There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
From: ROGER MILLS
1.2. Re: OT: Clones (was: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
1.3. Re: OT: Clones (was: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class
From: caeruleancentaur
1.4. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
From: Lars Finsen
1.5. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
From: Jim Henry
2a. Re: Sibilants (was: Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
3a. Re: Most common consonant cluster types cross-linguistically
From: Eldin Raigmore
3b. Re: Most common consonant cluster types cross-linguistically
From: Eldin Raigmore
4a. Re: Stress and vowel length in Tirelat
From: David J. Peterson
5a. Re: Books at Lulu.com
From: Rick Harrison
5b. Re: Books at Lulu.com
From: René Uittenbogaard
6.1. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: J R
6.2. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
6.3. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: Eugene Oh
7a. Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
From: taliesin the storyteller
7b. Re: Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
From: David J. Peterson
7c. Re: Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
From: taliesin the storyteller
7d. Re: Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
From: Jim Henry
8a. "Register" a grammatical term
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
8b. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
From: caeruleancentaur
9. Grammar checker
From: Henrik Theiling
10. Re: OT: Clones
From: David McCann
11a. Re: Sibilants
From: David McCann
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
Posted by: "ROGER MILLS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:25 am ((PDT))
> > Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In particular, how to translate the adjectival or apposite
> > use of "clone" modifying "wars"?
My contribution to the clone wars:
Kash has two words: native andrangayi (copy-life < aN-(o)rana + kayi)
'clone of a plant or animal', which they've been able to do for some time
(animals not so successfully)
Borrowed katóç 'clone of a human being' < Galactic "ktosh". They haven't
tried this yet-- one aspect of Galactic technology they're a little
suspicious of........ (I think ktosh is from Larry Niven; John Cowan
(probably) mentioned it long ago.)
e ayokoç katoçili def. war-pl clone-pl-gen. [é(j)a'jokoS kato'Silji]
Gwr surely has terms, but I haven't found them yet. likely ktosh would > ko
toh (low-high) or maybe to So (hi-low) vel sim. Their scientists would love
to try it....they understand how, but their tech just isn't quite up to it,
and the Galactics don't share everything.
Messages in this topic (57)
________________________________________________________________________
1.2. Re: OT: Clones (was: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:37 am ((PDT))
On 2008-08-17 ROGER MILLS wrote:
> Borrowed katóç 'clone of a human being' < Galactic "ktosh". They
> haven't tried this yet-- one aspect of Galactic technology they're a
> little suspicious of........ (I think ktosh is from Larry Niven; John
> Cowan (probably) mentioned it long ago.)
>
>
How does your (not just Roger's) concultures
handle the issue of human (or other higher
sentient being) clones. Are they socially
and legally equal to natural people or are
they a lower caste/slaves? Both Star Wars
and Bladerunner make their engineered humans
be physically and mentally different, and in
both cases shorter life span is a key
ingredient. How have other SF authors
handled the theme?
None of my concultures is SF, but I guess
that the Sohlosjan may at least believe in
the possibility of a clone produced by
magic or alchemy (which for everybody but
practicing alchemists would amount to the
same thing!)
/BP
Messages in this topic (57)
________________________________________________________________________
1.3. Re: OT: Clones (was: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:13 pm ((PDT))
> Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How does your (not just Roger's) concultures
> handle the issue of human (or other higher
> sentient being) clones.
In the Senjecan culture cloning is outlawed. It is practiced by the
oldest of the archimages who turned away from the Right Way. By
cloning she has created the aberrant creatures of mixed species such as
centaurs, gryphons, satyrs, etc. The names of these creatures in
Senjecas are in the -øs noun class.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (57)
________________________________________________________________________
1.4. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:52 am ((PDT))
Den 17. aug. 2008 kl. 05.33 skreiv Jim Henry:
> I saw _The Clone Wars_ today -- no conlang content except
> for a few lines of dialogue in Huttese, which barely counts
> anyway, so enough of that -- no, the reason I revived this thread
> is the problems that occurred to me when I wrote in my
> journal this evening about seeing the movie: how to translate
> the title into gzb? In particular, how to translate the
> adjectival or apposite use of "clone" modifying "wars"?
