There are 17 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.4 (repost #1)
From: Henrik Theiling
2. English is..., by Mike Ford
From: Mark J. Reed
3. Language and conlang links page
From: Kate
4a. How to kick the infinitive habit
From: Gary Shannon
4b. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: Andreas Johansson
4c. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: Gary Shannon
4d. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: Andreas Johansson
4e. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: R A Brown
4f. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: Philip Newton
4g. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: Philip Newton
4h. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: Philip Newton
4i. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: Roger Mills
4j. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: Andreas Johansson
4k. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: taliesin the storyteller
4l. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: H. S. Teoh
4m. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
From: R A Brown
5. Reminder: Next Bay Area Conlang meetup: Oct 14th
From: Sai Emrys
Messages
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1. Re: Weekly Vocab #1.1.4 (repost #1)
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 5:47 am (PDT)
Late, late, I know. And only a few words:
bunny, rabbit kykkull < cuniculus
ferret þyrtur < furettus
knife kyltill < cultillus
foreign strænir < extraneus
help! eit! < *aiutare
blood! söngur < sanguis
to danse ballir < ballare
to like to X.inf amir X.ger.acc (also: amir X.inf)
That bunny has a knife! Is kykkull tett kyltil!
This is my ferret. Híg er þyrtur myr.
She likes to dance. Þiss ömunn böllunn.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (7)
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2. English is..., by Mike Ford
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 7:59 am (PDT)
Found in a collection of posts by the late John M. "Mike" Ford:
English is the noise made by people who don't believe you can use
language but want your stuff handed over politely.
English is what happens when you can't decide whether the Greeks or
the Romans had the better civilization, so you ask everybody they ever
beat up on to sort it out.
English is a language in which up has forty-seven dictionary
definitions but antidisestablishmentarianism is considered a "hard
word."
English is a text parser's way of getting faster processors built.
English is the inevitable result of repressing the gender of nouns.
English is ideographic, but it's sneaky about it.
English was created to be the language of international air traffic
control, but it got bored waiting.
English is the "universal Martian" used for interplanetary ditching
instructions.
English is a tale told by an extremely clever and inventive idiot.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (1)
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3. Language and conlang links page
Posted by: "Kate" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 8:46 am (PDT)
Some of you might be interested in this:
http://del.icio.us/kutsuwamushi
I thought it would be nice to publish the helpful (to me) links that I
find while searching the web for inspiration/information for my
conlangs. Most of the links will be about natural languages, because
naturalistic conlangs are what I'm interested in.
There are about forty links up already. And of course there's an RSS
feed because it's del.icio.us:
http://del.icio.us/rss/kutsuwamushi
--
Katya
Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 11:06 am (PDT)
Does a conlang need the infinitive? I don't think so. In English, sentences can
be analyzed in a way that does not even admit the existence of the infinitive.
Take the sentence:
I want to go home.
Conventional wisdom tells us that "to go" is the infinitive, but is it?
Consider the colloquial equivalent:
I wanna go home.
The existence of the word "wanna" suggests that the natural analysis is
grouping "to" with "want" in order to create the modifier "wanna", often
spelled "want to".
There are other equivalent pairs of modifiers that are functionally identical
such as "must" and "have to" as in "I must go home." and "I have to go home.".
Neither "must" not "have to" takes the infinitive because in this
interpretation the infinitive does not exist.
Nor can the infinitive be split if it does not exist: "I want to finally go
home." or the equivalent "I wanna finally go home." would be considered
correct. To put the adverb "finally" in the middle of a compound word like
"want to" sounds unnatural: "I want finally to go home." That doesn't work
because the equivalent using "wanna", "I wan-finally-na go home.", requires the
adverb be placed right in the middle of the single word "wanna" which is not
permitted. Likewise "I must finally go home" is obviously correct and replacing
"must" with its exact equivalent "have to" gives "I have to finally go home."
and not the unnatural "I have finally to go home." since that would require the
equivalent "I mu-finally-st go home." which is not permitted.
Another example of natural analysis is the colloquial phrase "how to". The
bookstore has a "how to" section, not a "how" section, clearly implying that in
"How to swim", "to" belongs with "how" and not with "swim".
