There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1)
From: Carsten Becker
2. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.2 (repost #1)
From: Carsten Becker
3. Re: Vertical script (was: UTF-8 support in *nix terminals)
From: Remi Villatel
4. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
From: Ph.D.
5a. Nimrina colors updated
From: Herman Miller
5b. Re: Nimrina colors updated
From: Javier BF
5c. Re: Nimrina colors updated
From: Herman Miller
6a. Re: Lexicon counting (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1...)
From: Feaelin Moilar
6b. Re: Lexicon counting (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1...)
From: H. S. Teoh
6c. Re: Lexicon counting
From: Herman Miller
7. Re: Demotion of Pluto
From: Feaelin Moilar
8a. Re: Kalusa conlang in review - is it working?
From: Feaelin Moilar
8b. Re: Kalusa conlang in review - is it working?
From: Iain E. Davis
8c. Re: Kalusa conlang in review - is it working?
From: Gary Shannon
9. Re: Looking for a term
From: Scotto Hlad
Messages
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1. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1)
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 4:37 am (PDT)
From: "Henrik Theiling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 5:02 AM
>> 1. birch (the tree)
mehiraka (lit. "white tree" -- birches are not native to
SW-Kataytania)
>> 2. werewolf / lycanthrope of some variety
ayvengaryo (lit. "wolf-man")
>> 3. to save (money)
tapiao dayrin (lit. "to put aside")
>> 4. to conquer
pisao
>> 5. motif
gebisan (lit. "picture")
> - ribbon tree, n.
> deciduous New Zealand tree whose inner bark yields a
> strong fiber that resembles
> flax and is called New Zealand cotton
Incidentally, I thought about my conpeople using tree fibres
(raffia or something) to produce clothing a while ago. So
this is the ideal possiblity to give the tree that is used
for it a name!
mehimitrang (lit. "fibre/hair tree")
> - concuss, v.
> shake violently
too difficult (to shake = pridao, though)
That makes 4 new words and 1 second meaning, i.e. 1394
dictionary so far.
Cheers,
Carsten
--
"Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Palayena, Ravikan 16, 2315 ya 13:51:13 pd
Messages in this topic (16)
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2. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.2 (repost #1)
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 4:41 am (PDT)
From: "Henrik Theiling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 5:02 AM
>> 1. forest
vinim
>> 2. mushroom (edible)
tulang
>> 3. to look for something
balangao (to search)
>> 4. To find something after searching for it
sungao
>> 5. base, bottom
avan
>> 6. moss
itray
>> 7. basket, bag
kasu, ladang
>> 8. pine needles, leaves of a conifer
singay (< singaya, lit. "stitcher")
>> 9. each
-en (every)
>> 10. always
tadayen
>> 1. The forest is in that direction. (or "over there",
>> said while
>> pointing to it)
Vinimreng ada-bukanea.
Forest.A that-direction.LOC
>> 2. I like mushrooms very much!
Le vatyayang tulangyeon kangan!
TRG=P like.1s.A mushroom.PL.TRG *very*_much
>> 3. I often go searching for mushrooms in the forest.
Ang balangasayin komila tulangyeley vinimea.
TRG=A search.HABIT.1s.TRG often muchroom.PL.P forest.LOC
>> 4. She kept the mushroom that I tripped over.
that means?
>> 5. At the base of which tree did you find that
>> mushroom?
Eyran elinam mehirea le sungevang ada-tulangon?
Under which tree.LOC TRG=P find.2s.A that-mushroom.TRG
>> 6. There is no moss on the base of that tree.
Ya yomoyarareng itrayley avan ada-mehirin.
TRG=LOC exist.NEG.3s-inani.A moss.P at_bottom_of
that-tree.TRG
>> 7. Put the mushroom in the basket.
Tapiu tulangley kasuea.
Put.IMP mushroom.P basket.LOC
>> 8. These baskets, the handles of which are made of
>> pine needles, are useful.
Eda-kasuyereng numerambay, sondamyeley sirengena singayena
mehisingayena.
This-basket.PL.A A.useful, handle.PL.P REL.A.GEN
needle.PL.GEN needle-tree.GEN
>> 9. That is the woman to whom I give each of the
>> mushrooms.
Adanyang envanaris si ang ilayin eda-tulangyenley.
That.A woman.P REL TRG=A give.1s.TRG
this-mushroom.PL.every.P
>> 10. I always go looking for mushrooms is the forest
>> through which we
>> walked today.
