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There are 11 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Looking for a term
From: John Vertical
2. Re: Nimrina colors updated
From: John Vertical
3a. Re: Gmane
From: H. S. Teoh
3b. Gmane
From: Philippe Debar
3c. Re: Gmane
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4. Re: Lexicon counting (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1...)
From: Iain E. Davis
5a. Re: Lexicon storage methodology (was: Lexicon counting...)
From: Iain E. Davis
5b. Re: Lexicon storage methodology (was: Lexicon counting...)
From: Edgard Bikelis
5c. Re: Lexicon storage methodology (was: Lexicon counting...)
From: Iain E. Davis
5d. Re: Lexicon storage methodology
From: Edgard Bikelis
6. Re: Lexicon storage methodology (was: Lexicon counting)
From: Iain E. Davis
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1. Re: Looking for a term
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 5:51 am (PDT)
>On 9/2/06, taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > * Scotto Hlad said on 2006-09-02 09:27:29 +0200
> > > I'm looking for a term to describe a particular form in an a priori
>language
> > > I'm creating.
> >
> > This very much looks like Basque, except the "auxiliary" follows the
> > meaning-carrying verb in Basque.
>
>And it reminded me of negation in Finnish, which IIRC uses an
>inflected-for-person auxiliary to indicate the negation followed by a
>not-inflected-for-person form of the meaning verb. (I'm not sure which
>of the two is inflected for tense or aspect.)
>
>Cheers,
>--
>Philip Newton
It's called "the negativ verb", so along that model, maybe yours would be
"the aspectual verb" - or "an", since I gather you're going to have more
than one?
-The actual verb in Finnish comes after the auxiliary in a participle form.
All TAM marking except imperativ are also on this participle; historically
there were more forms, but it's still been a crippled paradigm already in
Proto-Uralic...
--- Scotto Hlad wrote:
>The verb portion may not necessarily be a verb per say. Lets think in terms
>of an adjective like "blue." When combined with the aspectus (my proposed
>term) inflected for inchoative, the combination means "becomes blue, turns
>blue etc"
>
>Xyz blue = he turns blue
>Xyz cold = it is getting cold
>Yesterday xyz blue = yesterday he turned blue.
>
>Etc.
>
>Thoughts?
Interesting.
So when the "verb part" IS a verb, what form is it in? I don't think you
mentioned that. Is it just a generic quotation-form-infinitiv, or something
more specific?
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. Re: Nimrina colors updated
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 6:26 am (PDT)
--- Herman Miller wrote:
>Technically, you could say that "tavla" is the color that I perceive when I
>look at the lowest circle on the Nimrina color chart on my monitor. (...) I
>could just say "tavla" = "green" and leave it at that. Nimrina speakers are
>close enough to human that they probably perceive similar colors. But if I
>want a better definition of specifically what kind of "green" is considered
>the most basic or prototypical "tavla", English words are inadequate.
IME "prototypical colors" are greitly subjectiv. I've recently thought that
maybe a more exact approach would be to use "color density" charted over
colorspace...
To keep things simple, let's say each word's definition consists of 3 levels
- a core of "prototypical C", surrounded by layers of "hue of C" and
"C-hued". You'd first have the various-sized blobs of "prototypical" colors
scattered 'round the area much in the same way you have exact hues on your
current color maps, only with small margins in the color rather than strict
single colors - the primaries probably *smaller* than secondaries. (Deciding
on a stereotypical black is trivial, but different people probably have
vastly different ideas on what's a stereotypical pink.)
Some secondary (and all tertiary) "prototypes" would likely end up partially
or wholly overlapping with the "hue of" regions of various primaries, eg.
English "indigo" can be seen as a hue of "blue" or "purple", and thus
"prototypical indigo" would have to overlap with both "hue of blue" and "hue
of purple" in this system.
To wrap things up, no "hue of" layers could be left as the only descriptions
of any colorspace point - they would also have to be in the "C-hued" area of
some other (probably nearest primary) color. Obviously if something _isn't_
a pure / stereotypical color, it has to be tinted with something else, no?
Again, I suspect this zone would be the largest for primaries but smaller
for others.
I could rant on about how this system could be used to define exactly
whether a color is primary, secondary or tertiary, but I'll put this up for
commenting first...
