There are 11 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: FW: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
1b. Re: FW: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
From: Sally Caves
1c. Re: FW: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
2. To join the IPA?
From: Paul Bennett
3. Re: Website: Old Sanhr
From: Peter Ara Guekguezian
4. German conlangcon in August?
From: Thomas Wier
5a. Re: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
From: Roger Mills
5b. Re: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
From: Eugene Oh
6a. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Jonathan Knibb
6b. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: And Rosta
7. Re: Eine beim haspeln
From: Christian Köttl
Messages
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1a. Re: FW: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:21 pm (PDT)
On 7/28/06, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> TRANSLATION CHALLENGE: FOUCAULT'S PENDULUM
Hmm. OK.
http://www.terjemar.net/eco.php
Of the 98 unique Kelen words, 26 were new. Actually, 3 were new uses
of existing words, and the other 23 came from 21 new baseforms. (All
in all, I made 22 new baseforms for this, one was made in order to
derive another from it.)
The new baseforms:
aÅÅÄt 'disruption, entanglement' from the same root that gives thief
and looking a lot like the word for strike.
alliþ 'fourfold, quaternity' from the old root for 4
annariw 'numberless', derived from existing word 'number'
arraniss 'pi' from the old root for 3, plus plus, plus an old diminutive.
arriþ 'trinity' from the old root for 3
ejex 'resistance, opposition'
elur 'suspension in air' (Already had a word for suspension in water.)
ennapren '(mathematical) rationality'. Getting this from sanity was a
stretch, but needed for the congruence in English of mathematical
rational and mentally rational. So, irrational numbers are actually
insane numbers.
eÅÅÅt 'perfection'
eλÅn 'plane' from root for expanse
enniþ 'duality' from 2
errenae 'majesty' from new base err 'dignity'
ilñe 'periodicity' from roots for time and same
λÅnom 'dimension' from roots for width and length
napr 'sanity'
ñill 'becoming, manifestation'
rusiss 'oscillation, back & forth-ness' from root for return, cycle
rusissik 'pendulum'
tamol 'root' from root for 'birth'
wuxxet 'magnet' from roots for pull and iron
xarraonik 'wire' from roots for metal and thread
Fun!
-S
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.terjemar.net
Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: FW: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
Posted by: "Sally Caves" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:47 pm (PDT)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sylvia Sotomayor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> ennapren '(mathematical) rationality'. Getting this from sanity was a
> stretch, but needed for the congruence in English of mathematical
> rational and mentally rational. So, irrational numbers are actually
> insane numbers.
I had trouble with this, too; I basically think that Teonaht would have
different terminology for mathematical concepts: I have a word for
"rational" (racodel), but it means "full of reason, full of logic." The
opposite, "full of unreason" doesn't really describe pi. Pi is reasonable
on its own terms, just one's we can't fathom. Irrational numbers:
unfathomable numbers? bottomless numbers?
> tamol 'root' from root for 'birth'
Interesting! Tamol means "child" in Teonaht.
Sally
Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: FW: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:02 pm (PDT)
On 7/29/06, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sylvia Sotomayor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > ennapren '(mathematical) rationality'. Getting this from sanity was a
> > stretch, but needed for the congruence in English of mathematical
> > rational and mentally rational. So, irrational numbers are actually
> > insane numbers.
>
> I had trouble with this, too; I basically think that Teonaht would have
> different terminology for mathematical concepts: I have a word for
> "rational" (racodel), but it means "full of reason, full of logic." The
> opposite, "full of unreason" doesn't really describe pi. Pi is reasonable
> on its own terms, just one's we can't fathom. Irrational numbers:
> unfathomable numbers? bottomless numbers?
>
Yes. I haven't made a word yet for 'ratio' but 'rational [number]' is
probably related to that instead.
> > tamol 'root' from root for 'birth'
>
> Interesting! Tamol means "child" in Teonaht.
>
The root mol yields bases:
emol 'infant'
emolanen '(birth)-mother'
mol 'womb'
molon 'pregnant woman'
ramol 'embryo'
and now tamol
The baseword for 'child' is is, which is related to an old
unproductive diminutive -isse, which is part of the word for 'pi'.
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.terjemar.net
Messages in this topic (5)
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2. To join the IPA?
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:23 pm (PDT)
Is anyone here a member of the IPA?