Where "to" in the so-called infinitive cannot be analyzed as part of the
preceding modifier I suggest that it is not really an infinitive at all, but an
alternate spelling of the gerund. "To sing makes me happy." "Singing makes me
happy." In this case "To sing" and "Singing" have the equivalent noun-like
function in the sentences. "Being or not being. That is the question." Clearly
a gerund and not an infinitive, since the infinitive does not need to exist.
So a conlang could easily do away with the infinitive and make the syntax more
regular in the process. Single words for modifiers like "want to", "will",
"have to", "must", "am going to", "should", "can not", means that only one rule
needs to exist concerning the placement of modifiers and the form of the
associated verb. They are all interchangable in every instance: "I (want to) go
home.", "I (am going to) go home.", "I (must) go home.", "I (can not) go home."
--gary
Messages in this topic (13)
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4b. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 11:20 am (PDT)
Quoting Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Does a conlang need the infinitive?
No, a conlang doesn't necessarily have an infinitive.
[snip really strange stuff about English grammar]
May I ask why you spend so much time on non-standard analyzes of English,
instead of, for instance, trying and coming up with an infinitiveless conlang,
or just look at an infinitiveless natlang (which English, your efforts
nonwithstanding, isn't)?
Andreas
Messages in this topic (13)
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4c. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 11:43 am (PDT)
--- Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Quoting Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Does a conlang need the infinitive?
>
> No, a conlang doesn't necessarily have an infinitive.
>
> [snip really strange stuff about English grammar]
>
> May I ask why you spend so much time on non-standard analyzes of English,
> instead of, for instance, trying and coming up with an infinitiveless
> conlang,
> or just look at an infinitiveless natlang (which English, your efforts
> nonwithstanding, isn't)?
>
> Andreas
I simply use English for illustrative purposes. It's much quicker to explore
the possibilities of an idea that way than to have to build a whole conlang
before discovering that it doesn't work at all. Once I've explored it in
English paraphrase and found that it works, then I can use what I've learned
to start building a real conlang.
My preliminary exploration of this idea using English lexicon took me a grand
total of 15 minutes. It would take me many times longer than that to even find
an infinitive free natlang, if a such a thing even exists, and I could have
spent days or weeks getting to the point where I understood it well enough to
accomplish what I accomplished in 15 minutes in English.
Almost all of my conlangs started out with English lexicon and some new
grammar. For example my conlangs: http://www.fiziwig.com/soaloa/twostep.txt and
http://www.fiziwig.com/soaloa/mut01.html and
http://www.fiziwig.com/soaloa/mutlak.html and
http://www.fiziwig.com/soaloa/boring.txt and
http://www.fiziwig.com/soaloa/grammar1.html which all began with English
lexicon and non-English grammar.
--gary
Messages in this topic (13)
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4d. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 12:01 pm (PDT)
Quoting Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> --- Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Quoting Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > > Does a conlang need the infinitive?
> >
> > No, a conlang doesn't necessarily have an infinitive.
> >
> > [snip really strange stuff about English grammar]
> >
> > May I ask why you spend so much time on non-standard analyzes of English,
> > instead of, for instance, trying and coming up with an infinitiveless
> > conlang,
> > or just look at an infinitiveless natlang (which English, your efforts
> > nonwithstanding, isn't)?
> >
> > Andreas
>
> I simply use English for illustrative purposes. It's much quicker to explore
> the possibilities of an idea that way than to have to build a whole conlang
> before discovering that it doesn't work at all. Once I've explored it in
> English paraphrase and found that it works, then I can use what I've learned
> to start building a real conlang.
>
> My preliminary exploration of this idea using English lexicon took me a grand
> total of 15 minutes. It would take me many times longer than that to even
> find
> an infinitive free natlang, if a such a thing even exists, and I could have
> spent days or weeks getting to the point where I understood it well enough to
> accomplish what I accomplished in 15 minutes in English.
It'd taken you less than a minute to ask if there are any infinitiveless
natlangs ...
(I'd, of course, be inclined to dispute that you "accomplished" anything with
your reanalysis of English, but let's not go there.)
Andreas
Messages in this topic (13)
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4e. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 12:32 pm (PDT)
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>--- Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>Quoting Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>>
>>>>Does a conlang need the infinitive?
>>>
>>>No, a conlang doesn't necessarily have an infinitive.
Of course it doesn't - as there are natlangs that do not have
infinitives, clearly conlangs can do without them.