Oh yes, and I imagine illustrating this sort of a color map would be damned
difficult. You'd probably need either LOTS of 2D color maps, or a few good
fully 3D ones...
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Gmane
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 10:03 am (PDT)
On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 11:25:55AM -0400, Philippe Debar wrote:
> Hello list !
>
> Would there be any problem for adding the Conlang mailing list to
> gmane mail-to-news service ?
Personally, I lean against doing this, but I'll let Henrik and the rest
of the list speak up. I don't like the idea of gateways in general, and
we've had bad experiences in the past with Yahoo! groups.
> Gmane allows to access any mailing list through a newsgroup interface.
> (More info at http://www.gmane.org/ ) As I find newsgroup more usable
> than mailing lists, I would be interested to be able to access Conlang
> in this way.
[...]
Interesting. I find both equally usable. But then again, I do use
mutt-ng with NNTP support.
T
--
Without geometry, life would be pointless.
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Gmane
Posted by: "Philippe Debar" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 10:20 am (PDT)
Hello list !
Would there be any problem for adding the Conlang mailing list to gmane
mail-to-news service ?
Gmane allows to access any mailing list through a newsgroup interface. (More
info at http://www.gmane.org/ ) As I find newsgroup more usable than mailing
lists, I would be interested to be able to access Conlang in this way.
Sincerely,
--
Philippe Debar
Newbie conlanger (that is just interest and many ideas, no conlang yet)
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Gmane
Posted by: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 11:07 am (PDT)
li [H. S. Teoh] mi tulis la
> > Would there be any problem for adding the Conlang mailing list to
> > gmane mail-to-news service ?
>
> Personally, I lean against doing this, but I'll let Henrik
> and the rest
> of the list speak up. I don't like the idea of gateways in
> general, and
> we've had bad experiences in the past with Yahoo! groups.
The Yahoo mirror does have some very annoying features.
> > Gmane allows to access any mailing list through a newsgroup
> interface.
> > (More info at http://www.gmane.org/ ) As I find newsgroup
> more usable
> > than mailing lists, I would be interested to be able to
> access Conlang
> > in this way.
> [...]
>
> Interesting. I find both equally usable. But then again, I do use
> mutt-ng with NNTP support.
I'd much prefer that all of these be taken over to Usenet. It's a shame
alt.language.artificial doesn't get used much anymore.
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4. Re: Lexicon counting (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1...)
Posted by: "Iain E. Davis" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:03 pm (PDT)
Edgard wrote:
> I used Excel as well, but I'm using the Openoffice equivalent
> for the Unicode compatibility. Then I save it as a CSV file,
Hmm. To what degree did Excel not do what you needed unicode wise?
I was able to come up with what I needed for IPA symbols, which was my main
concern. I was happy from there. :)
Not that I think you should change. If OpenOffice works successfully,
awesome!
> and open it with PHP. That part is quite easy. Then I show it
> through PHP, and I'm now fighting against inflection ; ).
> Here is the result so far:
> http://ausonia.parnassum.org/dicionario.tudo.php
Pretty. I've not anything so well constructed, web-wise. :)
> But I just realized that I can't reverse the entries. I guess
> I should have a English dictionary, for instance, and link my
> Ausonian entries to the English entries? Ouch.
The method I used for achieve that effect doesn't produce a
English->Taraitola dictionary, or in your case an English->Ausonian one.
What I did is one of my columns (in addition to the _definition_ column) is
"English Word" column. This is the closest equivalent english word, if any.
Then for the English->Taraitola "Cross-Index" a entries looks like:
I: äm
You: säm
And my expectation is that you look up äm and
> >
> >> haven't got the pronunciation and whatnot for the English
> words), so
> >> the main entry always an Ayeri word. The problem is that
> my database
> >> does not accept sub-entries, so every
> >>
> >
> > I have the same issue, although I don't believe Taraitola has any
> > constructions like tapiao, so it is less of a concern.
> >
> >> tapiao - to put; to set
> >> tapiao dayrin - to save ("to put aside")
> >>
> > ...[snipped]
> >
> > Hmm. Since each of those have a distinct meaning, I'd argue that in
> > terms of counting, you should count them all. :)
> >
>
> I would add it as a derivative meaning from the same verb.
