There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Derived adpositions (< Linguistic term for ease of changing word
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1.2. Re: Derived adpositions (< Linguistic term for ease of changing word
From: Eugene Oh
1.3. Re: Derived adpositions (< Linguistic term for ease of changing word
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
2.1. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Herman Miller
2.2. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Eugene Oh
2.3. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Andreas Johansson
2.4. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Eugene Oh
2.5. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Michael Poxon
2.6. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Eugene Oh
2.7. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
2.8. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Eugene Oh
2.9. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Andreas Johansson
2.10. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
3.1. Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: Herman Miller
3.2. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: Eugene Oh
3.3. Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: caeruleancentaur
4.1. Re: YAEPT French loans
From: R A Brown
4.2. Re: YAEPT French loans
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
4.3. Re: YAEPT French loans
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
4.4. Re: YAEPT French loans
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
5a. OT: Links (was: Re: Derived adpositions)
From: John Vertical
5b. Re: OT: Links (was: Re: Derived adpositions)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
6a. Sibilants (was: Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: John Vertical
6b. Re: Sibilants (was: Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: Eugene Oh
7. TAN: Day of the Republic.
From: Lars Finsen
Messages
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1.1. Re: Derived adpositions (< Linguistic term for ease of changing word
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:24 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:51:15 -0400, Dana Nutter wrote:
> I have derived prepositions in Sasxsek. The suffix "-u" makes a
> lexical into a preposition.
>
> [examples snup]
In Old Albic, many prepositions are case forms of nouns which
express relations. Some examples:
_and_ 'inside'
_andal_ (inside-LOC) 'in'
_andan_ (inside-ALL) 'into'
_andad_ (inside-ABL) 'out of'
_ras_ 'top'
_rasal_ (top-LOC) 'on'
_rasan_ (top-ALL) 'onto'
_rasad_ (top-ABL) 'from the top'
_dal_ 'bottom'
_dalal_ (bottom-LOC) 'under'
_dalan_ (bottom-ALL) '(to) under'
_dalad_ (bottom-ABL) 'from under'
etc.
The objects of these relational nouns are coded as inalienable
possessors, appearing in the partitive case (locative if inanimate),
they repeat the case ending of the relational noun as an instance
of suffixaufnahme:
_andal amalal cotholol_ (inside-LOC the-LOC-LOC house-LOC-LOC)
'in the house'
_andan amalan cotholon_ (inside-ALL the-LOC-ALL house-LOC-ALL)
'into the house'
_andad amalad cotholod_ (inside-ABL the-LOC-ABL house-LOC-ABL)
'out of the house'
In some daughter languages, the relational nouns form possessive
compounds with their objects (an alternative way of expressing
inalienable possession, in Old Albic used mainly with pronominal
possessors (e.g. _macoth_ 'my house') and phrases such as _cothodvar_
'house-door'), resulting in what is essentially a Daghestanian-style
case construction kit:
_amal cothandal_ 'in the house'
_aman cothandan_ 'into the house'
_amad cothandad_ 'out of the house'
_amal cothorasal_ 'on the house'
_aman cothorasan_ 'onto the house'
_amad cothorasad_ 'from on the house'
_amal cothodalal_ 'under the house'
_aman cothodalan_ 'to under the house'
_amad cothodalad_ 'from under the house'
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (38)
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1.2. Re: Derived adpositions (< Linguistic term for ease of changing word
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:25 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 4:57 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>
> In Old Albic, many prepositions are case forms of nouns which
> express relations. Some examples:
>
> _and_ 'inside'
> _andal_ (inside-LOC) 'in'
> _andan_ (inside-ALL) 'into'
> _andad_ (inside-ABL) 'out of'
>
> _ras_ 'top'
> _rasal_ (top-LOC) 'on'
> _rasan_ (top-ALL) 'onto'
> _rasad_ (top-ABL) 'from the top'
>
> _dal_ 'bottom'
> _dalal_ (bottom-LOC) 'under'
> _dalan_ (bottom-ALL) '(to) under'
> _dalad_ (bottom-ABL) 'from under'
>
> etc.
