There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. OT: Re: Massive plagiarism accusation
From: taliesin the storyteller
2a. Re: Stress placement systems
From: R A Brown
2b. Re: Stress placement systems
From: Dirk Elzinga
3a. Re: Massive plagiarism accusation
From: René Uittenbogaard
3b. Re: Massive plagiarism accusation
From: Christopher Bates
3c. Re: Massive plagiarism accusation
From: Carsten Becker
3d. Re: Massive plagiarism accusation
From: Wesley Parish
4a. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] 2nd LCC: reminder re location
From: Lars Finsen
4b. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] 2nd LCC: reminder re location
From: David J. Peterson
4c. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] 2nd LCC: reminder re location
From: Sai Emrys
5a. Re: Implied verbs
From: Philip Newton
5b. Re: Implied verbs
From: Andreas Johansson
6. Re: Laturslav (was: Hello! - introduction)
From: Henrik Theiling
7a. "gender" systems = vowel harmony coalescing with stress changes?
From: Wesley Parish
7b. Re: "gender" systems = vowel harmony coalescing with stress changes?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
8a. Re: International_Talk_Like_a_Pirate_Day
From: Carsten Becker
8b. Re: International_Talk_Like_a_Pirate_Day
From: Larry Sulky
8c. Re: International_Talk_Like_a_Pirate_Day
From: Carsten Becker
9a. Re: Difficult language ideas
From: Leigh Richards
9b. Re: Difficult language ideas
From: Sai Emrys
10a. Re: Gmane
From: Philippe Debar
10b. Re: Gmane
From: H. S. Teoh
11. Re: Transcription exercise
From: Paul Roser
12. Pantun (was: Implied verbs)
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
13. Re: lykanthropos (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1))
From: Andreas Johansson
Messages
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1. OT: Re: Massive plagiarism accusation
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:43 am (PDT)
* And Rosta said on 2006-09-21 02:05:32 +0200
> The plagiarist is only fourteen years old. Fourteen year-olds must be
> forgiven things far more egregious than the naive plagiarism of conscripts.
> And it not nice for grown-ups to be snide to children. So give her a break,
> everybody.
Don't read the topics at the zbb then. Talk about drama: threatening
with lawsuits, permanent shunning etc. and lots of young people going
"I'm also that young and I would neever..." Interesting study of human
behaviour anyway, espec. those who didn't get their scripts plagiarized
but insisted on knowing what the proper reaction was...
t.
Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: Stress placement systems
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:24 am (PDT)
H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 07:55:04PM +0100, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>>It appears in fact to have been similar to the pitch system of Vedic
>>Sanskrit. But alas the Greeks were less clear in their descriptions
>>than the ancient Indian phoneticians were.
>
>
> That's very interesting. Perhaps they are relics of a pitch accent
> system in PIE?
That would seem to suggest it. But, alas, I have not kept up with the
latest thinking on PIE. I note that 'Stress System Database' gives:
{quote}
Indo-European (protolanguage) 12..89/1L Halle & Vergnaud
1987:72
Syllable "weight" determined by lexical accent
{unquote}
I note "weight" is put between quotes which suggests to me that it has
nothing to do with syllabic quantity. But there is no reference to a
pitch accent.
Maybe others on the list are more informed regarding PIE word accent.
[snip]
>>
>>I don't know of the top of my head, but they were originally
>>introduced by the Alexandrian grammarians of the 2nd cent BCE as aids
>>to pronounce Homer correctly (Epic dialect);
>
> How much does Homer differ from Attic in this respect (accents)?
Much the same - which, I guess, is why conventionally texts in other
dialects, e.g. Doric, are normally printed with the same accentuation.
It is assumed that anciently all dialects had much the same pitch accent
system.
[snip]
>
>>As for Aeolic, we are told by IIRC more than one authority that they
>>treated all words according to the 'recessive accent' system of Greek
>>verbs.
>
> Cool. I wonder what caused the differentiation.
Simplification, I suspect.
Besides verbs, there were also some sets of nouns & adjectives that used
the recessive accent, and many vocatives did also. I guess the Aeolians
simply extended this to all words, thus dispensing with the apparently
arbitrary lexical positionings of the pitch.
