There are 19 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Dirk Elzinga
1b. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Roger Mills
1c. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: caeruleancentaur
1d. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Jeffrey Jones
1e. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Henrik Theiling
1f. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
1g. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Henrik Theiling
1h. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: John Vertical
1i. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Dirk Elzinga
1j. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Dana Nutter
1k. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Roger Mills
1l. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
From: Jeffrey Jones
3. CA Bay Area meetup reminder - Aug 12th
From: Sai Emrys
4a. Re: Locative constructions in a:seka`eni (long)
From: James W.
4b. Re: Locative constructions in a:seka`eni (long)
From: Dana Nutter
5. Revisiting Lindiga
From: Herman Miller
6. Re: Conlang Flag as Vector Image
From: Henrik Theiling
7. Phonology sketch
From: John Vertical
Messages
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1a. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Dirk Elzinga" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 2:55 pm (PDT)
On 8/8/06, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Anyway, do others also have such a hard time finding personally
> pleasing phonologies? I find it awefully difficult.
Reading over Philip's reply to Henrik's question, I realized that
there are a number of ways to understand the word "phonology". As a
practicing linguist (it's what puts bread on the table), I tend to
think of the subject in different terms than most people around here
seem to do. So when I say that I find it difficult to create a
pleasing phonology, I do not mean that I find it difficult to come up
with an inventory of sounds that I like, or even to design suitable
rules for the realization of these sounds in context. Rather, the
rules themselves need to fit together in a consistent and pleasing way
that isn't always obvious until you try them out together.
Let me give you an example of what I mean. In Miapimoquitch, I have a
stress rule which stresses the first syllable of every word and every
odd numbered mora thereafter. (Proclitics are excluded from the stress
rule.) This means that a syllable which follows a heavy syllable is
also stressed, yielding a sequence of two stressed syllables in a row.
So in the word [táppùni] 'a rabbit', the first syllable is stressed by
the initial stress placement rule. Since the first syllable is heavy
and contains two moras, the third mora falls in the second syllable,
so it is stressed by the "law of alternating stresses".
In Miapimoquitch there is also a rule of intervocalic lenition. A
voiceless stop which immediately precedes a stressless vowel is
realized as a voiced fricative; for example, the word [pÃðɨ] 'see' is
underlyingly /pitɨ/. Since the second vowel is stressless, the /t/
preceding it is lenited.
These two rules interact, since lenition is dependent on stress
placement. Over the years I've tinkered with both rules. Lenition used
to apply to any intervocalic voiceless stop regardless of stress, and
stress placement used to avoid stress clashes. I liked the idea of
making lenition dependent on stress, but finally coming to grips with
where stress would fall has taken quite a while. Now Miapimoquitch
sounds "right", at least with respect to the interaction of stress and
lenition.
This is the kind of thing I thought of when Henrik posed his question;
I've been wrestling with this (and other phonological issues) for
quite a while now, and it is this part of the game which I find
particularly challenging (and rewarding).
Dirk
Messages in this topic (34)
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1b. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 3:35 pm (PDT)
Dirk Elzinga wrote:
> So in the word [táppùni] 'a rabbit'...
Was that "tapune" in an earlier incarnation? I see I've borrowed it into
Kash as _tavun_ 'a shy mammal sp., agricultural pest; hunted and eaten by
farmers'.
As for euphony, Kash was supposed to have an Indonesian/Malay sound, but it
sure doesn't-- it's all the fault of making the very frequent inanim. plural
to be -(V)S. Too late to change now, but perhaps in one of the relatives...
I'm not sure Gwr is euphonious...can't speak/read it fluently enough with
the right tones to tell. But it's mostly CV(C) with only three codas, [? h
N]. (My work on the sound changes rules is in hiatus, due to sister's
visit, not to mention my own confusion.)
Messages in this topic (34)
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1c. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 3:43 pm (PDT)
>>caeruleancentaur wrote:
>> If there is a conflict with a final consonant & an initial
>> consonant, an epenthetic /E/ is inserted. E.g., *mus sââta, I
>> stand, becomes musë sââta.
>"H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hmm. TF has rules of euphony, but none of them introduce epithentic
>vowels. TF's solution to "uneuphonic" clusters is to mutate the
>consonants.
I forgot to mention lenition.
The epenthetic /E/ is used between words only when the word-final
consonant would form an improper consonant cluster, i.e., either
1) a geminate cluster: -s to s- (as above) or
2) a cluster of more than two consonants.