Oh! This is similar to what I'm doing with Cl. Arithide. Although I do have
a distinction between -dynian, which is simple "to move out of/to exit"
(it's a verb, from the postp. _dus_ "outside") and -irior which is "out from
the inside of". There is some complication too, due to the existence of
different semantically-based lexical classes ("genders" is too confusing, I
think).
So parallel to yours, I have
innos "top surface", with -os for abstractions (declension I)
--> innas "place of the top surface", i.e. "top", with -as for places (II)
--> innum, with locative case
Epsolinnum "on top of the building" (epsol = building)
and
tandos "underneath-ness" (there has to be a word amidst English's millions
for this...)
--> tandas "region underneath (not just surface)", which bears an awkward
similarity to the Malay/Indonesian for "toilet"
--> tandum, with locative case
Saluntandum "on earth", literally "under the heavens" (salum = heaven(s))
>
>
> The objects of these relational nouns are coded as inalienable
> possessors, appearing in the partitive case (locative if inanimate),
> they repeat the case ending of the relational noun as an instance
> of suffixaufnahme:
>
> _andal amalal cotholol_ (inside-LOC the-LOC-LOC house-LOC-LOC)
> 'in the house'
> _andan amalan cotholon_ (inside-ALL the-LOC-ALL house-LOC-ALL)
> 'into the house'
> _andad amalad cotholod_ (inside-ABL the-LOC-ABL house-LOC-ABL)
> 'out of the house'
>
> In some daughter languages, the relational nouns form possessive
> compounds with their objects (an alternative way of expressing
> inalienable possession, in Old Albic used mainly with pronominal
> possessors (e.g. _macoth_ 'my house') and phrases such as _cothodvar_
> 'house-door'), resulting in what is essentially a Daghestanian-style
> case construction kit:
>
> _amal cothandal_ 'in the house'
> _aman cothandan_ 'into the house'
> _amad cothandad_ 'out of the house'
>
> _amal cothorasal_ 'on the house'
> _aman cothorasan_ 'onto the house'
> _amad cothorasad_ 'from on the house'
>
> _amal cothodalal_ 'under the house'
> _aman cothodalan_ 'to under the house'
> _amad cothodalad_ 'from under the house'
>
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
>
Hence Cl. Ar. could be said to save a few letters here and there from not
needing to repeat case endings. ;p
dag = "house"
_dagirum_ 'in the house'
_dagirae_ 'into the house'
_dagedynian/dagirior_ 'out of the house'
_daginnum_ 'on the house'
_daginnis_ 'onto the house'
_daginnior_ 'from on the house'
_dagetandum_ 'under the house'
_dagetandis_ 'to under the house'
_dagetandior_ 'from under the house' (which sounds similar to Hokkien
"everybody gains")
Eugene
Messages in this topic (38)
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1.3. Re: Derived adpositions (< Linguistic term for ease of changing word
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:23 am ((PDT))
Eugene Oh skrev:
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 4:57 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>>
>> In Old Albic, many prepositions are case forms
>> of nouns which express relations. Some
>> examples:
> Oh! This is similar to what I'm doing with Cl.
> Arithide. Although I do have a distinction
> between -dynian, which is simple "to move out
> of/to exit" (it's a verb, from the postp. _dus_
> "outside") and -irior which is "out from the
> inside of". There is some complication too, due
> to the existence of different semantically-
> based lexical classes ("genders" is too
> confusing, I think).
It's the same with Kijeb, for which I'm developing
a fairly extensive set of local case endings.
(as in every once in a month a new idea for deriving
a case ending pops up in my head! :-) I will probably
not create cases for all slots in the monster table
(i.e. the large one) I created at FrathWiki though.
<http://wiki.frath.net/Labels_for_local_cases>
BTW any additions/suggestions for (Latinate) labels
for slots in that table are most welcome!
