There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: USAGE: Esperanto for "run away"
From: Lars Finsen
2.1. Re: Velar and uvular fricatives and approximants (was: 'out-' affix
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
3. CXS and IPA symbols for uvular approximant
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
4a. Re: Sibilants (was: Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: Lars Mathiesen
4b. Re: Sibilants (was: Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
5.1. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
From: caeruleancentaur
6. Re: Books at Lulu.com
From: taliesin the storyteller
7a. Re: Most common consonant cluster types cross-linguistically
From: David McCann
Messages
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1a. Re: USAGE: Esperanto for "run away"
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:11 am ((PDT))
Den 15. aug. 2008 kl. 19.26 skreiv Mark J. Reed:
>
>
> ObConlang: How would you translate "run far away"/"run (away) to a far
> place" in your CL? I'm trying to capture the "run" sense literally,
> not just the sense of "run away" = "flee".
Urianian has an adverb ony meaning "far away". Actually it's a
locative, and it has an accusative form onja and an ablative form
onjat as well. "Run far away" would then be pirde onja. There is an
adverb evi meaning "away", too. And a verb formed by adding this
adverb, opirde, meaning "run away". "Run far away" could thus be
expressed with an amplifying particle as opirenjid.
Suraetua also has an adjective/adverb/noun "huna" meaning "far away",
its form with the -a ending being the nominal form. So "run far away"
would then be simply "hunti wini", with "hunti" being the allative of
"huna". Also used for "far away" is aka, "away", with the addition of
the amplifying particle -egi. Thus, akaegi wini also means "run far
away".
LEF
Messages in this topic (11)
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2.1. Re: Velar and uvular fricatives and approximants (was: 'out-' affix
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:33 am ((PDT))
Alaekos Fink isnerq (Alex Fink wrote):
> But many Spanishes have [M\] for weak /g/ (where
> some others have [G]), and [M\w] > [w] is if
> anything even a more natural change. I don't
> have the impression there's anything especially
> disfavoured about [Gw], though I can't think of
> a good example offhand.>
Very possibly my "[G]" is actually [M\] then. I
essentually use the sound I heard Icelanders
use, and indeed I can make a voiced velar
fricative that is a good deal raspier (and more
stable next to [N] and [w]) without becoming
either [g] or [R].
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
Messages in this topic (76)
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3. CXS and IPA symbols for uvular approximant
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:36 am ((PDT))
BTW has there been any proposal for a symbol for
an approximant [R] distinct from a fricative [R]?
I suppose differentiating between U+0281 LATIN
LETTER SMALL CAPITAL INVERTED R and U+1D1A LATIN
LETTER SMALL CAPITAL TURNED R won't do (and how to
find a CXS for that?) so I hereby propose U+01A3
LATIN SMALL LETTER OI = LATIN SMALL LETTER GHA
with CXS [q\] for the voiced uvular approximant.
The Sohlob "q" very definitely is [q\]. The Persian
sound transcribed "q" seems to be (fricative) [R] and
even [G\] sometimes.
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
c'est qu'elles meurent." (Victor Hugo)
Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Sibilants (was: Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "Lars Mathiesen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:51 am ((PDT))
2008/8/15 Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> But if so, isn't T_- = s?
Well, if T isn't sibilant, why should T_- be?
It's true that if you look at an IPA chart, there's an assumption that
each PoA has only one sort of fricative -- alveolar and post-alveolar
fricatives are sibilants, dental ones are not -- and that there's no
need to indicate otherwise (like a non-sibilant diacritic).
But this turns out to be less than universally true for close
transcription. When you actually have a non-sibilant (post-)alveolar
fricative, like in Danish rødgrød med fløde ["R9?D_-gR)D_- mE
fl9D_-:], you have to base the notation on another non-sibilant
fricative, and a retracted dental fricative is what you end up with.
I don't know if anybody has ever tried to teach the IPA about red
jelly with cream, but it's not like Danish is newly discovered so they
might have corrected their oversight. On the other hand, Danish
phonological literature universally uses D for the phoneme, since
there's no need to contrast it with a dental fricative and the
printers used to have loads of the curly d's around from printing
Icelandic.