> For instance:
>
> tapiao
> 1. to put; to set.
> 2. ~ <i>dayrin</i> - to put aside; to save.
>
> or something like that.
>
> >
> >> Where my German-English dictionary would list all those
> entries just
> >> under "to put", my database makes a new record out of all of these
> >> (unfortunately).
> >>
> > It probably would. But your English->German dictionary
> wouldn't, so
> > you have to make some sacrifices somewhere. :). I have
> something of
> > the same problem on the _other_ end. There are words that have
> > distinctions that English doesn't make. So the 'english word'
> > column/field can potentially have apparent duplicates. It doesn't
> > matter too much to me, since the more important field is the
> > 'definition' field. English word is merely for creating a
> 'index' of
> > english-->Taraitola words (no meaning or adornment, just a
> pointer to the Taraitola word).
> >
> Could you not be more specific in the entries? Or it is a
> word-to-word association?
> >
> >> As for names, I keep them in an extra list, so they are
> not counted.
> >>
> > Common
> > Which is a reasonable separation. Arguably, when I generate the
> > dictionary, mine _are_ separated...into Appendix C: Famous
> People and
> > Places. In my data, though, the only real difference is
> that they're flagged as 'C'
> > entries (for appendix C) instead of 'A' entries.
> >
> > We did similar things, just different approaches.
> >
> Both are good ideas. I need to categorize the entries in this
> way... by semantical domain. Do anyone know a good list of
> classes for it?
>
> I would put the names on the main dictionary just for the
> etymology. Who were the bearers of the name is a matter for
> another publication : ). Do gods count on this restriction?
> >
> >> expressions usually have their own entries as well. There are not
> >> many expressions listed in the dictionary, though, just a
> >>
> > I have very few expressions and in fact, they are all out of date
> > since I've never revisited them since I completely revised the
> > phonology. They are stored completely separately, but they
> may pre-date the spreadsheet...
> >
> And these expressions are entries on the dictionary, or
> 'sub-meanings'
> on the main word? for instance:
>
> bhâma:
> 1. that which is said, fame.
> 2. ~ ambrotós - the immortal fame, used in poetry &c &c
> >
> >> handful. Futhermore, since Ayeri is an agglutinative
> language, it has
> >> lots of suffixes -- these are also counted as words, even the ones
> >> that only have a syntactical meaning.
> >>
> >
> > We differ here...as I mentioned to Henrik, I don't list any
> suffixed forms.
> > There are some exceptions where some affixes completely change the
> > meaning, but for the most part, it is only the 'original' form. :)
> >
> >
> >> If you removed those from the list, you'd still have
> something around
> >> 1300 words, maybe a little more or less than that.
> >>
> >
> > Wow.
> >
> Someday, hopefully, I will pass the thousand frontier ; ).
> > Our discussion prompted me to add a 'statistics' worksheet, just to
> > see what I had. I won't bore you with the full details, but
> a brief look:
> >
> > 916 Entries, 162 of which are "Names"/"Proper Nouns". I
> need to dig in
> > and work my way through the swadesh list and all the weekly
> vocabs I
> > haven't done yet...:)
> >
> > Feaelin
> >
> >
> What about giving for each word/entry an example phrase?
> Specially for verbs, it would be useful for showing the
> prepositions... the case of the object, and for exercising
> the fluency, too...
>
> Edgard Bikelis.
>
Messages in this topic (33)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: Lexicon storage methodology (was: Lexicon counting...)
Posted by: "Iain E. Davis" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:23 pm (PDT)
Embarassingly, I mis-keyed, and inadvertantly sent this before I was
finished. Ignore the previous version, or laugh at it, as you like. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Iain E. Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 2006 September 06 8:38 PM
To: 'Constructed Languages List'
Subject: RE: [CONLANG] Lexicon counting (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1...)
Edgard wrote:
> I used Excel as well, but I'm using the Openoffice equivalent for the
> Unicode compatibility. Then I save it as a CSV file,
Hmm. To what degree did Excel not do what you needed unicode wise?