I guess that not all reflexes of such 'adpositions'
will survive into or be analysable in Sohlob, so
that their Sohlob reflexes will be more of true
adpositions.
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
Messages in this topic (38)
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2.1. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:15 pm ((PDT))
Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> On 2008-08-12 Herman Miller wrote:
> > That would also work for "Jim" Zim ['dz\im],
> > although "John" Zaan ['dza:n] is less
> > recognizable. Zaan ['Za:n] is another
> > possibility.
>
> Would /dzja:n/ be possible?
I have /dzjex/ "kingfisher", so yes, /dzja:n/ would be possible. In
fact, I just did a search and found /dzjon/ "John". :-)
It's been a while since I was familiar with all the details of Tirelat.
Messages in this topic (54)
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2.2. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:33 pm ((PDT))
Oh, right. I'd thought Swedish had gone through yet another round of sound
changes without me noticing.
I'm not very good with CXS -- that's [,nÉÊ'sʲø:pɪÅ]?
Eugene
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Quoting Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Benct:
> > Norrköping is pronounced ['pe:kiÅ<]? What??
>
>
> Norrköping is pronounced [,nOr\`'s\2:pIN] or thereabouts. "Peking" is a
> popular
> nickname of the city, the precise explanation for which is disputed - it
> may be
> a metathesized variant of the element _köping_ "town".
>
>
> --
> Andreas Johansson
>
Messages in this topic (54)
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2.3. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:50 am ((PDT))
Quoting Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Oh, right. I'd thought Swedish had gone through yet another round of sound
> changes without me noticing.
> I'm not very good with CXS ââ that's [,nÉÊ'sʲø:pɪÅ]?
Not quite - [r\`] is a retroflex approximant, and [s\] is palatalized
*post*alveolar (more or less the same as [S_m_j]).
Now, there are dialects which would have an uvular rhotic here.
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Quoting Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > > Benct:
> > > Norrköping is pronounced ['pe:kiÃ
â¹]? What??
> >
> >
> > Norrköping is pronounced [,nOr\`'s\2:pIN] or thereabouts. "Peking" is a
> > popular
> > nickname of the city, the precise explanation for which is disputed - it
> > may be
> > a metathesized variant of the element _köping_ "town".
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andreas Johansson
> >
>
--
Andreas Johansson
Messages in this topic (54)
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2.4. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:31 am ((PDT))
I see, that's now cleared up. But one other question surfaces: is <rk> [Êʲ]
a common sound sequence in all Scandinavian? Swedish only? The Norrköping
dialect only? I ask because I've only heard of <sk> undergoing such a
change.
Eugene
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Quoting Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Oh, right. I'd thought Swedish had gone through yet another round of
> sound
> > changes without me noticing.
> > I'm not very good with CXS -- that's [,nÉÊ'sʲø:pɪÅ]?
>
>
> Not quite - [r\`] is a retroflex approximant, and [s\] is palatalized
> *post*alveolar (more or less the same as [S_m_j]).
>
> Now, there are dialects which would have an uvular rhotic here.
>
> > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Quoting Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > >
> > > > Benct:
> > > > Norrköping is pronounced ['pe:kiÅ<]? What??
> > >
> > >
> > > Norrköping is pronounced [,nOr\`'s\2:pIN] or thereabouts. "Peking" is a
> > > popular
> > > nickname of the city, the precise explanation for which is disputed -
> it
> > > may be
> > > a metathesized variant of the element _köping_ "town".
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andreas Johansson
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Andreas Johansson
>
Messages in this topic (54)
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2.5. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Michael Poxon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:42 am ((PDT))
Yes, Omina does lack fricatives... and yes (oops!) I wasn't aware I'd used
phonetic rather than phonemic transcription in that example. Sorry, of
course they should be slashes, not box brackets. Hold on though, I've just
looked in my sent items and slashes were used throughout. Maybe you meant
someone else?
