There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Delexicalization of left & right
From: John Vertical
2a. Re: OT: English -uice
From: Philip Newton
2b. Re: OT: English -uice
From: Mark J. Reed
3. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Jonathan Knibb
4a. Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread
From: Arnt Richard Johansen
4b. Re: Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread
From: Sai Emrys
5. Re: Toki Pona Script
From: Sai Emrys
6a. TECH: Web Interface Problems
From: Jeffrey Jones
6b. Re: TECH: Web Interface Problems
From: Henrik Theiling
6c. Re: TECH: Web Interface Problems
From: Jeffrey Jones
Messages
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1. Re: Delexicalization of left & right
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 4:59 am (PDT)
Ash Wells wrote:
>
>Interesting concept!
> What about 'thing/one' - when you're describing a non-specific item, or
>differentiating 2 objects out of
>a pair.
> e.g.
> 'Which one would you like?' 'The one on the left'.
I was thinking deriving this meaning from the hand names, i.e. "The one on
the left hand side".
Roger Mills wrote:
>
>Armt Richard Johansen wrote:
> > First, a question: how about cardinal directions? (North, south, east,
> > west.) Surely, these concepts must be important to hunter-gatherer
> > societies.
>
>Some languages use derivs. of "toward the mountains/toward the sea",
>up/down etc. but of course that depends on the local geography and one's
>orientation in it...
Yes, naturally there will be absolute directions too. Since the climatic
setting in question is subtropical / tropical, terms referring to local
geography might be more important than the cardinal directions. (Those
aren't anyway always as stable as you IE people might think; none of the 8
cardinal direction terms in Finnish date older than Proto-Fennic - ie. 2-3K
years of age.)
> > could of course go with left/right version of every body part that comes
> > in pairs, but it gets kinda implausible for the language to have that
>kind
> > of fine-grainedness, yet still have no words for left and right.
>
>I think so too.
Which is exactly why I settled for so few root-pairs. The four eye / hand
names will definitely be fully independant words; either or both of the foot
names I suppose could be nigh-ancient derivations from the hand names...
which will probably in turn come from "strong" and "weak" or sumthing
similar.
> > Other suggestions:
> >
> > - port/starboard
> > - clockwise/counterclockwise
> > - right-handed/left-handed helicity
>
>IIRC from what John V. said about his people, they may not have that level
>of technological thought....?
Helicity is definitly too advanced a concept. Clockwise/counterclockwise
will be trivial to derive from the verbs "to turn left / counterclockwise" &
"to turn right / clockwise"; and the riverbank names & the absolute
directions upstream/downstream will probably be used instead of
port/starboard, as the culture won't be seafaring (much, at least)
> > Also, the lexical items for Right Eye and Left Eye might over time
>undergo
> > semantic drift, so that they end up actually meaning right and left.
>This
> > would especially be the case if they can be combined with the words for
> > specific body parts that come in left-right pairs.
Wouldn't the fact that there's two or three such combining root-pairs hinder
development of full abstraction? At least as long as the culture stays on
the same development level (small indigenous SE-Asian or sub-Saharan African
people could be a good comparision)
Also, as far as semantic drift goes, I'm thinking of taking the eye names
originally from mythology... maybe relating to stellar bodies. Ooh, and new
idea - ritual eyepatches during eclipses! /,-)
>Whether the cultural concept _right: good vs. left: bad, taboo_ is really
>ancient is an interesting question.
Well, with handedness, right=strong, left=weak is rather trivial; the more
symbolic meaning is not exactly lightyears apart, altho I wouldn't expect
every culture to have developed / adopted it.
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. Re: OT: English -uice
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 5:19 am (PDT)
On 7/31/06, Steven Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Mark Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > "Juice" is second-nature, but "sluice" still throws
> > me. Makes me want to say /sluwIs/ or something.
>
> Hold on, you mean it's _not_ pronounced [sluwIs]?
> How's it really pronounced, then? [slu:s]?
>
> ...And I've been saying *that* for how many years
> (well over a decade, since I first encountered the
> word in print)?
