There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Difficult language ideas
From: Christopher Bates
1b. Re: Difficult language ideas
From: Lars Finsen
2. Re: Athena(i) Re: Transcription exercise
From: R A Brown
3a. Re: Accusative or not accusative; that is the question
From: Santiago Matías Feldman
3b. Re: Accusative or not accusative; that is the question
From: Santiago Matías Feldman
3c. Re: Accusative or not accusative; that is the question
From: Lars Finsen
4a. Re: Translation challenge
From: Lars Finsen
4b. Re: Translation challenge
From: Lars Finsen
Messages
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1a. Re: Difficult language ideas
Posted by: "Christopher Bates" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:06 am (PDT)
> I like that. Reminds me that I need to construct a lot of metaphors
> for my conlangs. They are very barren the way I have them now. I have
> written a lot of poetry without using a single metaphor. Urianian and
> Gaajan poets would probably sneer at me. Got to re-work them a bit.
> But non-metaphoric language sure helps legibility...
I don't believe that a language without Metaphor is even possible. The
very basis of language is metaphor, because the world is (from our point
of view, at least, even if not in absolute terms) infinite in the number
of objects that exist and the number of possible kinds of actions that
can take place. All languages have metaphorical extentions of terms and
constructions from their core meaning on the basis of percieved
similarity, otherwise they could not function.
If you've written a lot in your conlang, I'd suggest that it's not the
fact that metaphors are not present, but rather that you've been using
your default metaphors from your own culture and language and not noticed.
Messages in this topic (32)
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1b. Re: Difficult language ideas
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:36 am (PDT)
Den 27. sep. 2006 kl. 11.49 skrev Christopher Bates:
> I don't believe that a language without Metaphor is even possible.
> The very basis of language is metaphor, because the world is (from
> our point of view, at least, even if not in absolute terms)
> infinite in the number of objects that exist and the number of
> possible kinds of actions that can take place. All languages have
> metaphorical extentions of terms and constructions from their core
> meaning on the basis of percieved similarity, otherwise they could
> not function.
>
> If you've written a lot in your conlang, I'd suggest that it's not
> the fact that metaphors are not present, but rather that you've
> been using your default metaphors from your own culture and
> language and not noticed.
I guess you would. But I was not thinking of metaphor in the sense
used in modern linguistic theory, rather in the sense used in common
speech - words or phrases distinctly separated from their dictionary
senses. I do have quite a few words with a wider or narrower sense
than the corresponding words in Norwegian or English, for example.
But I don't think this is enough in itself. Metaphoric usage is to
lift a word or phrase out of its usual perceived meaning or combine a
new phrase and give it a meaning that isn't immediately perceived
from its constituents. A very popular practice among poets from the
earliest times as it appears. So I do need to give it some thought.
Very best greetings,
LEF
Messages in this topic (32)
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2. Re: Athena(i) Re: Transcription exercise
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:25 am (PDT)
Philip Newton wrote:
> On 9/26/06, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> It would seem that in modern Greek there is a feminine noun
>> Ï
ÏογεγÏαμμÎνη meaning "iota hypogegrammenon/subscript"; and
>> Googling on
>> Ï
ÏογεγÏαμμÎνη clearly confirms this.
>
>
> It looks like a participle to me, adjectival in form; I wonder what
> the understood noun is that it's intended
That's all correct. Yes, it is the feminine of a participle with some
noun understood
> to modify, since in modern Greek, letter names are neuter as well.
Yes, the names have always been neuter.
> Or if it's not an adjective
> with understood noun, why modern Greek use the feminine form.
>
> Maybe by analogy with "psili" and "varia"? Not sure what feminine noun
> those adjectives modify, either.
No, not analogy - all these feminine forms - now used substantively -
have the same feminine noun 'understood', namely ÏÏοÏÏδία (or
ÏÏοÏῳδία
in Byzantine spelling) which, inter_alia, means "diacritic" (a meaning
found as early as the 4th cent CE)
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}
Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. Re: Accusative or not accusative; that is the question
Posted by: "Santiago Matías Feldman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:16 am (PDT)
--- Kalle Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:
> --- Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev:
> > BTW, "from..." would be ablative, I think;
> > "without..." IIRC is called
> > _privative_.
>
> I've always called it "abessive", but perhaps
> they're
> synonyms.
>
> ...and a quick lookup in wikipedia confirms this.
>
> /Kalle B
Thank you both, Kalle and Roger, for the data.
I still don't know some names for the cases, but I'll
get used to them in due time.
Santiago
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Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: Accusative or not accusative; that is the question
Posted by: "Santiago Matías Feldman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:20 am (PDT)
--- Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:
> Den 25. sep. 2006 kl. 05.19 skrev Santiago Matías
> Feldman:
> >
> > The question is, I was thinking that the
> accusative
> > needed to be marked too, as any other case, (...)
(Lars):
> What options for marking it have you been thinking
> of?