In forming compounds, the epenthetic /E/ would be used in a
situation such as _âlµ-os_, tin, + _vââlos_, leaf, = _álµëvââlos_,
tinfoil, to avoid the 3-consonant cluster of _lµv_. (µ = /m_0/)
But if there are only two consonants involved in the compounding
then, if the word-final consonant is a stop, it is softened to the
corresponding fricative:
_âß-os_, axis + _têres_, star, = _aztêres_, pole star. (ß = /dz/)
Charlie
Messages in this topic (34)
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1d. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 3:48 pm (PDT)
On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 13:01:34 -0600, Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On 8/8/06, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>> Anyway, do others also have such a hard time finding personally
>> pleasing phonologies? I find it awefully difficult.
>
>I too find it difficult. It's a fairly easy thing to collect a list of
>sounds that are appealing in themselves, but to get them to work
>together in a pleasing, or at least convincing fashion is the real
>trick. I like the sound of the language I work with professionally
>(the Goshute dialect of Shoshoni), but I didn't want Miapimoquitch to
>be an acoustic copy of it (which it was, when it was still called
>Tepa). I've been working hard to get the sound of Miapimoquitch right,
>and I think I almost have it. I'm still not sure about stress and
>intonation, though ...
>
>Dirk
>=========================================================================
I have trouble with making a really good phonology as opposed to a passable
one. I also have the problem of putting the phonology and morphology
together. That is I can come up with a morphology I like and an acceptable
phonology, but can't come up with a set of affixes (or whatever) that works
well.
Jeff
P.S. more details of Miapimoquitch will be welcome.
Messages in this topic (34)
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1e. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 8:12 pm (PDT)
Hi!
Dirk Elzinga writes:
> On 8/8/06, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > [snip]
> >
> > Anyway, do others also have such a hard time finding personally
> > pleasing phonologies? I find it awefully difficult.
>
> Reading over Philip's reply to Henrik's question, I realized that
> there are a number of ways to understand the word "phonology". As a
> practicing linguist (it's what puts bread on the table), I tend to
> think of the subject in different terms than most people around here
> seem to do. So when I say that I find it difficult to create a
> pleasing phonology, I do not mean that I find it difficult to come up
> with an inventory of sounds that I like, or even to design suitable
> rules for the realization of these sounds in context. Rather, the
> rules themselves need to fit together in a consistent and pleasing way
> that isn't always obvious until you try them out together.
>...
I actually meant all of the aspects. I'm not sure where I get stuck,
but I always get stuck in the long process of finding the sounds,
defining possible sound combinations, defining sandhi/mutations,
etc. and finally, what you say, making the overall system behind it
'nice'. And for the mere sound, I cannot predict early enough how the
final language will be like when working towards it from single sounds
or even local sequences of sounds.
Anyway, Benct mentioned pleasing, pleasant, and mellifluous: I was
asking whether you manage to fit the phonology to your personal taste,
whatever that is. E.g. I discard most designs because I think they
are boring, thus not pleasing. OTOH, it is very hard to define what I
find boring -- the mere existence of a vowel systems as boring as /a i
u/ or /a e i o u/ is not boring to me. Yet, in contrast to other
posters, I find Quenya sounds boring (and unpleasant).
>...
> where stress would fall has taken quite a while. Now Miapimoquitch
> sounds "right", at least with respect to the interaction of stress and
> lenition.
>
> This is the kind of thing I thought of when Henrik posed his question;
Definitely this was part of my quesiton, yes. And it's interesting
where you got stuck there.
> I've been wrestling with this (and other phonological issues) for
> quite a while now, and it is this part of the game which I find
> particularly challenging (and rewarding).
Ah! I tend to get annoyed when the phonologies just don't work out
well. Often I feel any further tinkering only makes things worse.
Not very rewarding. This feeling seldom comes up for grammar issues
for me.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (34)
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1f. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:03 am (PDT)
Henrik Theiling skrev:
> Hi!
>
> Dirk Elzinga writes:
>> On 8/8/06, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Anyway, do others also have such a hard time finding personally
>>> pleasing phonologies? I find it awefully difficult.
>> Reading over Philip's reply to Henrik's question, I realized that
>> there are a number of ways to understand the word "phonology". As a
>> practicing linguist (it's what puts bread on the table), I tend to
>> think of the subject in different terms than most people around
>> here seem to do. So when I say that I find it difficult to create a
>> pleasing phonology, I do not mean that I find it difficult to come
>> up with an inventory of sounds that I like, or even to design
>> suitable rules for the realization of these sounds in context.
>> Rather, the rules themselves need to fit together in a consistent
>> and pleasing way that isn't always obvious until you try them out
>> together. ...
>
> I actually meant all of the aspects. I'm not sure where I get stuck,
> but I always get stuck in the long process of finding the sounds,
> defining possible sound combinations, defining sandhi/mutations, etc.
