
> that Mærik has -- is (2)+(5), there being degrees of
> politeness.
>
>
> --
>
> /BP 8^)>
> --
> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
>
> Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
> (Tacitus)
>
> I'm afraid the current situation in the Eastern
> Mediterranean forces me to reinstate this signature...
>
Messages in this topic (26)
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5c. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:52 am (PDT)
On 7/26/06, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Another form of the honorific in Teonaht is to address the person by his
> title, constantly: Does the Sir/Madam wish to examine another coat? May I
> interest the Sir/Madam in an accompanying belt? etc. Have I offended the
> Sir/Madam?
Two or three generations ago, there seem to have been families in the
Netherlands in which it was not uncommon to adress the parents with
"vader" and "moeder" (the polite form "u" was apparently not
considered polite enough).
Vindt vader het goed als ik vertrek?
Does father allow me to go?
> I LOVE the idea of honorific first person forms!
Aren't humble first person forms much more common?
AFMCL, Calénnawn attaches the diminutive suffix (-tu) to the first
person personal pronoun (e) to obtain the humble form. Honorative is
marked on the verb.
Étu obóllovo baw, bánol.
I (humble) greet thee (polite), sir.
René
Messages in this topic (26)
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5d. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:56 am (PDT)
Sally Caves skrev:
> Great question, Benct!
>
> Since Teonaht does not distinguish number in its verbs (except the
> copula, which is rarely used), I guess it can't answer most of your
> questions.
A language may distinguish number, and person,
in its pronouns without distinguishing number/person
in its verbs. In fact it is quite common. To go
only to my front yard (ha, I love standing set
phrases on their head!) Swedish has lost all person
and number distinction in verbs (using the erstwhile
third person singular throughout), but preserved its
personal pronouns. I wonder if the opposite --
number/person distinctions in the verb but not in
pronouns -- even exists. Our familiar Indo-European
languages of course use the same form of the verb
for all genders even in the third person singular,
unlike many languages from other families.
> But there are honorific and non honorific forms of the
> second person, that I have unimaginatively labeled "familiar" and "formal."
Schlabels schmabels. I think that "familiar" vs. "honorific"
are the popular terms now, while "formal" was popular in an
earlier, more formal period. Whatever label you use you
still have to know what you mean by it!(*)
> Fy/fel/fyry/fyryi (Subject, object, emphasized Agent and Experiencer)
>
> This is non-honorific. You are addressing a peer, a friend, a child, a
> family member, or you are speaking down to someone.
>
> Sy/sed/syry/syryi
>
> Honorific. You are addressing someone you don't know, a superior, you
> are being polite to a customer, etc.
Some languages of course have a whole different set of
vocabulary to be used in formal/honorific situations,
including how you refer to yourself in the presence of
a 'honorable' person -- yes, the language changes in the
presence of such a person, even if s/he is not an inter-
locutor, and often even when talking *about* them in
their absence! The Sohlob languages (my conlang family)
actually tends to this side of the scale. I guess
things may get more and more complicated if I would
write/translate texts involving such distinctions.
> Another form of the honorific in Teonaht is to address the person by his
> title, constantly: Does the Sir/Madam wish to examine another coat?
> May I interest the Sir/Madam in an accompanying belt? etc. Have I
> offended the Sir/Madam?
Swedish, until some forty years ago, did that, but went
one step further, using not only Sir/Madam, but the
persons occupational title as a word of address.
I for instance would have been adressed as Kandidaten
(i.e. the academic Candidate degree9 for most of
my life. In fact _min Herre/Herrn_ or _Frun_ was used
only with people so lowly as to not have any occupational
tiles, although servants would address their employers
with these titles, and _Frun_ of course was the correct
address for a housewife, so there were proportionally
more women addressed _Frun_ than there were men adressed
_Herrn_ -- once you knew their occupation that is.
One interresting aspect of this is that when the system
eventually was abolished people started using the familiar
second person singular pronoun _du_ to everyone. There
had been some use of the second person plural _ni_
with singular reference on the French model, but this
had been associated with people who didn't wish to
draw attention to their 'lowly' occupation, yet be
formal towards one another, and so this usage was
frowned upon by practitioners of the occupational
title addressing system. FWIW the use of singular
_ni_ has bcome in vogue in later years among younger
people who want to affect social distance or
'uppity'. I and many with me frown on it as being
stuck-up rather than polite. I usually answer such
address in the first person plural, and AFAIK none
of these pompous brats has understood what I was
doing. Of course they don't know about the
_pluralis majestatis_ any more than they know about
the real stylistic value of the "V-forms" in Swedish.
