There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1)
From: Elliott Lash
1b. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1)
From: caeruleancentaur
1c. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1)
From: Elliott Lash
1d. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1)
From: caeruleancentaur
2. Re: Serial Verb Constructions With "Kill" (was: THEORY: "Finite Verb
From: Eldin Raigmore
3a. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
From: Herman Miller
3b. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
From: Henrik Theiling
3c. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
From: Herman Miller
Messages
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1a. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1)
Posted by: "Elliott Lash" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:50 pm (PDT)
Henrik,
oops! you are correct of course. I wonder if there
were Latin authors who occasionally used such a
graecism?
-Elliott
--- Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Elliott Lash writes:
> > Is it not a rule of Latin grammar that Neuter
> Plurals
> > can be used with a singular verb, since the -a
> comes
> > from a collective plural marker....perhaps related
> to
> > the feminine singular nominative -a.
> >
> > -Elliott
> >
> > --- caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > > Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Fiat verba!
> > >
> > > Should that not be "fiant verba"?
> > >
> > > Charlie
>
> Well, I think it was a graecism. :-P
>
> No, I just did not pay attention, sorry. I think
> Greek has the type
> of agreement Elliott describes, but I don't know
> whether it was found
> in Latin. I should probably correct the line for
> the next post on
> next Friday then.
>
> **Henrik
>
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Messages in this topic (8)
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1b. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1)
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:25 pm (PDT)
>> Elliott Lash wrote:
>> Is it not a rule of Latin grammar that Neuter Plurals
>> can be used with a singular verb, since the -a comes
>> from a collective plural marker....perhaps related to
>> the feminine singular nominative -a.
> Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No, I just did not pay attention, sorry. I think Greek has the
> type of agreement Elliott describes, but I don't know whether it
> was found in Latin. I should probably correct the line for the
> next post on next Friday then.
I did some googling (it took me a while) but finally found a site
that confirms what Elliott said. My hasty mistake. No need to
correct the line, Henrik.
However, I do wonder if this was an obligatory agreement or if
either singular or plural could be used.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (8)
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1c. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1)
Posted by: "Elliott Lash" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:40 pm (PDT)
Charlie,
Which site was that, because googled too and it
confirmed what Henrik said ... making me doubt myself.
I'd love to be confirmed...
-Elliott
--- caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >> Elliott Lash wrote:
>
> >> Is it not a rule of Latin grammar that Neuter
> Plurals
> >> can be used with a singular verb, since the -a
> comes
> >> from a collective plural marker....perhaps
> related to
> >> the feminine singular nominative -a.
>
> > Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > No, I just did not pay attention, sorry. I think
> Greek has the
> > type of agreement Elliott describes, but I don't
> know whether it
> > was found in Latin. I should probably correct the
> line for the
> > next post on next Friday then.
>
> I did some googling (it took me a while) but finally
> found a site
> that confirms what Elliott said. My hasty mistake.
> No need to
> correct the line, Henrik.
>
> However, I do wonder if this was an obligatory
> agreement or if
> either singular or plural could be used.
>
> Charlie
>
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Messages in this topic (8)
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1d. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1)
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:02 pm (PDT)
> Elliott Lash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Charlie,
> Which site was that, because googled too and it
> confirmed what Henrik said ... making me doubt myself.
> I'd love to be confirmed...
Google for Re:Plural Nouns.
There's a long address. It begins www.techwr-l.....
On second glance it doesn't seem to be that authoritative.
What is the site that you found?
Charlie
Messages in this topic (8)
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2. Re: Serial Verb Constructions With "Kill" (was: THEORY: "Finite Verb
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:26 am (PDT)
Please forgive me for taking so long to respond.
My guess is that I forgot to because your contributions don't show up on
the Yahoo! mirror-site. But I'm not sure.
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:41:42 +0200, taliesin the storyteller <taliesin-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>*Eldin Raigmore said on 2006-08-16 01:51:13 +0200
>>On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 00:13:02 +0200, taliesin the storyteller <taliesin-
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>jehan Seva kirja kru ilisiaT
>>>
>>>This is, obviously :), an SVC: Jehan go cut kill Ilisi.
>>>S is [S], T is [T], aT marks objects
>>
>>I find it interesting that your first example of a serial verb
>>construction uses a verb meaning "kill" as part of the series.
>
>As I say later, I still have *very* few transitive verbs. "kirja" was
>originally just used for how a boat cuts through waves.
>
>>Is "Jehan" the Taruven equivalent of "Jack", by any chance?
>
>The entire set of words deriving from hebrew Jochanan actually: so:
>John, Joe, Johnny, Jane, Jean, Joan, Anne, Hannah, Sean, Ian, Jack etc.
I knew Anne and Hannah were related to each other, but I didn't know they
were related to Jochanan.
Also I usually think of Joe as related to Joseph rather than to Jochanan.
(The rest of those names were a group to me already.)
>It's my default "need a name for examples"-name right now.
Like "Devadatta" in Sanskrit?
>>And what's the difference, if any, between the Taruven for "cut" and the
>>Taruven for "rip"?
>
>Cut needs an (implied) instrument. Rip will only be done without an
>implement (cannot take an NP marked for instrumental).