>>>[snip really strange stuff about English grammar]
Well, I'll just quote one sentence from the original:
"Where "to" in the so-called infinitive cannot be analyzed as part of
the preceding modifier I suggest that it is not really an infinitive at
all, but an alternate spelling of the gerund."
..which, with respect, does not help. The original use of the term
'gerund' referred to the verbal noun of Latin which did duty for the
oblique cases of the infinitive! That is, the Latin infinitive (i.e.
verbal noun) could stand as subject (nom.) or direct object (acc.) of a
verb, but if another case was required or we wanted to have a
preposition govern the verbal noun, the gerund was used instead.
Since then, the term 'gerund' has normally been used to denote another
verbal noun other than the infinitive, if a language has more than one
verbal noun form. Thus, having a gerund usually implies having an
infinitive also.
But, of course, you may just have one set of verbal nouns in your
conlang, but decide to call them gerunds. That does not, however, mean
that your conlang has no infinitive - merely that you're calling the
infinitive by another name :)
[snip]
> It'd taken you less than a minute to ask if there are any infinitiveless
> natlangs ...
Indeed there are - modern Greek is an example that comes to mind
immediately. Where other languages may use an infinitive or gerund,
modern Greek use a clause: na + subjunctive.
Thus, e.g. I want go/ I wanna go ---> I want that I (should) go
Smoking is forbidden/ It is forbidden to smoke ---> That you (should)
smoke is forbidden.
etc.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}
Messages in this topic (13)
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4f. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 12:49 pm (PDT)
On 10/1/06, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does a conlang need the infinitive? I don't think so. In English, sentences
> can
> be analyzed in a way that does not even admit the existence of the infinitive.
> Take the sentence:
>
> I want to go home.
>
> Conventional wisdom tells us that "to go" is the infinitive, but is it?
> Consider the colloquial equivalent:
>
> I wanna go home.
>
> The existence of the word "wanna" suggests that the natural analysis is
> grouping "to" with "want" in order to create the modifier "wanna", often
> spelled "want to".
So? That just means that "go" is the infinitive.
It's certainly not a form that inflects for person, number, or tense:
He hasta go home.
*He hasta goes home.
We hadta go home.
*We hadta went home.
So since it's not finite, it smells awfully like an infinitive to me.
> Nor can the infinitive be split if it does not exist
Red herring, if the infinitive is merely "go".
> So a conlang could easily do away with the infinitive and make the syntax more
> regular in the process. Single words for modifiers like "want to", "will",
> "have to", "must", "am going to", "should", "can not", means that only one
> rule
> needs to exist concerning the placement of modifiers and the form of the
> associated verb.
What form should the associated verb take?
> They are all interchangable in every instance: "I (want to) go
> home.", "I (am going to) go home.", "I (must) go home.", "I (can not) go
> home."
Please reformulate those sentences with "He" as the subject, and again
in the past tense.
It just looks simple because English doesn't have much in the way of
inflections, so you're confusing the finite form "(I) go" with the
infinitive "go".
If you have a bit more inflections, I'm not sure what form you would
want to put after your modifiers. Or did you want something like "He
(is going to) goes home"?
P.S. If you want infinitive-less natlangs, consider Bulgarian and Modern Greek.
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (13)
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4g. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 12:57 pm (PDT)
On 10/1/06, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> P.S. If you want infinitive-less natlangs, consider Bulgarian and Modern
> Greek.
And I don't know much about Bulgarian, but here's a bit of info on Modern Greek.
Modern Greek has a form called the "infinitive" (aparemphato), but it
serves a different function that's rather unlike the
English/German/Romance/etc. infinitive, so let's ignore that for now.
(Essentially, it's used to create perfective sentences of the kind "I
have Xed/I had Xed/I will have Xed", where the "Xed" part uses this
"infinitive". Though the English form "Xed", which might be called the
(passive) past participle, is also invariable for person, number, and
tense, so it's perhaps also a kind of infinitive....)
Where your SAElang would use an infinitive, Greek typically uses "na"
+ a form that's traditionally called "subjunctive". At any rate, it's
inflected for person, number, and aspect (though not tense). "Na" can,
perhaps, best be glossed as "that".
So you'd have (with no guarantee as to correctness in all cases, but
it should give you an idea):
Thelo na fao kati.
I-want that I-eat.PERF something
I want to eat something.
Prepei na yirisoume tora.
It-is-necessary that we-return.PERF now
We have to go back now.