This said I have a real hard time not to perceive
the use of polite forms in other languages as
pompous...
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
I'm afraid the current situation in the Eastern
Mediterranean forces me to reinstate this signature...
Messages in this topic (26)
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5e. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:57 am (PDT)
On 7/26/06, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Of course they don't know about the
> _pluralis majestatis_ any more than they know about
> the real stylistic value of the "V-forms" in Swedish.
I find that surprising - the first part, I mean. The "royal we" is a
very well-known phenomenon among even young and uneducated
Anglophones...
My conlangs have only the singular/plural distinction. I consciously
avoided degrees of formality/familiarity/politeness as a sort of
correctional overcompensation to avoid some of the pitfalls associated
with alien languages. At the time it felt like every time some SF
author "created" an alien language [in quotes because most of the time
the reader encountered the alleged language only in English
translation] it was described as being chock full of all sorts of
esoteric distinctions governed by intonation and/or vocabulary choice;
stereotypical exotica stuff. I wanted to avoid any such
association.... but perhaps that decision warrants revisiting.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (26)
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5f. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Kalle Bergman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:26 am (PDT)
> FWIW the use of singular
> _ni_ has bcome in vogue in later years among younger
> people who want to affect social distance or
> 'uppity'.
This is a pet peeve of mine as well :). My reasons are
more political, though; it has always been very
satisfying to my socialist heart that swedish has such
an egalitarian pronoun-system :) (as if for instance
english was any different :p).
I really think most kids are sincerely doing it to be
polite, however. They just don't get that many older
people will be annoyed rather than flattered.
/Kalle B
--- Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev:
> Sally Caves skrev:
> > Great question, Benct!
> >
> > Since Teonaht does not distinguish number in its
> verbs (except the
> > copula, which is rarely used), I guess it can't
> answer most of your
> > questions.
>
> A language may distinguish number, and person,
> in its pronouns without distinguishing number/person
> in its verbs. In fact it is quite common. To go
> only to my front yard (ha, I love standing set
> phrases on their head!) Swedish has lost all person
> and number distinction in verbs (using the erstwhile
> third person singular throughout), but preserved its
> personal pronouns. I wonder if the opposite --
> number/person distinctions in the verb but not in
> pronouns -- even exists. Our familiar Indo-European
> languages of course use the same form of the verb
> for all genders even in the third person singular,
> unlike many languages from other families.
>
> > But there are honorific and non honorific forms
> of the
> > second person, that I have unimaginatively labeled
> "familiar" and "formal."
>
> Schlabels schmabels. I think that "familiar" vs.
> "honorific"
> are the popular terms now, while "formal" was
> popular in an
> earlier, more formal period. Whatever label you use
> you
> still have to know what you mean by it!(*)
>
> > Fy/fel/fyry/fyryi (Subject, object, emphasized
> Agent and Experiencer)
> >
> > This is non-honorific. You are addressing a peer,
> a friend, a child, a
> > family member, or you are speaking down to
> someone.
> >
> > Sy/sed/syry/syryi
> >
> > Honorific. You are addressing someone you don't
> know, a superior, you
> > are being polite to a customer, etc.
>
> Some languages of course have a whole different set
> of
> vocabulary to be used in formal/honorific
> situations,
> including how you refer to yourself in the presence
> of
> a 'honorable' person -- yes, the language changes in
> the
> presence of such a person, even if s/he is not an
> inter-
> locutor, and often even when talking *about* them in
> their absence! The Sohlob languages (my conlang
> family)
> actually tends to this side of the scale. I guess
> things may get more and more complicated if I would
> write/translate texts involving such distinctions.
>
> > Another form of the honorific in Teonaht is to
> address the person by his
> > title, constantly: Does the Sir/Madam wish to
> examine another coat?
> > May I interest the Sir/Madam in an accompanying
> belt? etc. Have I
> > offended the Sir/Madam?
>
> Swedish, until some forty years ago, did that, but
> went
> one step further, using not only Sir/Madam, but the
> persons occupational title as a word of address.
> I for instance would have been adressed as
> Kandidaten
> (i.e. the academic Candidate degree9 for most of
> my life. In fact _min Herre/Herrn_ or _Frun_ was
> used
> only with people so lowly as to not have any
> occupational
> tiles, although servants would address their
> employers
> with these titles, and _Frun_ of course was the
> correct
> address for a housewife, so there were
> proportionally
> more women addressed _Frun_ than there were men
> adressed
> _Herrn_ -- once you knew their occupation that is.
