There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Gmane
From: Henrik Theiling
2. Re: Implied verbs
From: Lars Finsen
3. Re: lykanthropos (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1))
From: Dirk Elzinga
4. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] 2nd LCC: reminder re location
From: Lars Finsen
5. Re: "gender" systems = vowel harmony coalescing with stress changes?
From: Eric Christopherson
6a. The biggest number you know in your conlang
From: Remi Villatel
6b. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
From: caeruleancentaur
6c. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6d. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
From: Herman Miller
6e. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
From: Roger Mills
6f. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
From: Andreas Johansson
6g. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
From: Christopher Bates
7. Progressive tense
From: caeruleancentaur
8. Weekly Vocab #1.1.4 (repost #1)
From: Henrik Theiling
9. Re: Stress placement systems
From: R A Brown
Messages
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1. Re: Gmane
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:55 pm (PDT)
Hi!
Philippe Debar writes:
> I don't see any real opposition to my Gmane idea. I propose to subscribe the
> list to the Gmane gateway sometimes next week, with the following options :
>...
After reading the relevant discussion that was on this list a few
years ago and the posts that were made on the list now, and after
throughly considering the advantages and disadvantages, I came to the
conclusion that we do _not_ need a Gmane gateway.
First of all, I will not allow posting to this list without
subscribing to the Brown list. This is the main list, and I am not
willing to admin problems created by an open gateway.
Secondly, due to the one-way posting, discussions on this list will
only see half the thread that is visible in the open newsgroup when
posts arrive to the news group but not to the list, leading to
scattered threads and eventually to a scattered list. This is bad,
since this is Conlang-L the one-and-only.
We've lived with this list all the time when news existed and
eventually declined in usage again. Honestly, I don't see any good
reason for installing a news gateway now.
**Henrik (List Admin)
Messages in this topic (13)
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2. Re: Implied verbs
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:40 pm (PDT)
Perhaps the first language was with only implied verbs. I studied
Chimpanzee language recently trying to analyse it as if their calls
were words in a verbal language. Probably they are just instinctive
calls and not true symbols, just like the non-verbal noises that we
sometimes make, only more evolved, along with a lot of visual signals
- after all, many of ours have been replaced by words. And it did
strike me how easy it was to find words expressing what the Chimps
tried to do with their calls. And further, among these words there
are no verbs. So maybe we can imagine that our own ancestors evolved
their language from a similar system of calls: interjections, nouns
and adjectives. With these they can make statements that we would
translate to: "There is danger!", "What is this?", "This is bad",
"This is good", "Don't do that!", "Mama come to me!" etc., but each
expressed with only one word, so literally: "Danger!", "What?",
"Bad!", "Good!", "No!", "Mama!" etc., with the verb implied.
Instead of uttering sentences the Chimps tend to repeat these simple
calls a lot of times, often with varying pitch. But they have more
complex calls as well, the food calls that are made up of
combinations of four different simple calls to signal the type of
food that has been found - perhaps a truly symbolic form of
communication. And the personal calls, a kind of joik or song to
identify the singer uniquely, consisting of two different simple
calls always in the same sequence, but with the pitch and pattern of
repetition varying.
I should like to work with this a little bit, try to imagine how
Chimpanzeese would develop if we gave them a few millennia, or how
the earliest stages of our languages could have developed...
LEF
Messages in this topic (9)
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3. Re: lykanthropos (was: Weekly Vocab #1.1.1 (repost #1))
Posted by: "Dirk Elzinga" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:56 pm (PDT)
On 9/21/06, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I know basically jack of Old English, but is it possible that 'werewolf'
> itself
> is originally a dvanda?
I'm not following this thread closely, but this question came up for
me as well. So I asked a colleague, who is an Old English expert, what
he thought. It was his opinion that it is in fact a dvandva compound.
Since he has published extensively on Old English compounding, I'm
inclined to take his word for it.