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eugene Oh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Also, Michael:
>
> Does Omina lack fricatives? Because to substitute [dij] for [dÊ] seemed
> quite counter-intuitive to me. Unless, of course, you meant / / by [ ] and
> the sequence is pronounced the same way as the Welsh example you gave
> below.
>
Messages in this topic (54)
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2.6. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:58 am ((PDT))
Goodness, I must be blind. My bad!
Eugene
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Michael Poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes, Omina does lack fricatives... and yes (oops!) I wasn't aware I'd used
> phonetic rather than phonemic transcription in that example. Sorry, of
> course they should be slashes, not box brackets. Hold on though, I've just
> looked in my sent items and slashes were used throughout. Maybe you meant
> someone else?
> Mike
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene Oh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> Also, Michael:
>>
>> Does Omina lack fricatives? Because to substitute [dij] for [dÊ] seemed
>> quite counter-intuitive to me. Unless, of course, you meant / / by [ ] and
>> the sequence is pronounced the same way as the Welsh example you gave
>> below.
>>
>>
Messages in this topic (54)
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2.7. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:35 am ((PDT))
On 2008-08-13 Eugene Oh wrote:
> I see, that's now cleared up. But one other question surfaces: is
> <rk> [S_j]
> a common sound sequence in all Scandinavian? Swedish only? The
> Norrköping
> dialect only? I ask because I've only heard of <sk> undergoing such a
> change.
> Eugene
>
It has nothing to do with [rk]. As you have observed [rs]
becomes [s`] (Pinyin <sh>) in most Swedish dialects, but
there is also a much older sound change whereby [k] before
front vowels became [s\] (Pinyin <x>) before front vowels,
to be sure by way of [ts\] (Pinyin <q>) which is preserved
in some dialects. Note that the [r] is still intact in
[nor's\2:piN] (as it is pronounced in my lect, alveolar
trill and all! :-) If I were to dare to spell _Norrköping_
in Pinyin it would be "nor-xe-ping" or "nor-qe-ping".
NB the writing system doesn't mark either sound change :-(.
This leads to minimal pairs sometimes, due to later loan
words with velars before front vowels.
If you find CXS hard, have a look at Hentrik's site
<http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>. There's even a
two-way CXS <-> Unicode IPA converter!
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
Messages in this topic (54)
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2.8. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:57 am ((PDT))
Oh, old-fashioned palatalisation! I embarrass myself. :\
I tried learning Swedish once, when I thought I was possibly going for a
European Studies major, specifically in Sweden. It was quite exciting to
learn a non-Sinitically related language that was somewhat tonal! But alas,
that was about two years back and I've forgotten most of what I'd learnt.
Though I still remember things like "Talar du svenska?" and "tvo öl, tack"
(don't ask!). (:
Then my parents advised me it was too narrow a major, so nothing became of
it.
There is a problem with my internet connection thyat lets me access my
email, but nothing on the web. Unfortunately that means I can't see Henrik's
converter at all. :(
Eugene
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 11:34 PM, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>
> It has nothing to do with [rk]. As you have observed [rs]
> becomes [s`] (Pinyin <sh>) in most Swedish dialects, but
> there is also a much older sound change whereby [k] before
> front vowels became [s\] (Pinyin <x>) before front vowels, to be sure by
> way of [ts\] (Pinyin <q>) which is preserved in some dialects. Note that
> the [r] is still intact in
> [nor's\2:piN] (as it is pronounced in my lect, alveolar
> trill and all! :-) If I were to dare to spell _Norrköping_
> in Pinyin it would be "nor-xe-ping" or "nor-qe-ping".
> NB the writing system doesn't mark either sound change :-(.
> This leads to minimal pairs sometimes, due to later loan
> words with velars before front vowels.
>
> If you find CXS hard, have a look at Hentrik's site
> <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>. There's even a
> two-way CXS <-> Unicode IPA converter!