Is it worth it?
As a gift, I received the _Handbook of the IPA_ (as well as Geoff Pullum's
_Phonetic Symbol Guide_), and there's an appendix in the handbook with
information on joining.
$25 a year seems like a steal, but I don't want to jump in with both feet
unless I'll enjoy it and/or learn. Bonus points if I manage to actually
contribute in any way.
Paul
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Messages in this topic (1)
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3. Re: Website: Old Sanhr
Posted by: "Peter Ara Guekguezian" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:39 pm (PDT)
Thanks for everyone who took the time to look at Old Sanhr. ¡Thanks
especially for everyone who bothered to give their input!
Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev:
>> Hello one and all!
>>
>> The conlang that I've been working on considerably as of late is on der
>> interweb at <a
>> href="www.soapboxindustries.com">www.soapboxindustries.com</a>.
>
> I especially like the rather bold letter assignments.
Why thanks. I'm not a huge fan of digraphs myself. I *do* like
diacritics, but they can be a hassle...
> You could even get rid of those digraphs with the following
> assignments:
>
> /B/ b
> /J/ ñ
> /j/ j
> /j\/ h
> /L/ y
> /l_d/ d
> /R\/ v
> /r_j/ x
> /L\/ l
For some reason, I'm not too crazy about the monographs for the trills
(I guess only <r> can suggest a trill segment to me). But, <b> for /B/
is good, especially as it frees up <v>, which can symbolize a lot more
things. <ñ> can complicate things (it suggests both /J/ & /N\/); plus,
if I add it, then <ç> and <ð> and the rest come knocking. I know I can't
complain overly about using ASCII codes, since I use <ê ô> as well as
acutes on any other vowel.
> Or if you wan't to be just a tad more user-friendly
> (or you dislike _ñ_! :-), the above but:
>
> /B/ v
> /J/ ny/yn
> /L/ ly/yl
> /r_j/ ry/yr
> /R\/ x
>
> NB in this assignment _y_ would be used only to mark
> palatalization. In my own conlang Sohlob [sQ'KQb_0]
> I use _tj, dj, sj_ as ASCII-friendly alternatives to
> _c, j, ç_ (I guess you can guess for what kind of
> sounds! :-), while somewhat out of line I use _ny_
> for /J/, because _nj_ would else be too ambiguous
> between the ASCII and Latin-1 systems -- and I kept
> reading _ñ_ as [N] due to Tolkien's usage!
>
> Admittedly I am not wild about digraphs at all, except _j/y_
> to mark palatalization, _w/v_ to mark labialization or
> velarization and _h_ to mark aspiration or voicelessness.
> In particular I dislike the random +h to mark just about any
> modificayion -- and I'm well aware that is not what you are
> doing; I guess I just connect hr/rh and hl/lh too strong
> with [r_0] and [K]. You become that way when you are an
> Islando- and Sindaphile!
Your "complaints" register well. Let me try this schema for the consonants:
/p/ <p>
/t_d/ <t>
/c/ <c>
/q/ <k>
/m/ <m>
/n_d/ <n>
/J/ <j> (I like this; I'm not getting rid of it :) )
/N\/ <g>
/B/ <b>
/z_d/ <d>
/j\/ <q>
/R/ <v>
/l_d/ <l>
/L/ <y>
/Y\/ <w>
/r/ <r>
/r_j/ <z>
/R\/ <x>
/j/ <h>
/k_>/ <?>
(I admit, that's a stretch; I could just change /B/ from <v> to <b> and
use <v> as the uvular diacritic for /Y\/ & /R\/. But hey, ¿why not
confuse people?)
>
>> I'm quite slow at uploading from brain to paper to binary,
>
> Who isn't -- well I guess some aren't, but I'm definitely
> *very* slow with the paper to binary phase, perhaps due to
> problems with deciphering the results of the brain to paper
> phase, but more due to the fact that formatting tends to
> take a lot more time than content in binarization...
>
>>
>> Thanks ahead of time for all criticism and witticism. It's definitely
>> good
>> to be a part of a community, rather than a pariah conlanging out in a
>> cabin in the mountains.
>
> Trust me, being a pariah conlanger in a villa by the sea
> wasn't that great either: "What's he doing?" -- "He's making
> letters again!" I wasn't totally isolated, but I was twelve
> and took no interst whatsoever in sports...
