There are 11 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Andreas Johansson
1.2. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Mark J. Reed
1.3. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Andreas Johansson
1.4. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Eugene Oh
2.1. YAEPT French loans (was: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: R A Brown
2.2. Re: YAEPT French loans (was: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: Mark J. Reed
2.3. Re: YAEPT French loans
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
3.1. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
3.2. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
From: Mark J. Reed
3.3. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
From: Jim Henry
4. Revisions of conlangs (was Re: Art is when someone says 'Now' -- or
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
Messages
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1.1. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:20 am ((PDT))
Quoting "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > [beɪtsɪÅ] is probably the closest pronunciation you can get using
> English
> > phonemes to the actual Mandarin reading, especially taking into account the
> > aspiration of the English /p/.
>
> Thanks. :) But I would prefer to use the Mandarin phonemes; I'm just
> bad at pronouncing some of them. :) I can handle the initial
> unaspirated [p], but [É], with or without the [t], eludes me.
> (Actually, I don't even see it on the IPA chart; I'm assuming it's the
> same sound represented by [ç]...)
It isn't. In the 2005 IPA chart, you'll find the later in the palatal column of
the main table, while the former hides below the main chart in the section
"Consonants (co-articulated)". In the 1993 chart, it hides even further down
under "Other symbols".
--
Andreas Johansson
Messages in this topic (37)
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1.2. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:23 am ((PDT))
Ah, I'm blind.
On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> (Actually, I don't even see [ɕ]] on the IPA chart; I'm assuming it's the
> same sound represented by []...)
Found it. "Palatalized voiceless alveolar fricative". So, isn't that
essentially (swtiching to CXS) [S_j]?
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (37)
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1.3. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:30 am ((PDT))
Quoting Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Benct:
> Norrköping is pronounced ['pe:kiÅ]? What??
Norrköping is pronounced [,nOr\`'s\2:pIN] or thereabouts. "Peking" is a popular
nickname of the city, the precise explanation for which is disputed - it may be
a metathesized variant of the element _köping_ "town".
--
Andreas Johansson
Messages in this topic (37)
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1.4. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:35 am ((PDT))
I have never heard of that phenomenon –– of [ts] being an effeminate
allophone –– but rest assured if that were the case, many Westerners who
attempt the approximation can verily be faulted for effeminacy indeed!
I would say that it is a more s-ish version of ç. More sibilant, I should
say. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_fricative>
Indeed, the XSAMPA for it seems to be [s\].
Eugene
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:06 AM, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > [beɪtsɪŋ] is probably the closest pronunciation you can get using English
> > phonemes to the actual Mandarin reading, especially taking into account
> the
> > aspiration of the English /p/.
>
> Thanks. :) But I would prefer to use the Mandarin phonemes; I'm just
> bad at pronouncing some of them. :) I can handle the initial
> unaspirated [p], but [ɕ], with or without the [t], eludes me.
> (Actually, I don't even see it on the IPA chart; I'm assuming it's the
> same sound represented by [ç]...)
>
> Isn't pronouncing [tɕ] as [ts] considered an effeminate speech pattern?
>
> --
> Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.1. YAEPT French loans (was: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:34 am ((PDT))
Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> On 2008-08-12 Mark J. Reed wrote:
>> > Now why don't English people hear
>> > > French words with final stress?
>>
>> We (well, if by "English" you mean "Anglophone") do. Why do you ask?
>
> Because in English many French loanwords are pronounced
> with initial stress. It doesn't surprise me WRT medieval
> loans, but it happens even with recent loans like
> "ménage", especially in British English, in fact.
But you mustn't lump all anglophones together. The Merkans do
consistently give final stress to French loan words, even if they mangle
the vowels, e.g. Markan 'lingerie' almost invariable seems to have final
stressed [e] or [ej]. We Brits keep the correct final vowel, but we do
stress the initial syllable (neither Brits nor Merkans, of course,
normally pronounce the /r/ in the French manner.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.2. Re: YAEPT French loans (was: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:47 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 2:33 PM, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But you mustn't lump all anglophones together. The Merkans do consistently
> give final stress to French loan words
See? :)
> even if they mangle the vowels, e.g. 'lingerie' almost invariably seems to
> have final stressed [e] or
> [ej].
Yup. [YAEPT alert!] I assume y'all put an [i] there. What about
the first syllable? We tend to pronounce that as [an] (vs. French
[&~], I suppose...)
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.3. Re: YAEPT French loans
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:50 am ((PDT))
Mark J. Reed skrev:
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 2:33 PM, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> But you mustn't lump all anglophones together. The Merkans do consistently
>> give final stress to French loan words
>
> See? :)
I did say the initial stress on French loans
was a British habit, actually.