>
> One interresting aspect of this is that when the
> system
> eventually was abolished people started using the
> familiar
> second person singular pronoun _du_ to everyone.
> There
> had been some use of the second person plural _ni_
> with singular reference on the French model, but
> this
> had been associated with people who didn't wish to
> draw attention to their 'lowly' occupation, yet be
> formal towards one another, and so this usage was
> frowned upon by practitioners of the occupational
> title addressing system. FWIW the use of singular
> _ni_ has bcome in vogue in later years among younger
> people who want to affect social distance or
> 'uppity'. I and many with me frown on it as being
> stuck-up rather than polite. I usually answer such
> address in the first person plural, and AFAIK none
> of these pompous brats has understood what I was
> doing. Of course they don't know about the
> _pluralis majestatis_ any more than they know about
> the real stylistic value of the "V-forms" in
> Swedish.
>
> This said I have a real hard time not to perceive
> the use of polite forms in other languages as
> pompous...
>
> --
>
> /BP 8^)>
> --
> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
>
> Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
>
> (Tacitus)
>
> I'm afraid the current situation in the Eastern
> Mediterranean forces me to reinstate this
> signature...
>
Messages in this topic (26)
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5g. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:29 am (PDT)
Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> FWIW honorific 1st person pronouns occur in natlangs
> -- usually as "deference forms", but are there 'aloofness
> forms' too, at least in some conlang?
Isn't this what Japanese _chin_ is? It is, IIUC, a 1st sg pronoun only used by
the Emperor.
Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> One interresting aspect of this is that when the system
> eventually was abolished people started using the familiar
> second person singular pronoun _du_ to everyone. There
> had been some use of the second person plural _ni_
> with singular reference on the French model, but this
> had been associated with people who didn't wish to
> draw attention to their 'lowly' occupation, yet be
> formal towards one another, and so this usage was
> frowned upon by practitioners of the occupational
> title addressing system. FWIW the use of singular
> _ni_ has bcome in vogue in later years among younger
> people who want to affect social distance or
> 'uppity'. I and many with me frown on it as being
> stuck-up rather than polite. I usually answer such
> address in the first person plural, and AFAIK none
> of these pompous brats has understood what I was
> doing. Of course they don't know about the
> _pluralis majestatis_ any more than they know about
> the real stylistic value of the "V-forms" in Swedish.
FYI, this pompous brat is fully aware of the _pluralis majestatis_.
Back to honorifics in conlangs, I've not got any yet, but I'm considering
putting some into Meghean. Meghean being Meghean, it'll have to be some rather
baroque system ...
Andreas
Messages in this topic (26)
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5h. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:32 am (PDT)
Quoting Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Imperatives are honorific or non-honorific. One uses the future form for
> polite discourse when issuing a command (or rather inviting someone to take
> a future course of action):
>
> You will take the butter and mix it with the sugar.
> Deygrin essy uen, send pomil hsakra ain essy vigla.
> Butter will-you take, and with-the sugar it will you mix
>
> The Sir/Madam will take the road to the left and go straight to the
> intersection.
> Or, with plural subjects, one can use the hortative, including oneself in
> the "command":
>
> Let us take the road to the left.
> Il naor hsinvvary euants.
> The road leftward let-us-travel.
>
>
> Non honorific commands are more direct, and require a suffix. Vera vektof!
> "Don't frown." Mingadol gombref. "Buy some meat."
This, as it happens, is the opposite of what Tairezazh does.
Andreas
Messages in this topic (26)
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5i. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:16 pm (PDT)
Hallo!
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:37:50 +0200, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Back to honorifics in conlangs, I've not got any yet, but I'm considering
> putting some into Meghean. Meghean being Meghean, it'll have to be some
> rather baroque system ...
Old Albic doesn't have a particularly intricate system of honorifics, only
a familiar/deferential distinction in 2nd person pronouns (familiar sg. _tha_,
du. _thu_, pl. _thi_; deferential sg. _la_, du. _lu_, pl. _li_), but not in
verbs. Perhaps things are that simple because the society is rather
egalitarian.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (26)
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5j. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:07 pm (PDT)
Quoting Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hallo!