Same here -- you're not alone.
In fact, I don't think I've ever heard that word spoken, so I only had
my guessed spelling pronunciation to go on.
But according to http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sluice, it
does appear to be an exact rhyme for "juice" (and "abstruse", "loose",
etc.). Who knew.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: OT: English -uice
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 6:06 am (PDT)
I find it very interesting that we all made the same incorrect
assumption about the pronunciation of "sluice". I wonder what it is
that prevents the eye-rhyme with "juice" from guiding the
pronunciation? It was precisely this phenomenon which triggered my
message. For the umpteen hundred and umpteenth time I was driving
near Bull Sluice Lake, saw it go by on my GPS map display and thought,
for about the umpteen hundred and umpteenth time, that it was a funny
name that was very close to being obscene. But this time, for no
readily apparent reason - maybe I'd been thinking about etymological
spelling or something - I realized that I'd never heard the word
pronounced and became unsure that it was at all close to the
obscenity. In fact, I began to suspect before I ever looked it up
that it might be pronounced to rhyme with "juice". Hence my question.
Someone pointed out "suit"=/sut/ as another example of <ui> = /u/, and
contrasted it with "suite"=/swit/. That brings up an interesting
YAEPT point (sorry): when I was growing up in Middle Georgia, there
was a three-way opposition among /sut/ spelled "suit", an item of
clothing; "suite" pronounced /swit/, a set of connected rooms; and
"suite" pronounced /sut/, a configuration of furniture (e.g. a
"bedroom suite"). Somewhere along the way that last word began to be
pronounced /swit/ also - presumably because it was always so in other
parts of the country and the regional speech was moving toward
conformity.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (5)
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3. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Jonathan Knibb" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 6:06 am (PDT)
I wrote:
JK> Familiarity is the simplest, and takes only two values. One is used
JK> exclusively for second person, while the other generally means first
JK> person, except that in relationships of great intimacy (typically
JK> spouses or close relatives) the first-person form may be used for
JK> second person as well (A and S are sufficient to disambiguate).
and And Rosta wrote:
AR> How do A and S disambiguate? One would expect them to be symmetrical &
AR> default/neutral in intimate relationships...
Often they are - but not in a parent-child relationship, where both speakers
would use A-high for the parent and A-low for the child. Also, any intimate
relationship is likely to adopt the default situation with respect to S,
where each speaker refers to himself with S-low and the other with
S-neutral, so this disambiguates in any case.
JK> Authority and servility each take three values, low, default and
JK> high. [...]
AR> What about High1--High2, Low1--Low2, High1--Default2, D1--H2, L1--D2,
AR> D1--L2?
Certainly, many different combinations are possible. You have to see it on
two levels though. The two speakers may adopt the same view of their
relationship, or may disagree to a greater or lesser extent. Each speaker's
attitude will motivate their choice of pronouns. There are several
conventionalised patterns for A and for S (some of which are described in
the last post), and most of the time a speaker will choose one of them,
although they may form new ones on the fly if necessary.
AR> So High S 1st person would always be imperious/haughty? What would
AR> the difference between H1--L2 and H1--D2 be?
It would be such an extreme display of high social status to refer to
yourself with high S that it's difficult to imagine that person referring to
anyone else by anything but the lowest possible S (it's like using an
honorific intended for 2nd person with your own name or 1st-person pronoun).
I suppose it might occur if a monarch who always used high-S first person
met a monarch of another country - they might not feel able to give up
high-S 1st person (demeaning themselves in the eyes of their people) but
would feel obliged to use at least default-S (maybe even high-S) for the
visiting dignitary.
AR> Do incongruous combinations of F, A and S exist? If so, are they left
AR> unused due to their incongruity and lack of applicability to
AR> circumstances in normal life? Or are they exapted into some more utile
AR> function?
Fascinating question. I haven't explored that in detail. I'm inclined to
think that even the most unlikely combinations would not be exapted, just
very rarely used.
Thanks for your interest!
Jonathan.