/BP
Messages in this topic (37)
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3.1. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:14 pm ((PDT))
On 2008-08-12 R A Brown wrote:
> LEXICAL CATEGORY
> "(also *part-of-speech*, *word class*)
If you look up "part-of-speech" in an English-Swedish
dictionary you'll find it traslated as _ordklass_.
With all respect toPriscian, Donatus and the guys
I always found "part-of-speech" a silly term.
/BP
Messages in this topic (35)
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3.2. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:16 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> With all respect to Priscian, Donatus and the guys
> I always found "part-of-speech" a silly term.
Agreed. It's both unwieldy and misleading; makes one think the intent
is phonemes or phones or something.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (35)
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3.3. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:42 pm ((PDT))
On 8/12/08, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > With all respect to Priscian, Donatus and the guys
> > I always found "part-of-speech" a silly term.
>
> Agreed. It's both unwieldy and misleading; makes one think the intent
> is phonemes or phones or something.
In gzb a literal translation of "part of speech"
would yield gjâ-θy, language-element, which is
actually lexicalized as meaning "morpheme".
(Phoneme is fĭ-θy "syllable-element";
word is twâ-θy "sentence-element".
"Part of speech" would be ĉĭ-twâ-θy
"kind-sentence-element", I reckon.)
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (35)
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4. Revisions of conlangs (was Re: Art is when someone says 'Now' -- or
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:47 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:07:36 -0400, Herman Miller wrote:
> Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>
> > [earlier versions of Old Albic]
>
> I've done relay translations in a number of different versions of
> Tirelat and Minza. Lately I've been trying to bring some stability to
> these languages, deciding whether to keep older features or newer ones,
> and revising the existing texts to match. In the case of Tirelat, I've
> taken the original alphabet I developed for it (Vlika) and given it to a
> different language (Virelli), so I have to come up with a new alphabet
> (possibly something like Tharkania or Ljörr).
The biggest revisions in the history of the Albic project have
taken place quite a long time ago. Remember that it started as
"Nur-ellen", a descendant of Sindarin, in April 2000. About a
year later, I severed the connection to Tolkien's languages and
reinvented the language from scratch, carrying over a few features
of Nur-ellen, such as the active/stative morphosyntactic alignment
with degrees of volition. The name "Albic" was introduced early
in 2004, replacing the provisional designation "Q" which in turn
originally was an abbreviation of "Quendian", a name which I had
to drop when the language ceased to be a Tolkien derivative for
obvious reasons. Since then, several details in Old Albic have
been changed, such as most of the case endings, but the essence
of the language has been stable for about seven years now.
> > [stability of conlangs]
>
> Before Tirelat, I would decide on a word or a feature of grammar, and it
> would pretty much remain that way. One big difference is that I did
> everything with pencil and paper in the old days. I got carried away
> with revisions on different versions of Tirelat and ended up with a
> mess. You'd think I would've learned not to do that with Minza, but it's
> been through its share of revisions.
Yes, it is similar with Old Albic. While all the texts in existence
can easily be recognized to be in different versions of "the same
language", many details have changed, and no definite canon has been
established so far. I intend to canonize Old Albic by means of the
future web site - the Old Albic canon will be what appears on that
web site and nothing else, everything posted elsewhere will be work
in progress.
> > [conlangs and series]
>
> It can take a while to come up with a consistent "character" for a new
> language. The current version of Tirelat is much like the version in my
> translation of "Tegla Jlána" from 2001.
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/lang/Tirelat/swallow-song.html
>
> Even the old page http://www.io.com/~hmiller/lang/Tirehlat-old.html is
> still recognizable as Tirelat. But if I'd stuck with that version, some
> of the features that have become most characteristic of the language
> (like the verbal morphology with fused evidential+tense suffixes) might
> not have come about.
Likewise, even the oldest versions of Old Albic (from after the
Great Redesign of 2001) are still recognizable as Albic; the overall
character of the language has not changed much during the last few
years.
> By the sixth Conlang relay, I was starting to add genders to nouns.
>
> Ispa ttehaban mi naji mikvidu myn metta fał.
> ("mi" and "naji" agree with "mikvidu", "metta" agrees with "fał")
>
> But later I decided that I preferred the older version of the language
> without noun genders, and the current version of the language has gone
> back to genderless nouns.
>
> Ispa tətexaban my ñaĭ mikvidu myn metti fał.
> "All wells can indeed be cut into tiny pieces."
>
> As much as I remember Tirelat having lots of revisions, the relay texts
> actually aren't as far from the current version of the language as I'd
> thought they might be. The same is true for the Minza relay texts. Most
> of the crazy revisions must have gone on between relays.
There hasn't been much "to-and-fro" movement in the meta-history of
Old Albic, though there have been several changes which I considered
but turned down again without ever publishing them. Looking back at
the language's history, I can say that it gradually stabilized, with
changes now fewer and less pervasive than in earlier times.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (1)
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