I was able to come up with what I needed for IPA symbols, which was my main
concern. I was happy from there. :)
Hm. Was it sorting related? I had to rig some things up to get sorting the
way I wanted. :)
Not that I think you should change. If OpenOffice works successfully,
awesome!
> and open it with PHP. That part is quite easy. Then I show it through
> PHP, and I'm now fighting against inflection ; ).
> Here is the result so far:
> http://ausonia.parnassum.org/dicionario.tudo.php
Pretty. I've not anything so well constructed, web-wise. :)
> But I just realized that I can't reverse the entries. I guess I should
> have a English dictionary, for instance, and link my Ausonian entries
> to the English entries? Ouch.
The method I used for achieve that effect doesn't produce a
English->Taraitola dictionary, or in your case an English->Ausonian one.
What I did is one of my columns (in addition to the _definition_ column) is
"English Word" column. This is the closest equivalent english word, if any.
Then for the English->Taraitola "Cross-Index" a entries looks like:
I: äm
You: säm
And my expectation is that you look up äm and säm in the Taraitola->English
dictionary, to be sure that you're using a word with the correct flavor.
One thing I've never gotten around to fixing is output where two Taraitola
words map to the same english word...this generates two entries on the
English->Taraitola side.
I also appear to be repeating myself. I think its my week for redundancy.
> Could you not be more specific in the entries? Or it is a word-to-word
> association?
Perhaps. In at least the case of a trio of words that all mean 'love', there
really aren't any other words that match up at all. Since my main intent is
to give an english speaker a way to find the right words, it serves its
purpose. :)
> I would put the names on the main dictionary just for the etymology.
> Who were the bearers of the name is a matter for another publication :
> ). Do gods count on this restriction?
I believe I have gods listed as 'C' entries. However, I also have a 'tag'
column, which is purely arbitrary so I can filter easily for particular
groups of words, such as...'Deities'.
> And these expressions are entries on the dictionary, or 'sub-meanings'
> on the main word? for instance:
For my part, I never put any expressions in any form of my dictionary. I
think my intention was to use them as syntax examples, but they've mostly
languished, with my attention elsewhere.
> Someday, hopefully, I will pass the thousand frontier ; ).
Depending on how you count it, I'm either looming close, or still have three
hundred or so to go to hit that mark. :). After I tackle Swadesh's list....?
> What about giving for each word/entry an example phrase?
> Specially for verbs, it would be useful for showing the
> prepositions... the case of the object, and for exercising the
> fluency, too...
Like many dictionaries do, in fact. Sadly, I've not done so, but it would
make sense to do so. Much like the 2nd weekly vocab has 1. Mushroom and then
"I found mushrooms in the forest". As you say, this is especially useful for
verbs, practice, and the specificity of prepositions.
I currently don't have such an animal, but maybe I should put it on my
horizon. :)
Hm. My columns are: Taraitola Word, Pronounciation, Part of Speech,
definition, English Word, A or C (regular word, or proper name), and the
ever-arbitrary "Tag" column. And then some other, "calculated" columns,
primarily needed for the 'dictionary generator' VBA script.
Iain.
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Lexicon storage methodology (was: Lexicon counting...)
Posted by: "Edgard Bikelis" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:45 pm (PDT)
Iain E. Davis wrote:
> Embarassingly, I mis-keyed, and inadvertantly sent this before I was
> finished. Ignore the previous version, or laugh at it, as you like. :)
>
I did it a few times myself, too. I can't blame you ; ).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Iain E. Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, 2006 September 06 8:38 PM
> To: 'Constructed Languages List'
> Subject: RE: [CONLANG] Lexicon counting (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1...)
>
> Edgard wrote:
>
>> I used Excel as well, but I'm using the Openoffice equivalent for the
>> Unicode compatibility. Then I save it as a CSV file,
>>
> Hmm. To what degree did Excel not do what you needed unicode wise?
> I was able to come up with what I needed for IPA symbols, which was my main
> concern. I was happy from there. :)
>
> Hm. Was it sorting related? I had to rig some things up to get sorting the
> way I wanted. :)
>
> Not that I think you should change. If OpenOffice works successfully,
> awesome!