Wouldn't most languages simply combine "wars" in the nominative with
"clone" in the genitive, perhaps preferably plural. English has a
special way of creating compounds. Germanic in general compounds
well. Celtic and Greek, too, and some non-Indoeuropean languages like
Finnish. But not all languages do.
> (I didn't have a word for "clone"
> yet, and worried that I might need a new root word, but a few
> moments' thought yielded {tâ-čĭ}, "sibling-copy".)
In Suraetuan they have the word "sylak" for twin. Literally it means
"having a soul in common". Maybe that could be said of clones, too...
LEF
Messages in this topic (57)
________________________________________________________________________
1.5. Re: Linguistic term for ease of changing word-class (was: 'out-' aff
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:31 am ((PDT))
On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 5:58 AM, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> In particular, how to translate the adjectival or apposite
>> use of "clone" modifying "wars"? (I didn't have a word for "clone"
>> yet, and worried that I might need a new root word, but a few
>> moments' thought yielded {tâ-Ä Ä}, "sibling-copy".) I tried out
.....
> I also did not have a word for 'clone.' First, I had to create a
> word for sibling! I went with som-dzôôn-m-us, i.e., same-parent-
> having-person. Then I prefixed that to kwêraþus, creature. Result:
> somdzóónmëkwêraþus. A bit longer than 'clone,' n'est-ce pas?
If you already had words for "brother" and "sister", maybe you
could form unrelated words for "male clone" and "female clone"
with the language having no general word for "clone of either sex".
Some languages have no general word for "sibling" or "cousin
of either sex" etc.
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 4:46 AM, Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wouldn't most languages simply combine "wars" in the nominative with "clone"
> in the genitive, perhaps preferably plural. English has a special way of
Sure. In a naturalistic artlang, I would do that without agonizing over it
for a minute. But the point of this thread, or the sub-thread, that I revived
when this issue occurred to me was that a vague, general-purpose adjectival
or genitive derivation might not be a good thing in an engelang/auxlang.
gzb leans toward the engelang end of the engelang-artlang spectrum
(not auxlangy at all) and has more precise adjectival suffixes and
genitive-like postpositions, none of which correspond exactly to an
English apposite noun as in "Clone Wars" or any IE lang's genitive
for that matter.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang/fluency-survey.html
Conlang fluency survey -- there's still time to participate before
I analyze the results and write the article
Messages in this topic (57)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Sibilants (was: Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:57 am ((PDT))
It occurred to me that since Tamil (['t6mIr\`] or
even ['t6mIK\`]!, more nativistically
transliterated "Tamizh") native speakers find "z"
to be a suitable transliteration of that
languages' alveolar obstruent phoneme it probably
has an [D\] allophone beside [r\]. Tamil /t_d/ has
an [D_o] allophone and /t`/ an [r´] allophone.
/BP
Benct Philip Jonsson skrev:
> On 2008-08-17 Lars Mathiesen wrote:
> > I don't know if anybody has ever tried to
> > teach the IPA about red jelly with cream, but
> > it's not like Danish is newly discovered so
> > they might have corrected their oversight. On
> > the other hand, Danish phonological
> > literature universally uses D for the
> > phoneme, since there's no need to contrast it
> > with a dental fricative and the printers used
> > to have loads of the curly d's around from
> > printing Icelandic.
> >
>
> I have long been of the opinion that the IPA
> ought to introduce turned ð (eth) (or lower-
> case delta or U+1D06 LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL
> ETH) for the Danish sound which to my mind is
> markedly different from both the English or
> Icelandic sound. The Icelandic sound is clearly
> alveolar, [D_-] or [z_m], but the Danish sound
> is to boot an approximant [D_-_o] rather than a
> fricative (though the gods know [D_-_o] occurs
> as an allophone in Icelandic too: _góður_ with
> the approximant sounds markedly different from
> _góð_ with the fricative.
>
> I hearby propose [D\] as an abbreviation for [D_-
> _o] in CXS. (Yes, I'm in a symbols-proposing
> mood today! :-)
>
> /BP 8^)>
> --
> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch
> dotte se
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~-
> ~~~~~~~~
> "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires
> crient à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues
> ni le soleil ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où
> elles se *fixent*, c'est qu'elles meurent."
