There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
From: Carsten Becker
1b. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
From: Henrik Theiling
2a. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Carsten Becker
2b. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Philip Newton
2c. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Henrik Theiling
3a. Re: OT: How to open almost any lock in seconds
From: John Vertical
3b. Re: OT: How to open almost any lock in seconds
From: Sai Emrys
3c. Re: OT: How to open almost any lock in seconds
From: Gary Shannon
4a. Huldre and memories of lost ethnic groups (was Re: Nimrina phonology
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
4b. Re: Huldre and memories of lost ethnic groups (was Re: Nimrina
From: Herman Miller
4c. Re: Huldre and memories of lost ethnic groups (was Re: Nimrina
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
5a. Weekly vocab revival?
From: Henrik Theiling
5b. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
From: Shreyas Sampat
5c. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
From: Kalle Bergman
5d. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
From: Henrik Theiling
5e. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
From: Roger Mills
5f. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
From: Henrik Theiling
5g. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
From: Ph.D.
5h. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
From: Tim May
6a. Re: Nimrina phonology
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
6b. Re: Nimrina phonology
From: Herman Miller
7a. OT: WorldCon
From: Jeffrey Jones
7b. Re: OT: WorldCon
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
Messages
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1a. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:11 am (PDT)
From: "Henrik Theiling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:21 AM
> I don't find Icelandic clusters too scary myself --
> Icelandic has
> simplified clusters significantly during its history --
Right, Icelandic not necessarily pronounced as it's written.
> It is very unusual for me to switch between pre-, post-
> and unaspirated stops, for example.
They have all three?!
> And palatal stops, especially in
> this configuration, are also not easy for me.
Example?
> With this project, I practice almost daily now. :-)
This might be handy:
http://media.straumar.is/ruv/ras1.asx -- it's Rás 1, one of
the handful Icelandic radio stations.
Yours,
Carsten
Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:20 am (PDT)
Hi!
Carsten Becker writes:
> From: "Henrik Theiling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>...
> > It is very unusual for me to switch between pre-, post-
> > and unaspirated stops, for example.
>
> They have all three?!
Yes. But not all three in the same positions. Initially, there is a
contrast between un- and postaspirated plosives, and medially,
plosives are either un- or preaspirated. E.g.
köttur /k_h2htYr/ cat (nom.sg.)
götur /k2:tYr/ streets (nom./acc.pl)
Graphemes:
initially:
|k| /k_h/
|g| /k/
medially:
|k|, |g| /k/ preceding vowel is long
|gg| /k/ preceding vowel is short
|kk| /hk/ preceding vowel is short
The same holds for |p|,|b| and |t|,|d|.
|k| and |g| behave differently in medial clusters, however, e.g.
|gl| = |kl|, |kl| = /hkK/.
All in all, Icelandic orthography is quite regular, but also quite
different from what you might expect. I'd really need to add
pronunciations to the examples on my Þrjótrunn page.
(BTW, I've found different views about aspiration, too. Björn
Kristinsson does use aspirated phonemes for medial plosives in his PhD
thesis about speech synthesis.)
> > And palatal stops, especially in this configuration, are also not
> > easy for me.
>
> Example?
Palatal plosives are triggered by following /j/ or a following front
vowel (or what was a front vowel in earlier times, e.g. |æ| /ai)/).
You get the same contrast as above, i.e. /c/ vs. /J\/ vs. /hc/.
I forgot to mention that the unvoiced nasals are also hard for me:
/n_0 m_0 J_0 N_0/, e.g.
banki /pau)J_0cI/ bank (nom.sg.)
banka /pau)N_0ka/ bank (other sg. and acc./gen.pl.)
Or even in initial position:
hnífur /n_0i:vYr/ knife
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:16 am (PDT)
From: "Dirk Elzinga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:52 PM
>> Seconded. BTW, do I correctly interpret what you wrote
>> and Miapimoquitch has pitch accent?
>
> No, there is no pitch accent in Miapimoquitch. Out of
> curiosity, what
> lead you to believe that Miapimoquitch had pitch accent?
> Is it my
> non-IPA usage of acute and grave? If so, they are meant to
> mark
> primary and secondary stress, respectively, and not pitch
> levels.
It were the grave and acute accents that lead me to this
assumption, yes. I'm used to ' and , to mark stress (or in
XS " and %).