>
> On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:37:50 +0200, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
> > Back to honorifics in conlangs, I've not got any yet, but I'm considering
> > putting some into Meghean. Meghean being Meghean, it'll have to be some
> > rather baroque system ...
>
> Old Albic doesn't have a particularly intricate system of honorifics, only
> a familiar/deferential distinction in 2nd person pronouns (familiar sg.
> _tha_,
> du. _thu_, pl. _thi_; deferential sg. _la_, du. _lu_, pl. _li_), but not in
> verbs. Perhaps things are that simple because the society is rather
> egalitarian.
Meghean honorifics would have to reside in pronouns, since verbs don't inflect
for person (or much of anything but aspect), unless I go all Javanese with
substitional vocabulary.
Part of why I'm thinking to introduce honorifics is that Meghean society is
decidedly *non*-egalitarian.
Andreas
Messages in this topic (26)
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6. Lisanek
Posted by: "wayne chevrier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:16 am (PDT)
I haven't posted much in a while, but I recently figured out more about my
first(but not only) language, Lisanek.
Nouns: article suffix, with case, number, gender, and definiteness.
Declensions: depending on final sound of noun.
abstractly: <e>=fem. sig. <i>=fp <o>=ms <u>=mp
<k>=definite <n>=indefinite <s>=indeterminate
C-VC namh-ek: the (female) shaman
V-CV zte-no: a bull
if the consonant/vowel is the same, they merge
nrus-e: (some) shark
dmi-k: the shrews
ergative:
C-aCV, V-hVC namhake, ztehon
if the consonant/vowel is the same, they don't merge
nruses, dmiki
Possession: construct state, no article on possessum(only for nominal
possession)
Phonology:
abdefghiklmnoprstuwyz
As IPA except <e>=/E/, <o>=/O/, <s>=/S/, <z>=/s/
clusters: F=fhsz L=lr T=kpt D=bdg G=wy N=mn
Initial:FT,FL,FT.FG,FN,LG,TF,TL,TG,TN,DL,DG,DN,NL,ND(homorganic only),NG
Final:FT,LF,LT,LD,LN,TF,DF,GF,GL,GT,GD,GN,NF,NT(homorganic),ND(homorganic)
no diphthongs
V2 word order(and yes I know that violates a universal with ergatives)
zero copula
ga i hketon: I am a man.
ga: 1sg.ABS
i:predicate marker(nonverb, can optionally cooccur with a verb for emphasis)
hket:human -on:masc.sing.indef.abs
ztesu i mi a
I have some bulls(Some bulls are to me)
zte:bull -su:masc.pl.indeterminate.abs
mi:1sg.erg
a:DAT
preposition noun.ABS, pronoun.ERG preposition
No adjectives: relative clause and stative verbs instead
ki: subordinate predicate marker(used like i is)
--Wayne Chevrier
Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: CA Bay Area (and nearby) conlang meetup next month
Posted by: "Arthaey Angosii" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:16 pm (PDT)
Emaelivpeith Sai Emrys 'sa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I'd like to have a meetup of localish people. I'm suggesting Saturday
> one month from now - i.e. August 12th in Berkeley, at a chinese place
> or teahouse. I could possibly host at my apt if it's a small # of
> people (beware my cooking though >:D).
>
> Suggestions for better time, location or venue welcome though.
That sounds like it could be fun! I'm busy from 3:30 onward that day,
but before then I'll actually be in Oakland anyway. How does a
noon-time lunch sound?
I'm living in Sunnyvale for the summer, and could give 2 people a ride
there (but not back, at least not until after midnight).
--
AA
http://conlang.arthaey.com
Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: CA Bay Area (and nearby) conlang meetup next month
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:32 pm (PDT)
Arthaey, didn't I copy you on the separate email to the meetup group?
Current decision is 2pm August 12th at Vik's Chaat Corner:
http://www.vikdistributors.com/chaat/chaatMenu.html
Hopefully that works for you. At present we don't have anyone needing
a ride that I know of, since that's been resolved.
See you there.
- Sai
On 7/26/06, Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Emaelivpeith Sai Emrys 'sa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > I'd like to have a meetup of localish people. I'm suggesting Saturday
> > one month from now - i.e. August 12th in Berkeley, at a chinese place
> > or teahouse. I could possibly host at my apt if it's a small # of
> > people (beware my cooking though >:D).
> >
> > Suggestions for better time, location or venue welcome though.
>
> That sounds like it could be fun! I'm busy from 3:30 onward that day,
> but before then I'll actually be in Oakland anyway. How does a
> noon-time lunch sound?