> (Victor Hugo)
>
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Most common consonant cluster types cross-linguistically
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:37 am ((PDT))
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 19:25:19 -0400, J. 'Mach' Wust
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 13:47:02 -0400, Eldin Raigmore wrote:
>>If you count affricates as clusters, then homorganic stop+fricative (/ts/)
>>and homorganic fricative+stop (/st/) are almost surely the most common.
>
>My impression is that these are not common at all except for the two samples
>you just mentioned. I don't know any language that'd feature homorganic /fp/
>or /xk/. Not that I'd know a large number of languages, but my knowledge is
>mostely restricted to Indogermanic languages, and these are rich in
>consonant clusters. On the other hand, affricates such as /ts/ or /tS/ may
>be fairly common, but I've learned that affricates such as /pf/ or /kx/ are
>quite "exotic".
>
>In the clusters composed of a stop and a fricative, there might be a
>preference for clusters that involve dental or alveolar sounds. That is to
>say, my impression is that clusters such as /st/ /ft/ /xt/ /sp/ /sk/ /ts/
>/ps/ /ks/ are more common than for instance /xk/ /fp/ /fk/ /pf/ /px/.
>--
>gr�ess
>mach
Maybe you're right. Do you have a reference for any hard data? For instance,
would the UPSID database allow one to find that information?
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:48:19 +0100, David McCann
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The answers to this so far seem to be muddling several different
>phenomena. You are obviously interested in clusters within a syllable,
>while some people are talking about groups at syllable boundaries.
I'm not sure how obvious that was; but at least clearly we want to
differentiate the places the clusters occur.
I was able to find information -- or at least professional guesses -- about
word-initial or word-final clusters, but not just "clusters" in general.
The answers will be different for word-initial vs word-final vs word-internal
clusters; and for onset-clusters vs coda-clusters; and, possibly, if there are
enough languages allowing three-or-more consecutive consonants in a
syllable, for onset-initial vs onset-final vs onset-internal, or coda-initial
vs
coda-final vs coda-internal, clusters.
>As for affricates like /ts/, these are not clusters
Maybe not.
>I don't know of any statistical studies,
Does anyone? I will try to find some.
> but my own observations suggest
>1. The commonest initial clusters are stop+semivowel, followed by stop
>+liquid.
>2. The commonest final clusters are nasal+stop, followed by liquid+stop.
Laver (I am referring to "Principles of Phonetics" by John Laver, Professor
of Phonetics at University of Edinburgh, one of the "Cambridge
Textbooks in Linguistics", copyrighted and published 1994 by
Cambridge University Press. Its ISBN is 0-521-45644-X and its
Library of Congress number is P221.L293 1994) seems to suggest that
nonhomorganic approximant+fricative, nonhomorganic approximant+stop,
nonhomorganic fricative+approximant, and nonhomorganic stop+approximant,
would be quite frequent. Here "approximant" could be read as "semivowel or
liquid".
I don't remember any differences he might have mentioned between initial
clusters and final clusters.
WALS.info, in the "syllable structure" chapter, suggest that there are many
languages with (C)(C)V(C) syllable-structures in which the second consonant
of the onset-cluster must come from a restricted set of fairly sonorous
consonants, such as semivowels, liquids, or nasals; those languages would
drive up the number of initial clusters that were stop+semivowel,
fricative+semivowel, stop+liquid, fricative+liquid, fricative+nasal, and
nasal+semivowel.
>Many languages have extrasyllabic consonants: initial and final clusters
>that can only occur word- initially or finally. English can have a word
>ending in /ŋθs/, but not an internal syllable; Dutch can have a word
>beginning in /str/ but not an internal syllable. The unnerving initial
>clusters in Polish and Georgian mostly include extrasyllabics, and are
>word-initial only.
Interesting and relevant. Thanks.
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Most common consonant cluster types cross-linguistically
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:09 am ((PDT))
(Previously I had referred to
< http://tinyurl.com/5jdxd4 >
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the UPSID site,
< http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/index/sounds.html >
has these:
Clusters
Clusters in Tsou
< http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/tsou/tsou.html >
Clusters in Polish
< http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/polish.html >
Voiced+voiceless clusters in Zhu|h�asi
< http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/zhu/zhu.html >
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
< http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/polish.html >
furthermore has these:
Affricates
<
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/polish.html#anchor1
3848622 >
<
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/pcombined/polish4.w
av >
Word-internal consonant clusters.