Carsten
Messages in this topic (54)
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2b. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:08 pm (PDT)
On 8/19/06, Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> See, here's my difficulty with ablaut -- this will mirror your own
> comments. In all of the cases I'm aware of, ablaut is synchronically
> arbitrary. There are examples where it makes sense historically, but
> none that I know of where it is a principled synchronic alternation
> (though I'd be happy to be corrected).
Not sure whether this counts, but - the diminutive suffix -chen causes
ablaut in the preceding syllable (if that means what I think it
means). So that's something that's synchronically principled.
(Except when it isn't; the most famous example being "Frauchen" =
"mistress/owner (of a dog)", instead of the expected *"Fräuchen". This
giving the near-minimal pair "fauchen/Frauchen" for [ç] vs [x].)
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (54)
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2c. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:15 pm (PDT)
Hi!
Philip Newton writes:
> On 8/19/06, Dirk Elzinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > See, here's my difficulty with ablaut -- this will mirror your own
> > comments. In all of the cases I'm aware of, ablaut is synchronically
> > arbitrary. There are examples where it makes sense historically, but
> > none that I know of where it is a principled synchronic alternation
> > (though I'd be happy to be corrected).
>
> Not sure whether this counts, but - the diminutive suffix -chen causes
> ablaut in the preceding syllable (if that means what I think it
> means). So that's something that's synchronically principled.
>...
That's umlaut. Ablaut is found in German verbs: liegen - lag -
gelegen. This comes from IE's three stem degrees with zero, -e-, and
-o- degree, which causes most Greek verbs to be irregular, too, so
this is much older a phenomenon than umlaut, and correspondingly much
less principled in today's grammar of German.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (54)
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3a. Re: OT: How to open almost any lock in seconds
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:03 am (PDT)
>Summarized on my blog here: http://saizai.livejournal.com/712792.html
>
>Totally un-conlang related, but should be of interest to many of you
>anyway - and there's no limit on how OT we can be.
>
> - Sai
Makes me glad to live in the ABLOY homelands. :)
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: OT: How to open almost any lock in seconds
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:57 am (PDT)
IIRC this works on Abloy locks too.
- Sai
On 8/20/06, John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Summarized on my blog here: http://saizai.livejournal.com/712792.html
> >
> >Totally un-conlang related, but should be of interest to many of you
> >anyway - and there's no limit on how OT we can be.
> >
> > - Sai
>
> Makes me glad to live in the ABLOY homelands. :)
>
> John Vertical
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: OT: How to open almost any lock in seconds
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:52 am (PDT)
--- Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Summarized on my blog here: http://saizai.livejournal.com/712792.html
>
> Totally un-conlang related, but should be of interest to many of you
> anyway - and there's no limit on how OT we can be.
>
> - Sai
>
Here's the simplets solution: own nothing worth stealing so you can leave your
doors and windows unlocked anyway.
--gary
Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Huldre and memories of lost ethnic groups (was Re: Nimrina phonology
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:26 am (PDT)
Hallo!
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:28:11 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> As may be found if one googles for "huldre" and its
> synonyms there is a theory that the Hidden People
> reflect a memory of a pre-Germanic population.
This is similar to what I think what "Elves" (as in Germanic and Celtic
mythology) actually are: a memory of an ancient civilization that existed on
the British Isles (_Alfheim_ = Britain; _Inis Albion_ means 'Island of the
Elves') more than 2000 years ago. Of course, these "Elves" were ordinary
humans, not some strange kind of "demihuman" species. They may also be the
Hyperboreans of Greek myth, and the original Atlanteans. This is the idea
that underlies my own Albic conlang project.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Huldre and memories of lost ethnic groups (was Re: Nimrina
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:33 am (PDT)
Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo!
>
> On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:28:11 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
>> As may be found if one googles for "huldre" and its
>> synonyms there is a theory that the Hidden People
>> reflect a memory of a pre-Germanic population.
>
> This is similar to what I think what "Elves" (as in Germanic and Celtic
> mythology) actually are: a memory of an ancient civilization that existed on
> the British Isles (_Alfheim_ = Britain; _Inis Albion_ means 'Island of the
> Elves') more than 2000 years ago. Of course, these "Elves" were ordinary
> humans, not some strange kind of "demihuman" species. They may also be the
> Hyperboreans of Greek myth, and the original Atlanteans. This is the idea
> that underlies my own Albic conlang project.
>
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Hmm.. so the Atlanteans of Tolkien's world, the Númenóreans, speak a
language (Adûnaic) related to "Nimrian", and on the other hand, the
speakers of "Nimrína" may be related to the original Atlanteans.