We should perhaps explain for those who know little or no ancient Greek
that the term 'recessive accent' referred to a system whereby the pitch
accent a word was placed as far back from the end as the final _vowel_
(*not* syllable) allowed, i.e. if final vowel was short, the accent was
third from the end, and if it was long the accent was on the preceding
vowel. Diphthongs were normally treated as long, but _final_ -ai and -oi
were treated as short.
The recessive accent was, therefore, phonologically determined. Of
course when the system of long and short vowels broke down during the
Hellenistic period, the verb accent of Koine remained in the same place,
but it was no longer phonologically conditioned and we have a
morphologically conditioned accent.
That stress accent of modern Greek is lexically & morphologically
determined (and not determined by syllabic weight).
>
>>>Also, how confident are we that Koine continues to use pitch
>>>accents?
>>
>>I am sure the Greeks themselves were still using pitch accent and I
>>suspect the more discerning L2 speakers tried to do things properly -
>>but the change took place during this period.
>
> Ahhh, I see. So the foreigners substituted stress for pitch, and
> eventually the natives also started adopting it. Hmm, this gives me
> con-world ideas. :-)
Sort of - but I suspect there was a more complicated inter-reaction
between L1 and L2 speakers over the whole period. But I feel sure the
internationalization of Greek was a main factor in bringing about this
change.
[snip]
>>Graffiti at Pompeii where some Greek words are written in Roman script
>>show quite clearly that fricativization had already occurred in
>>colloquial speech by the middle of the 1st cent CE.
>
> Wow, this is interesting. I hadn't expected it to have happened this
> early. I remember reading a hypothesis that perhaps it had begun even in
> Classical times: is this plausible, or do we know for sure that it came
> later?
There are hints that it may have begun in some dialects as early as
Classical times. For example:
- the Athenians mocked the Spartans because they said things like 'sios'
instead of 'theos' "god". That is, the Lakonian dialect had _s_ where
Attic and others has _th_. I has been speculated that this Lakonian _s_
was in fact [T].
- there is some evidence that in Boeotian, Elean & Pamphylian the voiced
plosives had developed a fricative pronunciation by the 4th cent BCE.
(e.g. using vau ('digamma') where we would expect beta).
[snip]
> Now, something I've always wondered about is why [p^h] fricativizes to
> [f] rather than [P]. Or perhaps [P] was an intermediate form that
> eventually became [f]?
It may well have been, we have no way of telling.
>
>
>>As for stress accent - we do not have clear evidence that stress
>>accent was the norm until the 4th cent CE; but there are indications
>>as early as the 2nd cent CE that transition from pitch to stress had
>>begun.
>
>
> I see. So basically it started around Hellenistic times, or going into
> the Byzantine period.
Yep - by the Byzantine period the stress system was the norm as far as
we can tell.
[snip]
>>
>>But the Erasmian pronunciation, though considerably closer, to the
>>ancient, is only a makeshift. Whether one uses Erasmian or modern
>>pronunciation, it is normal to use the modern stress system.
>
>
> That's true. How confident are we about the actual values of vowels in
> Classical Greek, though? (I understand the reconstructed values are not
> quite the same as the Erasmic?)
Correct - as I understand it, Erasmus's reconstruction was closer to
Koine than Classical Attic. We cannot, of course, be 100% confident
about any ancient reconstruction but the evidence for the approximate
vowel & diphthong values of Attic is fairly strong. I would suggest
getting hold of Sidney Allen's "Vox Graeca" (ISBN 0521040213 [hardback],
0521335558 [paperback]).
> Now, during my Koine course, I was told that there is evidence even in
> the New Testament itself that itacization was starting to happen (e.g.
> with some words misspelling iota for eta).
Well, |ei| (epsilon-iota) had become the same as 'long iota' [i:] by the
3rd century BCE. The process had clearly begun earlier as we see
confusions in spelling between |ei| ~ |i| in the late 4th cent BCE.