> and finally, what you say, making the overall system behind it
> 'nice'. And for the mere sound, I cannot predict early enough how
> the final language will be like when working towards it from single
> sounds or even local sequences of sounds.
I certainly took you to mean all of these aspects,
which I perhaps didn't express quite well when I
wrote about liking sibilants, affricates and fricatives:
it's not so much about liking these sounds in isolation
as liking the effect of amassing them! :-) Ceartainly
not pleasant, but pleasing to me. My fondness for
vowel harmony certainly also is an expression of a
concern with how sounds 'go together'.
> Anyway, Benct mentioned pleasing, pleasant, and mellifluous: I was
> asking whether you manage to fit the phonology to your personal
> taste, whatever that is. E.g. I discard most designs because I think
> they are boring, thus not pleasing. OTOH, it is very hard to define
> what I find boring -- the mere existence of a vowel systems as
> boring as /a i u/ or /a e i o u/ is not boring to me. Yet, in
> contrast to other posters, I find Quenya sounds boring (and
> unpleasant).
While I don't find Quenya unpleasant I do find it rather
boring. AFA T's languages go, I prefer Sindarin any day,
and most people would probably say Sohlob is more reminiscent
of the Black Speech (what little of it we have!). I was
very pleased when I read T's whim that _mallorn_ be pronounced
with /K/, even though it goes against the pronunciation
rules given in The Lord of the Rings. It also means that
you need to know the etymology of the word to know how an
individual _ll_ should be pronounced, which is both frustrating
and challenging, and thus in the end pleasing (to me).
>> ... where stress would fall has taken quite a while. Now
>> Miapimoquitch sounds "right", at least with respect to the
>> interaction of stress and lenition.
>>
>> This is the kind of thing I thought of when Henrik posed his
>> question;
>
> Definitely this was part of my quesiton, yes. And it's interesting
> where you got stuck there.
>
>> I've been wrestling with this (and other phonological issues) for
>> quite a while now, and it is this part of the game which I find
>> particularly challenging (and rewarding).
Incidentally stress and rythm has been and is thé
main problem with Sohlob phonology. My
'instinctive' pronunciation of unknown foreign words
is with final stress, and thus my a-priori conlangs
often tend in that direction at least initially.
Then it dawned on me that the kind of sound changes
I'd posited between Kijeb and Sohlob actually
presuppose a rather strong word-initial stress. So
the decision myst be that Kijeb had initial stress
while Sohlob tends towards final stress. One
possible path to get to this is by supposing a
phrase/sentence final stress that is stronger than
word stress. Not unlikely, I hope, in a verb-final
language. I also decided that one of the dialects
through loss of medial semivowels and /h/ acquired
phonemically long vowels, and then I found that
these long vowels attract stress. This would change
the rythm of that dialect, which may carry over to
the way its speakers speak the Classical dialect,
which lacks native speakers at the point in
fictional time I focus on.
Sohlob has definitely acquired a more staccato rythm
than what I had thought initially. Near absence of
initial consonant clusters and high frequency of
final clusters is a contributing (and pleasing)
factor.
> Ah! I tend to get annoyed when the phonologies just don't work out
> well. Often I feel any further tinkering only makes things worse.
> Not very rewarding. This feeling seldom comes up for grammar issues
> for me.
It definitely is the other way around for me, or rather
it is the same problem, and the same annoyance, but with
grammar rather than phonology!
> **Henrik
>
>
>
Jörg Rhiemeier skrev:
> Hallo!
>
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:18:39 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
>> What about the *other* meaning of 'phonology'?(*) how many of us
>> enjoy making up historical sound changes and groups of interrelated
>> languages.
>
> I do, very much so. Old Albic is not meant to be a solitary
> language; I am planning to build an entire family around it, and
> already have drafts of the sound changes. I have concrete plans for
> at least four further Albic languages, some ideas for a few more, and
> Albic will in turn be part of a larger "Hesperic" language family.
Can you keep yourself from working on several or all of
them in tandem? Do you find it or bad to work on the
languages one at a time or in tandem? I tend to work
on mine in tandem, having to live with the 'difficulties'
caused by sudden changes of my understanding of one
language/dialect or evolutional stage, which then must
be retrofitted into the others. In practice the different
related languages tend to spawn when I come up with several
alternative 'design' details (in the synchronic or diachronic
aspect), since I tend to assign the alternatives to different
'dialects' rather than choosing between them. In a sense
Kidilib and Heleb are version 2.0 and 3.0 of Sohlob, only
I have continued to make new releases of all three versions,
while being interrelated and also depending on the Kijeb
pre-language, which also keeps changing its 'synchronic'
structure. Then there is also Linjeb(*) which is a separate
and in some ways rather different descendant of Kijeb.