>
> I'm living in Sunnyvale for the summer, and could give 2 people a ride
> there (but not back, at least not until after midnight).
>
>
> --
> AA
> http://conlang.arthaey.com
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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8. Re: Website: Old Sanhr
Posted by: "Edgard Bikelis" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:51 pm (PDT)
Hi!
I liked it a lot. "Classical pretensions" are for me always welcome. Your
verbal system is truly baroque, even more than mine ; ), and that is good to
see... at work, too! The only problem I see, for us both, is that it is not
that easy to learn, to others and even to ourselves. We have a very strong
need to learn our own language, but... here I confess, I am afraid our
language is too hard for 'common people' to learn, even when they want to.
Of course we need first to finish the grammar and then start to dig a good
didatic way of teaching, but I have this old habit of thinking about
everything at once... poor brain : ).
Anyway, I liked it a lot. Add flesh and it will speak, surely!
Edgard.
On 7/20/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello one and all!
>
> The conlang that I've been working on considerably as of late is on der
> interweb at <a
> href="www.soapboxindustries.com">www.soapboxindustries.com</a>.
>
> I'm quite slow at uploading from brain to paper to binary, but so far I've
> got phonology, pronouns & postpositions, basic verb morphology, and a
> brief overview of the "three-class" system that works on verbal roots
> (accounting for the majority of roots in the language, as well as the only
> productive ones for derivation).
>
> I'm currently focusing on the issue of arguments, so I'll post for help on
> that in the near future.
>
> Thanks ahead of time for all criticism and witticism. It's definitely good
> to be a part of a community, rather than a pariah conlanging out in a
> cabin in the mountains.
>
Messages in this topic (5)
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9. Re: TECH: Switching to a better e-mail program
Posted by: "Peter Ara Guekguezian" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:02 pm (PDT)
Tristan Alexander McLeay wrote:
> On 18/07/06, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:04:34 -0400, Peter Ara Guekguezian
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > The e-mail address I'm using now is definitely not optimal for a list.
>> > Thus, I will find a new address specifically for this list.
>> >
>> > Two Questions:
>> >
>> > 1) What is a good (& free) e-mail service to use for the list?
>> (i.e., one
>> > that automatically sorts different threads)
>>
>> http://www.gmail.com/ seems to work well enough,
>
> To be contrary: Gmail has really bad thread sorting. It looks only at
> the subject header. So if two messages have the same subject header
> and are near enough in time, they get classed as the same thread. But
> often, a message comes a month after the rest of the thread, and it
> gets broken (making finding the original thread harder) or some
> terribly minor change is made to the thread header (such as the
> addition of "OT:", or an extra space), and the threading gets broken,
> or two threads are merged into one because they share the same subject
> and came near enough in time. Obviously this means there's only a
> single (flat) level of threading: replies to replies and subthreads
> are not indicated.
>
> So seriously, if you care at all about threading *don't* use the GMail
> client.
>
> (If you use more than one email address, GMail's client also has
> issues with picking the right one. Basically, it doesn't try to. The
> combination of these two problems, and a few other lesser ones, is
> presently making me poke around at Evolution and Thunderbird to see
> why I stopped using them.)
I just switched to T-bird. I had some trouble getting the outgoing mail
to work, but (with some help) finally managed to get it working.
> ...
>
>> > 2) Is there any easy way to switch addresses, besides the obvious
>> one of
>> > cancelling CONLANG-LIST at this address and subscribing at the new
>> one?
>> > Or, can I just tell the 'listserv' the new address I wish to use
>> for this
>> > list?
>>
>> I suspect that is the easiest way.
>
> Indeeed, tmk, it's the only way.
>
> --
> Tristan.
>
Hi!
Peter Ara Guekguezian writes:
> >...
> > 2) Is there any easy way to switch addresses, besides the obvious one of
> > cancelling CONLANG-LIST at this address and subscribing at the new one?
> > Or, can I just tell the 'listserv' the new address I wish to use for
> this
> > list?
> You do not need to do the unsubscribe/resubscribe cycle.
> You can directly tell listserv the new address by sending a mail
> > to [EMAIL PROTECTED] from you *old* address,
containing > the following mail *body*:
> change conlang [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> **Henrik
I did so, and it worked (I sent the refcard command to listserv, and it
gave the same instructions. Foolish me!)
Thanks to all!
Messages in this topic (5)
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