Dirk
Messages in this topic (51)
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4. Re: [Conlangs-Conf] 2nd LCC: reminder re location
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:33 pm (PDT)
Den 21. sep. 2006 kl. 20.24 skrev Sai Emrys:
>
> In terms of technical requirements:
> * conference space for at least 40 people for 2-2.5 days
> * mics, digital videocameras, one speaker, table, projector, etc
> * food
> * near an airport
> * near hotels
>
> The best location for everyone would be east coast US, but we
> certainly can consider others. I'm afraid the pond hop may reduce the
> number of attendees considerably, though.
Well, I wasn't thinking of staging one myself, but I sure would like
to attend one. Transatlantic flights will tend to reduce me, though.
Coming to think of it, I think we could fill all these requirements
in my local community. Except the nearby hotels. But many of the
local peasantry habitually keep lodgings for summer guests, so...
LEF
Messages in this topic (5)
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5. Re: "gender" systems = vowel harmony coalescing with stress changes?
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:51 pm (PDT)
On Sep 21, 2006, at 7:25 AM, Wesley Parish wrote:
> Hi. I just thought that is a reasonable explanation for "gender" in
> Indo-European languages. And probably in other "gendered" language
> families
> such as the Afro-Asiatic family.
>
> Are there any books, articles, etc, that ask this sort of question?
Perhaps you could explain your ideas about how they might be
related. I'm intrigued by the premise, but I can't seem to visualize
a connection.
Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. The biggest number you know in your conlang
Posted by: "Remi Villatel" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:07 pm (PDT)
bē ri blēsēr ?
kejiri saçrukuro rākuzē loilo, je sōle liuro tae'kja. jē rākuzē gār, be
jēezis tē'kja. dētu, kajā tēye çkikōjhte : be gāre grerē pelo çokta ta'kja.
sōje klidusē tsiju vire libo tiyō'dēta. yōjē çakej klidusē tsiju gār, be
za-jēezis jē'kja. kajā jipiki : be vire xotji-gēç tiyō'dēta ; tlaji ; ba
(10^10)^10. ri xogēç ske kibo, be vire fāj taja tiyō txelaobi. ratā
jipiki : rati saçrukuro gea, be vire klidusē pra teo tsiju ?
tul'xeje zatō'kja.
--------------
Hi list,
I was looking through my conlang files. I found a file I was absolutely sure
that I had lost or destroyed it. It was about the very large numbers. So I
retrieved the largest shaquean number. As far as I know, it's /xotji-gēç/
[Zo.tji:gEC], or in other words 12^(12^12). You write it as 1 followed by
over 9800 billions zeroes (in base 12). As far as you know, what is the
largest numbers in your conlang?
See you soon,
(Ouch! I blew up a few neurons to make this translation...) ;-)
--
==================
Remi Villatel
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
==================
Messages in this topic (7)
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6b. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:40 pm (PDT)
>In [email protected], Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>As far as you know, what is the largest numbers in your conlang?
In Senjecas the largest simple-word number is "ÿêslos," thousand.
There is the compound "ÿéslëÿêslos," million. I suppose one could
keep compounding ad infinitum,"ÿéslëÿéslëÿêslos," trillion, but that
becomes cumbersome very quickly!
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/senjecas
Messages in this topic (7)
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6c. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
Posted by: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:26 pm (PDT)
li [Remi Villatel] mi tulis la
> Subject: The biggest number you know in your conlang
> ...
> what is the
> largest numbers in your conlang?
Interesting subject. In Sasxsek there are only 12 basic numerals, but there is
also a suffix (-aus) which can combine to mean "power of 1000" so we have:
Basic numerals:
0 non (I'm thinking of changing this to "nul")
1 jen
2 duv
3 san
4 kuad
5 kiq /kiN/
6 ruk
7 sep
8 bat
9 nauf
10 ten
100 hek
Derivatives:
1'000 jenaus
1'000'000 duvaus
1'000'000'000 sanaus
10^300 hekaus
So theoretically there really isn't a limit however it could make for some
really long words.