(* The words _Kijeb_ and _Linjeb_ are Sohlob words, as
I have not yet figured out what their 'native' names are.
It has even taken a good deal of retrofitting to make a
Sohlob form /kidz\i\b/ fit the historical phonology and
the Kijeb root structure constraints. Luckily I can
posit mutual borrowing and 'blending' of word forms
between the different daughter dialects! :-)
> What regards Henrik's original question, I don't find it all to
> difficult to come up with a satisfying phonology. That, like
> morphology and syntax, is an easy part to me. I have difficulties
> with vocabulary.
I find phonology not hard at all -- always pleasurable
though it may get complicated! Grammar is more of a
struggle while vocabulary is well-nigh impossible.
I have used computer-generated vocabulary for my
a-priori langs. I actually find it a pleasing
challenge to design or configure a generator to
produce all forms that satisfy the phonological
constraints and none that violate them. It's all
the easier since I despise the notion of the
sound of words fitting their meaning. In fact
Quenya would possibly be more interesting if the
sound of its words were less 'fitting'. Also I
usually place my a-priori languages in totally
a-priori con-cultures, con-histories and con-
geographies, rather than trying to 'explain'
obscure words in various natlangs as you seek
to do with Albic. NB I don't say it's wrong:
I have ended up doing a bit of that with Mærik,
and found it fun. Everybody is of course free
to have fun in whatever way pleases them.
(I rather doubt that conlanging can hurt any
non-consenting sentient being!)
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
"Maybe" is a strange word. When mum or dad says it
it means "yes", but when my big brothers say it it
means "no"!
(Philip Jonsson jr, age 7)
Messages in this topic (34)
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1g. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:31 am (PDT)
Hi!
Benct Philip Jonsson writes:
>... I have used computer-generated vocabulary for my a-priori langs.
>I actually find it a pleasing challenge to design or configure a
>generator to produce all forms that satisfy the phonological
>constraints and none that violate them. It's all the easier since I
>despise the notion of the sound of words fitting their meaning. ...
That's interesting again: I have no problems at all writing word
generators for my engelangs, it's like implementing the phonology of
single words, not more and not less. So I always use them (for
engelangs). But I cannot easily create a lexicon anyway, since the
design of entries, the break-down, derivation, compounding, decision
of what is a root, etc. is awefully painful again.
My current lexicon project tries to only focus on a solution for my
engelangs. Probably all my upcoming engelangs will use that 'lexicon
module' this project hopefully yields.
And even in Þrjótrunn (a romlang), I struggle for ages for each new
word (particularly verbs, it turns out) a) to find out what would be
the most 'realistic' choice and b) to decide what simplifications or
modifications the forms would have undergone (additional to the mere
application of the GMP). This is although the Romance languages
practically give me all I need. However, since Þrjótrunn is
contructed to have less Gallic influence and more Germanic, it is
different from the romnatlangs here.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (34)
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1h. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:33 am (PDT)
Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>I'm the quintessential phonology nerd. Indeed my conlangs
>seldom and only with an effort develop beyond a phonology...
In _that_ aspect you're certainly not alone.
>I think one has to distinguish between a phonology -- or any
>aspect of a language or anything else for that matter! :-) --
>being pleas*ing*, pleas*ant* and mellifluous, since they
>may not coincide: if you *want* a harsh-sounding language
>then [XR=S] is a pleasing, if unpleasant, sound, and too
>much mellifluency may be unpleasant (both qualitatively
>and quantitatively: I once tried a language without
>obstruents, but it turned out neither pleasing nor pleasant! :-)
Wait... are you claiming that there exists some sort of objectiv
pleasantness which is separate from both pleasingness and mellifluousness?
Please elaborate.
-Obstruentlessness sounds steep, but I'm attempting to diachronically
develop a language with only /t k/ (plus non-phonemic affricates), and even
those rare...
>What about the *other* meaning of 'phonology'?(*) how many
>of us enjoy making up historical sound changes and groups
>of interrelated languages. I quite like the way a rather
>limited arsenal of plausible sound changes applied in different
>order and proportion can create quite diverse effects.
Oh, definitely. I tend to favor what I think is called "evolutionary
phonology", i.e. tracing the origins and demises of "major" distinctions -
the small changes like vowel-juggling and partial mergers are neat too, but
ultimately I find them less interesting. Currently I'm (among other things)
trying to outline the development of a distant relativ of uwjge, which has
all kinds of bizarrities, like four different glottal stop phonemes.
Actually, that phonology is currently pretty much nothing else than glottal
stop weirdness... (Note to self: figure out how the recent discovery of
proto-uwjge 3rd (ejectiv?) stop series fits in there.)