>
>
>
> /BP 8^)>
> --
> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
> à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
> ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
> c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
>
Messages in this topic (54)
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2.9. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:45 pm ((PDT))
Quoting Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I see, that's now cleared up. But one other question surfaces: is <rk> [Êʲ]
> a common sound sequence in all Scandinavian? Swedish only? The Norrköping
> dialect only? I ask because I've only heard of <sk> undergoing such a
> change.
There is no digraph <rk> involved here - <rr> spells /r/ and <k> spells /s\/, as
it normally does before a stressed front vowel (_köping_ is /s\2:piN/).
/k/+front vowel sequences have been reintroduced by loans like _keps_ "cap",
producing orthographic ambiguity. The change is general in Sw. and Norwegian, I
don't recall about Danish, but I believe Icelandic doesn't have it.
--
Andreas Johansson
Messages in this topic (54)
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2.10. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:02 pm ((PDT))
Andreas Johansson skrev:
> Quoting Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> I see, that's now cleared up. But one other question surfaces: is <rk> [Êʲ]
>> a common sound sequence in all Scandinavian? Swedish only? The Norrköping
>> dialect only? I ask because I've only heard of <sk> undergoing such a
>> change.
>
> There is no digraph <rk> involved here - <rr> spells /r/ and <k> spells /s\/,
> as
> it normally does before a stressed front vowel (_köping_ is /s\2:piN/).
> /k/+front vowel sequences have been reintroduced by loans like _keps_ "cap",
> producing orthographic ambiguity. The change is general in Sw. and Norwegian,
> I
> don't recall about Danish, but I believe Icelandic doesn't have it.
Danish doesn't have it. Icelandic has /c/ for _g_
and /c_h/ for _k_ before front vowels and Faroese
has /tS/ (or perhaps /ts\/ w/o aspiration under
like circumstances. Norwegian usually spells /s\/
with _kj_, though not before _i_ or _y_. BTW
Finland Swedish has [ts\] (Pinyin <q>) where
Sweden Swedish has [s\] and [s\] where Sweden
Swedish has [X]. English speakers can safely
use [tS] for /s\/ and [S] for [X] **and** [s`].
/BP
Messages in this topic (54)
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3.1. Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:10 pm ((PDT))
Herman Miller wrote:
>
> I've been thinking about "Beijing" for some reason lately :-) and ended
> up calling it Beiziñ-vor ['bejdz\iN,vOr] in Tirelat, ta-BeidziÅ
> [ta'bejd`z`iN] in Minza. The /z/ in Tirelat is typically [dz] but the
> following /i/ causes it to be palatalized, so it's a good match for the
> Chinese [ts\]. That would also work for "Jim" Zim ['dz\im], although
> "John" Zaan ['dza:n] is less recognizable. Zaan ['Za:n] is another
> possibility. (That's for an American "John" -- an English "John" would
> be Zon or Zon.) I could always write Dzaan or Dzon, although /dz/ is not
> a sequence that occurs in Tirelat.
>
I looked at an older document and found that I already have a Tirelat
version of Beijing: it was BeiziiÅ ['bejdz\i:N]. I think my intention
with the long vowel must have been to put the stress on the second
syllable, but according to the stress rules on the Tirelat web page, the
first syllable gets the stress. (I may want to reexamine the Tirelat
stress rules.)
I also noticed that z /dz/ is the typical equivalent of English /dZ/ as
in Java (Zava), Georgia (the U.S. state, Zorza), and Jamaica (Zameika).
So if I were to borrow the Chinese name for China (Zhongguó), a good
approximation would be Zuñguo-vor.
Messages in this topic (54)
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3.2. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:53 am ((PDT))
ObConculture:
What kind of benchmark do you with concultures use for determining the
source language for a foreign country's name? I'm vacillating between a dose
of realism and easy standardisation.
