There are 16 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: YAGPT: Carsten (was Re: Vertical script)
From: Carsten Becker
1b. Re: YAGPT: Carsten (was Re: Vertical script)
From: Mark J. Reed
1c. Re: YAGPT: Carsten (was Re: Vertical script)
From: Mark J. Reed
2a. Re: Werewolf
From: R A Brown
2b. Re: Werewolf
From: Henrik Theiling
2c. Re: Werewolf
From: R A Brown
3a. Re: Transcription exercise
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
3b. Re: Transcription exercise
From: John Vertical
4. Re: Weekly Vocab #5.3 (original)
From: caeruleancentaur
5a. Re: Weekly Vocab #5.3 (original)
From: Carsten Becker
5b. Re: Weekly Vocab #5.3 (original)
From: Tim May
6. lykanthropos (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1))
From: R A Brown
7a. Re: The "best" system of writing
From: Gary Shannon
7b. Re: The "best" system of writing
From: Sai Emrys
8. Re: Laturslav (was: Hello! - introduction)
From: Santiago Matías Feldman
9. Another resource for filling out your lexicon
From: Alex Fink
Messages
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1a. Re: YAGPT: Carsten (was Re: Vertical script)
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:57 am (PDT)
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:39:51 -0500, Eric Christopherson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On Sep 15, 2006, at 11:38 AM, Paul Bennett wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Sep 15, 2006 11:40 AM
>>>
>>> On 9/15/06, Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>> Yours,
>>>> ["k_ha_-:s.tn= "bEk6]
>>>
>>> Do you really divide the spoken syllables between [s] and [t]? I
>>> would
>>> have expected the syllable division to lie before the [stn=].
Whoops. Yes, I was misguided by hyphenation rules: Cars-ten.
<snip>
>Actually, if we were to invoke the MOP, wouldn't it have to be
>pronounced *[Stn=]?
In turn, what's the MOP? It's true that <st> becomes [St] in syllable
onsets, but it's not the case here.
>And what's YAGPT?
"Yet Another German Phonology Thread" (in this case) as opposed to YA*GT's,
which means "Yet Another ... Grammar Thread". We have this abbreviation
because such threads about German or French or English pronunciation and
grammar occur here frequently. Another acronym you need to know in order to
survive is ANADEW, "A Natlang Already Dunnit Except Worse", most commonly
found in the phrase _a case of ANADEW_. Somtimes also referred to as
_anadewism_.
Yours,
Carsten
... who actually just wanted to know how to write his name in Remi's
beautiful script
Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: YAGPT: Carsten (was Re: Vertical script)
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:30 am (PDT)
Inconsistent you are being, Carsten:
PN = Phillip Newton
CB = Carsten Becker
EC = Eric Christopherson
PN> Do you really divide the spoken syllables between [s] and [t]? I
PN> would have expected the syllable division to lie before the [stn=].
CB> Whoops. Yes, I was misguided by hyphenation rules: Cars-ten.
>From that "Yes", I infer that you agree with Phillip that the syllable
division lies before the [stn=].
EC> Actually, if we were to invoke the MOP, wouldn't it have to be
EC> pronounced *[Stn=]?
CB> In turn, what's the MOP?
As Paul said above, it's the Maximum Onset Principle. I infer it to
state that given a consonant cluster at a syllable boundry, the
longest legal initial cluster is the onset of the second syllable.
CB> It's true that <st> becomes [St] in syllable onsets, but it's not
the case here.
Why is that not the case here? You just said (above) that you agreed
with Phillip that it *is* the case here. So now I'm confused. Where
do the syllables in your name break?
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: YAGPT: Carsten (was Re: Vertical script)
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:37 am (PDT)
On 9/16/06, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> PN = Phillip Newton
Sorry for the misspelling, Philip. There should be only one L throughout.
-Marc
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Werewolf
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:06 am (PDT)
Hi,
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> R A Brown writes:
[snip]
>>Typical? Doesn't it rather depend upon whether a language forms
>>head+attribute or attribute+head compounds?
>>...
>
> By writing 'man-wolf', I meant 'man' modifying 'wolf' in whatever
> order the particular language implements this.
Right - I think saying 'order' in your original statement misled me.
Yep - even the versions I gave with 'wolf' first support the point that
'wolf' is the head of the phrase and the 'man/human' word is the
attribute. It does seem that people regarded these creatures as
essentially wolves trapped for the most part in humanoid form, rather
than humans who occasionally got transmogrified into wolves.