> Luckily polyglottism as such was considered normal in my
> family, so linguistic interests _per se_ weren't frown'd at.
>
I'm kinda lucky to have some "normal" interests, e.g., sports, music,
video games. But, I've always presented myself as a bit eccentric...
Messages in this topic (6)
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4. German conlangcon in August?
Posted by: "Thomas Wier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:34 pm (PDT)
Hi Conlangers,
I've been lurking for a while now, mostly gradschool pressures.
Anyways, I'll be in Germany later in August, 27 aug - 5 sept,
and will when not mucking about in the Max Planck in Leipzig,
will have some time to meet with other people. Any chance of
a conlangcon in the Leipzig area? I know there are a goodly
number of Germans on the list, so it might be nice to meetup.
contact me at my personal email address, since I'll be very
busy with lots of stuff and may not have time to follow the
list's responses.
==========================================================================
Thomas Wier "To de oligokhronion koinon pasin : alla su panta,
Dept. of Linguistics ho:s aio:nia esomena, pheugeis kai dio:keis. Mikron
University of Chicago kai katamuseis : ton de exenenkonta se e:de: allos
1010 E. 59th Street thre:ne:sei." -- Marcus Aurelius
Chicago, IL 60637
Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:56 pm (PDT)
We have had second thoughts about a couple phrasings:
"twoness" should be añandoro, and "threeness" should be añatila; we forgot
our own rules :-((
The phrase "the secret square of the root" could better be: voraka/ni purik
ri ñutu(ni)" lit., 'square/the hidden/secret in square.root(the)' which much
better captures the progression "one...two...three...square...circle" which
I found particularly elegant, and it bothered me that I fudged it. I avoided
looking at too many other translations prior to working on mine; but I see
that some of them did pick up on this.
> http://cinduworld.tripod.com/foucault.pdf
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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5b. Re: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:42 am (PDT)
Here's a version of it in Arithide (an SOV language):
Sit a Findor eg tygna hyrin hç.
Sit meos a koerarin attalas i ikânaba massim fihar ibat pleido,
valehyrnhisyns hôragie ibat ultifûrde taduri.
Keii - sina sinon tumen them a sit elemim sikopos in namei o kaumebali
- i tadurhyrnos a fiharin massyns torininos ibat, sinam gaetandonçs i
dussilseresina laetorim silsos eg epte pan bale rorerin dolsteima nam
graessteima eg sarafe holos ita Kirkylos. Hokô hokei byldei meos a
tyra spar ou oldastim steimçs nepyn in verkorim telskopos ibat
manereste: pleidegm in veriros, sallen versteimçs in verdesos,
Kirkylos in heveilyne daktos, ninos in ourim nostdaedim dithael, nam
ke ror in dosrelhola ryrngvenos.
Sines keii, i tandorin faut ibat konere derfrasae etanos a meyns akis
um kîti rostanos i kromos eg makraro, tirade honos eg entigare. Ok
etanos a, Findor in dîmotos eg avkonobagno, sempç kanevtos eg ereke:
verkansas um, fuisestos nam episulos ibat oitagev stantinie
konderebalev fihar ibat pleide tumen an ou oldos an tadurai van.
Vocabulary
----------------
isochronal - valehyrnhisyns: vale- (equal) + hyrin (time) + his (line)
+ -yns (abstractive nominaliser, genitive case)
period - tadurhyrnos: tadurei (to sway) + hyrin + -os (abstractive
nominaliser nominative case)
square root - torininos: tori- (square, connective case), ninos
(source; from <nin>, "root")
circumference - dolsteima: dol (around) + steima (mesurement)
diameter - graessteima: graet (across) + steima
pi - Kirkylos: Kirki (mathematician's name) + holos (number)
singularity - veriros: ver- (intensive pref.) + ir (1) + -os
duality - verdesos: des (2)
triadic - heveilyne: hevei (3, dative case) + lynei (to link, to be related)
quadratic - nostdaedim: nost (4) + daedos (side) + -im (adjectival suffix)
unnumbered - dosrelhola: dos- (un-) + relei (to replace) + holos
as with many other conlangs, magnet - derfrasa: derei (to pull) + frasa (iron)
cylinder - rostanos: ror (circle) + tan (tube) + sandhi (r + t > st)
Messages in this topic (9)
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6a. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Jonathan Knibb" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:32 am (PDT)
T4 has a rather complicated system of pronouns - I must have been in an odd
mood that day.