>Kate skrev:
> >
> > I do, although for me it's more about how the language looks than how
> > it actually sounds. Since I create most of my languages for stories,
> > how the language looks in transliteration is important to me. (And I'm
> > picky about the transliteration not being too inaccurate or ambiguous,
> > too.) I probably spend more time trying to balance what I consider
> > interesting and pleasing with what's sensible and pleasing in
> > transliteration.
>
>Like you I'm picky about transcription/transliteration/Romanization.
>I have some ingrained peeves, of which "|h| digraphs should preferably
>be used only to indicate aspiration and/or voiceless sonorants, and
>*not* as a fricativizer, even less as a palatalizer and *absolutely
>not* as a random modifier" is the chief one.
Hmm... sort of seconded. I used to dislike palatalizing <h> too, but once I
realized where it comes - /s/ + /x/ -> /S/ - it's not all that bad, at least
when limited to voiceless sounds; the lack of a *good* Latin letter for /G/
makes the issue possibly even worse for voiced ones.
>I also tend to prefer
>diacritics over digraphs or IPA for practical transcription -- the
>latter because IPA is hard to write by hand and lack capitals(*)
>
>(* Note to wouldbe nitpickers: I do know about the African
>orthographies' IPA capitals. They are mostly even worse!)
>
>--
>/BP 8^)>
FWIW, I think at least the capital eng (the one that does not look like an N
variant) looks nice.
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (34)
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1i. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Dirk Elzinga" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:34 am (PDT)
On 8/9/06, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dirk Elzinga wrote:
> > So in the word [táppùni] 'a rabbit'...
Oops. That should have been [táppùnɨ] (with "barred-i" as the final vowel).
> Was that "tapune" in an earlier incarnation? I see I've borrowed it into
> Kash as _tavun_ 'a shy mammal sp., agricultural pest; hunted and eaten by
> farmers'.
Yes, it's the same word._tapune_ is the Romanization I was using for a
while to represent /tapunɨ/, which is realized as [táβunɨ]. This is
the definite form. The indefinite form is [táppùnɨ], which I included
in my post yesterday. So you borrowed it into Kash? I'm flattered!
Matt Pearson, whom some list members may remember, had the word _tepa_
for 'thrush' in Tokana. "Tepa" was the name of the immediate ancestor
to Miapimoquitch. I returned the favor and coined the word /tukana/
for 'thrush' in Tepa. I still have it in Miapimoquitch: [túɣana] 'the
thrush'; [túkkàna] 'a thrush'.
> As for euphony, Kash was supposed to have an Indonesian/Malay sound, but it
> sure doesn't-- it's all the fault of making the very frequent inanim. plural
> to be -(V)S. Too late to change now, but perhaps in one of the relatives...
That's exactly the impression I got of Kash--not that I know
Indonesian/Malay with any kind of intimacy, but it does have that look
...
> I'm not sure Gwr is euphonious...can't speak/read it fluently enough with
> the right tones to tell. But it's mostly CV(C) with only three codas, [? h
> N]. (My work on the sound changes rules is in hiatus, due to sister's
> visit, not to mention my own confusion.)
I don't think I'd call Miapimoquitch "euphonious", but it is *right*.
In that sense, BP makes the right kinds of distinction, I think,
between a phonology that is "pleasing" (because it is *right*) and one
that is "pleasant" (because it has nice sounds).
Dirk
Messages in this topic (34)
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1j. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Dana Nutter" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:54 am (PDT)
li [Christian Thalmann] mi tulis la
> --- In [email protected], Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Anyway, do others also have such a hard time finding personally
> > pleasing phonologies? I find it awefully difficult.
>
> Not at all, I absolutely love making phonologies. Disappointingly
> (?), I usually end up with rather simple vowel systems, and no
> hard-to-pronounce consonants. But maybe that's just the recipe
> for pleasing phonologies? It seems to work for Quenya, IMHO the
> hallmark of pleasing phonology.
I've started workiing a personal language and designed the phonology for
my own preferences as below. The romanizations are also shown but there
is a "native" script for it also.
X-SAMPA: A b x d D e f g h i j k l m n N o p G r s S t T u v w @
y z Z
Romanized: A B C D Ð E F G H I J K L M N ? O P Q R S T Þ U V W X
Y Z
I may change /y/ to /1/ though.
Messages in this topic (34)
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1k. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:16 pm (PDT)
Dirk Elzinga wrote:
> On 8/9/06, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Dirk Elzinga wrote:
> > > So in the word [táppùni] 'a rabbit'...
> > Was that "tapune" in an earlier incarnation? I see I've borrowed it into
> > Kash as _tavun_ 'a shy mammal sp., agricultural pest; hunted and eaten
> > by
> > farmers'.