AFAIK confusion in spelling between eta & iota don't occur until about
150 CE,
> I'm curious about the extent
> of this, and whether the loss of the optative has something to do with
> the collapse of /oi/ to [i].
/oi/ became /y/ first. Confusion between |oi| and |y| (upsilon) is
certainly found in the 3rd cent CE; there is evidence that the change of
/oi/ to /y/ had already occurred in Boeotian as early as the 3rd cent BCE.
But AFAIK there is no evidence of confusion of /oi/ and /i:/ in Koine
until the unroundng of /y/ in the Byzantine period, probably around the
end of the millennium CE.
I suspect restricted use of the optative in Koine (it is used in the New
Testament) was part of process of simplification. in fact in Classical
language:
- it could be used instead of indicatives in subordinate clauses if the
main verb was past. writers like Xenophon did this, but others like
Plato & Thucydides did not and simply used the indicative.
- it could be used instead of the subjunctive in subordinate clauses if
the main verb was past. Writers like Thucydides ignored this.
- it was used in remote or unlikely future conditions (If I were to
become president of the USA, I would ... etc ).
- to express wishes relating to the future (Oh that he would come!)
Quite simply the optional uses of optative in subordinate clauses after
main verbs in past tense was simply dropped. Why keep a complicated
option when a simpler choice is available?
The use of the optative in conditions is rare in Koine - the use of
_ean_ plus subjunctive for the protasis & simple future for apodosis
suffices for any future condition. It still holds on to express wishes.
But such a limited use was almost certain to lead to the dropping of the
mood and other ways of expressing wishes being developed.
> Also, I understand that the iota subscript wasn't actually used until
> Byzantine times, correct?
Correct - it was a Byzantine practice.
> In uncial writing it was written as long vowel
> + iota --- my question is, was it actually pronounced in Koine, or had
> it become irrelevant already? What about in Classical times?
Certainly pronounced in Classical times. But confusion in spelling
between eta-iota and epsilon-iota occurs as early as the 4th cent BCE;
it seems that with long-alpha+iota and omega-iota the iota had become
silent by the 2nd cent BCE.
[snip]
> How well-described is the Vedic system?
I'm not certain, but Panini IIRC does give rather clear descriptions
that is ever found by the Alexandrian grammarians.
> Recently, through learning
> Russian, I'm beginning to appreciate just how much nuance there is in
> actual speech, that is never recorded in the textbooks. If one went
> merely by textbook descriptions and second-hand information, one would
> pronounce Russian very strangely indeed! And were it not for actual,
> living, native speakers, one could be easily deluded to think that one's
> pronunciation is quite accurate.
:-)
> So now I'm wondering about just how
> much information has been preserved about these ancient tongues, or how
> wildly inaccurate our attempted reconstructions are. :-)
Exactly!
Alas the neither the Greeks nor the Romans were the world's best
phoneticians. In the case of Latin we do have great deal more
information (partly because of the different way that the Romancelangs
have treated certain sounds), but with Greek it would be IMO a very
foolish person who would claim complete accuracy. I am quite sure that
our attempted reconstructions would indeed sound very strange to Greeks,
whether in the Classical period or the Koine (even tho, of course, in
the Koine there was more regional variation :)
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}
Messages in this topic (13)
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2b. Re: Stress placement systems
Posted by: "Dirk Elzinga" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:26 pm (PDT)
On 9/20/06, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dirk Elzinga wrote:
> > For what it's worth, I just looked in Hayes 1995, and of Ancient Greek
> > he says (p 181): "Ancient Greek [has Fijian-like stress] in the
>
> Thanks - it doesn't change my opinion :)
I didn't think it would. But it does show that the database
maintainers probably paid undue attention to Hayes (1995) and didn't
do any checking of their own.
> > According to Hayes, in Modern Greek "Main stress is lexically
> > determined; limited to one of the last three syllables." (p 204)
>
> Yep - it is limited to one of the last three syllables. I think it would
> be more accurate to say it is lexically & morphologically determined.
> One thing is certain: it is not in any way conditioned by syllabic
> weight. Clearly a Syllable Priority Code is not going to work for modern
> Greek.