Coincidence? Now I'm just going to have to develop an "Atlantean"
language related to Nimrína!
Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: Huldre and memories of lost ethnic groups (was Re: Nimrina
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:27 pm (PDT)
Hallo!
On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:24:21 -0500, Herman Miller wrote:
> Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> > Hallo!
> >
> > On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:28:11 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> >
> >> As may be found if one googles for "huldre" and its
> >> synonyms there is a theory that the Hidden People
> >> reflect a memory of a pre-Germanic population.
> >
> > This is similar to what I think what "Elves" (as in Germanic and Celtic
> > mythology) actually are: a memory of an ancient civilization that existed
> > on
> > the British Isles (_Alfheim_ = Britain; _Inis Albion_ means 'Island of the
> > Elves') more than 2000 years ago. Of course, these "Elves" were ordinary
> > humans, not some strange kind of "demihuman" species. They may also be
> > the
> > Hyperboreans of Greek myth, and the original Atlanteans. This is the idea
> > that underlies my own Albic conlang project.
> >
> > ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
>
> Hmm.. so the Atlanteans of Tolkien's world, the Númenóreans, speak a
> language (Adûnaic) related to "Nimrian", and on the other hand, the
> speakers of "Nimrína" may be related to the original Atlanteans.
> Coincidence? Now I'm just going to have to develop an "Atlantean"
> language related to Nimrína!
:)
Well, the British Elves are not a "secretive race of people with fox-tails";
as I already said, they are perfectly normal humans. And Albic as it is
today doesn't really owe that much to Tolkien. Sure, the project started
out as a modern-day offshot of Sindarin, but the language has been rebuilt
from scratch in the meantime, with only a handful of Tolkienisms remaining,
and those few are about to be weeded out.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Weekly vocab revival?
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:52 am (PDT)
Dear fellow conlangers!
Recently, I was thinking of reviving the weekly vocab. And the first
step of continuation is, as we all know from TV, the rerun.
So I was thinking of posting automatically every week one of the old
weekly vocabs that currently sleep in the archives. It is currently
fodder for more than half a year of work, I think (there are > 30
posts IIRC).
The idea is that it is much easier to find the motivation for
inventing vocab if someone else provides you with small chunks of work
regularly. And since there are new conlangs, we need new vocab. Some
people have stated here that vocab is hard for them to work at, so I
suppose some motivation would be good. Therefore, I think, the old
weekly vocabs may validly be reposted.
Whenever someone comes up with a new set of words, I will happily
enqueue it into the automatical weekly posting mechanism, with higher
priority so that original vocab will be posted first. This would also
take the burden of continuously thinking of new vocab from one single
person and distribute it -- I would simply gather what whoever sends
to me and enqueue it, keeping it at small, regular chunks.
What do y'all think?
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (8)
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5b. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
Posted by: "Shreyas Sampat" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:36 am (PDT)
Henrik Theiling wrote:
>Dear fellow conlangers!
>
>Recently, I was thinking of reviving the weekly vocab. And the first
>step of continuation is, as we all know from TV, the rerun.
>
>
Henrik, this whole plan sounds great.
Messages in this topic (8)
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5c. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
Posted by: "Kalle Bergman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:02 am (PDT)
Might a newbie be so brash as to ask, what the weekly
vocab is?
/Kalle
--- Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev:
> Dear fellow conlangers!
>
> Recently, I was thinking of reviving the weekly
> vocab. And the first
> step of continuation is, as we all know from TV, the
> rerun.
>
> So I was thinking of posting automatically every
> week one of the old
> weekly vocabs that currently sleep in the archives.
> It is currently
> fodder for more than half a year of work, I think
> (there are > 30
> posts IIRC).
>
> The idea is that it is much easier to find the
> motivation for
> inventing vocab if someone else provides you with
> small chunks of work
> regularly. And since there are new conlangs, we
> need new vocab. Some
> people have stated here that vocab is hard for them
> to work at, so I
> suppose some motivation would be good. Therefore, I
> think, the old
> weekly vocabs may validly be reposted.
>
> Whenever someone comes up with a new set of words, I
> will happily
> enqueue it into the automatical weekly posting
> mechanism, with higher
> priority so that original vocab will be posted
> first. This would also
> take the burden of continuously thinking of new
> vocab from one single
> person and distribute it -- I would simply gather
> what whoever sends
> to me and enqueue it, keeping it at small, regular
> chunks.
>
> What do y'all think?
>
> **Henrik
>
Messages in this topic (8)
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5d. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:21 am (PDT)
Hi!