> And welcome back, Ray! :-)
Thanks :-)
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}
Messages in this topic (44)
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2b. Re: Werewolf
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:46 am (PDT)
Hi!
R A Brown writes:
> Henrik Theiling wrote:
> > Hi!
> > R A Brown writes:
> [snip]
> >>Typical? Doesn't it rather depend upon whether a language forms
> >>head+attribute or attribute+head compounds?
> >>...
> > By writing 'man-wolf', I meant 'man' modifying 'wolf' in whatever
> > order the particular language implements this.
>
> Right - I think saying 'order' in your original statement misled me.
Yeah, it was at least ambiguous. Sorry!
> Yep - even the versions I gave with 'wolf' first support the point
> that 'wolf' is the head of the phrase and the 'man/human' word is the
> attribute. It does seem that people regarded these creatures as
> essentially wolves trapped for the most part in humanoid form, rather
> than humans who occasionally got transmogrified into wolves.
Would you happen to know until when the term 'versipellis' was know to
Romans or whether it was a Vulgar Latin word at all? The dictionaries
say it is used by Plautus, but I have no clue how much it is used by
ordinary people, too, and how long. Did it leave any trace in modern
Romance?
Elliot asked for the word and before that, I assumed Latin had none so
I compounded 'man-worf' in Þrjótrunn. But if it is used in Vulgar
Latin, I'd probably introduce at least a formal or ancient word, if
not a normal word, for 'werewolf' since the sound shifts are nice:
Versipellis > 'yspill' or maybe 'yrpill' (with a little consonant
cluster simplification). With another syncope in most cases,
e.g. nom.pl. 'ysplir' or 'yrplir'.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (44)
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2c. Re: Werewolf
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:20 am (PDT)
Henrik Theiling wrote:
[snip]
> Would you happen to know until when the term 'versipellis' was know to
> Romans or whether it was a Vulgar Latin word at all?
As a compound it would understood by Romans as "skin-changer" - but
whether it had any currency in colloquial use is rather doubtful.
> The dictionaries say it is used by Plautus,
Plautus used it as an epithet of Jupiter. Later writers Pliny, Petronius
& Appuleius use it to mean "werewolf."
> but I have no clue how much it is used by
> ordinary people, too, and how long.
As far as I know, there is no indication that the word was much used (if
at all) in colloquial speech. The evidence of the Romancelangs is that
the the word didn't make it into Vulgar Latin.
> Did it leave any trace in modern Romance?
Not that I am aware of.
> Elliot asked for the word and before that, I assumed Latin had none so
> I compounded 'man-worf' in Þrjótrunn.
All the modern Romancelangs have formed some sort of compound, whether
of 'man' + 'wolf' as in Spanish _hombre lobo_ (Thinks: that is a counter
example, isn't it?) or Portuguese _lobisomem_. Or an special epithet
added to wolf to make it clear that it's one of those 'humanoid wolves',
like French 'loup-garou' or Italian 'lupo mannaro'.
> But if it is used in Vulgar Latin,
It wasn't - you're compound is likely, given the scenario of your language.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}
Messages in this topic (44)
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3a. Re: Transcription exercise
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:23 am (PDT)
Remi Villatel skrev:
> During this offlist conversation, I also "built" the transcriptions of the
> names of all the capital cities of E.U. that I propose now as a test of
> phonotactics in your conlangs.
The only one of my conlangs that does indulge in this
kind(*) of thing is Sohlob, and even there transmogri-
fication will mostly be in order to satisfy vowel harmony,
since Sohlob is rather, but not entirely, permissive
WRT consonant clusters.
(* Of course Slvanjek and R3 will have their own
*forms* of some of these names, e.g. Slv. _Ruma_,
R3 _Roume_ but that's hardly a case of transcription into
a constrictive phonology. Likewise Mærik might end
up with some weird spellings, but there is also the
added difficulty of determining what these places were
called in the 14th century!)
So let's see what Sohlob makes of these. Pronunciation is
rather easily calculated from the romanization
See <http://wiki.frath.net/Sohlob_romanization>.
The Heleb dialect would be able to distinguish front
rounded vowels as as well as velar _ll_ from palatal
_l_. The given forms are Classical Sohlob unless
otherwise indicated.