--
Lars
Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: Sibilants (was: Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:27 am ((PDT))
On 2008-08-17 Lars Mathiesen wrote:
> I don't know if anybody has ever tried to teach
> the IPA about red jelly with cream, but it's not
> like Danish is newly discovered so they might
> have corrected their oversight. On the other
> hand, Danish phonological literature universally
> uses D for the phoneme, since there's no need to
> contrast it with a dental fricative and the
> printers used to have loads of the curly d's
> around from printing Icelandic.
>
I have long been of the opinion that the IPA ought
to introduce turned ð (eth) (or lower-case delta
or U+1D06 LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL ETH) for the
Danish sound which to my mind is markedly
different from both the English or Icelandic
sound. The Icelandic sound is clearly alveolar,
[D_-] or [z_m], but the Danish sound is to boot an
approximant [D_-_o] rather than a fricative
(though the gods know [D_-_o] occurs as an
allophone in Icelandic too: _góður_ with the
approximant sounds markedly different from _góð_
with the fricative.
I hearby propose [D\] as an abbreviation for [D_-
_o] in CXS. (Yes, I'm in a symbols-proposing mood
today! :-)
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte
se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires
crient à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues
ni le soleil ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où
elles se *fixent*, c'est qu'elles meurent."
(Victor Hugo)
Messages in this topic (11)
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5.1. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:54 am ((PDT))
> Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Perhaps _som-dzôôn-m-us_ becomes _stsôôm(u)s_ or )_zdzôôm(u)s_
> colloquially!
Thanks for the suggestion! I haven't done any work at all in
developing Senjecas into daughter languages.
Odd that I did have words for half-sibling, though, depending on
whether a father or a mother was shared.
somâmëmus = sharing same mother.
somâfmus = sharing same father.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (52)
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6. Re: Books at Lulu.com
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:58 am ((PDT))
* Rick Harrison said on 2008-08-17 05:53:16 +0200
> If you're a collector you might want to own a copy of Basic
> Sileerian. I reviewed it on my blog...
>
> http://langbreeze.blogspot.com/2008/06/book-of-week-3.html
I have very limited room for books (out of shelves and I buy
quite a few sf paperbacks in a year) and since your review
wasn't glowing...
> I made the following terse handwritten list of Lulu items that
> I intend to buy "someday"... maybe it can help in your
> searches --
>
> /../
> Vinyar Tengwar
I went with the oldest of these, VT 1-10. Now I know how Lulu
makes its money, it gotta be in the freight! Two VTs+IL made the
freight more expensive than the books again while 3 VTs+IL made
the freight slightly less than the books...
Almost a reason for getting an ISBN that, making it easy to
order Lulu-books from outside Lulu itself. But of course, ISBNs
don't come cheap...
t.
Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: Most common consonant cluster types cross-linguistically
Posted by: "David McCann" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:50 am ((PDT))
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 08:47 -0400, Jim Henry wrote:
> Is there any comparative data available on what are the most
> common kinds of consonant cluster across different languages?
> E.g., my impression is that nasal + nasal and plosive + plosive
> onset clusters as in Greek (mnemo, ptera, etc) are rarer than
> clusters that mix different manners of articulation, like fricative + plosive
> or plosive + fricative; but how much has this been quantified?
The answers to this so far seem to be muddling several different
phenomena. You are obviously interested in clusters within a syllable,
while some people are talking about groups at syllable boundaries. As
for affricates like /ts/, these are not clusters (which is one of the
reasons why I prefer the Americanist notation to IPA: /c/).
I don't know of any statistical studies, but my own observations suggest
1. The commonest initial clusters are stop+semivowel, followed by stop
+liquid.
2. The commonest final clusters are nasal+stop, followed by liquid+stop.
Many languages have extrasyllabic consonants: initial and final clusters
that can only occur word- initially or finally. English can have a word
ending in /Åθs/, but not an internal syllable; Dutch can have a word
beginning in /str/ but not an internal syllable. The unnerving initial
clusters in Polish and Georgian mostly include extrasyllabics, and are
word-initial only.
Messages in this topic (5)
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