Kalle Bergman writes:
> Might a newbie be so brash as to ask, what the weekly
> vocab is?
But of course. Here's the first post:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0203e&L=conlang&F=&S=&P=1696
>From the second one on, sample sentences were provided:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0204a&L=conlang&F=&S=&P=24608
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (8)
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5e. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:05 pm (PDT)
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Dear fellow conlangers!
>
> Recently, I was thinking of reviving the weekly vocab. And the first
> step of continuation is, as we all know from TV, the rerun.
>
> So I was thinking of posting automatically every week one of the old
> weekly vocabs that currently sleep in the archives. It is currently
> fodder for more than half a year of work, I think (there are > 30
> posts IIRC).
Good idea.
>
> Whenever someone comes up with a new set of words, I will happily
> enqueue it into the automatical weekly posting mechanism...
OK!! Here are 10 words, and some suggested sentences, culled from my Kash
to-do list:
1. committee
2. bell-tower (or just _tower_)
The committee has(have) decided to erect a (bell-)tower.
3. exactly
It will be exactly 73 metres [or suitable equivalent] tall.
4. crane/derrick
5. bell(s)
They will need a crane to lift the bell(s) into place.
6. net (for fishing)
The fishermen have lost their nets.
7. napkin
The [ethnic slur of your choice] people eat with their fingers and do not
use napkins.
8. rummage around/poke around in with the finger
They just rummage around in the pot with their fingers
9. bankrupt
10. toothpaste/toothpowder/dentifrice (or appropriate material)
The king is bankrupt. He can't even afford to buy toothpaste.
;-))))))
Messages in this topic (8)
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5f. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:55 pm (PDT)
Hi!
Roger Mills writes:
> Henrik Theiling wrote:
>...
> > Whenever someone comes up with a new set of words, I will happily
> > enqueue it into the automatical weekly posting mechanism...
>
> OK!! Here are 10 words, and some suggested sentences, culled from my Kash
> to-do list:
Wait, wait!
Please send further lists to me *privately*. I'll enqueue them, and
then send them to the list weekly. The whole idea is to have
something *regular* and in *small chunks*.
Anyway, let's simply start with Roger's list. :-)
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (8)
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5g. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
Posted by: "Ph.D." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:52 pm (PDT)
Roger Mills wrote:
>
> 7. napkin
> The [ethnic slur of your choice] people eat with their
> fingers and do not use napkins.
Doesn't "napkin" normally mean "diaper" in the U.K.?
(and is usually shortened to "nappie"? There used to
be a radio commercial here in USA in which Napoleon's
wife calls him "Nappie." I doubt many Americans got
that joke.)
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (8)
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5h. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
Posted by: "Tim May" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:17 pm (PDT)
Ph.D. wrote at 2006-08-20 18:42:41 (-0400)
> Roger Mills wrote:
> >
> > 7. napkin
> > The [ethnic slur of your choice] people eat with their
> > fingers and do not use napkins.
>
>
> Doesn't "napkin" normally mean "diaper" in the U.K.?
>
No, it's always "nappy". Until you mentioned it, I wasn't even aware
there was an etymological connection. I'd be _very_ surprised if
someone used "napkin" to mean "diaper".
Messages in this topic (8)
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6a. Re: Nimrina phonology
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:16 am (PDT)
Herman Miller skrev:
> Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
>>> I wóuld like to get [K\] involved somehow. Voiced stops have
>>> fricative allophones, as in /dmázi/ [Dma:z_ji] "blue-green".
>>> Possibly /nidlu/ "violet" could be [n_jidK\u]. Or another
>>> possibility could be lengthened /l/ between vowels.
>>
>> Maybe both /dl/ > [Dl] > [K\] *and* [l:] > [K\]. Again the kind of
>> thing that would happen in a natlang. BTW if you have *G > zero,
>> you can have the fricative allophone of /g/ also be zero. Cf.
>> Welsh where *G > zero but /w/v/D/ are preserved. Also modern
>> Danish which in the course of the last century merged its [G]
>> allophone of /g/ with /j/ or the [w] allophone of /v/ depending on
>> the backness of the preceding vowel, much like in Old English as I
>> wrote of yesterday.
>
> I was thinking I already had /dl/ > [K\] in one of my languages, but
> I can't find it, and there's no reason not to reuse it even if I do.
> What I might be remembering is /tl/ > [K] in Zharranh.
I know the feeling, though I have mixed feelings about it.