<
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/polish.html#anchor1
3893712 >
<
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/pcombined/polish2.w
av >
Word-initial consonant clusters.
<
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/polish.html#anchor1
3899908 >
<
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/pcombined/polish3.w
av >
Word-final consonant clusters.
<
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/polish.html#anchor1
3910232 >
<
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/pcombined/polish5.w
av >
Clusters across word boundaries.
<
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/polish.html#anchor1
3914945 >
<
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/pcombined/polish6.w
av >
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And that's all I could find about clusters in the UPSID site.
But
< http://web.phonetik.uni-frankfurt.de/upsid_info.html >
has interesting stuff on the frequencies of the various sounds (that is, the
number of languages that have each sound.).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most stuff I find about clusters are about language-acquisition, and about
errors involving clusters. This pdf
< http://chhs.sdsu.edu/slhs/publications/barlow112.pdf >
is one such example. It might be worth reading anyway, though; the
constraints mentioned probably represent that particular professional
linguist's
guesses as to which types of clusters are most common cross-linguistically in
various positions.
This pdf
< http://chhs.sdsu.edu/slhs/publications/barlow129.pdf >
is another example that may be worth reading.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
< http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~gdanelis/OSUWPL55.pdf >
says:
Many have noted language preferences for sequential contrasts. Greenberg
(1978), for example, gives some crosslinguistic generalizations in terms of
obstruent consonant clusters:
(6) Contrast in continuancy is favored over its absence:
a) TTV -> FTV, TFV
b) VTT -> VFT, VTF
c) FFV -> FTV, TFV
d) VFF -> VFT, VTF
In (6) T stands for a stop consonant, V for any vowel and F for a fricative
consonant. (6a) then should be read as a stop + stop (TT) consonant cluster
before a vowel (V) is less common cross-linguistically than a fricative + stop
(FT) or a stop + fricative (TF) before a vowel (V). The same applies for
postvocalic stop clusters as well (6b) and clusters with two fricatives (6c-d).
According to these cross-linguistic observations, contrast in continuancy
between adjacent prevocalic obstruent segments is more common than not.
Notice, that Greenberg does not talk about the perceptibility of such clusters,
but only about how they pattern quantitatively in the world�s languages9.
Functional models based on salient acoustic modulations in segment sequences
have also been proposed to account for the type of generalizations given in
(6). (Ohala 1992, Wright 1996). These approaches emphasize both the
inherent qualities of segments and their syntagmatic optimization in terms of
acoustic salience. For example, [s] is more perceptible than [, and a [t]
before a vowel is more perceptible than a [t] before another stop.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
< http://www.stanford.edu/~anttila/teaching/lsa-2007/lsa-singlish-final.pdf >
might help.
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: Stress and vowel length in Tirelat
Posted by: "David J. Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:41 pm ((PDT))
Herman Miller:
<<
The absence of CV:CV: seems to need an explanation, but it could be a
shortening of vowels in unstressed syllables.
>>
I don't think so, necessarily. It could be as simple as you can't
have two long vowels in the same stem--or prosodic word, if
you like. After all, didn't Ancient Greek have a prohibition on
too many aspirated consonants in a row?
HM:
<<
Many of the CV:CV in the current language can be traced back to words
that were CVCV in older versions of Tirelat, so the inconsistent
lengthening may be little more than inconsistent documentation.
>>
Ah. Well, now we've stepped out of the fictional history of the
language and into the real history of the language.
HM:
<<
But part of that is due to lengthening vowels deliberately to get the
stress patterns that I wanted.
>>
This, of course, is a byproduct of exactly what I was suggesting:
length attracts stress in this language, and not the other way
around. :)
HM:
<<
With the three-syllable words, 'CVCVCV is common; CV'CV:CV and
CVCV'CV: are less common, but also exist.
>>
No Finnish CV:CVCV?
HM:
<<
I suspect there are elements of both stress accent and vowel length
in this distinction, and that one or the other may be more prominent
in different circumstances...
>>
If you really want to figure out what's going on so you can
faithfully reproduce it in future lexemes, what you have to do
is subject your corpus to a corpus analysis. Everything must
be marked for stress and length, and then, just analyze that
puppy up and see what's what. It's hard to analyze something
with only a few tokens.