> Amsterdam JatserhdaV [ja.tsEx.dav]
Amæstærdam
> Athinai JatiyaI [jatiHa"i]
Etiney/Esiney
> Baile Átha Cliath
> Baile jaaça klijaÇ [ba"i4e ja"aCa klij3C]
A check on the Net shows the native pronunciation to
be /,b&l;A: 'k;l;i@/ so:
Bælah Kliyeh, (Kidilib: _Belah Tliy_)
> Berlin BerhliJ [bEx.4ij]
_Berlin_ :-/ or possibly _Belin_ considering native [ba:\'li:n].
> Bratislava BratishlavA [bXatiz.lava]
Bradæhlavah
> Brussel BruseL [bXusE4]
> BritseL [bXi.tsE4] (in French)
_Brusel / Brisel_, Heleb: _Brüsil_
> Bucuresti BukureçtI [bukuXE.Cti]
Bukureçt
> Budapest BudapetsE [budapE.tsE]
Budupæçt (IIRC native ['budQpESt]
> Helsingfors JelhsijhforhsO [je5.sij.fOx.sO]
Hælsængfors < Finland Swedish [,hElsiN'fors]
Helsingiy < Finnish Helsinki
> Københaven KabajavaY [k3b3jav3H]
Kæbænhawun (native København [,k2bn='hAwn]
Heleb: Köbänhäwän
> La Valette La valeT [4a va4Et]
Lavalæt
(is this Valetta, Malta? If so: Valætah
> Luxemburg-Ville Lutselhburhvil [4u.tsE5.bux.vil]
Luxemburgish _Lëtzebuerg_ > _Leceburg/Leceburq_
> Lisboa LishboA [4iz.bo'a]
Lijbuweh < [liZ'bo6]
> Ljubljana LjublijayA [4ju.b4ijaHa]
Loblanah
> London LoyhdoY [4Ow.dOw]
London :-/
> Madrid VadriD [va.dXid]
Mezriz
> Lefkossia LevhkosjA {4ef.ko.sja]
Lefkusiyeh
> Paris ParI [paXi]
Perih
> Praha PraA [pXa"a]
Praqah
> Riga RigA [Xiga]
Rigeh
> Roma RovA [Xova]
Romah
> Skoplje SkoplijE [sko.p4ije]
Skoplæh
> Sofia SofjA {so.fja]
Sofiyæh
> Stockholm TsokolhvO [tsOkO5.vO]
Stoxolm
> Talinn TaliJ [ta4ij]
Talæn
> Warszawa VarhsavA [vax.sava]
Vaçrafah
> Wien ViiJ [vi"ij]
Vin
> Vilnius VilijuS [vilijus]
Vilenyus
> Zagreb TsagreP [tsa.gXEp]
Zagræb
>
> xa ko syedir! [Za: ko sHediX] (= Have fun!)
>
Messages in this topic (42)
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3b. Re: Transcription exercise
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:29 am (PDT)
Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
>Remi Villatel skrev:
>
> > During this offlist conversation, I also "built" the transcriptions of
>the > names of all the capital cities of E.U. that I propose now as a test
>of > phonotactics in your conlangs.
>
>The only one of my conlangs that does indulge in this
>kind(*) of thing is Sohlob, and even there transmogri-
>fication will mostly be in order to satisfy vowel harmony,
>since Sohlob is rather, but not entirely, permissive
>WRT consonant clusters.
uwjge is also suited for this - a welcom exercise as I *still* have thew few
morphophonology issues to work out before I could start participating in the
daily vocabs. Phonotax's more (tho not fully) stable.
I'm putting everything in ASCII to ensure they come out OK, but non-ASCII
spelling conventions usable here would include:
- <â ê ô û> for <aa ea oa uw>
- ŋ for /N/
- ś for /S/
I'll start with the more intresting results:
> > Baile Átha Cliath
>A check on the Net shows the native pronunciation to
>be /,b&l;A: 'k;l;i@/
Dublin in Irish I s'pose?
<pel aa tlia> [pEl AV tlja]
Tho I suspect <dablin> would be used instead...
> > Berlin
probably <pealin> ['peE.lIn]
> > Bratislava
<pratislava> [pBR\)a.'tIs.la.Ba]
> > Brussel
<prusel> ['pBR\)u\.sEl]
> > Bucuresti
<pukurecti> [pu\.'ku\.rES.tI]
> > Budapest
<pudabect> [pu\.'da.bESt]
> > Københaven
probably <kyb'naan> ["[EMAIL PROTECTED]'nAVn]
> > La Valette
<walleta> ['wal.lE.ta] (The original Maltese has geminates, no?)