>
> Yes, it's the same word....So you borrowed it into Kash? I'm flattered!
I also got Kash _poya_ '(a trickster-type animal)' < your .... 'coyote'
IIRC, and _ñuña_ 'sticky resin' < your .... 'pine resin'. These were from a
story that involved coyote, I think, juggling his eyeballs, or something
like that. It also produced the Kash word for 'juggle' _findoro_, but I
think that's a priori. :-)))))
Messages in this topic (34)
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1l. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:21 pm (PDT)
Hallo!
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:01:31 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> While I don't find Quenya unpleasant I do find it rather
> boring. AFA T's languages go, I prefer Sindarin any day,
> [...]
I like Quenya's elaborate case system - but Sindarin has some more "spice"
that Quenya lacks, such as the initial mutations, the front rounded vowels
and the umlaut plurals. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
And then there are so many interesting things Tolkien hasn't done in any of
his Quendian languages ...
> Jörg Rhiemeier skrev:
> > Hallo!
> >
> > On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:18:39 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> >
> >> What about the *other* meaning of 'phonology'?(*) how many of us
> >> enjoy making up historical sound changes and groups of interrelated
> >> languages.
> >
> > I do, very much so. Old Albic is not meant to be a solitary
> > language; I am planning to build an entire family around it, and
> > already have drafts of the sound changes. I have concrete plans for
> > at least four further Albic languages, some ideas for a few more, and
> > Albic will in turn be part of a larger "Hesperic" language family.
>
> Can you keep yourself from working on several or all of
> them in tandem? Do you find it or bad to work on the
> languages one at a time or in tandem?
I find it hard to keep myself from working on several of them at the same
time. Finishing Old Albic has first priority for me, but what is to do
there is lexicon work, which I find difficult. So I find myself tinkering
with the sound changes of this or that language and all that instead.
The phonological histories of the main Albic languages are all worked out
to a high degree (though I wouldn't call any of them "finished", and they
all may change in the future); the non-Albic Hesperic languages all lie
almost completely unexplored. I have postponed them indefinitely; Old
Albic goes first - and then there are things more important in my life
than conlanging.
> [...]
> > What regards Henrik's original question, I don't find it all to
> > difficult to come up with a satisfying phonology. That, like
> > morphology and syntax, is an easy part to me. I have difficulties
> > with vocabulary.
>
> I find phonology not hard at all -- always pleasurable
> though it may get complicated! Grammar is more of a
> struggle while vocabulary is well-nigh impossible.
So we have the same problem.
> I have used computer-generated vocabulary for my
> a-priori langs. [...]
No, that is not for me. First of all, it requires programming - something
I find no fun doing. Second, I feel that words must be hand-crafted to
sound "right" - vocabulary generators are to conlanging what rhythm machines
are to music. Creative work refuses to be automated.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (34)
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2. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 4:51 pm (PDT)
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 16:36:50 +1000, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm forwarding a (rather long) reply I recently made to Maarten van Wijk
about a question he raised on the Linguist list. My main question to you
all is:
>
> In your conlangs, what kinds of logical connectives have you implemented?
> Examples would be:
> 1. A and B - AND
> 2. A or B or both (A and B) - the "inclusive or", OR
> 3. A or B but not both (A and B) - the "exclusive or", XOR
> 4. If A, then B - "A implies B"
> 5. A only if B - "A is implied by B"
> 6. A if and only if B - "A and B imply each other", "A and B are
equivalent"
> 7. not A - ie the statement A is not true - cf Malay "tidak" for logical
negation, below
> 8. M is not a N - ie the thing M is not one of the things N - cf
Malay "bukan" for categorical negation, below
> 9. neither A nor B - ie not A and not B
>
> A secondary question is, if you wish to comment, how strictly do they
match the logician's view of those connectives?
>
>Regards,
>Yahya
>
In 'Yemls, I implemented 1, 2, 3, and 7 (or 8 -- I've forgotten which). All
others logical connectives are are derived from these. For example, 4 would
be: OR NOT A OR B (the conjunction is placed before the first clause as
well as successive clauses). More than two clauses can be connected. For 3,
the actual function isn't strictly XOR. XOR A XOR B XOR C would be true iff
exactly one of A, B, or C is true. You can guess that they're fairly
logical.
Jeff
Messages in this topic (34)
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3. CA Bay Area meetup reminder - Aug 12th
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 5:17 pm (PDT)
Bay Area Conlang Meetup: (perhaps should rename this a NorCal meetup?)
This Saturday, August 12th @ 2pm
Vik's Chaat Corner, Berkeley CA
Email if you need a ride from Berkeley BART.