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: Books at Lulu.com
Posted by: "Rick Harrison" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:42 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:56:59 +0200, taliesin the storyteller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Almost a reason for getting an ISBN that, making it easy to
>order Lulu-books from outside Lulu itself. But of course, ISBNs
>don't come cheap...
I have some ISBNs in my custody but I'm saving them for a special occasion.
I had to buy 10 long ago when I published a book, although I only needed
one. So I've got 9 left over.
Distribution of the next issue of Invented Languages will be handled better.
Sorry about the shipping costs.
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Books at Lulu.com
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:23 am ((PDT))
That's a cool 2d (language?) diagram on the cover. What's that
language called? Or is it just a drawing of a bird?
René
2008/8/18 Rick Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Distribution of the next issue of Invented Languages will be handled better.
> Sorry about the shipping costs.
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6.1. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "J R" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:17 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:39 PM, Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 2:16 AM, Alex Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hebrew did [w] > [j], though I don't know in what context. My memory
> dimly
> > suggests that Hebrew for 'rose' is something like /jered/, from a Semitic
> > prototype with *w- ('rose' with a shape like /ward/ was something of a
> > Wanderwort).
> >
>
> Google's not good for searching for sound changes, I find. :\ Though thanks
> for the example! Is any Hebrew-speaker around who can shed more light on
> this? (:
Hebrew had such a change word-initially. See for example Arabic /walad/ vs.
Hebrew /jElEd/ 'boy'. A certain amount of morphophonemic variation was
created - 'to be born' shares the same root, but still contains /w/:
/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/. (And in Modern Israeli Hebrew of course /w/ is pronounced
/v/,
but that's another matter.)
The ubiquitous conjunction /w@/ 'and, but, change tense', did not undergo
this change.
And the word for 'rose' actually didn't either. My etymological dictionary
says it's a borrowing, ultimately from Iranian.
Josh Roth
Messages in this topic (79)
________________________________________________________________________
6.2. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:44 am ((PDT))
On 2008-08-18 J R wrote:
> The ubiquitous conjunction /w@/ 'and, but,
> change tense', did not undergo this change.
>
A conjunction meaning 'change tense'!?
Sounds good! You will have to explain that. :-)
/BP
Messages in this topic (79)
________________________________________________________________________
6.3. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:50 am ((PDT))
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 1:17 PM, J R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hebrew had such a change word-initially. See for example Arabic /walad/ vs.
> Hebrew /jElEd/ 'boy'. A certain amount of morphophonemic variation was
> created - 'to be born' shares the same root, but still contains /w/:
> /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/. (And in Modern Israeli Hebrew of course /w/ is pronounced
> /v/,
> but that's another matter.)
>
> The ubiquitous conjunction /w@/ 'and, but, change tense', did not undergo
> this change.
>
> And the word for 'rose' actually didn't either. My etymological dictionary
> says it's a borrowing, ultimately from Iranian.
>
> Josh Roth
Ah, illuminating indeed! Many thanks. It seems like a valid inference, from
that, that the Arabic trivocalic system, rather than being the archetypal
"simple predecessor" is actually the product of vowel simplification
(reminds me of someone's theory that the Arab's developed guttural sounds
and simple vowels due to the harsh desert conditions-- was it Sapir?).
And of course I agree with Benct in clamouring for an explanation of the
conjunction that means "change tense"!
Eugene
Messages in this topic (79)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
7a. Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:43 am ((PDT))
Last Friday and Saturday I finally found some time to add
features to CALS. (This also lead to error-messages while I was
adding stuff as I still work directly on the running server.)
1. There is now a halfway state between a language being
editable by all and only being editable by the adder. A lang
can now have editors. Editors can edit a lang but not
add/remove editors.
2. It is now also possible to "hand over" control of a
language to someone else. Being the one to add a language is
now less important, as the rights to control a language (and
add/remove editors) now falls to the manager (which is a bit
of a silly name, please suggest something better). The
person who adds a language automatically becomes its
manager, but since the manager can set somebody else as
manager it is therefore possible to add a language on behalf
of somebody else now.