> > Luxemburg-Ville
<lusk'mburg> ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Luxemburgish _Lëtzebuerg_
<lotc'burg> ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] (first vowel quality unsure - could end up as
[8] or [a] too depending on the exact phonetic quality of the stressed shwa)
> > Lisboa
possibly <lizboa> ['lIr\_rboO], but more likely <lic'boa> ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Ljubljana
<luwbliona> [lu\U.'bljO.na]
> > Madrid
<madriz> ['ma.drIr\_r]
> > Lefkosia
<lefkoca> ['lEf.kO.Sa>
> > Paris
<pari> ['pa.R\I]
> > Skoplje
<s'kopia> [EMAIL PROTECTED]'kO.pja]
(no /l/ nativly)
> > Stockholm
<s'tokolm> [EMAIL PROTECTED]'tO.kOlm]
> > Warszawa
<warcava> ['war.Sa.Ba]
> > Vilnius
<wilnuws> ['wIl.nu\Us]
> > Zagreb
<saagrej> ['sAV.G\R\EG]
And the more trivial ones:
<am'sterdam> ["[EMAIL PROTECTED]'tEr.dam]
<atina> [a.'tI.na]
<helsinki> [h\El.'sIN.kI]
<helsing'fors> [h\El.'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<london> ['lOn.dOn]
<praha> ['pBR\)a.h\a]
<riga> ['rI.ga]
<roma> ['rO.ma]
<tallin> ['tal.lIn]
<sofia> ['sOf.ja]
<win> [wIn]
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (42)
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4. Re: Weekly Vocab #5.3 (original)
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:39 am (PDT)
Senjecas:
1. apples = abêlos [abêlis would be the apple tree]
I like to eat an apple at the end of my lunch break.
m-us abêl-om m-úsïo með-ámr-eð-cüiil-ôsïo cêêrcü-ôsïo êd-u pîîr-a.
I-NOM.s apple-ACC.s I-GEN.s mid-day-eat-pause-GEN.s end-GEN.s eat-
SUP like-IND
2. bread (unleavened) = vargênos
This bread is mouldy, I urgently need to buy a new one (sic).
vargên-os d-os tân-os ês-a. m-us cüêrï-u jûûn-om órµ-ë-v-' îîÿ-a.
bread-NOM.s this-NOM.s mold-NOM.s be-IND. I-NOM.s buy-SUP new-ACC.s
urge-EPEN-ADV-ELISION need-IND
3. ticket = qélt-ë-vââlos = pay-epen-leaf [new word]
bus = léuð-rêðnos = people wagon [new word]
In order to use the bus you must have a bus ticket.
léuð-rêðn-om é-naaûs-u toál-a, qélt-ë-vââl-os sem-ôsïo o ês-u cêl-a.
people-wagon-ACC.s in-boat-SUP (i.e., board) in.order.to-POSTP, pay-
EPEN-leaf-NOM.s one-GEN.s to be-SUP must-IND.
4. butter = qêrtos
Butter tastes very well (sic) on a fresh raisin roll.
qêrt-os µêdzo sáft-ë-várgen-l-ôsïo éna méÿ-u dzêês-os dzêês-a
butter-NOM.s fresh raisin-EPEN-bread-DIM-NOM.s on great-ADV taste-
NOM.s taste-IND
5. cheese = sêrdïos
tomâ£is = tomato [new word, borrowed from Nahuatl] (£ = /l_0/)
If you need something to eat quickly, you can make rice with melted
cheese and ketchup.
nús-i t-ús-ë sém-om óós-vi êd-u îîÿ-o, sém-us-ë stááj-serdï-ôsïo-cüe
tóma£-pelt-ôsïo-cüe súna orîîz-om rêêð-u mââq-a.
presume-CONJ you-NOM.s-EPEN something-ACC.s quick-ADV eat-SUP need-
SUBJ, one-NOM.s-EPEN melt-cheese-GEN.s-and tomato-sauce-GEN.s-and
with rice-ACC.s prepare-SUP can-IND
6. cream = rûqmos
Cream is made of milk. [The statement is not true, so I'm taking
it to mean something like "cream is taken from milk."]
Cream is skimmed from milk.
sém-us qlaxt-ôsïo ápa rûgm-om dûûr-a.
one-NOM.s milk-GEN.s from cream-ACC.s remove-IND
7. ink = pêxtüin; print = carve, sîîma
I need ink for my printer.
m-us m-úsïo siim-µérdzën-ôsï-' o pêx-tü-im îîÿ-a.