>
> My own feeling is that using a SPC to describe every language with word
> stress is not going to work.
I agree. I would actually want to *exclude* all systems that are
lexical and/or morphological.
It is perhaps significant that the database
> does not include modern Greek.
But Russian is *included*, and it is presumably a stress system which
is lexically and morphologically determined, just as you claim for
modern Greek. Clearly more homework needs to be done on the part of
the database maintainers.
If it is really going to be a Stress
> System Database, then it seems to me that it will have to use a code
> system that includes languages where syllabic weight is not relevant to
> stress. IMO at present it does not use a systematic way to describe all
> stress systems.
As I said above, I would want to exclude all non-phonological stress
systems. The remaining database, limited as it is, would still be a
useful resource, if sufficient attention were paid to accuracy and
fact-checking.
> Ray
Dirk
Messages in this topic (13)
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3a. Re: Massive plagiarism accusation
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:49 am (PDT)
Also, apparently she apologized for what she did:
http://www.xanga.com/blue_frog88/520869209/apologies.html
René
Messages in this topic (12)
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3b. Re: Massive plagiarism accusation
Posted by: "Christopher Bates" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:18 am (PDT)
René Uittenbogaard wrote:
> Also, apparently she apologized for what she did:
>
> http://www.xanga.com/blue_frog88/520869209/apologies.html
>
> René
>
Yes, she did, but then she started doing it again. You don't admit you
were wrong then carry on regardless.
Messages in this topic (12)
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3c. Re: Massive plagiarism accusation
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:31 am (PDT)
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 01:05:32 +0100, And Rosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<< The plagiarist is only fourteen years old. Fourteen year-olds must be
forgiven things far more egregious than the naive plagiarism of conscripts.
And it not nice for grown-ups to be snide to children. So give her a break,
everybody. >>
It *is* nasty, but so was her behaviour: She apologized but then started
again plagiarizing stuff, so she kind of wasted a second chance -- it is
not that we didn't give her one. Many people were disappointed and reacted
accordingly when they learnt that Brittany neglected her promise. Also, she
was *very* reluctant in removing the plagiates from her blog pages. So the
rather harsh reactions of some ZBB members are kind of justified IMO.
Yours,
Carsten (ZBB: guitarplayer/Dampantingaya)
Messages in this topic (12)
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3d. Re: Massive plagiarism accusation
Posted by: "Wesley Parish" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:34 am (PDT)
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:05, And Rosta wrote:
> The plagiarist is only fourteen years old. Fourteen year-olds must be
> forgiven things far more egregious than the naive plagiarism of conscripts.
> And it not nice for grown-ups to be snide to children. So give her a break,
> everybody.
Okay, the Red Queen's verdict is "Off with her head!"
>
> --And. (Aged 39.)
>
> Sai Emrys, On 20/09/2006 09:32:
> > I'm just conveying the message to this community FYI; don't shoot please!
> >
> > See ZBB at links below (and lots of others if you want to look around,
> > but these two will cover the topic quite well).
> >
> > - Sai
> >
> > http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?t=18415
> > http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?t=18066
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-------------
Mau ki ana, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku ki ana, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
Messages in this topic (12)
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4a. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] 2nd LCC: reminder re location
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:39 am (PDT)
Den 21. sep. 2006 kl. 05.40 skrev Sai Emrys:
>
> It's late September, and we need to figure out where the next LCC will
> be held within a month or two.
Wow, what are these LCCs? Are they big and is there some particular
requirement as to on which continent they should be held?
LEF
Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] 2nd LCC: reminder re location
Posted by: "David J. Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:59 am (PDT)
Lars wrote:
<<
Wow, what are these LCCs? Are they big and is there some particular
requirement as to on which continent they should be held?
>>
Here's some info on the first one:
http://conlangs.berkeley.edu/
http://dedalvs.free.fr/notes/lcc1.php
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] 2nd LCC: reminder re location
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:51 am (PDT)
> Wow, what are these LCCs? Are they big and is there some particular
> requirement as to on which continent they should be held?