Dhe boresa na katalavo afto to vivlio.
Not I-could that I-understand.PERF this the book
I wasn't able to read this book.
(Note that "understand" is not in the past tense; it's inflected
only for aspect, not tense.)
Mou aresei to na tragoudhao.
Me it-pleases the that I-sing.IMPERF
I like singing.
To na mathei kaneis mia xeni glossa einai dhiskolo.
The that he-learns.PERF someone a foreign language is difficult
It's difficult to learn a foreign language.
Dhen xereis pos na anoixeis tin porta?
Not you-know how that you-open.PERF the door
Don't you know how to open the door?
Tha ithela na sou po oti ...
FUT I-wanted.IMPERF that to-you I-say.PERF that ...
I'd like to tell you that ...
(The future particle "tha" plus the imperfective past form
together form something like the English "would")
So in cases where English would use an infinitive, Greek uses a finite
form. (This also lets it use impersonal constructions such as prepei
"it is necessary" as a modal "must/have to", since the main verb
contains the person and number information.)
The dictionary form of a verb, FWIW, is the first person singular,
present indicative, e.g. kano "I do".
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (13)
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4h. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 12:59 pm (PDT)
On 10/1/06, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Where other languages may use an infinitive or gerund,
> modern Greek use a clause: na + subjunctive.
>
> Thus, e.g. I want go/ I wanna go ---> I want that I (should) go
> Smoking is forbidden/ It is forbidden to smoke ---> That you (should)
> smoke is forbidden.
Though since the second construction is sometimes clunky, they
sometimes reach for a "proper" noun instead -- I'd translate "Smoking
is forbidden" as "Apagorevetai to kapnisma", perhaps something like
"The-act-of-smoking is forbidden". But yes, something along the lines
of "The that-you-(should)-smoke is forbidden" is possible, too
(Apagorevetai to na kapnizete, or something along those lines).
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (13)
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4i. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 2:00 pm (PDT)
Philip Newton wrote:
> On 10/1/06, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Where other languages may use an infinitive or gerund,
> > modern Greek use a clause: na + subjunctive.
> >
> > Thus, e.g. I want go/ I wanna go ---> I want that I (should) go
> > Smoking is forbidden/ It is forbidden to smoke ---> That you (should)
> > smoke is forbidden.
>
> Though since the second construction is sometimes clunky, they
> sometimes reach for a "proper" noun instead -- I'd translate "Smoking
> is forbidden" as "Apagorevetai to kapnisma", perhaps something like
> "The-act-of-smoking is forbidden". But yes, something along the lines
> of "The that-you-(should)-smoke is forbidden" is possible, too
> (Apagorevetai to na kapnizete, or something along those lines).
>
Kash does something like that, also with nods to both Spanish and
Indonesian:
Indo.: saya mau pulang (I want go-home) 'I want to go home'
saya mau ia pulang (I want he go-home) 'I want him to go home'
(For mau you can substitute harus 'have to', mesti 'must', bisa 'can' et
al.)
Span. quiero comerlo 'I want to eat it'
quiero que (él) lo coma 'I want him to eat it'
Kash: (grammar book correct) mamelo macosa (I-want I-go) 'I want to go'
(everyday usage) mamelo cosa
mamelo re yacosa (I-want THAT he-go) I want him to go
Messages in this topic (13)
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4j. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 2:16 pm (PDT)
Quoting Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 10/1/06, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > P.S. If you want infinitive-less natlangs, consider Bulgarian and Modern
> Greek.
>
> And I don't know much about Bulgarian, but here's a bit of info on Modern
> Greek.
>
> Modern Greek has a form called the "infinitive" (aparemphato), but it
> serves a different function that's rather unlike the
> English/German/Romance/etc. infinitive, so let's ignore that for now.
> (Essentially, it's used to create perfective sentences of the kind "I
> have Xed/I had Xed/I will have Xed", where the "Xed" part uses this
> "infinitive". Though the English form "Xed", which might be called the
> (passive) past participle, is also invariable for person, number, and
> tense, so it's perhaps also a kind of infinitive....)
The word for an non-finite verb-form is "infinite". The label "infinitive" is
usually restricted to nounish infinite verb-forms.
>From your description, the "aparemphato" reminds me of the Swedish form called
"supine"*, which is only used to form compound tenses.
* Despite the name, it has no relation or apparent similarity to the Latin
verb-form of the same name.