>
Excel opens the file more easily. But when I save an Unicode table as
.CSV, and the I open it again, every accent is messed up. What I'm
thinking to do is to edit it in transcription... easier than adding
macros... and writing another function for converting it back to
Unicode. But I'm playing with an online editor for the dictionary, then
I could forget other programs. But they are useful for mass editing and
that sort of thing.
>
>> and open it with PHP. That part is quite easy. Then I show it through
>> PHP, and I'm now fighting against inflection ; ).
>> Here is the result so far:
>> http://ausonia.parnassum.org/dicionario.tudo.php
>>
>
> Pretty. I've not anything so well constructed, web-wise. :)
>
Thanks! It's not that well constructed, I just know how to use the
plaster, ehehehe. The code is chaos, I almost see the primeval deities
while editing it.
>
>
>> But I just realized that I can't reverse the entries. I guess I should
>> have a English dictionary, for instance, and link my Ausonian entries
>> to the English entries? Ouch.
>>
>
> The method I used for achieve that effect doesn't produce a
> English->Taraitola dictionary, or in your case an English->Ausonian one.
>
> What I did is one of my columns (in addition to the _definition_ column) is
> "English Word" column. This is the closest equivalent english word, if any.
> Then for the English->Taraitola "Cross-Index" a entries looks like:
>
> I: äm
> You: säm
>
> And my expectation is that you look up äm and säm in the Taraitola->English
> dictionary, to be sure that you're using a word with the correct flavor.
>
> One thing I've never gotten around to fixing is output where two Taraitola
> words map to the same english word...this generates two entries on the
> English->Taraitola side.
>
> I also appear to be repeating myself. I think its my week for redundancy.
>
You mean, even if two Taraitola words go to the same English one, each
output is counted as a separated entry? Hmm... you could do first an
Taraitola > English table/matrix, and then collapse the entries with the
same fields:
Taraitola - English
blabla1 - blabla2
blabla3 - blabla2
to
English - Taraitola
blabla2 - blabla1, blabla3
>
>> Could you not be more specific in the entries? Or it is a word-to-word
>> association?
>>
>
> Perhaps. In at least the case of a trio of words that all mean 'love', there
> really aren't any other words that match up at all. Since my main intent is
> to give an english speaker a way to find the right words, it serves its
> purpose. :)
>
I thought using more words to describe it. But I understood now.
[cut]
>
>> Someday, hopefully, I will pass the thousand frontier ; ).
>>
>
> Depending on how you count it, I'm either looming close, or still have three
> hundred or so to go to hit that mark. :). After I tackle Swadesh's list....?
>
Well, if I count every inflected form, I'm very rich already, heheehe ; ).
>
>
>> What about giving for each word/entry an example phrase?
>> Specially for verbs, it would be useful for showing the
>> prepositions... the case of the object, and for exercising the
>> fluency, too...
>>
>
> Like many dictionaries do, in fact. Sadly, I've not done so, but it would
> make sense to do so. Much like the 2nd weekly vocab has 1. Mushroom and then
> "I found mushrooms in the forest". As you say, this is especially useful for
> verbs, practice, and the specificity of prepositions.
>
> I currently don't have such an animal, but maybe I should put it on my
> horizon. :)
>
Such an animal?
> Hm. My columns are: Taraitola Word, Pronounciation, Part of Speech,
> definition, English Word, A or C (regular word, or proper name), and the
> ever-arbitrary "Tag" column. And then some other, "calculated" columns,
> primarily needed for the 'dictionary generator' VBA script.
>
Mine are: form, class, derivation, conjugation, aspect (of the verbal
root), genre, declension type, portuguese meaning, english meaning,
sureness ; ), revision, Pokorny (as it is an indo-european language),
laryngeals, latin, greek, and sanskrit cognates, comments, etc.
My most recent problem is that some verbal roots take another roots for
the lacking aspects... I can add another column for that, or add this
comment on each entry, or give each stem aspect for each verb. Or I can
forget that details and create myself, but I am so happy when my verbs
look like the vedic ones ; ). Anohow, that will hurt, I can feel already ; )
> Iain.
>
>
Edgard.
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: Lexicon storage methodology (was: Lexicon counting...)
Posted by: "Iain E. Davis" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 8:37 pm (PDT)
> Excel opens the file more easily. But when I save an Unicode
> table as .CSV, and the I open it again, every accent is
> messed up. What I'm thinking to do is to edit it in
Now that would be annoying. I've not export to CSV and back again.