That should have been "in the forest", no?
Ya balangasayang tulangyeley kong vinimin manga luga siya
lampaynang davano.
TRG=LOC search.HABIT.1s.A mushroom.PL.P inside_of forest.TRG
through REL.LOC walk.1p.A today
('manga luga' = through; 'luga' itself means 'among,
between', 'manga' indicates motion from one place to another
by means of the following preposition)
> - elucidation, n.
> an act of explaining that serves to clear up and cast
> light on
taboyisao (lit. "to clarify")
> - snap at, v.
> bite off with a quick bite; "The dog snapped off a
> piece of cloth from the
> intruder's pants"
bitogao mangasara (lit. "to tear away/off")
And another 9 new words, that makes 1401 entries in the
dictionary. The sentences were really more difficult than
the words themselves.
Yours,
Carsten
--
"Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Palayena, Ravikan 16, 2315 ya 15:08:25 pd
Messages in this topic (7)
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3. Re: Vertical script (was: UTF-8 support in *nix terminals)
Posted by: "Remi Villatel" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 7:35 am (PDT)
On Saturday 02 September 2006 00:02, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> Speaking of fonts, has anyone experimented with purely vertical writing
> systems? (I.e., one where you simply *cannot* write horizontally without
> severely crippling the system.) Even better, has anyone gotten vertical
> writing to actually *work* in an application, say your browser?
Two of the Shaquelingua's scripts are vertical: an alphabetical one and a
syllabical one. So far, I have a page only for the vertical alphabet:
http://home.tele2.fr/mxls/cakesar/vert-alpha.html
It needs improvement but you got the general idea.
Just for fun I also drew an ornamental syllabary:
http://home.tele2.fr/mxls/images/bli/syllabary.png
It's name is /BlitayI/ [b4itaHi]:
http://home.tele2.fr/mxls/images/bli/blitayi.png
In action, it looks like this:
http://home.tele2.fr/mxls/images/bli/story.png
So far, I haven't seen any application supporting vertical scripts natively.
The trick I used was to designed the font as an horizontal one and, in the
DTP program, I just turned the text frame 1/4 of turn to the right so the
content appears as intended. The DTP program I use even allows me to type
vertically. That's disturbing... but fun!
That works right for the shaquean vertical scripts because the lines of text
go from right to left. To do more, I guess a trip to Japan might be the
solution. ;-)
/xa zato satxi./ [Za: zatO sa.tCi] (= There will be speech again.)
--
==================
Remi Villatel
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
==================
Messages in this topic (25)
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4. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
Posted by: "Ph.D." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 12:53 pm (PDT)
Henrik Theiling wrote:
>
> BTW, one recent decision was about the 'leg'.
> VL '*gamba' from Gaulish, too, and I did not like
> the 'perna' that is used in Sp. and Port. Now Þrjótrunn
> is the only (known) language (yet) which uses 'cru:s'
> (shank) for 'leg', which becomes 'krýr'.
Of course, Esperanto has "kruro" for "leg."
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Nimrina colors updated
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 2:11 pm (PDT)
I haven't made much progress with Nimrina yet -- I sort of got
sidetracked reorganizing the color chart.
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/png/nimrina-colors.png
Unlike some of the other charts (Tirelat, Lindiga, Minza) I haven't made
any attempt to line up complementary colors opposite each other.
Instead, this chart is based on the idea of a red-green axis and a
yellow-blue axis, with colors spaced as equally as possible around the
circle. So every day I open the color chart and want to move the colors
around again. I tried coming up with some more quantifiable way to pick
these colors, but the results ended up worse. So I finally just decided
to pick a set of colors and call it the "official" Nimrina color set. Of
course, these are just the prototypical colors for each of these color
words; each word represents a range of possible colors.
Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Nimrina colors updated
Posted by: "Javier BF" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 6:10 pm (PDT)
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 15:58:02 -0500, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I haven't made much progress with Nimrina yet -- I sort of got
>sidetracked reorganizing the color chart.
>
>http://www.io.com/~hmiller/png/nimrina-colors.png
>
>Unlike some of the other charts (Tirelat, Lindiga, Minza) I haven't made
>any attempt to line up complementary colors opposite each other.
>Instead, this chart is based on the idea of a red-green axis and a
>yellow-blue axis, with colors spaced as equally as possible around the
>circle.