Andreas
Messages in this topic (13)
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4k. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 3:20 pm (PDT)
* Roger Mills said on 2006-10-01 22:56:35 +0200
> Philip Newton wrote:
> > Though since the second construction is sometimes clunky, they
> > sometimes reach for a "proper" noun instead -- I'd translate
> > "Smoking is forbidden" as "Apagorevetai to kapnisma", perhaps
> > something like "The-act-of-smoking is forbidden". But yes, something
> > along the lines of "The that-you-(should)-smoke is forbidden" is
> > possible, too (Apagorevetai to na kapnizete, or something along
> > those lines).
> >
> Kash does something like that, also with nods to both Spanish and
> Indonesian:
>
> Indo.: saya mau pulang (I want go-home) 'I want to go home'
> saya mau ia pulang (I want he go-home) 'I want him to go home'
> (For mau you can substitute harus 'have to', mesti 'must', bisa 'can'
> et al.)
Taruven does without infinitives by changing the other verb in the
sentence:
I want-COMPL I.go home
where 'I.go home' is a regular sentence. Though for that particular
example it's actually
ševašeŋŋ yérases
ševa -šeŋŋ yéras -es
I.go -want home -LOC
since Taruven uses mood-markers and have no modal verbs.
Furthermore, each verb has an implicit unmarked noun-meaning depending
on its type:
to build -> a building (the process of building, not the result)
As for "smoking is forbidden/to smoke is forbidden". it would be
rendered something like
not-smoke-may here "One/I may not smoke here"
I don't have a word usable for smoking yet so by substituting eat:
ëfirinnim res
ë- firi -nnim res
not I.eat may here
no eating may here
t.
Messages in this topic (13)
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4l. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 5:00 pm (PDT)
On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 10:51:42AM -0700, Gary Shannon wrote:
> Does a conlang need the infinitive? I don't think so. In English,
> sentences can be analyzed in a way that does not even admit the
> existence of the infinitive.
[...]
I don't know about English, but certainly Tatari Faran has constructions
that are markedly different from the verb + infinitive construct.
For example, while languages like English use verbs for "try", "start",
"stop", etc., Tatari Faran has no equivalent verb for these concepts,
but instead *adverbs*.
For example, the sentence "she tries to pick up the rock" is translated
not by a verb "to try" plus an infinitive "to pick up", but by the
*verb* "pick up" and an *adverb* for "try":
tara' nei arap pera bura sa ikat.
(she RCP) (pick_up try) (rock CVY) COMPL
She tries to pick up the rock.
Lit. she picks up tryingly the rock.
(I've parenthesized the first level structure of the sentence to make it
easier to follow.)
Compare this construction with something similar where English also uses
an adverb:
tara' nei arap tsat bura sa ikat.
(she RCP) (pick_up fast) (rock CVY) COMPL
She picks up the rock quickly.
Lit. she picks up fast the rock.
Similarly, the translation of "Stop doing that!" does not use a
participle for "to do", but has "to do" as the main verb, and "stop" as
a modifier:
kakai bat!
do stop
Stop!, or, Stop it!
Lit. Do stoppingly!
Compare this with:
kakai umai!
do again
Do it again!
Now, Tatari Faran *does* have infinitive constructions, which are not
used here because an actual action is happening. Infinitives are used
when the action is hypothetical:
tara' sei tapa pasanan da ihan mihati bata.
tara' sei tapa pasanan (na) i-han mihat-i bata
(she CVY) go (city RCP) (AUX_RCP-friend) meet-INF COMPL
She goes to the city to meet (her) friend.
Lit. She goes to city friend to meet.
The action here (going) is actual, whereas the infinitive (to meet) is
hypothetical (at least as far as this sentence is concerned---it
expresses intention and says nothing about whether the meeting actually
took place).
(The parenthesized (na) indicates the lexical form of the masculine
receptive particle as opposed to the mutated form caused by the trailing
-nan in the previous word.)
So you see, infinitives don't have to be cut-and-dry in conlangs. TF
uses adverbs-of-manner for things like start/stop/try/etc., and
infinitives for hypotheticals. It also has gerundives, a completely
different construct, which are used in speech (for reported events) as
well as nominalized actions.
T
--
Don't drink and derive. Alcohol and algebra don't mix.