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Messages in this topic (40)
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4a. Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread
Posted by: "Arnt Richard Johansen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 6:51 am (PDT)
I have drafted the following description of the conlang flag for possible
inclusion on the Flags of the World web site (fotw.net). Please let me
know if there are any errors, omissions, or inaccuracies. I plan on
posting it on Friday if there are no objections.
---
The conlang flag represents both the Conlang mailing list, and language
inventors and constructed language aficionados worldwide. It was flown at the
1st Language Construction Conference in Berkeley, Californa in 2006.
The general idea of the conlang flag was decided as a result of a poll of the
subscribers of the Conlang mailing list in 2004. It has incorporated many
subsequent suggestions by list members, and the final version of the flag was
drawn by Christian Thalmann.
Symbolism
The flag depicts a silhouette of a ziggurat in front of a rising sun. The
ziggurat is a reference to the biblical story of the Tower of Babel,
representing language and linguistic diversity. The terraced structure of the
ziggurat is also an iconic representation of the way a typical artistic
language is created piece by piece, and is never quite completed.
The rising sun represents the rise in notoriety and recognition of language
construction as an art form.
An earlier proposal for the design had a red sky. This was later changed to
purple, to avoid the association with anarchism that the red-black combination
would have. In addition, purple is seen to symbolise creativity.
Suggested Pantone colours
The following Pantone values were used for the flags flown at the 1st LCC:
black: Pantone Black
yellow: PMS 123
purple: PMS 527
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
I know, I know. I could write a whole book about procrastination, but
who has the time? -- Mark Shoulson
Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 1:45 pm (PDT)
Try poking Sally Caves for pics. I know she took some, but I still
haven't seen 'em. :-P
I'd suggest expanding the authorship paragraph to include the major
contributors, and include versions of the flag leading up to the final
one. Also, that the copyright to it has been released into public
domain for any appropriate use.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (2)
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5. Re: Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 1:51 pm (PDT)
> However, for handwritten use, many of the symbols are too complex to write
> quickly and too rectilinear to readily approximate cursively. Ideally, I
> think, a practical script for any language will enable quick and fluid
> reading and writing. And it doesn't hurt if it looks beautiful, too, but
> that's a bit harder to achieve.
Perhaps have a separate variant of the script for handwriting?
I at least see no need to impose handwriting limitations on
computer-use script, or vice versa.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (13)
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6a. TECH: Web Interface Problems
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 3:51 pm (PDT)
Is anyone else having problems with the listserv web interface, where it
doesn't list the most recent archives?
The latest I get is week 4 of July. I know week 5 exists because I searched
for a topic that was carried over to that week and the search results
showed the entry.
Jeff
Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: TECH: Web Interface Problems
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 4:26 pm (PDT)
Hi!
Jeffrey Jones writes:
> Is anyone else having problems with the listserv web interface, where it
> doesn't list the most recent archives?
>
> The latest I get is week 4 of July. I know week 5 exists because I searched
> for a topic that was carried over to that week and the search results
> showed the entry.
I also get 'July 2006, week 5' and 'August 2006, week 1', both in the overview,
clickable, and browsable.
Strange!
Maybe a proxy problem? Maybe someone's caching the page for too long?
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: TECH: Web Interface Problems
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 4:34 pm (PDT)
On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 01:16:43 +0200, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hi!
>
>Jeffrey Jones writes:
>> Is anyone else having problems with the listserv web interface, where it
>> doesn't list the most recent archives?
>>
>> The latest I get is week 4 of July. I know week 5 exists because I
>> searched for a topic that was carried over to that week and the search
>> results showed the entry.
>
> I also get 'July 2006, week 5' and 'August 2006, week 1', both in the
> overview, clickable, and browsable.
>
>Strange!
>
>Maybe a proxy problem? Maybe someone's caching the page for too long?
>
>**Henrik
I don't know. I've had the problem on more than one computer. I stumbled on
a way to get in though. Type archives/ _twice_ in the URL and I get a
slightly different list of lists: CONLANG has a different # subscribers for
example. This takes me to the latest archives page.
Jeff
Messages in this topic (3)
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