(Santiago):
Apart from the "suffixed-article" and "preposed
article" options that I had mentioned, first I had
thought of suffixing a particle which is different
from the article, that is, one that's only used for
marking the accusative; but then I felt that there was
no plausible explanation of the origin of that feature
out of Latin.
Another option was preposing a particle, which is only
used for marking the accusative case, but I didn't
like it.
> (Santiago):
> > Summing up, the two options are these:
> >
> > 1st:
> >
> > NOM la om
> > ACC omul
> > GEN la omus
> > DAT la om-???
> > ADL? la omat (to the man)
> > LOC la oman
> > ??? la oma (from the man)
> > ??? la omsun (without the man)
(Lars):
> Perhaps you need two different cases for those two
> latter senses, but
> I'd like to mention that you could combine them into
> one without
> risking much ambiguity, letting the context decide
> the meaning. For
> example with ablative as the choice, you can express
> 'I went without
> the man' as "went-I the man-abl" and 'I went from
> the man' as "went-I
> the man-gen house(or wherever he's at)-abl." This is
> done in some
> natlangs. Statements such as 'I got it from the man'
> also would be
> unambiguous because few context would make any sense
> of 'I got it
> without the man'. I have experimented a bit with
> this in my Urianian,
> an IE language with a postpositional trend due to
> substrate
> influence. Just thought I'd like to mention it.
(Santiago):
That could be implemented, but I'd like my Romlang to
be quite unambiguous. I'd separate those two meanings
even though there wouldn't be much ambiguity if I
didn't.
As regards Urianian, that's interesting. The
description you're giving fits very well with my
Romlang Laturslav. It's IE with Turkic substrate
influence.
And is it Urianian agglutinative too? Is it supposed
to be related to the Indo-Altaic family in some way?
The name reminds me of the Urals, but perhaps it
doesn't have anything to do with them?
(Santiago):
> > etc (under construction!) etc
> >
> > 2nd:
> >
> > NOM omul
> > ACC la om
> > GEN la omus
> > DAT la om-???
> > ADL? la omat
> > LOC la oman
> > ??? la oma
> > ??? la omsïn
> > etc
> >
> > Which one would you choose?
(Lars):
> Yes, like others I think the latter looks best.
> Natlangs often go for
> neatness if they are given a clear choice, because
> it works best for
> the memory. Still there are many cases where they
> take the odd way
> out as well. So it's not necessary the option that
> looks best which
> would be the choice of your Laturslavs. Perhaps you
> should ask them?
(Santiago):
Well, the interesting thing is that my native tongue,
Spanish, has this paradigm for third person pronouns:
NOM él (he)
ACC lo
DAT le
OBL él
So, whenever él is preceded by a preposition, you have
the NOM-like form: él.
'con él', 'de él' 'por él' 'sin él', etc.
That's where I took the idea from.
This looks more like the first option for Laturslav,
the one in which the nominative and has the preposed
article, the same as all the other cases, except the
accustative.
However, I think I'll go for the second, as you are
suggesting. It seems more logical, yes.
Santiago
__________________________________________________
Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí.
Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas,
está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta).
¡Probalo ya!
http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas
Messages in this topic (7)
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3c. Re: Accusative or not accusative; that is the question
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:43 pm (PDT)
Den 27. sep. 2006 kl. 19.52 skrev Santiago Matías Feldman:
> As regards Urianian, that's interesting. The
> description you're giving fits very well with my
> Romlang Laturslav. It's IE with Turkic substrate
> influence.
>
> And is it Urianian agglutinative too?
No - the substrate language, which happens to be identical to my
other conlang Gaajan, is (kind of) agglutinative, but its influence
hasn't gone that far on Urianian. In fact, Gaajan was in the process
of relaxing its agglutinativity when the Urianians came. To repair
it's loss of prepositions, Urianian uses participles and
prepositional phrases. The latter I'm not quite sure how to handle
yet. But I have an example or two in the recently posted poem
translation.
> Is it supposed
> to be related to the Indo-Altaic family in some way?
No, more closely to Germanic-Baltic-Slavic. For Gaajan I am trying to
make a blend of Basque and some Caucasian languages that seem to be
its closest relatives. But I have taken a few hints from some other
pre-IE European languages too, trying to make something coherent out
of it.
Actually I have been wondering if Urianian may be construed as
identical to Pictish, because some Pictish king names can be analysed
as Urianian. I know Picts spoke a language related to Brittonic in
the latter part of their history, but there may be a pre-Celtic
stratum too. (Which I feel tempted to annex.)
> The name reminds me of the Urals, but perhaps it
> doesn't have anything to do with them?