But then there's ...
menaus men (PLURAL) + aus (1000^n) = zillion, "a big
number"
Or even ...
menisaus men + is (INTENSIFIER) + aus. = "a very big number"
------------------------------
dejnx nxtxr / Dana Nutter
LI SASXSEK LATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek
Messages in this topic (7)
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6d. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:59 pm (PDT)
Remi Villatel wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> I was looking through my conlang files. I found a file I was absolutely sure
> that I had lost or destroyed it. It was about the very large numbers. So I
> retrieved the largest shaquean number. As far as I know, it's /xotji-gēç/
> [Zo.tji:gEC], or in other words 12^(12^12). You write it as 1 followed by
> over 9800 billions zeroes (in base 12). As far as you know, what is the
> largest numbers in your conlang?
In Lindiga (http://www.io.com/~hmiller/lang/Lindiga/numbers.html):
99,999,999. The largest basic root word is rtlyrsi (10,000), and you can
have up to 9,999 of those. The numbers start getting really cumbersome,
though!
12,345,678 = rtlyrsi vrlengi kotti ai kie, sirli ai kiemiti, vrlengi
issi ai kienguorsi, pasi ai kiechaski (tenthousand hundred two and ten,
four and thirty, hundred six and fifty, eight and seventy).
Minza numbers are borrowed from Lindiga, adapted to Minza phonology and
spelling: šei, koči, miči, širi, ňuoži, iši, xaski, paži, yki, kie.
However, Minza also has duodecimal numbers borrowed from Tirelat, and
the largest of these is xamari (20,736). So using the duodecimal numbers
I could theoretically count up to 429,981,695. Minza additionally has
words borrowed from the SI prefixes, the highest of which is ġiota (from
yotta-), which represents 10^24.
Tirelat itself has words for numbers up to 12^52 (approx. 1.31 · 10^56).
The extra-high numbers are expressed by using the infix -za- in
combination with one of the basic number words:
xamaari = 20,736
xamaazari = 429,981,696
xamaazadłaari = 8,916,100,448,256 (dłaa = two)
xamaazakimri = 12^16 (kim = three)
and so on, up to xamaazakažri = 12^52 (kaž = twelve).
Messages in this topic (7)
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6e. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:00 pm (PDT)
Remi Villatel wrote:
> As far as you know, what is the
> largest numbers in your conlang?
>
Kash: the largest number in official use is cimaho [tSima'xo] 'quintillion,
10^18', borrowed < Gwr chih maq ho '1000 times-itself 6'(1). It would be
possible to create larger numbers on the same _cima+Gwr numeral_ pattern,
but it's considered impractical. Scientists etc. simply express such things
as powers of ten (using Kash words).
In popular use are cima-cima and praka-praka (based on the native term for
1000 million) which mean 'any inconceivably huge number, jillion,
gazillion'.
We don't yet have a term for "infinity", but I'm tending toward pinatrús <
pinal 'count; number' + lus 'last'; of course it's not really the "last"
number since pinatrus hap mesa 'infinity plus one' etc. is always possible.
-----------------
(1) chih was originally 1000 in base 8, but was adjusted up when the decimal
system was adopted.
Messages in this topic (7)
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6f. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:56 pm (PDT)
Quoting Remi Villatel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> As far as you know, what is the
> largest numbers in your conlang?
The largest single-word number I've got in Tairezazh is _gzhour_ 10^8. Using
this and smaller numerals you can express all numbers up to 10^16-1, which
would be
trafthel-trafksád-trafthel-traftsfail-trafthel-trafksád-trafthel-travgzhour-trafthel-trafksád-trafthel-traftsfail-trafthel-trafksád-trafthel-trav
Andreas
Messages in this topic (7)
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6g. Re: The biggest number you know in your conlang
Posted by: "Christopher Bates" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:42 am (PDT)
>> As far as you know, what is the
>> largest numbers in your conlang?
>>
Ngwaalq /N_wa:lq/ has a base 30 number system and a word /i:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/
for 30^4 = 810000. With this you can count high enough for a Bronze Age
culture, up to 30^8 - 1 = *656 099 999 999.
*
Messages in this topic (7)
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7. Progressive tense
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:54 pm (PDT)
I was browsing through Wikipedia & came upon the article "Venetian
Language." I discovered the language uses a different word than
Italian to form the progressive tenses.
Italian uses "stare," to stand, with the present participle. "Sto
parlando," I am speaking.