I-NOM.s I-GEN.s print-machine-GEN.s-ELISION to write-solution-ACC.s
need-IND
8. jam/marmelade = vruug-ârc-os (fruit-preserve-CL5.NOM.s) [new word]
Fruit jam when eaten outside is likely to attract wasps
b-u êd-aþ-os vruug-ârc-os µôvs-en mínï-vi dûc-u ês-a.
outside-ADV eat-PASS.PART-NOM.s fruit-preserve-NOM.s wasp-ACC.s
probable-ADV attract-SUP be-IND
9. milk = qlâxtos
You have to pay attention that the milk won't get sour.
sém-us, toál-i qlâxt-os-ë sûûr-o me, têµ-u cêl-a.
one-NOM.s so.that-CONJ milk-NOM.s sour-SUBJ not heed-SUP must-IND
10. noodles/pasta = gêlmos [new word]
Noodles like to boil over. [Conculture note: According to the
Senjecans, noodles are not sentient beings and therefore cannot like
anything.]
gêlm-os-ë vlêµ-u dêÿm-os ês-a.
pasta-NOM.s-EPEN boil.over-SUP apt-NOM.s be-IND
11. salad = vruuð-mîtsos (vegetable-mixture) [new word]
Salad is suitable as a side dish for almost anything.
vruuð-mîts-os sun-ed-os móstsu cüen-ôsïo o ðâvr-os ês-a.
vegetable-mix-NOM.s accompany-dish-NOM.s almost any-GEN.s for
suitable-NOM.s be-IND
12. sausage = âlïos
This is a sausage slices of which you put on your bread.
d-os t-us t-úsïo várgen-ôsïo éna n-ósïo sîîm-on stîîv-i álï-os ês-a.
this-NOM.s you-NOM.s you-GEN.s bread.GEN.s on it-GEN.s slice-ACC.p
put.REL sausage-NOM.s be-IND
13. soap = lôµtüis
The Federal Health Authority recommends to use soap.
uf-jôµ-as jeec-âsio jôµ-as, sém-us lôµ-tü-im nôdo, ârl-a.
principal-authority-NOM.s health-GEN.s authority-NOM.s one-NOM.s
wash-solution-ACC.s use-SUBJ recommend-IND
14. stamp = nes-dzêênos (secure-sign); this originally meant seal.
The postal service will refuse to deliver this letter because the
stamp is missing.
nésdzeen-ôsïo ég-ant-ôsïo, vénc-ë-jôµ-as vênc-om d-om dôôn-u pos âr-
a.
stamp-GEN.s lack-PRES.PART.-GEN.s dispatch-EPEN-authority-NOM.s
letter-ACC.s this-ACC.s give-SUP FUT.PART. refuse-IND
15. toilet paper = saan-ôlµïos (hygiene-paper) [new word]
I had my brother bring me a new roll of toilet paper.
m-us m-úsïo vrât-um n-úmë m-um o jûûn-om sáán-olµï-ôsi rêþ-omë vrênc-
u per 惃t-a.
I-NOM.s I-GEN.s brother-ACC.s he-ACC.s-EPEN I-ACC.s to new-ACC.s
hygiene-paper-GEN.s roll-ACC.s-EPEN bring-SUP PAST PART. cause-IND
carving, n. sîîmos = an object carved; simcêrdas = the art of
carving < sîîma = to carve.
bevel, v. dêÿma = t.v. bevel, chamfer; i.v. incline, slope, tend.
Used in #10 as adjective for "apt."
Charlie
Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Weekly Vocab #5.3 (original)
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:17 am (PDT)
Sorry for my English ...
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 11:51:28 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>This bread is mouldy, I urgently need to buy a new one (sic).
What's wrong with that? I meant a new loaf of bread. I guess one cannot say
it like that in English?
>Butter tastes very well (sic) on a fresh raisin roll.
OK, that has to be _good_, sorry, _to taste_ is a verb of perception which
of course requires an adjective not an adverb. I blame this on German: we
don't make any distinction between adjectives and adverbs, so both is _gut_
in this case.
C.
Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Weekly Vocab #5.3 (original)
Posted by: "Tim May" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:10 pm (PDT)
Carsten Becker wrote at 2006-09-16 10:49:41 (-0400)
> Sorry for my English ...
>
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 11:51:28 -0000, caeruleancentaur
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >This bread is mouldy, I urgently need to buy a new one (sic).