I don't see why you should have to line up "complementary" colors opposite
each other. That arrangement is based on the most unintuitive part of the
way human vision works (the tristimulus originated at the cones, which does
not reach our brains in that form). It's only useful if you are dealing with
pigment or light mixes, while it's very misleading if you want to describe
how colors relate to each other _perceptually_ (I'd even say the ubiquitous
and almost exclusive use of this kind of arrangement in the teaching of
color theory is detrimental to clear thinking, in that it alienates people
from the true nature of color perceptions as experienced at the brain
level). OTOH, the red-green and yellow-blue axes deal with the kind of color
data that our visual cortex directly works with (the elementary color
percepts), and arranging them opposite each other shows the actual way our
brain organizes color perception.
>So every day I open the color chart and want to move the colors
>around again. I tried coming up with some more quantifiable way to pick
>these colors, but the results ended up worse.
What do you mean by "quantifiable way" to pick the colors?
You could define colors in terms of proportions between its percept
components. Make a chart with combinations for easy proportions; for
example, those that can be expressed on a pie chart divided in twelve
sectors (i.e. 30 degrees each, like those between the hours on a clock
face), which include those based on halves, thirds and quarters, like 100%,
75%/25%, 66.6%/33.3%, 50%/50%, 50%/25%/25%, 33.3%/33.3%/33.3% and
25%/25%/25%/25%. Don't forget some other less elementary proportion, so as
to include colors with only a tinge of some percept; for example, one
twelfth (91.6%) of red diluted into eleven twelfths (8.3%) of white, which
would give a shade of pastel pink (as a side note, it's far easier to notate
thirds, sixths and twelfths as percentages if you use duodecimal). I
recommend you order the chart both by proportions and by type of color:
Saturated colors: entirely chromatic (the hue wheel) or entirely achromatic
(the achromatic scale)
1 percept (100%)
- white/black (pure achromatic)
- yellow/blue/red/green (unary hue)
2 percepts (75%/25%, 66%/33%, 50%/50%, etc.)
- white + black (gray scale)
- yellow/blue + red/green (binary hue; e.g., orange, purple)
Insaturated colors: achromatic and chromatic parts mixed (the colors filling
the space between the hue wheel and the achromatic scale)
- white/black + yellow/blue/red/green (light/dark unary hue; e.g., maroon, navy)
3 percepts (50%/25%/25%, 33%/33%/33%, etc.)
- white + black + yellow/blue/red/green (grayish unary hue; e.g., grayblue)
- white/black + yellow/blue + red/green (light/dark binary hue; e.g., peach,
teal)
4 percepts (25%/25%/25%/25%, etc.)
white + black + yellow/blue + red/green (grayish binary hue; e.g., taupe)
Then pick up a subset of colors from there, taking into account that some
percepts are more salient than others (especially red, which is why brown,
orange, purple or pink --all of them red-based-- are more frequently
encountered as basic colors than non-reddish colors like turquoise or azure).
Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Nimrina colors updated
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 8:26 pm (PDT)
Javier BF wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 15:58:02 -0500, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> So every day I open the color chart and want to move the colors
>> around again. I tried coming up with some more quantifiable way to pick
>> these colors, but the results ended up worse.
>
>
> What do you mean by "quantifiable way" to pick the colors?
Some kind of scale that would allow me to specify a color as some
arbitrary fraction of the distance between two of the four main colors
(red and yellow, for instance), such that any step of the same size on
the scale would be perceived as about the same difference in hue. Having
a standard definition for the four basic colors would also be nice. I
think I've got the basic colors pretty close to where I want them to be,
but there's still some room for adjustment. Yellow seems closer to green
than any of the other basic colors are to each other, but if I push
yallow and green apart much further, the yellow starts to have more of
an orange hue to it and the green starts looking bluish.
The Lindiga color scale, in contrast, is based on the "H" of the HSL or
HSV in a typical paint program, which is convenient but artificial. It
happens to be a pretty good system for the most part, but due to the
nonlinear scale (gamma correction and other factors), colors with
different amounts of saturation can appear to be different hues even if
the "H" is the same. The fact that 10 equally spaced hues happens to hit
pretty close to red, yellow, and green (along with two hues in the
"blue" range) is really more luck than anything.
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/png/lindiga-colors.png
Lindiga also has a lightness scale which is based on the "Y" of YIQ or
YUV. I didn't come up with any standard scale for saturation.
Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Lexicon counting (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1...)
Posted by: "Feaelin Moilar" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 7:26 pm (PDT)
> This has boosted the lexicon to 267 entries.