What I mean is, the Areth aren't supposed to "know" Earth, but if they do
it'd be through English-speaking visiting explorers (or some such). The easy
way would be to standardise the Arithide names for Earthling place names
either all English-derived or original language-derived, but realistically,
the most significant countries (from the perspectives of the "explorers",
wherever they came from and wherever their allegiances lay) would be
contributed in English whereas those known of only later would probably have
their names derived from Lingala or any other language they spoke (due to
things like an increased familiarity with the diversity of Eartling
languages).
Some potential dilemmas include names like Algeria ([aldzeria], [aldze] or
[aldzajr]? Maybe even [dzejer] from the Amazigh) and Egypt ([i:dzipt],
[ajgyptas], [kemet], [ki:mi], [mi:sur] or [ma:sur]?).
There is also an idea I was considering, and wondering if ANADEW: what if
foreign place names were kept in as close a form as possible to their source
language, not being altered to fit declension patterns in the nominative,
only tacking on the appropriate case endings in the other cases?
E.g. Izipt ['i:dzipt] would normally be a declension V noun and have the
accusative _Iziptor_, but because it is a foreign place name takes the
declension II accusative ending instead to give _Izipta_.
Eugene
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Herman Miller wrote:
>
>>
>> I've been thinking about "Beijing" for some reason lately :-) and ended up
>> calling it Beiziñ-vor ['bejdz\iN,vOr] in Tirelat, ta-BeidziÅ [ta'bejd`z`iN]
>> in Minza. The /z/ in Tirelat is typically [dz] but the following /i/ causes
>> it to be palatalized, so it's a good match for the Chinese [ts\]. That would
>> also work for "Jim" Zim ['dz\im], although "John" Zaan ['dza:n] is less
>> recognizable. Zaan ['Za:n] is another possibility. (That's for an American
>> "John" -- an English "John" would be Zon or Zon.) I could always write Dzaan
>> or Dzon, although /dz/ is not a sequence that occurs in Tirelat.
>>
>>
> I looked at an older document and found that I already have a Tirelat
> version of Beijing: it was BeiziiÅ ['bejdz\i:N]. I think my intention with
> the long vowel must have been to put the stress on the second syllable, but
> according to the stress rules on the Tirelat web page, the first syllable
> gets the stress. (I may want to reexamine the Tirelat stress rules.)
>
> I also noticed that z /dz/ is the typical equivalent of English /dZ/ as in
> Java (Zava), Georgia (the U.S. state, Zorza), and Jamaica (Zameika). So if I
> were to borrow the Chinese name for China (Zhongguó), a good approximation
> would be Zuñguo-vor.
>
Messages in this topic (54)
________________________________________________________________________
3.3. Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:51 am ((PDT))
> Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> What kind of benchmark do you with concultures use for determining
> the source language for a foreign country's name? I'm vacillating
> between a dose of realism and easy standardisation.
The Senjecans were the first loquent inhabitants of Earth. As Humans
began to give names to their homes and to the physical features
around them, Senjecas developed four ways to adapt these names in
conformity to the sounds and pitches of the language. Place names
are viewed as abstract nouns and, thus, end in -as. And the earliest
known name of a place is used without change even though the name may
change later.
1. -as is added to the stem of the place name after palatalizing the
final consonant, e.g., ilîryas, i.e., Illyria, continues to be the
name of Albania.
2. Sometimes the final consonant is not palatalized, e.g., ámerîkas.
3. The word 'kûnyas,' country, is suffixed to the name of
the "original" inhabitants, e.g., bélgëkûnyas, land of the Belgians.
4. Sometimes the name is a literal translation, e.g., lhénapêras,
rich coast, i.e., Costa Rica.
Geographic features have the -os ending of concrete nouns, e.g.,
yhélïmôôros, i.e., the Greek Sea, or the Aegean Sea.
The -os ending is changed to -as if the geographic feature becames a
proper noun. Thus, mhészyengôes, western islands, would refer to
any group of islands in the west. But, mhészyengâes means the
British Isles.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (54)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4.1. Re: YAEPT French loans
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:31 pm ((PDT))
Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> Mark J. Reed skrev:
>> On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 2:33 PM, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>> But you mustn't lump all anglophones together. The Merkans do
>>> consistently
>>> give final stress to French loan words
>>
>> See? :)
>
> I did say the initial stress on French loans
> was a British habit, actually.