In terms of technical requirements:
* conference space for at least 40 people for 2-2.5 days
* mics, digital videocameras, one speaker, table, projector, etc
* food
* near an airport
* near hotels
The best location for everyone would be east coast US, but we
certainly can consider others. I'm afraid the pond hop may reduce the
number of attendees considerably, though.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Implied verbs
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:55 am (PDT)
On 9/20/06, Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not sure whether this is what you are looking for, but German and
> Dutch frequently drop the main verb if an auxiliary is present.
[snip examples]
What I thought of when reading those examples was
Ich muss mal!
I must <part>!
"mal" is a particle that literally means "once", but I'm not sure
whether or how to translate it here.
At any rate, it's a very common euphemism (used especially by
children) for "I have to go to the toilet".
Occasionally, it's expanded, a common pattern being
Ich muss mal für kleine Mädchen/für kleine Jungs.
I must <part> for little girls/for little boys.
"I have to go to the toilet." (used by women/men)
A rather jocular form, I think -- but also without an explicit main verb.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (8)
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5b. Re: Implied verbs
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:47 pm (PDT)
Quoting Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi!
>
> Gary Shannon writes:
> > Do any natlangs make frequent use of implied verbs? ...
> >...
>
> I'm not sure whether this is what you are looking for, but German and
> Dutch frequently drop the main verb if an auxiliary is present.
> Depending on language and dialect, the degree of grammaticality
> differs. E.g., in my dialect it would be correct to ask:
>
> Kann ich noch ein Bier?
> can/may I another beer?
> 'have' is dropped.
>
> In Standard German, it would be ok to say:
>
> Sollen wir in die Stadt?
> Shall we into the city?
> 'go' is dropped.
You can do similarly in Swedish:
Ska vi till staden ?
Shall we into city-the ?
Some main verb indication motion is at least diachronically being dropped.
Andreas
Andreas
Messages in this topic (8)
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6. Re: Laturslav (was: Hello! - introduction)
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:48 am (PDT)
Hi!
Santiago Matías Feldman writes:
>...
> Yes, of course. My design goals for Laturslav are:
>
> -a very logical language (with approximately the same
> degree of logicalness as that of Turkish)
> -very analytical (agglutinative lgs tend to be so)
> -very regular (there's only one irregular verb -to be)
>...
Ah, I see. Why is 'to be' irregular? I mean, you may construct
anything, of course, but with a regular copula the language would be
even more, well, regular. :-)
>...
> > http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s17/
>
> (Santiago Feldman):
>
> I've had a look at it and it seems that you have a
> very good knowledge of Latin. ...
*cough* Well, much is from books I read specifically for this conlang.
Many people here have a for more founded knowledge than me, really.
>...
> I have one
> question about your conlang: Have you "made up" some traits out of
> the blue, without justifying them, or have you thought everything
> clearly so that every aspect of the lg is derived from an
> identifiable source?
>...
Nothing I did is without explanation -- I try to only phenomena that
either happened in North Germanic or Romance, or are very easily
explained. Those that did not happen, i.e., those I made up, are
things for adjusting Latin to the proposed sound shifts. It just does
not fit perfectly so since Latin is not Germanic, it is clear that
there must be some things that just did not happen this way. Examples
are the f > T shift, the voiced plosive > voiced fricative shifts and
some vowel adjustments. Mainly this all happens at the time my Romans
reach Scandinavia, i.e., during the start of Latin being used by
Scandinavian tongues.
Apart from that, not unfrequently consonant clusters that emerge
during shifting Latin did not occur in Germanic (or were very seldom
and behaved irregularly) and then I must decide what would be the most
probably way they behave regularly.
Otherwise, I try to stick to Icelandic language history.
Of course, the selection of the lexicon entries and of the parts of
grammar are often arbitrary since there is nothing this can be derived
from. That's just the conlang part. :-)
> > Also, maybe you want to use your conlang in a Relay
> > game? ...
>
> It would be a pleasure to participate!!
> Count on me for that :)
>...
Accidentally, I just finished the sign-up page:
http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay14.html
The rules have not been discussed on the Relay list, so things might
change. These are simply the rules for the previous relay.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (11)
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7a. "gender" systems = vowel harmony coalescing with stress changes?