Expected attendance at this point is almost a dozen. :-O
- Sai
Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Locative constructions in a:seka`eni (long)
Posted by: "James W." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 8:01 pm (PDT)
On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 14:25:38 -0400, "Roger Mills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> James W. wrote:
> > > > I'm currently working on the locative constructions in
> > > > a:seka`eni. ...
> > > > I found a really interesting paper by Marcus
> > > > Kracht, "On the Semantics of Locatives (2000)" describing
> > > > them as consisting of a configuration and a mode ...
>
> I haven't read the paper yet, but it's a very interesting system, and you
> presented it well.
Thanks. Definitely still needs work, though.
> In addition to oddities/questions raised by others, my immediate thought
> was:
>
> How to distinguish "general" location from "specific"? i.e.
>
> a. John is in New York.
> b. John is in the bathroom.
>
> c.The meat is in the pot -- b and c I guess would be "inside" wouldn't
> they?
Very good question. These English examples all do rather well using
the same word. Right now a:seka`eni only has one form for the sense
of "in" as well. However, after reading the on- and off-list responses
that may change, esp. regarding the 'touch' dimension. Tom Chappell
mentioned (offlist) that some languages have four degrees of 'touch':
penetration
adhesion/cohesion
contact
proximity
If I were to adopt some or all of these, then I think from your examples
above that a. and b. could be 'in' + proximity; and c. could be 'in' +
contact.
> And how about "from a high location to an even higher one?" -- a bird
> flying
> out of a tree for ex.
Hmm. Well, I don't have qualitatives (term?--high, low, middle, etc.) or
comparatives yet. As for flying out of a tree, that would be done with
'in' +
coinitial ('out of').
> IIRC I had problems in Kash with some of these, such as beside/next to
> (touching)...
All of the feedback that I have received has shown me the problems, or
omissions, rather, from my system--for which I am grateful. :)) The more
I think about this approach to locatives, the more I like it. It just
needs
some refinement. Don't know when I'll be able to focus on it though...
Hopefully in the next week.
--------
James W.
Messages in this topic (10)
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4b. Re: Locative constructions in a:seka`eni (long)
Posted by: "Dana Nutter" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:10 pm (PDT)
> > In addition to oddities/questions raised by others, my
> immediate thought
> > was:
> >
> > How to distinguish "general" location from "specific"? i.e.
> >
> > a. John is in New York.
> > b. John is in the bathroom.
> >
> > c.The meat is in the pot -- b and c I guess would be
> "inside" wouldn't
> > they?
It depends on how broad you want the meaning of "in" to be. For
example:
a. John is IN (within the boundaries of) New York.
b. John is IN (within the space of) the bathroom.
c. The meat is IN (same as b.)
A couple of different things can eb done in Sasxsek.
a. li dzjan pos tu li nu'jork.
NAME John be-located at NAME New-York.
li dzjan pos hinu li nu'jork.
NAME John located interior+PREP NAME New-York.
li dzjan pos hinusimanu li nu'jork.
NAME John located inside+boundary+PREP NAME New-York.
li dzjan pos simanu li nu'jork.
NAME John located boundary+PREP NAME New-York.
The first would be the most likely usage, but the others are possible
depending upon how specific the speaker wants to be.
Messages in this topic (10)
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5. Revisiting Lindiga
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 8:49 pm (PDT)
Lately I've been taking another look at Lindiga, the language that was a
predecessor to Minza. There are some things I really like about it, like
the unusual retroflex lateral fricatives and some of the naturalistic
irregularities. Lindiga has a lot of words borrowed from English in a
rather distorted way (mies "mouse", ntiki "indigo" etc.) and from other
languages as well. I never got around to replacing enough of these words
to make a proper fictional language out of it. Probably just as well,
since I never quite figured out who speaks it. At any rate, I've decided
to keep all these natlang-derived words, except for a few minor changes
like "serrti" for "green" instead of "werrti". ("Serrti" is the source
of the Minza word "zerji".) I've left the spelling mainly similar except
for adding "ph" as a long "f" sound (in preference to the original "vv")
and eliminating the accent mark on the retroflex flap "r"; trilled "r"
is now always written "rr" whether long or short (only a few words have
long trilled "r"). I've updated the main index page and the phonology
page; other pages will eventually follow.
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/lang/Lindiga/index.html
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/lang/Lindiga/phonology.html
I also took another look at the Lindiga color chart and decided to
update the colors to show better examples of the basic color words. Some
of the old colors were a little off.
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/png/lindiga-colors.png
Next: what to do about the noun classes? I wonder if I can figure out
any patterns for which nouns have which "genders"...
Messages in this topic (1)
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6. Re: Conlang Flag as Vector Image
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:39 am (PDT)
Hi!