I've occasionally wondered and only now been motivated to ask, when one
counts the entries, what do you count? I'm presuming only one form of the
word (in the situation of conjugation, declensions, and the like) and
myself I would exclude an whole group of entries in my data that are
"famous names".
Since the original reason I tinkered with a conlang was to give a
consistent feel to the fictional names I was using, early on, 'famous
names' made up most of the entries. Now, the other entries represent about
4/5th's of my data, and the names are the rest. :)
Iain/Feaelin
Messages in this topic (16)
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6b. Re: Lexicon counting (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1...)
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 7:57 pm (PDT)
On Sun, Sep 03, 2006 at 09:07:53PM -0500, Feaelin Moilar wrote:
> > This has boosted the lexicon to 267 entries.
>
> I've occasionally wondered and only now been motivated to ask, when
> one counts the entries, what do you count? I'm presuming only one form
> of the word (in the situation of conjugation, declensions, and the
> like) and myself I would exclude an whole group of entries in my data
> that are "famous names".
[...]
I've asked the same question before. The Tatari Faran lexicon has
several 'common proper noun' entries for common native names, as well as
irregular word forms whose root form isn't straightforward. There are
also some phrases for common expressions. I recognized this early on,
and made my lexicon tool omit these entries from the official lexicon
entry count.
However, a trickier problem remains with the TF complements: a class of
words that serve as (mandatory) clause terminators and predicate
reinforcers. Although they have English glosses, they are (almost)
never taken literally, being there only to add nuance and overtones.
Should they be counted as "real entries" or not? Every verb and
adjective is paired with one or more complements (which may or may not
be unique across verbs/adjectives). As of this writing, there are 201
unique complements, 191 verbs, and 82 adjectives. Many pairings are
unique, and so the complements don't really add to what can be expressed
in the language. OTOH, they do add nuance, esp. in non-unique pairs
where varying the complement gives different nuances to the same clause.
If you include them, it gives a false impression of how much can be
expressed in TF, since it's really equivalent to a much smaller language
without complements. But you can't completely omit them either, since
they *are* an integral part of TF's vocabulary.
[...]
> Since the original reason I tinkered with a conlang was to give a
> consistent feel to the fictional names I was using, early on, 'famous
> names' made up most of the entries. Now, the other entries represent
> about 4/5th's of my data, and the names are the rest. :)
Nice. The TF lexicon doesn't have that many proper names. And it seems
that conventions differ in natlang dictionaries: for example, many
English dictionaries don't list common proper names, but some do list
names of well-known people (usually historial or significant in some
other way). Some dictionaries may even have different editions that
include/exclude these entries.
So it seems the jury is out on this one.
T
--
Why ask rhetorical questions? -- JC
Messages in this topic (16)
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6c. Re: Lexicon counting
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 8:36 pm (PDT)
Feaelin Moilar wrote:
>> This has boosted the lexicon to 267 entries.
>
> I've occasionally wondered and only now been motivated to ask, when one
> counts the entries, what do you count? I'm presuming only one form of the
> word (in the situation of conjugation, declensions, and the like) and
> myself I would exclude an whole group of entries in my data that are
> "famous names".
>
> Since the original reason I tinkered with a conlang was to give a
> consistent feel to the fictional names I was using, early on, 'famous
> names' made up most of the entries. Now, the other entries represent about
> 4/5th's of my data, and the names are the rest. :)
>
> Iain/Feaelin
I typically count paragraph breaks in the (Language)-English index. This
usually gives a pretty good approximation: any entries closely enough
related to be listed on the same line (such as plural forms) will show
up as a single entry, but compounds listed on separate lines will count
as distinct entries.
Messages in this topic (16)
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7. Re: Demotion of Pluto
Posted by: "Feaelin Moilar" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 7:28 pm (PDT)
> caeruleancentaur writes:
>...
> 1. sénesântus; changed to sûûlas, sun-day
> 2. mênas
> 2. aatêras
> 3. nêêras
> 4. sêêgïas
> 5. pêrcüas
> 6. pûûsas
>...
As a non-Terran world, they don't line up precisely, but this is close
enough. A six day week, so no real equivalent to sunday. I've not
considered planets (or constellations, for that matter), I should get
around to it someday!
> English Taraitola
> -------------------------
> Saturday Homdarva
> Monday Plamdarva
> Tuesday Nomdarva
> Wednesday Paratdarva
> Thursday Toraldarva
> Friday Fandarva
Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: Kalusa conlang in review - is it working?