Posted by: "Wesley Parish" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:39 am (PDT)
Hi. I just thought that is a reasonable explanation for "gender" in
Indo-European languages. And probably in other "gendered" language families
such as the Afro-Asiatic family.
Are there any books, articles, etc, that ask this sort of question?
Thanks
Wesley Parish
--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-------------
Mau ki ana, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku ki ana, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: "gender" systems = vowel harmony coalescing with stress changes?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:47 am (PDT)
Hallo!
Agratara Wesley Parish:
> Hi. I just thought that is a reasonable explanation for "gender" in
> Indo-European languages. And probably in other "gendered" language families
> such as the Afro-Asiatic family.
I see no connection between gender on one hand and stress and vowel harmony
on the other. Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic have gender, but they don't
have vowel harmony. Uralic and Altaic have vowel harmony but no gender.
I frankly don't understand what is your point.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: International_Talk_Like_a_Pirate_Day
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:26 am (PDT)
On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:18:18 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Pirate language tomorrow.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Talk_Like_a_Pirate_Day
Yarrrr, ye Talke like a Pirate Daye is over for a coupl'a dayes, butte ...
I just wanted to notice for the record that it hasn't caught on yet in
Germany. Is it an anglophone-only joke?
C.
Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: International_Talk_Like_a_Pirate_Day
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:36 am (PDT)
Apparently German pirates were never very successful. Their pointy
helmets were forever getting caught in the sails, making them poor
boarders and plunderers.
Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: International_Talk_Like_a_Pirate_Day
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:29 am (PDT)
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:21:50 -0400, Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Apparently German pirates were never very successful. Their pointy
>helmets were forever getting caught in the sails, making them poor
>boarders and plunderers.
Ho, but there was at least Klaus St�rtebecker!
C.
Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: Difficult language ideas
Posted by: "Leigh Richards" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:35 am (PDT)
On 9/21/06, Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One question:
>
> What exactly do you mean by "ambiguous"?
>
> It's a bloody hard problem depending on how you define it, especially
> if you consider that it is inherently impossible to eliminate
> ambiguity from a symbolic language.
Language-wise, I mean syntactic ambiguity. I'm not trying to eliminate
even that, but only to make it unlikely that a given sentence can be
parsed in more than one way. The 'Time flies like an arrow' sort of
example is mostly what I want to avoid. As for semantics, I also want
to make it easy (with as little circumlocution as possible) to clarify
meaning.
Messages in this topic (26)
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9b. Re: Difficult language ideas
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:35 am (PDT)
> Language-wise, I mean syntactic ambiguity. I'm not trying to eliminate
> even that, but only to make it unlikely that a given sentence can be
> parsed in more than one way. The 'Time flies like an arrow' sort of
> example is mostly what I want to avoid. As for semantics, I also want
> to make it easy (with as little circumlocution as possible) to clarify
> meaning.
FWIW that example's not ambiguous when spoken, due to stress patterns.
Is that sufficient for your purposes? It would also fit your desire
for minor changes (eg stress) to create major semantic shifts.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (26)
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10a. Re: Gmane
Posted by: "Philippe Debar" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:11 am (PDT)
Okay.
I don't see any real opposition to my Gmane idea. I propose to subscribe the
list to the Gmane gateway sometimes next week, with the following options :
* Mailing list email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
* [short] Description: Conlang is a mailing list for discussing constructed
and artificial languages.
* Posting permissions: Posting allowed (default)[note : Gmane has some
well-thought spam-fighting requirements for posting, which - in my
experience - work quite well]
* Encrypt addresses: yes [note: protect against spam the email address of
people who post through Gmane]
* Spam tagging: yes
* Mailing list software: listserv
* Group Name [Gmane newsgroup name for the list]:
gmane.science.linguistics.conlang [I propose that because the most similar
subject in the Gmane hierarchy is: gmane.science.linguistics.lojban.jboske]
* Project URL: http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A0=conlang
* Language: English
* Localisation: No
* The Mail Archive: ??? I'd say No as the list is already in the mail
archive through Y!