Venetian uses the adjective "drìo," busy, with the infinitive. "So
drìo parlar," I am speaking.
I like the concept so I'm using it for the progressive tenses in
Senjecas, instead of "êsa," to be, with the present participle.
However, instead of using the adjective "busy" with "êsa," I am
going to use the verb form as an auxiliary with the supine.
m-us êêg-u pûd-a.
I-NOM.sg speak-SUPINE be.busy-IND
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/senjecas
Messages in this topic (1)
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8. Weekly Vocab #1.1.4 (repost #1)
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:12 pm (PDT)
Last posted: April 19th, 2002
> From: Aidan Grey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Brought to you by S (for Sluggy) and F (for Freelance) and excalamations.
>
> ( see http://www.sluggyfreelance.com it's a very great web-comic, and
> even has special gold foil episodes! I recommend it to all the twisted out
> there - this weeks vocab and context sentences will make a lot of sense
> after reading some of it...)
>
> Vocab:
>
> 1. bunny / rabbit
> 2. ferret
> 3. knife
> 4. alien / foreigner
> 5. ouch! / ow!
> 6. help!
> 7. aaaa! (a scream of terror)
> 8. aaaargh! (a scream of pain / failure / death)
> 9. grrrr! (an intimidating growl)
> 10. blood
>
> Context:
>
> 1. That bunny has a knife!
> 2. This is my ferret. She likes to dance!
> 3. The bunny with the knife is coming for me!
> 4. Does that alien eat people or not?
> 5. Ouch! The rabbit with the knife cut off my arm!
> 6. Help! I'm bleeding to death!
> 7. Aaaaa! The rabbit is coming back!
> 8. Aaaargh! It cut off my other arm!
> 9. Grrrr! I will step on (crush / squish by foot) that rabbit!
> 10. The rabbit cut off my legs. Look at the pretty pools of blood.
>
> Aidan
Bonus Vocab from WordNet:
This is randomly selected automatically, so in case it offends you
or you disagree, please either ignore or be inspired to make up
different words and/or phrases:
- jinrikisha, n.
a small two-wheeled cart for one passenger; pulled by one person
- get, v.
reach with a blow or hit in a particular spot; "the rock caught her in the
back of the head"; "The blow got him in the back"; "The punch caught him
in the stomach"
Fiant verba!
----
If you want to post your own weekly vocab, please do not send it to
the list directly. To prevent unbalanced amounts of new vocab, send
it to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> in order to enqueue it in the
regular weekly posting process. Just write a mail as if addressing
the list directly -- it will be forwarded as is.
Messages in this topic (1)
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9. Re: Stress placement systems
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:24 pm (PDT)
Dirk Elzinga wrote:
> On 9/20/06, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip
>> Thanks - it doesn't change my opinion :)
>
> I didn't think it would. But it does show that the database
> maintainers probably paid undue attention to Hayes (1995) and didn't
> do any checking of their own.
The maintainer is Dr Todd M. Bailey, a lecturer in the School of
Psychology at Cardiff University.
[snip]
>> My own feeling is that using a SPC to describe every language with word
>> stress is not going to work.
>
> I agree. I would actually want to *exclude* all systems that are
> lexical and/or morphological.
That's up to Todd Bailey - my impression is that he considered all
languages have word stress & that his notational system would suffice
for them all. His database was, he tells me, compiled as a side-effect
of his dissertation research, which he decided post_hoc might be useful
enough to make available to others on the Internet.
> It is perhaps significant that the database
>
>> does not include modern Greek.
>
> But Russian is *included*, and it is presumably a stress system which
> is lexically and morphologically determined, just as you claim for
> modern Greek.
That is certainly how I understand Russian.
> Clearly more homework needs to be done on the part of the database
> maintainers.
I agree. I think he must either make it clear that it is a side product
of research done some time back which he thinks might be of some use,
but that it may contain errors, or else properly overhaul the thing &
maintain as error free as possible.
[snip]
> As I said above, I would want to exclude all non-phonological stress
> systems. The remaining database, limited as it is, would still be a
> useful resource, if sufficient attention were paid to accuracy and
> fact-checking.
Quite so.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}
Messages in this topic (14)
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