I wonder if exporting to XML and back would have the same issues. Although
that may not be helpful for what you're wanting to do. :)
> transcription... easier than adding macros... and writing
> another function for converting it back to Unicode. But I'm
> playing with an online editor for the dictionary, then I
> could forget other programs. But they are useful for mass
> editing and that sort of thing.
Indeed. And easy filtering, querying, sorting, etc....one of the reasons
that my PHP-based approach never went very far. I didn't want to give up
Excel. :)
> Thanks! It's not that well constructed, I just know how
> to use the plaster, ehehehe. The code is chaos, I almost see
> the primeval deities while editing it.
*grin*. I know the feeling. I was just looking at the PHP I wrote, and found
it...messy. Very clearly 'just thrown together'. Akin to building a house by
flinging bricks into a hole.
> You mean, even if two Taraitola words go to the same English
> one, each output is counted as a separated entry? Hmm... you
> could do first an Taraitola > English table/matrix, and then
> collapse the entries with the same fields:
>
> Taraitola - English
> blabla1 - blabla2
> blabla3 - blabla2
>
> to
>
> English - Taraitola
> blabla2 - blabla1, blabla3
That, is in fact, what I should do. I've just been too lazy to actually
automate it. Or manually re-edit after generating. I rarely generate
anymore, since I tend to just use the spreadsheet.
> > I currently don't have such an animal, but maybe I should
> put it on my
> > horizon. :)
> >
> Such an animal?
My apologies. An idiom meaning...I don't have that type of thing. Another
variant is 'there is no such animal' indicating that whatever is being
discussed is mythical, non-existent. Like say, a flying pig.
> Mine are: form, class, derivation, conjugation, aspect (of
> the verbal root), genre, declension type, portuguese meaning,
> english meaning, sureness ; ), revision, Pokorny (as it is an
Useful for someone who doesn't understand portugese, for example (me!) I
might be able to get a vague idea, but I'd have to resort to the english to
be sure.
> myself, but I am so happy when my verbs look like the vedic
> ones ; ). Anohow, that will hurt, I can feel already ; )
Nothing like a new idea or change that involves going through your entire
list making changes or adding new data to every entry. Usually not the more
enjoyable part of conlanging. :)
Iain
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5d. Re: Lexicon storage methodology
Posted by: "Edgard Bikelis" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 9:52 pm (PDT)
Iain E. Davis wrote:
>> Excel opens the file more easily. But when I save an Unicode
>> table as .CSV, and the I open it again, every accent is
>> messed up. What I'm thinking to do is to edit it in
>>
> Now that would be annoying. I've not export to CSV and back again.
>
> I wonder if exporting to XML and back would have the same issues. Although
> that may not be helpful for what you're wanting to do. :)
>
I think so. My second sketch was a hand-written XML file : ). It's very
useful for editing in serious typesetting programs, like Word is trying
to become. I played with it a little, a year ago, and now I just need
the dictionary in an acceptable state to work on this again. XML is very
useful... and very cryptic.
>
>> transcription... easier than adding macros... and writing
>> another function for converting it back to Unicode. But I'm
>> playing with an online editor for the dictionary, then I
>> could forget other programs. But they are useful for mass
>> editing and that sort of thing.
>>
>
> Indeed. And easy filtering, querying, sorting, etc....one of the reasons
> that my PHP-based approach never went very far. I didn't want to give up
> Excel. :)
>
Ah, I need to read some dictionaries that I can't kidnap from my college
library. Then this web editing would be useful. Adding extended
characters are really easy, see that:
http://ausonia.parnassum.org/teste.01.php . Take the code, if you (or
anyone else here ; ) ) like.
>
>> Thanks! It's not that well constructed, I just know how
>> to use the plaster, ehehehe. The code is chaos, I almost see
>> the primeval deities while editing it.
>>
>
> *grin*. I know the feeling. I was just looking at the PHP I wrote, and found
> it...messy. Very clearly 'just thrown together'. Akin to building a house by
> flinging bricks into a hole.