>
> What's wrong with that? I meant a new loaf of bread. I guess one
> cannot say it like that in English?
You have to say either "this loaf is mouldy, I need to buy a new one"
or "this bread is mouldy, I need to buy some more". (English mass
nouns differ in the extent to which they can be used as count nouns
meaning a portion or serving, so for other things, particularly
drinks, the structure you have there might be possible. But you'd
never call a loaf of bread "a bread", so it doesn't work.)
Messages in this topic (2)
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6. lykanthropos (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1))
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:52 am (PDT)
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Philip Newton writes:
[snip]
>>
>>"Lycanthrope" is a counter-example :) (lykos, wolf; anthropos, human)
>
>
> Funny -- I even (though I) had considered this when I stated the
> above. Confusion.
Certainly it is a counter example to 'man+wolf' *order*; but Henrik has
since explained: "By writing 'man-wolf', I meant 'man' modifying 'wolf'
in whatever order the particular language implements this."
I am not sure that in this respect Greek _lykanthropos_ is a counter
example. It is one of the less common (for ancient Greek) type of
compound where both parts are nouns. There are a few others. for example:
_iatromantis_ <-- iatros "physician, doctor" + mantis "prophet, seer'.
The noun is used as a name for both Apollo and Asklepios (Aesculapius).
As a name for Asklepios, it might be argued that "physician' is the head
noun, but for Apollo surely "seer" is more likely. In fact that compound
is surely a dvandva (or copulative) compound in which both elements have
equal claim to be the head, i.e. "physician and seer".
_ksiphomakhaira_ "sabre" <-- ksiphos "sword" + makhaira "dagger; sabre
(curved sword)". This is a different sort of compounding wherein each
elements acts as attribute to the other (there must be a name for this,
but I don not recall what it is). _ksiphos_ is a sword (which may be
straight or curved) and _makhaira_ has two meanings: "a short dagger",
"a sabre". Prefixing _ksipho-_ makes it clear which meaning of
_makhaira_ is intended; likewise, suffixing _-makhaira_ makes it clear
what shape sword we are talking about.
_theotauros_ <-- theos "god" + tauros "bull". A name given to Zeus. Is
this "god and bull"? As Zeus is always a god and only occasionally
assumes bull shape does it mean "bull-god" (i.e. "bull" is attribute of
"god")?
It could be argued that _lykanthropos_ is of the same type as
_theotauros_, i.e. _lykanthropos_ means a wolf who may assume human
form. Or it could be a dvandva compound like _iatromantis_, i.e. "wolf
and human".
But, of course, we also find compounds like _andropais_ "boy with the
mind of a man" <-- andr- (oblique stem of _ane:r_ 'man, adult male) +
_pais_ "child" (male or female). Here _pais_ is certainly the head, and
andro- the attribute, defining both the sex of the child and that the
child thinks like an adult. So _lykanthropos_ could be a human with
wolf-like tendencies.
Thus _lykanthropos_ could be 'wolf-man' (as Henrick finds werewolf is in
other languages), or 'man-wolf', or 'wolf and man' - darned Greeks ;-)
--
Ray
==================================
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http://www.carolandray.plus.com
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Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}
Messages in this topic (44)
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7a. Re: The "best" system of writing
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:30 pm (PDT)
--- John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> >
> >Any other criteria are, to me, of negliable significance and can be
> >ignored.
>
> Do you mean to exclude ease of learning explicitely or implicitely?
Ease of learning was left out intentionally. The kazoo is much easier to learn
to master than the violin, but that doesn't imply that the kazoo is a "better"
musical instrument than the violin.
> Because
> you could take this approach to its extreme and have different symbols for
> the 5 million most common sentences + individual word diacritics to deal
> with the rest... Then the writing system will be virtually impossible to
> learn, but it *would* be ridiculously efficient for a hypothetical fully
> taught reader. It's of no use if no fully taught readers exist, however.
> The fully taught writer would also probably not be all that efficient;
I doubt that the human mind would be that quick at picking out one glyph from
among 5 million. That's why I put reading efficiency above compactness. The
optimum balance would have to be determined experimentally, but I think it
would be mostly one symbol per word with some symbols for common short phrases
like "FYI", "IMHO", "FWIW", "PDQ", etc.
>
> John Vertical
>
-----------------
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> li [Gary Shannon] mi tulis la
>
> > What is the "best" system of writing?