Messages in this topic (13)
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4m. Re: How to kick the infinitive habit
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 12:36 am (PDT)
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
>>On 10/1/06, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>P.S. If you want infinitive-less natlangs, consider Bulgarian and Modern
>>
>>Greek.
>>
>>And I don't know much about Bulgarian, but here's a bit of info on Modern
>>Greek.
Nor I, but from what I understand it works in essentially the same way
as your examples you gave from modern Greek. Its sister language,
Macedonian, also has no infinitive. I understand that although
Serbo-Croat still officially has an infinitive, its use is dying out.
Albanian also has no infinitive, using instead a noun clause in a
similar manner to Bulgarian, Macedonian & modern Greek.
Even languages that do have infinitives often require a noun clause
where we use an infinitive; for example:
I want to come ~ Je veux venir
BUT -
I want you to come ~ Je veux que vous veniez [_veniez_ being subjunctive]
>>Modern Greek has a form called the "infinitive" (aparemphato), but it
>>serves a different function that's rather unlike the
>>English/German/Romance/etc. infinitive, so let's ignore that for now.
>>(Essentially, it's used to create perfective sentences of the kind "I
>>have Xed/I had Xed/I will have Xed", where the "Xed" part uses this
>>"infinitive". Though the English form "Xed", which might be called the
>>(passive) past participle, is also invariable for person, number, and
>>tense, so it's perhaps also a kind of infinitive....)
No - the English form is the perfect participle (which is passive if
verb is transitive). Participles (verbal adjectives) happen to be
invariable in modern English in the same way that adjectives are.
But the origin of 'have+p.p.' in the Romance & Germanic langs is known
well enough - and has been discussed on this list more than once. It is
found in Latin as early as Plautus (late 3rd, early 2nd cent BCE),
though it always remained part of the colloquial language rather than
the literary language.
>
> The word for an non-finite verb-form is "infinite". The label "infinitive" is
> usually restricted to nounish infinite verb-forms.
>
>>From your description, the "aparemphato" reminds me of the Swedish form called
> "supine"*, which is only used to form compound tenses.
Yep - I think that is a fair statement, tho the diachronic origin of the
Greek & Swedish forms are different. The modern Greek invariable form
used with "have" is thought to be derived from old aorist infinitive
forms (tho IIRC some think they are derived from 3rd sing. of aorist
subjunctive).
> * Despite the name, it has no relation or apparent similarity to the Latin
> verb-form of the same name.
Except, of course, that in both languages the supine looks vaguely like
the perfect participle, but different :)
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}
Messages in this topic (13)
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5. Reminder: Next Bay Area Conlang meetup: Oct 14th
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 11:15 pm (PDT)
[BCCed to the meetup email list; email me if you want to be on it and
aren't already]
Google Calendar invite:
http://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=NXB0ZjQ4ZHYwaHRhNDE5aDI4M2podTk0ZThfMjAwNjEwMTRUMjEwMDAwWiBzYWl6YWlAZ21haWwuY29t&tmsrc=c2FpemFpQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ
Confirmed so far: Doug, Chris / twpsyn, Leland, John Q, Yoni, Kelly /
aliothsan, Alex, and me
When: 2nd Saturday every other month (next: Oct 14th '06)
Time: 2pm
Place: Golden Gate Park arboretum
Bring with you:
* picnic blankets
* food and/or drink
* 5 sentences in a conlang (or toylang), translated into English
- minimally complex, but enough to show off one aspect of the language
- ... and be enough that, with those 5 sentences, others can recreate
the grammar in question (e.g. tense - I ate the dog, I will eat the
dog, I am eating the dog at the very moment, I am eating the dog but
not right this second because right this second I'm talking but
generally speaking I'm in the middle of it, ...)
Directions courtesy of Leland:
>From the 9th St. GGP entrance per map above:
>From that spot one would walk into the park roughly a block until you
saw the Arboretum entrance on your left, just past the Hall of Flowers
etc. On the map, the entrance is just past the intersection of 9th (it
appears) and MLK Jr. Drive.
Walk into the park, go left around the water fountain, down past the
little pond, and off the path into the space between the trees. Look
for the conlang flag, per usual.
>From BART, the route is very, very simple: Get off at Civic Center,
change to MUNI, hop on an outbound N and take it to the intersection
of 9th Avenue and Judah, which leaves you two blocks south of the 9th
Avenue entrance on the map.
Messages in this topic (1)
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