Unfortunately I don't have my notes with me at the moment, but I can give
the basics from
memory. There are three relevant variables, which I refer to as
"familiarity" (F), "authority" (A) and
"servility" (S).
Familiarity is the simplest, and takes only two values. One is used
exclusively for second person, while
the other generally means first person, except that in relationships of
great intimacy (typically
spouses or close relatives) the first-person form may be used for second
person as well (A and S are
sufficient to disambiguate). A separate system is used for third person.
Authority and servility each take three values, low, default and high. The
prototypical relationship in
which authority is asymmetrical is parent-child, so that the parent would
call the child by a low-A
(first-person, remember) pronoun and the child would use a high-A pronoun
for the parent. Referring
to themselves when talking to each other, the child would use low A and the
parent high A, in
effect "agreeing" with each other on the values of A in the relationship.
Other relationships with
asymmetrical A include teacher-pupil, doctor-patient, etc. If the
relationship is symmetrical with
respect to A, both speakers simply use default A for themselves and each
other.
The prototype for asymmetrical S is the master-servant relationship. This is
where it gets really
complicated. :) In principle, there could be a full-servility situation
parallel to the full-authority situation
I described, where both speakers (X and Y) use high-S pronouns for X and
low-S pronouns for Y.
However, this is very unusual. For example, the default situation is *not*
simply default S all round -
you use default S for the other person but low S for yourself, as if saying
"I acknowledge that you're
not trying to dominate me but I am at your service nonetheless." If the
other person agrees that
the situation is one of symmetrical S, he will of course refer to you with
default S and to himself with
low S.
On the other hand, if the relationship is genuinely asymmetrical with
respect to servility, humble
speaker X will use low S for himself and high S for his less humble
interlocutor Y. Y now has a tricky
choice to make. He may wish to agree with X that the situation is
asymmetrical, in which case he will
use low S for X but only default S for himself (as in the default situation,
he has to stay one step
below X's opinion of him to maintain basic politeness). Or he may wish to
give X the idea that he
sees the situation differently, in which case he may either adopt a
completely default posture (low S
for self, default S for other), or a compromise (default S for both).
The six possible F and A combinations have six different CV-shaped words to
describe them. The
value of S is expressed as a suffix to the F-A word. These suffixes may also
be used with words
referring to third persons, if the speaker wishes to express honour or the
contrary, or if the speaker
wants to make it clear that the referent of the word is animate but the word
and context are
ambiguous in this respect (in which case default or high S may be used,
depending on the speaker's
relationship to the third person).
Carsten wrote:
>NB (this is *VERY* OT, though): Y'all are aware that the
>list turns 15 years old this Saturday? It was started on my
>brother's birthday coincidentally, which is July 29, 1991,
29th July is also my brother's birthday. He's fourteen years older than the
list, though. :))
Jonathan.
_________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (38)
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6b. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "And Rosta" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:15 am (PDT)
Jonathan Knibb, On 30/07/2006 10:30:
> T4 has a rather complicated system of pronouns - I must have been in
> an odd mood that day. There are three relevant variables, which I
> refer to as "familiarity" (F), "authority" (A) and "servility" (S).
>
> Familiarity is the simplest, and takes only two values. One is used
> exclusively for second person, while the other generally means first
> person, except that in relationships of great intimacy (typically
> spouses or close relatives) the first-person form may be used for
> second person as well (A and S are sufficient to disambiguate).
How do A and S disambiguate? One would expect them to be symmetrical &
default/neutral in intimate relationships...
> Authority and servility each take three values, low, default and
> high. The prototypical relationship in which authority is
> asymmetrical is parent-child, so that the parent would call the child
> by a low-A (first-person, remember) pronoun and the child would use a
> high-A pronoun for the parent. Referring to themselves when talking
> to each other, the child would use low A and the parent high A, in
> effect "agreeing" with each other on the values of A in the
> relationship. Other relationships with asymmetrical A include
> teacher-pupil, doctor-patient, etc. If the relationship is
> symmetrical with respect to A, both speakers simply use default A for
> themselves and each other.