That said, I would like to hand over "managership" of Klingon
and Esperanto to somebody more suitable, like anyone that
actually knows them beyond being able to say "hello" and "I
don't really speak X"...
t.
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
7b. Re: Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
Posted by: "David J. Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:15 am ((PDT))
So...I don't know if this is a byproduct of the recent changes,
but I can edit Esperanto, but not my own languages--even
though I'm the one who added them and am listed as the
manager. Just a bug?
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
7c. Re: Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:15 am ((PDT))
* David J. Peterson said on 2008-08-18 13:15:25 +0200
> So...I don't know if this is a byproduct of the recent changes,
> but I can edit Esperanto, but not my own languages--even
> though I'm the one who added them and am listed as the
> manager. Just a bug?
Just a bug, thanks, fixed. You could still edit but the change-link
wasn't visible...
t.
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
7d. Re: Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:36 am ((PDT))
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 4:42 AM, taliesin the storyteller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That said, I would like to hand over "managership" of Klingon
> and Esperanto to somebody more suitable, like anyone that
> actually knows them beyond being able to say "hello" and "I
> don't really speak X"...
I could work on the Esperanto entry if you need me to.
Did you get the mail I sent you some days ago to your
gmail address about the error messages I got when I added
information about Toki Pona? If not, I'll resend it to your
nvg.org address.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
8a. "Register" a grammatical term
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:18 am ((PDT))
Could someone with access to Trask's and Crystal's
lingyuistic dictionaries be so kind to look up how
they define "register" as a grammatical term?
Thanks,
/BP
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
8b. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:39 am ((PDT))
> Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Could someone with access to Trask's and Crystal's
> lingyuistic dictionaries be so kind to look up how
> they define "register" as a grammatical term?
>
> Thanks,
Crystal:
(1) A term used in phonetics to refer to the voice quality produced
by a specific physiological constitution of the larnynx. Variations
in the length, thickness and tension of the vocal cords combine to
produce (in singing) the differences between soprano, contralto,
tenor, bass, etc., voices, and also (within one person) such
differences as between 'head' (falsetto) and 'chest' voice. Some
phoneticians use the term in a functional way in relation to speech
to refer to types of phonation which the speaker varies in a
controlled manner (as in creaky and breathy voice).
(2) In stylistics and sociolinguistics, the term refers to a variety
of language defined accordidng to its use in social situationes, e.g.
a register of scientific, religious, formal English. In Hallidayan
linguistics, the term is seen as specifically opposed to varieties of
language defined according to the characteristics of the users (viz,
their regional or class dialect), and is given a subclassification
into field, mode and manner of discourse.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
9. Grammar checker
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:29 am ((PDT))
Hi!
Just found a program on Freshmeat that might be interesting:
http://freshmeat.net/projects/gramadoir/
Bye,
Henrik
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
10. Re: OT: Clones
Posted by: "David McCann" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:44 am ((PDT))
On Sun, 2008-08-17 at 18:38 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> How have other SF authors handled the theme?
Elizabeth Moon: Cloning is illegal in the Familias Regnant, but
commonplace in the Guerni Republic, where they have full citizenship.
Lois Bujold: Clones are generally either the siblings or the children of
their progenitors, depending on which planet you're on. On Jacksons
Hole, which is human-rights-free zone, they are the slaves of whoever
paid for them. On Athos, they are illegal, the process being considered
the sin of vanity!
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
11a. Re: Sibilants
Posted by: "David McCann" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:10 am ((PDT))
On Sun, 2008-08-17, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> I hereby propose U+01A3
> LATIN SMALL LETTER OI = LATIN SMALL LETTER GHA
> with CXS [q\] for the voiced uvular approximant.
> I hearby propose [D\] as an abbreviation for [D_-
> _o] in CXS. (Yes, I'm in a symbols-proposing mood
> today! :-)
I don't care about all this #!*$ CXS stuff, as I'm never going to use
it, but hasn't the IPA got too many symbols already? e.g. pairs that are
never contrasted, like ɘ/ə, ɱ/m. Why not just mark the unusual value or
allophone with a diacritic for retracted or advanced and then use the
simplest possible character? i.e. ð̟ for American English, ð for British
English, and ð̠ for Icelandic; just once, and then ð. Actually, I use δ,
but that's a whole new can of worms.
Messages in this topic (13)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