<snip>> >
> > 1. Of first importance (to me) is reading efficiency. A thing
> > written once can
> > be read again and again, so the ease and quickness with which
> > it can be read
> > outweighs the ease of writing.
>
> I would tend to say they should be balanced. If writing isn't easy,
> it's possible that the writer may rush and perform a sloppy job which
> would render the end product difficult anyway.
Very true. On the other hand, if the writer expects to understood it is his
responsibility to write legibly. On the other-other hand, maybe everyone who
uses this languages types their notes into their pocket computer and the
printer produces perfectly formed printed copy.
>
> > 2. It should be relatively compact, without sacrificing
> > readability.
<snip>
>
> I found this could be done by making the symbols as simple as possible.
> Then they can be make small and be written quickly.
>
I agree. That's one thing I like about Shavian. What I don't like is that when
I read it I'm always hearing the writer's regional accent, which is annoying.
<snip>
> > it doesn't make a bit of difference whether those
> > shapes are constructed
> > from systematic phonetic elements or made up of arbitrary squiggles.
>
> Yes, but it's much easier to learn a phonetic system. Learning to read
> and write Hanzi/Kanji takes many years. Learning to write phonemically
> is something that could be picked up very quickly.
>
That's true, but perhaps the phonetic system could be the stepping stone to the
process of learning. Something like learning full phonetic spelling first, and
then after that is mastered at age 10, learning the "real" system of writing
which is based on full spelling, but more compact and efficient.
<snip>
> > We do pretty much the same thing with "kite", "light" and
> > "height" spelling the
> > long-I sound "i-e", "igh" and "eigh", which does a good job
> > of creating less
> > ambiguous word shapes.
>
> The differences in spelling are not there because to distinguish the
> words but are a legacy of a time when these words were pronounced
> differently.
>
Yes, of course. However, it is this chance "mutation" which is favored by
natural selection not for the reason it initially appeared, but for the "side
effect" it has on making different word shapes more distinct visually. If we
reformed spelling to make it more systematic and consistent it would have a
negative impact on maximum reading speed by making many words appear more
visually similar, and thus less readily distinguished at a glance.
--gary
Messages in this topic (5)
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7b. Re: The "best" system of writing
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:09 pm (PDT)
Gary -
Have you seen my NLF2DWS threads?
They aim at creating exactly such a system.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (5)
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8. Re: Laturslav (was: Hello! - introduction)
Posted by: "Santiago Matías Feldman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:41 pm (PDT)
> >...
> > Today, I'm working in two new conlangs set on this
> > Earth, more precisely in Western Europe. One is
> > Laturslav, basically a Romance language as regards
> > vocabulary, but Turkic as regards morphology and
> > syntax (agglutinating).
> >...
(Henrik Theiling):
> Very interesting. Do you have some examples? Since
> I've been doing a
> Romance lang myself now, I get even more interested
> in comparing it
> (and the whole continuum of Romance conlangs I've
> already looked into)
> to other people's work. :-)
> Is the grammar fully taken from or inspired by
> Turkic or did you
> evolve Latin into being agglutinative in some way
> that feels like
> Turkic? (There's this polysynthetic Romance natlang
> which they call
> 'French', so why not evolve Latin into something
> agglutinative?)
(Santiago Feldman):
Well, the idea is that these people spoke a Turkic
language before being conquered by the Romans and that
then they started speaking Latin with a heavy
influence of the aboriginal "substratum" (is that the
word in English?). And, unlike what happened in the
other Romance langs, Laturslav speakers retained the
agglutinative character of the aboriginal language
while incorporating a lot of vocabulary and some minor
grammatical traits from Latin.
So, for example, Laturslav has no grammatical gender
whatsoever (which is the norm in Turkic langs - or at
least in Turkish).
Laturslav has one form of the definite article, which
is just "la", and one for the indefinite, which is
"un".
Another important feature of Laturslav is the vowel
harmony.
Still another feature is that the word order is SOV.
So: (excuse me for the silly example, but it's just to
illustrate, :)
Tut persönne gros un doman vever vola.
Every person big a house-in to live wants.
(I'll have to learn the art of parsing, I know ;)
Every person wants to live in a big house.
"persönne" is the plural of "persön", so it is a 3r
person plural noun, which has "vola", third person
sing/pl (no distinction in 3rd person) of the verb
"volar" to want.
> >...
> > The other conlang still doesn't have a name, but
> the idea is a
> > non-Indo European language, absolutely unrelated
> to the rest of
> > languages of the world, but with some specialized
> lexis taken from
> > Latin, Ancient Greek and English, as most
> Europeans languages have
> > it.