BTW, it is possible to import all the list archives: http://gmane.org/import.php
Sincerely,
--
Philippe Debar
Newbie conlanger (that is just interest and many ideas, no conlang yet)
Messages in this topic (12)
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10b. Re: Gmane
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:09 am (PDT)
On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 10:07:21AM -0400, Philippe Debar wrote:
[...]
> * Project URL: http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A0=conlang
[...]
> * The Mail Archive: ??? I'd say No as the list is already in the mail
> archive through Y!
[...]
Listserv is the authoritative archive (as you have listed the URL
above). I don't think we should rely on Yahoo!.
T
--
They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work. -- Russian saying
Messages in this topic (12)
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11. Re: Transcription exercise
Posted by: "Paul Roser" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:40 am (PDT)
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:02:27 -0500, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Herman Miller's Virelli is one of the few conlangs I've seen with a
>> distinction between /hl, l/ and /hL, L/ (where L is the palatal lateral
>> - HM uses a cedilla or something under the palatal phones).
>
>It shóuld technically be a comma below, but I use the precomposed ļ
>character for convenience. Using l̦ (with a comma-below diacritic) might
>not show up in some browsers and email programs.
>
>> I think that the distinction is more audible when there is a very clear
>> front/palatal vs back/velar distinction between the two.
>
>Or if there are additional clues to the point of articulation, such as
>palatal off-glides. Lindiga distinguishes between alveolar and retroflex
>lateral fricatives. I think this might be an easier distinction to hear
>than alveolar vs. palatal, but it's also helped by the allophonic
>variation of the vowels in the vicinity of retroflex consonants.
I'd forgotten about Lindiga - the rhotacism of the vowel (especially
preceding a retroflex) would be a very salient clue (as I'd assume it would
be in Toda). I think that a very strongly articulated dorsopalatal lateral
fric might also have a palatal onglide that would make it sufficiently distinct.
One thing I've noticed about lateral fricatives is that I always make them
bilaterally - with a medial obstruction and air escaping on both sides -
whereas some languages have been described as unilateral - air escaping on
one side. When I make unilateral fricatives they tend to all sound very
similar, regardless of where the primary POA is (and I can make a retroflex
unilateral fricative only with great difficulty).
--Bfowol
Messages in this topic (48)
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12. Pantun (was: Implied verbs)
Posted by: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:37 am (PDT)
Hi Gary, Roger et al,
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 Roger Mills wrote:
>
> Gary Shannon wrote:
> > Do any natlangs make frequent use of implied verbs?
>
> Malay/Indonesian, to some extent-- with preps. of motion or location:
> ibu ke/pasar (mother to/market) 'mother is going to the market'
> ibu di/pasar (mother at/market) 'mother is at the market'
>
> The second is especially common, there being no good equivalent
> of "to be"
> (ada ~adalah are quite formal).
>
> and the very common greeting--
> Mau (or, kau) kemana? (want [you] to/where) 'where are you going?'
Seconded. "be" and "go" are the verbs most often elided in Malay.
Or, in informal English, an exasperated parent might say to a child:
What now?
short for:
What do you want now?
or perhaps:
What's the matter now?
These are cases where more than the verb is implied.
> but not quite in the way your examples work, I think.
>
> I don't know if this is valid or not-- it strikes me as perhaps
> "literary/poetic"--
> dari hutan, tiga singa 'from the forest, (came) 3 lions'
/* begin long digression to discuss the 'pantun' form of poetry */
This strikes me as the perfect paradigm of a line from a "sajak"
(verse poem) and more particularly, from a "pantun" - antiphonal
rhymed quatrains (*) which were for centuries the main medium
of contests in literary skill between rival villages.
An ulterior purpose of such contests was, of course, to allow
young marriageable persons extended opportunities to size up
prospective partners. The first couplet would enunciate a
metaphor, and the second would apply it to the ever-important
matters of good manners and right conduct. A pantun which
replied to the opposition's and defeated its point with a stronger
(deeper, wiser, more moral) overriding point was judged specially
good.