Makes sense.
>>>jehan Seva saies, kiri ilisiaT ao kru iaT
>>>
>>>means "Jehan go to.river, I/we cut Ilisi and.then I/we kill him/her"
>>>
>>>This is ambiguous btw: did I/we kill Ilisi or Jehan? It might be that
>>>there is also a marker for same object but I haven't discovered one so
>>>far.
>>
>>I assume you mean "I haven't discovered a 'SameObject vs DifferentObject'
>>morphology in Taruven so far."
>
>Yep. Btw, the "ao" implies that the clause to the right happened at the
>same time or later than the clause to the right. "ao" only conjoins
>clauses.
Interesting. (And I'm glad I apparently understood it.)
>>Remind me, please, what the differences are between Types I, II, III,
>>and IV of object-incorporation?
>
>Most people just differ between type I and type not-I, collapsing II,
>III and IV, but I'll try:
>
>I: "Lexical compounding". Lexicalized incorporation. The verb is
> modified by a constituent and decreases in valency by 1. Transitive
> -> Intransitive. Many languages used to have this and now only have
> frozen forms left, hence lexicalized.
>II: "Manipulation of case". Valency not decreased, the incorporated
> constituent is replaced by another constituent that changes in case.
> This could maybe be used for passivization: incorporate the subject
> and change the prior object into the (syntactic) subject.
>III: "Manipulation of discourse". The incorporated constituent serves as
> background information. No change in valency.
>IV: "Classificatory". The incorporated constituent shows the class of
> the NP, no change in valency.
>
>I recommend this survey:
>http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pycha/2006%20LSA%20Handout%20final.pdf
Thanks. I've looked it up and read the first two pages; I've printed it
out and will finish reading it later.
>>It just seems natural to use "cut kill" as a serial verb construction,
>>especially if your subject is named Jack. I suppose if he were named
>>Maxwell, you'd use a "hit kill" SVC.
>
>Jack the Ripper I have heard of, who's Maxwell?
Look for instance at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_Silver_Hammer
http://www.stevesbeatles.com/songs/maxwells_silver_hammer.asp
(In this case the (first) victim's name was Joan.)
>Anyway, I still don't have an acceptable word for "hit".
>t.
>=========================================================================
Thanks.
-----
eldin
Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:56 pm (PDT)
Roger Mills wrote:
> OK!! Here are 10 words, and some suggested sentences, culled from my Kash
> to-do list:
>
> 1. committee
Minza: vezgi "be in charge of"
-kai "group"
vezgikai "committee"
> 2. bell-tower (or just _tower_)
Minza: pazár "tower"
> The committee has(have) decided to erect a (bell-)tower.
Minza: Lišuonu vezgikai en napadi pazár čiňat.
li -šuon -u vezgikai -Ø en na -pad -i pazár-Ø čiň -at
3p.ABS-decide-PF committee-ABS that CAUS-stand-SUBJ tower-ABS bell-GEN
ABS = absolutive
PF = perfective
CAUS = causative
SUBJ = subjunctive
GEN = genitive
> 3. exactly
Minza: kepi "exact, precise"
> It will be exactly 73 metres [or suitable equivalent] tall.
Minza: Padu žu mevivat kiexaski ai miči metèx kepi.
pad -u žu meviva-t kiexaski ai miči metèx kepi
stand-PF future height-GEN seventy and three meter exact
> 4. crane/derrick
Minza: zeičaltan, lit. "big arm machine"
> 5. bell(s)
Minza: čiň
> They will need a crane to lift the bell(s) into place.
Liseiru žu dori zeičaltan yn viži či taňgamu čiň(i).
li -seir-u žu dor-i zeičaltan-Ø yn viž -i či
3p.ABS-need-PF fut. use-INF crane -ABS in.order.to lift-INF into
taňga-mu čiň -i
place-LOC bell-PL
INF: infinitive
LOC: locative
Hmm, it looks like I really need to work on the Minza vocabulary. I keep
running across really basic words like "lift" that are missing...
Messages in this topic (18)
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3b. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:46 pm (PDT)
Hi!
Herman Miller writes:
>...
> Hmm, it looks like I really need to work on the Minza vocabulary. I
> keep running across really basic words like "lift" that are missing...
What's your current lexicon size? I mean, it's a familiar feeling to
me to find that sometihng *really* basic is missing. :-/
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (18)
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3c. Re: Weekly vocab revival?
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:32 pm (PDT)
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Herman Miller writes:
>> ...
>> Hmm, it looks like I really need to work on the Minza vocabulary. I
>> keep running across really basic words like "lift" that are missing...
>
> What's your current lexicon size? I mean, it's a familiar feeling to
> me to find that sometihng *really* basic is missing. :-/
Somewhere around 1500 entries (including compounds and proper names). I
wonder if there's any pattern to the kinds of words that tend to get
overlooked (verbs for instance)? I guess the only way to really get them
all is to systematically go through the dictionary, or do lots of
translations. As a side comment, one of the reasons I started the Tiki
project (or the vocabulary project that Tiki grew out of, at least) was
to come up with a list of basic words as a guide for starting new
languages, but "lift" was missing from that list also!
Messages in this topic (18)
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