Posted by: "Feaelin Moilar" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 7:46 pm (PDT)
> This is a vicious cycle because the more people drop out, the less
> interesting the project becomes for the remaining people.
> Maybe regular progress reports / recruiting drives on
> CONLANG-L, ZBB and so forth would help offset this a bit.
For example, I was blissfully unaware of Kalusa, despite lurking on this
list. No doubt presented during my very busy period where I only read
small portions of the conlang list.
This discussion has sparked my interest and I'll be peeking at it over the
next week or so. :)
Iain
Messages in this topic (8)
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8b. Re: Kalusa conlang in review - is it working?
Posted by: "Iain E. Davis" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 8:30 pm (PDT)
> For example, I was blissfully unaware of Kalusa, despite
> lurking on this list. No doubt presented during my very busy
> period where I only read small portions of the conlang list.
>
> This discussion has sparked my interest and I'll be peeking
> at it over the next week or so. :)
Are the dictionaries auto-generated? The Kalusa to English seems to end
unexpectedly at the beginning of 'r'.
Iain
Messages in this topic (8)
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8c. Re: Kalusa conlang in review - is it working?
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 10:08 pm (PDT)
--- "Iain E. Davis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > For example, I was blissfully unaware of Kalusa, despite
> > lurking on this list. No doubt presented during my very busy
> > period where I only read small portions of the conlang list.
> >
> > This discussion has sparked my interest and I'll be peeking
> > at it over the next week or so. :)
>
> Are the dictionaries auto-generated? The Kalusa to English seems to end
> unexpectedly at the beginning of 'r'.
>
> Iain
>
I started generating the dictionary by hand and then realized I couldn't keep
up with it that way, so I put it on my To-Do list to generate it
programmatically. About that time I got a new job that has been occupying a lot
of my time and I haven't gotten around to getting it done yet, so the
dictionary is hopelessly obsolete at the moment.
--gary
Messages in this topic (8)
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9. Re: Looking for a term
Posted by: "Scotto Hlad" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2006 7:52 pm (PDT)
Thanks all for the info.
The verb portion may not necessarily be a verb per say. Lets think in terms
of an adjective like "blue." When combined with the aspectus (my proposed
term) inflected for inchoative, the combination means "becomes blue, turns
blue etc"
Xyz blue = he turns blue
Xyz cold = it is getting cold
Yesterday xyz blue = yesterday he turned blue.
Etc.
Thoughts?
S
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Javier BF
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 5:05 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Looking for a term
On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:34:07 +0200, taliesin the storyteller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>* Scotto Hlad said on 2006-09-02 09:27:29 +0200
>> I'm looking for a term to describe a particular form in an a priori
>> language I'm creating.
>>
>> I plan to use verb aspects only. What I'd like to do is use the verb
>> plus an auxiliary word to create the verb in the appropriate aspect.
>> This auxiliary word will be specific enough to include the pronoun
associated with it.
>>
>> Here is an example
>>
>> xyz= 1st person singluar ingressive
>>
>> Xyw walk = I start to walk
>> Xyx walk= you start to walk
>> Xyz walk=he starts to walk.
>>
>> Is there a linguistic term for this auxilary word to indicate person
>> and aspect? I have toyed with the idea of calling it the "aspectus"
>
>This very much looks like Basque, except the "auxiliary" follows the
>meaning-carrying verb in Basque. Basque uses the term "synthetic verb"
>for the "auxiliary", since it is inflected. "Walk" would in Basque be
>called a "periphrastic" verb.
Except that in Basque the aspectual part (perfect/continuous/prospective) is
mostly expressed by suffixes appended to the lexical verb, rather than in
the auxiliary (which mainly indicates person, mood, and past/non-past
tense):
"ikusi dut" ("I have seen it", lit. "I have it seen") "ikusten dut ("I see
it", lit. "I have it in seeing") "ikusiko dut" ("I will see it", lit. "I
have it of seen") "ikusi nuen" ("I saw it", lit. "I had it seen") "ikusten
nuen" ("I used to see it", lit. "I had it in seeing") "ikusiko nuen" ("I was
going to see it", lit. "I had it of seen")
OTOH, English itself uses similar constructions (a conjugated auxiliary verb
agreeing with the subject, and a lexical verb in some non-finite form) to
express most aspects, such as perfect ("I have done", "she has done"),
continuous ("I am doing", "she is doing"), ingressive ("I start to do", "she
starts to do"), etc.
Messages in this topic (4)
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