What about High1--High2, Low1--Low2, High1--Default2, D1--H2, L1--D2,
D1--L2?
> The prototype for asymmetrical S is the master-servant relationship.
> This is where it gets really complicated. :) In principle, there
> could be a full-servility situation parallel to the full-authority
> situation I described, where both speakers (X and Y) use high-S
> pronouns for X and low-S pronouns for Y. However, this is very
> unusual. For example, the default situation is *not* simply default S
> all round - you use default S for the other person but low S for
> yourself, as if saying "I acknowledge that you're not trying to
> dominate me but I am at your service nonetheless." If the other
> person agrees that the situation is one of symmetrical S, he will of
> course refer to you with default S and to himself with low S.
>
> On the other hand, if the relationship is genuinely asymmetrical with
> respect to servility, humble speaker X will use low S for himself
> and high S for his less humble interlocutor Y. Y now has a tricky
> choice to make. He may wish to agree with X that the situation is
> asymmetrical, in which case he will use low S for X but only default
> S for himself (as in the default situation, he has to stay one step
> below X's opinion of him to maintain basic politeness). Or he may
> wish to give X the idea that he sees the situation differently, in
> which case he may either adopt a completely default posture (low S
> for self, default S for other), or a compromise (default S for both).
So High S 1st person would always be imperious/haughty? What would
the difference between H1--L2 and H1--D2 be?
Do incongruous combinations of F, A and S exist? If so, are they left
unused due to their incongruity and lack of applicability to
circumstances in normal life? Or are they exapted into some more utile
function?
There are aspects of the T4 system that remind me variously of Livagian and of
a BDSM conlang that Mark Shoulson once advertised on Conlang. I don't remember
any details of the BDSM conlang (-- it must have been yonks ago, because Mark
Shoulson hasn't been around on Conlang for yonks), but I do remember that it
tried to systematize the very complex parameters of the multifarious kinds of
power exchange involved in BDSM (-- always, I find, fascinating to think about,
even if not to practise).
As for Livagian, instead of personal pronouns it has 3 place predicates, the
arguments being (i) the speaker, (ii) the addressee, and (iii) the set
containing speaker and addressee. The predicates' stems form paradigms that can
express such things as degrees of openness/familiarity, of authority &
servility, and so forth. (I can't cite sample examples, because the whereabouts
of my paper files containing them have become lost to memory.) While the
paradigms themselves would be of interest to the present discussion for what
they encode, the main point I am making here is that (a) deictic meanings
(which would include 1st/2nd person honorifics) come from the one open
wordclass, so are themselves potentially unlimited in quantity, and (b) the
deictic predicates lend themselves to expressing kinds of relationship between
speaker and addressee.
--And.
Messages in this topic (38)
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7. Re: Eine beim haspeln
Posted by: "Christian Köttl" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:29 am (PDT)
Now a quick follow-up:
In "Meyers Konversationslexikon" (4. Auflage,
1885-1892) there is short passage explaining
"Fitze" in the article about "Garn" (yarn):
"Die gesponnenen Garne werden zum Zweck der
Numerierung auf einen Haspel von bestimmtem
Umfang aufgewickelt (gehaspelt), und zwar wird
stets eine bestimmte Länge mit einemmal auf den
Haspel gebracht und als Strähne oder Strang
abgenommen. Die Strähne teilt man durch
Unterbinden mit einem quer durchflochtenen Faden
in Gebinde (Bind, Unterband, Wiel, Wiedel oder
Fitze). Jede solche Fitze besteht aus einer
festgesetzten Zahl Fäden, d. h. Haspelumgängen.
Der Faden ist so lang wie der Umfang des Haspels,
und wenn man diesen mit der Anzahl der Fäden in
der Fitze und mit der Zahl der Fitzen in der
Strähne multipliziert, so erhält man die
Gesamtfadenlänge einer Strähne."
Now, I don't have it at home, but the nice folks
at the University of Ulm have scanned it.
You can find it here:
http://susi.e-technik.uni-ulm.de:8080/Meyers2/index/index.html
and the article about "Garn" (yarn) here:
http://susi.e-technik.uni-ulm.de:8080/Meyers2/seite/werk/meyers/band/6/seite/0911/meyers_b6_s0911.html
Messages in this topic (6)
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