If it's only Brits you're concerned with, I guess it's for much the same
reason that the French apparently "don't hear" English stress patterns.
Our neighbors across the Channel generally pronounce English borrowings
and English names, stressing them in the French manner; we return the
compliment :)
But this is way off topic.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]
Messages in this topic (54)
________________________________________________________________________
4.2. Re: YAEPT French loans
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:29 am ((PDT))
On 2008-08-13 R A Brown wrote:
> If it's only Brits you're concerned with, I guess it's for much the
> same reason that the French apparently "don't hear" English stress
> patterns. Our neighbors across the Channel generally pronounce
> English borrowings and English names, stressing them in the French
> manner; we return the compliment :)
>
I had a French-born teacher at uni who spoke excellent
Swedish, except for stress patterns!
I guess I just expect speakers of a language with 'free'
stress to be able to reproduce the stress-pattern of
a language with bound stress, but apparently English
English still defaults to word-initial stress just
like Old English did, despite a millennium of massive
Romance and Latin borrowings. A reassuring thought
in a way.
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
Messages in this topic (54)
________________________________________________________________________
4.3. Re: YAEPT French loans
Posted by: "J. 'Mach' Wust" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:02 am ((PDT))
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:29:18 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
...
>I guess I just expect speakers of a language with 'free'
>stress to be able to reproduce the stress-pattern of
>a language with bound stress, but apparently English
>English still defaults to word-initial stress just
>like Old English did, despite a millennium of massive
>Romance and Latin borrowings. A reassuring thought
>in a way.
What's it like with Swedish then? In German, it's not the same everywhere.
While in Germany French loans such as "Billet", "Budget", "Portemonnaie"
etc. are usually stressed on the last syllable, in German-speaking
Switzerland they are usually stressed on the first syllable. So some
varieties still default to word-initial stress, while others don't.
That doesn't prevent Swiss Germans from thinking they'd have a better French
accent than in Germany because while in Germany the stress may be placed
more correctly, it will be accented very exaggeratedly according to Germany
accentuation patterns that make a very marked distinction between stressed
and unstressed syllables.
--
grüess
mach
Messages in this topic (54)
________________________________________________________________________
4.4. Re: YAEPT French loans
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:35 am ((PDT))
On 2008-08-13 J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> > I guess I just expect speakers of a language with 'free'
> > >stress to be able to reproduce the stress-pattern of
> > >a language with bound stress, but apparently English
> > >English still defaults to word-initial stress just
> > >like Old English did, despite a millennium of massive
> > >Romance and Latin borrowings. A reassuring thought
> > >in a way.
>
> What's it like with Swedish then? In German, it's not the same
> everywhere.
There is a strong tendency to give 'exotic' words
a French-like final stress, except that vowel-final
polysyllables get penultimate stress. Interestingly
neither pattern is native-like. English and German
of course are not 'exotic', but huphenated words
like _make-up_ tend to get erroneous final stress.
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
Messages in this topic (54)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. OT: Links (was: Re: Derived adpositions)
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:53 am ((PDT))
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 03:10:02 -0700, David J. Peterson wrote:
>Charlie:
><<
>The current list of Senjecan postpositions can be found at
>wiki.frath.net/Senjecas_postpositions.
> >>
>
>Not quite:
>
><http://wiki.frath.net/Senjecan_postpositions>
>
>:)
If we're going back on the proper way to post hyperlinks, I argue that's not
quite it either, because there is no
page "http://wiki.frath.net/Senjecan_postpositions>" - where, I remind, that
kind of a link points when viewed thru the Listserv www interface, or Henrik's
mirror of it...