Such a pantun match could last for hours, each side seeking
to overmatch the other - rather like a debate with an unlimited
right of reply - until one side, unable to extemporise (or perhaps
recall) a fitting response to the last challenge, conceded "kalah"
- defeat. At which point the feasting could begin in earnest ...
(*) sometimes couplets, sometimes double or quadruple quatrains,
but almost overwhelmingly, single quatrains with rhyme scheme
ABAB.
Here's a modern pantun illustrating the metaphor and explication
approach of most pantun:
Semua orang bergelang tangan,
Saya seorang bergelang kaki,
Semua orang berkata jangan,
Saya seorang menurut hati.
Bracelets are worn by all and sundry,
With my anklets, though, I would not part,
Many - oh many - have sought to stop me,
Though all alone, I followed my heart. (&)
(&) taken from http://tinyurl.com/rxv2r
The English translation is by the author, and is far from literal.
That would be more like this:
Everyone wears bracelets,
I alone wear anklets;
Everyone says "don't",
I alone follow my heart .
(Well, actually, "hati" means "liver" ... but it is the metaphoric seat
of the emotions for Malay-speakers, just as the heart is for
English-speakers.)
I ran quickly thru my collection of pantuns (which includes those
of Wilkinson & Winstedt, Singapore 1914), but without spotting
a verbless sentence in the style of your:
dari hutan, tiga singa
but it's very tempting to write one ... the structure is quite
authentically pantun-like, in rhythm and substance. Let's see
now:
Dari hutan, dua singa,
Dilangit malam, tujuh bintang.
Dialam sari, dua telinga,
Diakhir nanti, dengar tak tertentang.
From the jungle, lions two,
In the night sky, seven stars.
In daily life, one's ears but two,
In the life to come, hear from afar.
No, that's pathetic. ;-) There are, however, many *good* pantun
on the Internet. Ah, here's one:
Ruku-ruku dari Peringgit,
Teras jati bertalam-talam;
Rindu saya bukan sedikit,
Nyaris mati semalam-malam.
(Wilkinson & Winstedt: 205)
Sweet basil (comes) from (far) Portugal,
Heartwood of teak holds many a tray;
My longing (for you) is not just a little,
Almost it kills me, each night and day.
(My translation.) The connections may at times seem tenuous,
in the extreme; but the reader needs to know that "jati" (teak)
used attributively is a metaphor meaning "genuine".
Here's a modern one with verbless phrases for the first two
lines; I don't know whether to analyse them simply as nominal
phrases, or as vocatives:
Pulau Pandan jauh ke tengah
Gunung Daik bercabang tiga
Hancur badan dikandung tanah
Budi yang baik di kenang juga (^)
Pandanus Island way out in the ocean
Daik Mountain with its threefold peak
Perish the body contained in the coffin
Memories of character never grow weak
(^) Found online at: http://tinyurl.com/pkdzb and translated
by me.
See also http://www.pantun.com/ for more pantun.
/* end long digression to discuss the 'pantun' form of poetry */
I thought perhaps some members might find this ramble
about pantun (a) informative and (b) suggestive of possible
directions for literature in their conlangs. Also, it touches
in some slight measure on Gary's original question.
Regards,
Yahya
--
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13. Re: lykanthropos (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1))
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:51 pm (PDT)
Quoting R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Henrik Theiling wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > Philip Newton writes:
> [snip]
> >>
> >>"Lycanthrope" is a counter-example :) (lykos, wolf; anthropos, human)
> >
> >
> > Funny -- I even (though I) had considered this when I stated the
> > above. Confusion.
>
> Certainly it is a counter example to 'man+wolf' *order*; but Henrik has
> since explained: "By writing 'man-wolf', I meant 'man' modifying 'wolf'
> in whatever order the particular language implements this."
>
> I am not sure that in this respect Greek _lykanthropos_ is a counter
> example. It is one of the less common (for ancient Greek) type of
> compound where both parts are nouns. There are a few others. for example:
[snip examples]
I know basically jack of Old English, but is it possible that 'werewolf' itself
is originally a dvanda?
Andreas
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