On the one hand I don't want to repeat myself, but OTOH
a real-world language wouldn't go out of its way to avoid
being dissimilar to another language -- except maybe for
some sociolinguistic reasons in a language contact situation.
Rather a phonetic simplification is likely to happen in many
unrelated languages.
> But certainly with [D] as an allophone of /d/ in cases like /dm/,
> /dr/, the /dl/ > [Dl] > [K\:] development would make sense.
FWIW Zulu orthography uses |dl| for [K\]. I don't know
whether it reflects a phonological or historical fact, or
merely exploits a hole in the phonotactics.
See <http://www.omniglot.com/writing/zulu.htm>.
> Phonemically, maybe the best way to represent it is /l:/ (or /ll/).
Or maybe it still is /dl/! BTW if Nimrína is
supposed in Scandinavia -- *here* or somewhere
*else* -- it might be a good touch to have an
[r`] allophone of /l/, since [r`] for historical
reasons functions as an allophone of /l/ in many
Swedish and Norwegian dialects. At some point
/rD/ became [r`], and at some later point this
/r`/ and /l/ merged in some or all positions,
leaving [r`] as the *only* allophone of /l/ in
many dialects. (I myself have for some reason
[r`] for /l/ only after labials, and [d`] for
*/rD/!) The putative presence in Scandinavia of
a language without an r/l distinction may serve
to 'explain' these strange historical mergers! :-)
As for the use of doubling to indicate length in
phone*ic transcription it does for some reason seem
common to use length marks for vowels but doubling
for consonants. For languages like Swedish and
Italian this actually makes sense phonemically, and
historically also for other Germanic languages
including English, where stressed vowels were long
in open syllables but short in closed syllables.
However you mentioned the other day that since
Nimrína has many vowel combinations it might make
sense to use doubling for long vowels it would
seem to make sense to use doubling also for
consonants, but ultimately it may depend on
whether long consonants are underlyingly to
be seen as clusters, or if they are the result
of prosodic processes.
>> In particular there seems to be males of the kindred in Norway,
>> which is never the case in Sweden, where huldran is more of a
>> female demon luring horny young men to perish in the woods. On the
>> whole the Norwegian huldre shows herself to be more domesticable,
>> having a cow rather than fox tail and all! :-)
>
> Considering the variety of human hair color, length, curliness and so
> on, there are probably similar variations in tail features. Maybe
> the cow-tailed huldre speak a distantly related language.
The differences between the Norwegian and Swedish
descriptions suggest to me one agrarian cow-tailed
(sub)species and one fox-tailed hunter-gatherer
(sub)species.
> The absence of males in Swedish legend could simply be a result of
> the rarity of encountering one in the first place.
Yes, or maybe there is greater morphological difference
between the sexes in huldrer than in humans, e.g. the
males may be wholly fur-coated while the females are
partially naked and so more human-like. This may
cause humans not to recognize that they are the same
species. It might also mean that while the females
appear sexually enticing to humans the males don't,
and are perhaps not perceived as human-like at all.
More on that below.
>> It should be noted that there are variants of the hollow back where
>> the back looks like bark or is hairy, which are perhaps easier to
>> make biological sense of (bark = coarse or gray skin). Especially
>> a species which is naked in the face and the front/under side of
>> the torso but hairy otherwise seems like a biological possibility.
>
> Yes, how would they stand upright with a hollow back? I like the idea
> of the rough or hairy back better. It could be both hairy and look
> like bark, I guess -- a coloration pattern in the hair.
In "The Apple War" they went for the rotten bark version,
complete with crawling bugs. Probably a technical issue,
since that was long before computer generated images.
I can't help think of images I've seen of American Indians
wearing wolf skins with the wolf's head as a hood and the
tail hanging down their back. In Norse tradition there is
the _úlfheðinn_, a berserk in hairy wolfskin jacket. There
are archeological finds depicting such figures, looking
like men with wolfs head and tail(*). Maybe this is the male
of the species. The thought that the male of the species
is behind the belief in werewolves would not be too great
a leap! There is _huldumaðr_ 'cairn-troll' in my Old Norse
to Norwegian dictionary, but that would seem to relate
primarily to the Irish-influenced Icelandic huldufólk.
>> What d you think of the idea that _huld(r)a_ is an attempt to adapt
>> a Nimrína word [hudK\a]? :-).
>>
>> FYI all of _huldra/huldre/huldu/_ are derivable from the past
>> participle of the Old Norse verb _hylja_ 'conceal', but it seems
>> strange that the genitive plural _huldra_ should prevail as a base
>> form in Swedish and Norwegian.