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: OT: Links (was: Re: Derived adpositions)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:53 am ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:53:07 -0400, John Vertical wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 03:10:02 -0700, David J. Peterson wrote:
> >Charlie:
> ><<
> >The current list of Senjecan postpositions can be found at
> >wiki.frath.net/Senjecas_postpositions.
> > >>
> >
> >Not quite:
> >
> ><http://wiki.frath.net/Senjecan_postpositions>
> >
> >:)
>
> If we're going back on the proper way to post hyperlinks, I argue that's not
> quite it either, because there is no
> page "http://wiki.frath.net/Senjecan_postpositions>" - where, I remind, that
> kind of a link points when viewed thru the Listserv www interface, or
> Henrik's
> mirror of it...
The problem is simply that Listserv thinks that the address
begins with "http://"; (correct) and ends with the nearest
white space (usually incorrect). So make sure that the
next character after the web address is either the space
character, or the line break, e.g.
" http://wiki.frath.net/Senjecan_postpositions "
< http://wiki.frath.net/Senjecan_postpositions >
or just
http://wiki.frath.net/Senjecan_postpositions
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. Sibilants (was: Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:10 am ((PDT))
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 02:25:14 +0800, Eugene Oh wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:06 AM, Mark J. Reed wrote:
>> I can handle the initial unaspirated [p], but [É], with or without the [t],
>> eludes me. (Actually, I don't even see it on the IPA chart; I'm assuming it's
>> the same sound represented by [ç]...)
> I would say that it is a more s-ish version of ç. More sibilant, I should
> say.
I find [s\] easier to pronounce than [S], BTW. I used to think I had the latter
well down, as it's half-phonemic in Finnish anyway (compareable to the status
of [x] in English) - but it turns out I'm actually pronouncing an *apical*
postalveolar sibilant. Trying a laminal one tends to come off completely wrong-
sounding.
I've seen even [C] called a sibilant, but I can't really consider it such; it's
basically [x_+] and [x] sure isn't sibilant in any sense. If there is a velar
sibilant it's probably one of the realizations of the Swedish /x\/. (One of my
first sketchlangs had this sound in voiced, voiceless and affricate forms...)
And while I'm on the topic, are there postalveolar *non*-sibilants? An alveolar
[T_-] seems to be possible, but not anything further back until we get to
dorsal consonants. That's odd.
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: Sibilants (was: Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:17 am ((PDT))
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 10:10 PM, John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
> I find [s\] easier to pronounce than [S], BTW. I used to think I had the
> latter
> well down, as it's half-phonemic in Finnish anyway (compareable to the
> status
> of [x] in English) - but it turns out I'm actually pronouncing an *apical*
> postalveolar sibilant. Trying a laminal one tends to come off completely
> wrong-
> sounding.
>
> I've seen even [C] called a sibilant, but I can't really consider it such;
> it's
> basically [x_+] and [x] sure isn't sibilant in any sense. If there is a
> velar
> sibilant it's probably one of the realizations of the Swedish /x\/. (One of
> my
> first sketchlangs had this sound in voiced, voiceless and affricate
> forms...)
>
The sound it makes is pretty much s-like to my ears...
>
> And while I'm on the topic, are there postalveolar *non*-sibilants? An
> alveolar
> [T_-] seems to be possible, but not anything further back until we get to
> dorsal consonants. That's odd.
>
That's probably due to the physica structure of our mouths and tongues. The
air channels don't get any wider in that range.
Eugene
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
7. TAN: Day of the Republic.
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:11 pm ((PDT))
Hi,
I've been celebrating the 13th of August for some years, because it's
the biggest Urianian national holiday, commemorating the proclamation
of the republic in 1934. Thus, next year we are going to have an
especially big celebration.
People who watched me in 1984 thought I was even crazier than they
had even fancied me as being, but I'm hoping that I stand out less
here. Are there any others who celebrate national or religious
holidays of their conworlds?
Anyway, 3 cheers for the Republic! Cuvun ran, elf je lai! (Long life
to green, white and blue!)
LEF
Messages in this topic (1)
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