Arthaey Angosii writes:
> Does anyone have a vector version of the conlang flag file? I can
> reverse-engineer my own from the PNGs out there if I must, but
> presumably *someone* has an original Photoshop (, PaintShop Pro, Gimp,
> what have you) project file.
>
> I want to modify the design, add an Asha'ille phrase ("Saravaiye ghya
> aet n'ö?", "What do YOU create?"), and have my mom embroider both on a
> shirt for me. :)
>...
An SVG version was posted once:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0512D&L=CONLANG&P=R1922&I=-3
I've uploaded a copy to my page, too:
http://www.kunstsprachen.de/conlang-flag.svg
In my browser, however, there is a rendering bug, but I know the
browser is not very trustworthy wrt. SVG. Hopefully you are more
lucky.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (2)
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7. Phonology sketch
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:02 am (PDT)
With all the overall phonology discussion goïng on, here's one I've started
recently. Comments welcome, altho it's pretty unfinished. I'm posting this
more to show my working techniq.
Onsets:
/p p_l t t_w tK tS tS_w k k_w/
/b b_l d d_w dK\ dZ dZ_w g g_w/
/P P_l T T_w s s_w K h/
/m m_l n n_w n_l/
Codas:
/N k h/
(You can see I'm endorsing here /P/ for the v.less blb. fric; /v\/ already
does the job just well for the lab-dnt. approximant, no need to waste two
symbols for it, and /P/ goes better with /p b B/ than /p\/.)
Allophony includes at least nasal coda assimilation, and intervocal lenition
of /P P_l T K s dZ g/ > /B B_l D K\ z Z G/ (plus the same w/ labialized
phonemes); the fricativs also before the nasal coda. The rest of the voiced
plosivs might undergo similar lenition, too, but I'm not sure.
I might add more codas; or maybe replace coda /k/ with /?/. If there'll be
only one plosiv coda, I think it would probably be /?/. I've considered
making it antiharmonic, too - maybe [k] with dorsal onsets, [t] with others?
/h/- or nasal-initial medial clusters are fun and shall be fairly freely
occuring, but the plosiv will have to do with more restricted distribution,
possibly only word-finally?
Anyway, this part still needs work. At the moment it doesn't really have
flavor as much as random ingredients.
-I got the basic idea of labials with lateral release from Hmong. Coronals
regularily come in 3+ series, and more than one dorsal series isn't rare
either, but more than one labial series is. This sketch aims exactly to fill
that hole among conlangs. A /tK/ series, then, was a natural addition (Hmong
itself does not have one!)
Next I decided to add labialized postalveolars - something I've wanted to
implement for quite some time now. Labialization contrast occurs commonly in
velars and front vowels both, so it shouldn't be too much of a stretch in
*palatals > postalveolars. So far this was independant of the whole
lateralization system, but then I remembered that I had wanted to install a
labialization contrast in interdentals, too. Palatalization of those I've
seen in Ugric languages, and pharyngealization in Semitic, but labialization
nowhere. So that was yet another hole filled.
As you can see, the initials system is pretty regular by now. I might even
add a rounded /tK/ series, but then again, I might not, depending on the
diacronical origins of the labialization. I'm not too fond of /t_w d_w/ so I
could try to work those away instead. /s_w/ is OK, but if I am to make the
interdentals independant of the dentals/alveolars (haven't settled yet)
it'll probably have to go too.
Yep, no approximants. How's that for a change?
I'm also thinking a third stop series might fit in, but I can't think what
it could be. Hmong has prenasalization, but I'm not trying to make a clone
of it. Ejectivs don't feel like they'd fit well together with
lateralization, and I've got aspirates in way too many other phonologies
already; but what does that leave? Voiceless presibilated? That might look
too IE-ish... but indeed, I don't have those yet anywhere.
Vowels, then. The basic idea here was consonantal, so I'll have to think up
a vowel system independantly. I'm thinking of the system having gone thru a
bottleneck not too long ago (which could also have caused the lack of /j
w/), so it would have to be fairly regular; also, labialization could be
contrastiv only before certain vowels, maybe either those that are rounded,
or those that do not themselves contrast by labialization. I initially
thought about this:
short /i y e E~ 6 6~ o O~ u/
long /ei 2y E: a: O: ou/
difthongal /ai ay Au/
But I could also import that old system of /i e E a O o u ai aE aV au VM/
for which I already have much history worked out, but no consonants to go
with...
About stress / intonation I have no idea yet. A tonal system or a pitch
accent could fit the flavor, but I already have those elsewhere; maybe it
would be time for phonemic stress this time? I'll have to decide the vowel
system before that, however.
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (1)
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