I don't think so, but that question actually has been in very hot
debate among Urianian linguists the last couple of hundred years, as
you can imagine. It may be related to 'ur' - water, Old Urianian
u:ris (n) 'water', u:ra: (f) 'river'. The rain goddess is called Uri,
and the people came across the water from the east to settle in the
country. But then there is also a town, Uria, which today is the
chief administrative centre of the Urianian population and the seat
of their first academy, founded in 1833 (thus the written language is
based on the Uria dialect), but it has only had this position for the
last 2-300 years or so. Another alternative which has been debated is
the 'ur' word meaning 'man, human' in the Uria dialect. But this is
'vir' elsewhere in the high country and 'fir' or 'fyr' in the
lowlands, going back to OU wi:ros, so this alternative today is
largely dismissed.
(I can go on endlessly like this, if you don't stop me.)
:-) LEF
Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: Translation challenge
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:01 pm (PDT)
Den 25. sep. 2006 kl. 22.25 skrev taliesin the storyteller:
> In memory of John M. Ford, who wrote (among other things) a most
> excellent book about Klingons before this world had discovered
> tlhIngan
> Hol and ST:TNG.
Very hard translation. Especially to a bronze-age language like
Gaajan. But I'll make a try in Urianian. This is not going to be
elegant I'm afraid, because I'm not going to take much poetic
license. Rather it will be more of a literal translation, just for
the exercise.
> Against Entropy
Dirditi entropet (lit. resistance-inst entropy-abl, that is: in
resistance against entropy)
> The worm drives helically through the wood
Mas rif kirtuni dravat tara (worm drives screw-like-inst penetrating
wood-acc)
> And does not know the dust left in the bore
je ni kin bilet litni istu (and not knows meal-acc.pl left-pl hole-
loc - dust is not collective in Urianian)
> Once made the table integral and good;
Hm, I don't get this sense quite, but here goes:
ini urken pilda fend je fet; (once made-3pï¼»that is: referring to the
dustï¼½table-acc whole and good)
> And suddenly the crystal hits the floor.
je anti krystal drak tumbida. (and sudden-inst crystal hits floor-acc)
> Electrons find their paths in subtle ways,
Elektrone sinet esan ajan, vinvitit juli, (electrons road-acc.pl
their find-3p approach-inst.pl cunning-pl)
> A massless eddy in a trail of smoke;
tern tumam lisu rakit; (eddy mass-less trail-loc smoke-abl)
> The names of lovers, light of other days-
nammi kasinan, lag tunan elli- (names lover-gen.pl light day-gen.pl
other-pl)
> Perhaps you will not miss them. That's the joke.
fu it ni mingavit. (maybeï¼»be-3s-subjï¼½them not miss-subj-2s) Dat e
lamas. (that is joke-dem.nom.s)
> The universe winds down. That´s how it's made.
Univers visur nya. (universe wind-refl-3s down-acc) Dat e vittas josi
urkin. (that is way-dem.nom.s which-inst make-pass.3s)
> But memory is everything to lose;
Word-order a little confusing here, but I think it is:
nu kenz e lirkid elziset; (but memory is lose-inf everything-acc.pl)
> Although some of the colors have to fade,
dende eng e palnid igai bragvan, (though necessary is fade-inf some-
dat colour-gen.pl)
> Do not believe you'll get the chance to choose.
ni virki fekvit mita kastendi. (not believe-imp.2s get-subj.2s chance-
acc choosing-dat)
> Regret, by definition, comes too late;
Glerd, sa zuzi, jum teri nikta; (regret, its nature-inst, comes slow/
late-inst enough-acc)
> Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate.
si saji jos mijit. (it-acc say-imp.2s which mean-2s) Nimi tiket.
(give-out-imp.2s proof-acc.pl) Zipi. (repeat-imp.2s)
And all together again:
Dirditi entropet
Mas rif kirtuni dravat tara
je ni kin bilet litni istu
ini urken pilda fend je fet;
je anti krystal drak tumbida.
Elektrone sinet esan ajan, vinvitit juli,
tern tumam lisu rakit;
nammi kasinan, lag tunan elli-
fu it ni mingavit. Dat e lamas.
Univers visur nya. Dat e vittas josi urkin.
nu kenz e lirkid elziset;
dende eng e palnid igai bragvan,
ni virki fekvit mita kastendi.
Glerd, sa zuzi, jum teri nikta;
si saji jos mijit. Nimi tiket. Zipi.
My goodness, can't believe I spent all evening with this. But I sent
away some work yesterday and hopefully have a few days off now, so
can afford it. And I did get a few new words, thanks for the exercise.
Greetings,
LEF
Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Translation challenge
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:44 pm (PDT)
Den 28. sep. 2006 kl. 00.43 skrev Lars Finsen:
>> Although some of the colors have to fade,
>
> dende eng e palnid igai bragvan, (though necessary is fade-inf some-
> dat colour-gen.pl)
Oops, small mistake here. That should be bilnid, not palnid for 'to
fade'. Thus:
dende eng e bilnid igai bragvan,
LEF
Messages in this topic (2)
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