> >...
(Henrik Theiling):
> Also interesting -- I'd also be interested in more
> information about
> its design goals, etc.
(Santiago Feldman):
What do you mean by "design goals"? Do you mean if it
is an artlang, an auxlang, etc? =)
If that's the case, it's an artlang. But, I still
don't get the exact meaning of that term in this
context. :P
Thank you for your interest, and I'll be watching for
your conlangs on the list. By the way, if you have a
webpage to have a taste of your Romlang, let me know.
Salut, amikne.
Santiago
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Messages in this topic (8)
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9. Another resource for filling out your lexicon
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:40 am (PDT)
I was stumbling around SIL's webpage recently when I came upon this:
http://www.sil.org/computing/ddp/DDP_downloads_tb.htm
It's part of the DDP, a suite of tools and resources for developing
dictionaries for minority languages, so there's probably other good stuff
there too. But the list of semantic domains available at that particular
page is what got my attention: it's a big comprehensive taxonomically
organized picture of semantic space, with a list of questions for eliciting
words in each semantic domain. The whole thing has 1793 nodes in the
taxonomy and 41889 English lexemes as examples.
Here's an example category (in raw but readable format):
\is 1.1.1
\sd Sun
\ixu 1.1
\ix 1.1.1.1 Moon
\ix 1.1.1.2 Star
\ix 1.1.1.3 Planet
\dd Use this domain for words related to the sun. The sun does three basic
things. It moves, it gives light, and it gives heat. These three actions are
involved in the
meanings of most of the words in this domain. Since the sun moves below the
horizon, many words refer to it setting or rising. Since the sun is above the
clouds, many words refer to it moving behind the clouds and the clouds
blocking its light. The sun's light and heat also produce secondary effects.
The sun
causes plants to grow, and it causes damage to things.
\cf Light; Shadow; Time of the day
\qu (1) What words refer to the sun?
\ex sun, solar, sol, daystar, our star
\qu (2) What words refer to how the sun moves?
\ex rise, set, cross the sky, come up, go down, sink
\qu (3) What words refer to the time when the sun rises?
\ex dawn, sunrise, sunup, daybreak, cockcrow
\xe We got up before <dawn>, in order to get an early start.
\qu (4) What words refer to the time when the sun is at its highest point?
\ex noon, zenith
\qu (5) What words refer to the time when the sun sets?
\ex sunset, dusk, sundown, twilight, eventide
\qu (6) What words refer to when the sun is shining?
\ex shine, sunny, bright, give light, be sunshiny, daytime
\qu (7) What words refer to the sun shining through the clouds?
\ex come out, break through (the clouds), go behind (a cloud)
\qu (8) What words describe where the sun is shining?
\ex sunlit, be (out) in the sun, lit by the sun, shine on, be in the
sunlight, sunny (spot)
\qu (9) What words describe when or where the sun doesn't shine?
\ex shade, eclipse of the sun, sunless, shady, shadow, eclipse (v)
\qu (10) What words refer to the light of the sun?
\ex sunlight, ray, sunshine, beam, light, sunbeam, radiance, glow, sparkle,
glisten, glare
\qu (11) What words describe the brightness of the sun?
\ex bright, intense, brilliant, blinding, glaring, glistening, luminous, dim
\qu (12) What refer to the sun heating things?
\ex warm, heat, dry
\qu (13) What else does the sun do?
\ex looks down on
\qu (14) What words describe the damage done by sunlight?
\ex sunburn, sunstroke, suntan, tan, heatstroke, heat prostration, sun
damage, fading from the sun, bleached by the sun
\qu (15) What do people use to protect themselves from the sun?
\ex sunglasses, shade tree, suntan lotion, awning, sun umbrella, parasol,
sunbonnet, hat, visor
\qu (16) What words are used of telling time by the sun?
\ex sundial, angle of the sun, sun-clock, shoot the sun, position of the sun
\qu (17) What words refer to using the power of the sun?
\ex solar energy, solar power, solar panel
\dt 29/Mar/2006
Building your lexicon systematically according to some sort of taxonomy
strikes me as a good idea, in that it makes explicit the various divisions
of semantic space that your lang's lexemes are creating, especially if
you're intending to have these divisions be coherently different to the way
familiar languages do it. But I've never done this myself, except in a few
small domains, like colors. Has anyone?
Alex
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