>
>
>> You mean, even if two Taraitola words go to the same English
>> one, each output is counted as a separated entry? Hmm... you
>> could do first an Taraitola > English table/matrix, and then
>> collapse the entries with the same fields:
>>
>> Taraitola - English
>> blabla1 - blabla2
>> blabla3 - blabla2
>>
>> to
>>
>> English - Taraitola
>> blabla2 - blabla1, blabla3
>>
>
> That, is in fact, what I should do. I've just been too lazy to actually
> automate it. Or manually re-edit after generating. I rarely generate
> anymore, since I tend to just use the spreadsheet.
>
I'm very lazy too. But I think that after suffering a little now, I can
just add tons of words and entries without bothering about
technicalities. I'm afraid it's just a naïve hope, as I'm always
reworking the technicalities. But let's keep this hope for now ; ).
>
>>> I currently don't have such an animal, but maybe I should
>>>
>> put it on my
>>
>>> horizon. :)
>>>
>>>
>> Such an animal?
>>
>
> My apologies. An idiom meaning...I don't have that type of thing. Another
> variant is 'there is no such animal' indicating that whatever is being
> discussed is mythical, non-existent. Like say, a flying pig.
>
I understood, more or less. But I never 'heard' it before. Curious! I
like to translate portuguese idioms to english, normally the result is
really funny. For instance, when you are really, but really wrong, you
are "roundly mistaken", 'redondamente enganado'. Or, when you have to
give up of something, you have to "take of your poney out of the rain",
'tirar seu cavalinho da chuva'.
>
>> Mine are: form, class, derivation, conjugation, aspect (of
>> the verbal root), genre, declension type, portuguese meaning,
>> english meaning, sureness ; ), revision, Pokorny (as it is an
>>
> Useful for someone who doesn't understand portugese, for example (me!) I
> might be able to get a vague idea, but I'd have to resort to the english to
> be sure.
>
Well, my fellow lusophones are not much interested in conlanguing. For
them it's just a little odder than studying Latin on College, as I do.
And the all ones that happen to be interested in it can read English,
then the portuguese meaning is just for any lost soul (I almost wrote
sow ; ) ) that I didn't count as possible.
>
>> myself, but I am so happy when my verbs look like the vedic
>> ones ; ). Anohow, that will hurt, I can feel already ; )
>>
>
> Nothing like a new idea or change that involves going through your entire
> list making changes or adding new data to every entry. Usually not the more
> enjoyable part of conlanging. :)
>
Surely! If at least all things, once done, were done forever, that would
be tolerable. But having to rework on that things you thought were
already done... not so good, indeed. That reminds me of my orthographic
revision, but I should write a new email for that.
BTW, do you have a grammar of your conlang? I'm curious now : ).
> Iain
>
>
Edgard.
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6. Re: Lexicon storage methodology (was: Lexicon counting)
Posted by: "Iain E. Davis" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2006 8:27 pm (PDT)
Arthaey:
> Since MySQL version 4.1:
>
> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/4.1/en/charset-unicode.html
I thought they had, or had it planned. This must have been a long time ago
now that I was tinkering with this.
Carsten:
> Unfortunately, MySQL 5 addresses this issue only
> half-heartedly as it seems to me, I don't know which version
> I have exactly, but in my version at least Unicode does not
> really seem to work. The system somehow can only handle
> iso-8859-1 and changes my UTF-8 characters to _°_ and such.
> When giving out the word list in HTML, I can specify that
> this should be reencoded to UTF-8 with HTML's meta-tags. On
> the other hand, it may be just because I have WinXP and not Linux.
Hmmm. Maybe it is time I re-tinkered, just to see what the limitations are.
Actually, looking at what I had written, I seem to have made it work....
Ah. I got around it by running the input from the form through htmlentities
which results in any "special" characters being converted to html entities.
Thus, no actual unicode to store in the database.
For example, the IPA symbol represented by SAMPA /6/ becomes ɐ
A search becomes a little more complex, since you have to run the search
word through htmlentities before querying the database.
This is not ideal, of course, since I'm effectively contaminating my data
with html-isms. But it got me around the limitations of MySQL at the time.
:)
I think I got tired of fiddling with PHP not too long after that, so it
never really went anywhere. :)
Iain
Messages in this topic (33)
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