>
> I don't think that's a good idea if the Icelandic huldufólk are
> something else entirely. I guess it's probably not likely that humans
> know what the Nimrína speakers call themselves in any case.
True. Also the Norse/Germanic etymology of the word is wholly
transparent. See <http://www.northvegr.org/vigfusson/292.php>
(_HULD_ and the following entries) and
<http://www.northvegr.org/vigfusson/304.php> (hylja) for the
relevant dictionary entries.
In the modern languages Swedish has _huldra, pl. huldror_,
which is exclusively feminine, while Norwegian has two
alternative singulars _huldre, pl. huldrer_ and _hulder,
pl. huldre(r)_; while _hulder_ would look like a
masculine it in fact designates the female being. As I
said these modern forms derive from the genitive plural
(which was the same for all geneders) of _huliðr_, the
past participle of _hylja_. Presumably the reason for
this development is the fact that the genitive plural
was common as the first component in compounds.
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
"Maybe" is a strange word. When mum or dad says it
it means "yes", but when my big brothers say it it
means "no"!
(Philip Jonsson jr, age 7)
Messages in this topic (14)
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6b. Re: Nimrina phonology
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:39 am (PDT)
Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> Or maybe it still is /dl/! BTW if Nimrína is
> supposed in Scandinavia -- *here* or somewhere
> *else* -- it might be a good touch to have an
> [r`] allophone of /l/, since [r`] for historical
> reasons functions as an allophone of /l/ in many
> Swedish and Norwegian dialects. At some point
> /rD/ became [r`], and at some later point this
> /r`/ and /l/ merged in some or all positions,
> leaving [r`] as the *only* allophone of /l/ in
> many dialects. (I myself have for some reason
> [r`] for /l/ only after labials, and [d`] for
> */rD/!) The putative presence in Scandinavia of
> a language without an r/l distinction may serve
> to 'explain' these strange historical mergers! :-)
In that case, I could have [r`] in place of [4] as the intervocalic
allophone of /l/. Or it could vary depending on the vowels. I seem to be
having a little difficulty pronouncing "tilin" (small) as [t_jir`in].
But pronouncing "hlýlu" (leaf) as [K1:r`u] or "zelen" (feather) as
[zEr`En] seems easier.
>> The absence of males in Swedish legend could simply be a result of
>> the rarity of encountering one in the first place.
>
> Yes, or maybe there is greater morphological difference
> between the sexes in huldrer than in humans, e.g. the
> males may be wholly fur-coated while the females are
> partially naked and so more human-like. This may
> cause humans not to recognize that they are the same
> species. It might also mean that while the females
> appear sexually enticing to humans the males don't,
> and are perhaps not perceived as human-like at all.
> More on that below.
Interesting idea, but I was thinking more of people who could pass
themselves off as human (if they wear clothing that hides their tails).
Maybe a small group of them could have come across the Atlantic with the
other Scandinavian immigrants to the US.
> I can't help think of images I've seen of American Indians
> wearing wolf skins with the wolf's head as a hood and the
> tail hanging down their back. In Norse tradition there is
> the _úlfheðinn_, a berserk in hairy wolfskin jacket. There
> are archeological finds depicting such figures, looking
> like men with wolfs head and tail(*). Maybe this is the male
> of the species. The thought that the male of the species
> is behind the belief in werewolves would not be too great
> a leap! There is _huldumaðr_ 'cairn-troll' in my Old Norse
> to Norwegian dictionary, but that would seem to relate
> primarily to the Irish-influenced Icelandic huldufólk.
But this brings up another possibility; they may have had populations in
both continents from way back in the Atlantean days (if I go with the
idea that they're related to the Atlanteans).
Messages in this topic (14)
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________________________________________________________________________
7a. OT: WorldCon
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:44 pm (PDT)
Is anyone attending LAConIV in Anaheim this year? I don't know if there are
any conlang panels on the program -- I had trouble reading the program.
Just thought I'd ask just in case I attend.*
Jeff
* I still haven't found a flight yet from Miami to Anaheim. And I'm not
sure I can pay without a credit card anyway.
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
7b. Re: OT: WorldCon
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:34 pm (PDT)
On 8/20/06, Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is anyone attending LAConIV in Anaheim this year? I don't know if there are
> any conlang panels on the program -- I had trouble reading the program.
> Just thought I'd ask just in case I attend.*
I'll be there.
-S
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.terjemar.net
Messages in this topic (2)
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