There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
1b. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
From: ROGER MILLS
1c. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
From: Jim Henry
1d. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
From: Dana Nutter
1e. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
From: Dana Nutter
2a. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc
From: Daniel Prohaska
3.1. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: ROGER MILLS
3.2. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Lars Finsen
3.3. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Lars Finsen
3.4. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Lars Finsen
3.5. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: David J. Peterson
3.6. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Michael Poxon
3.7. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Michael Poxon
3.8. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Lars Finsen
3.9. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: ROGER MILLS
3.10. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Ollock Ackeop
3.11. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Ollock Ackeop
3.12. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Lars Mathiesen
3.13. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Lars Mathiesen
3.14. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Eric Christopherson
4. Going no-mail for a week or so
From: ROGER MILLS
5. Re: Hebrew waw consecutive
From: David McCann
6a. Re: CV metathesis Q
From: Jeffrey Jones
7a. Re: Grammar checker
From: Arthaey Angosii
8.1. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: Herman Miller
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:03 pm ((PDT))
Eldin Raigmore skrev:
> Many people often get "formal" and "honorific"
> confused with each other, and get "informal" and
> "familiar" confused with each other, at least at
> first; especially if their native languages
> don't make such a distinction.
>
> But they do differ.
I am aware of all this. The problem I have is a
very practical one: under one interpretation of
one of the many sketches of the Quenya pronominal
system which Tolkien left behind the pronouns make
the following distinctions, cutting across the
three numbers singular, plural and dual:
| Person
| 1. inclusive 'we and you'
| 1. exclusive 'we but not you'
| 2. familiar 'thou, you'
| 2. polite 'sir(s), ma'am'
| 2. reverent 'My Lord(s)/Lady(-ies)'
| (when talking to him/her/them)
| 3. animate 's/he'
| 3. reverent 'my lord(s)/lady(-ies)'
| (when talking about them)
| 3. inanimate 'it'
| 3. impersonal '(it)'
| reflexive '-self'
While it may not be wholly seriously-linguistically-
theoretically justify to subsume all the
distinctions in column two under a single heading
I think it might be justified to do so in a
description aimed at those who want to acquire a
command of the language and are not linguistically-
theoretically inclined. For such an audience it
seems to be a Good Thing to be able to present the
pronouns in a table like the one above, with
additional columns to the right containing the
actual forms in the three numbers, and not to
proliferate the number of named grammatical
categories. "Register" is the best I can come up
with. Another possibility might be "attitude",
even though not all of the distinctions in
question involve the speaker's attitude towards
the subject and/or addressee, but "register" seems
to be more value-neutral.
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
__ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
\ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
/ / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
/ /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
/_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
Messages in this topic (13)
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1b. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
Posted by: "ROGER MILLS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:40 pm ((PDT))
BP Jonsson wrote:
...The problem I have is a
>very practical one: under one interpretation of
>one of the many sketches of the Quenya pronominal
>system which Tolkien left behind the pronouns make
>the following distinctions, cutting across the
>three numbers singular, plural and dual:
>
>| Person
>| 1. inclusive 'we and you'
>| 1. exclusive 'we but not you'
>| 2. familiar 'thou, you'
>| 2. polite 'sir(s), ma'am'
>| 2. reverent 'My Lord(s)/Lady(-ies)'
>| (when talking to him/her/them)
>| 3. animate 's/he'
>| 3. reverent 'my lord(s)/lady(-ies)'
>| (when talking about them)
>| 3. inanimate 'it'
>| 3. impersonal '(it)'
>| reflexive '-self'
>
>While it may not be wholly seriously-linguistically-
>theoretically justify to subsume all the
>distinctions in column two under a single heading
>I think it might be justified to do so in a
>description aimed at those who want to acquire a
>command of the language and are not linguistically-
>theoretically inclined. For such an audience it
>seems to be a Good Thing to be able to present the
>pronouns in a table like the one above, with
>additional columns to the right containing the
>actual forms in the three numbers, and not to
>proliferate the number of named grammatical
>categories. "Register" is the best I can come up
>with.
I've been meaning to say: I think "style(s)" and/or "level(s)" have
sometimes been used.
BTW, except for dual number, all the distinctions you mention above exist in
Malay/Indonesian (and in Kash, though most of the high-level forms are
falling into disuse), and most certainly in Javanese, which in many cases
even has distinct vocabulary depending on familiar - respectful -
ultra-respectful. And I think some special vocab for use in the palaces of
the few remaining Sultans, and when referring to the pre-Islamic gods.
Messages in this topic (13)
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1c. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:24 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 3:40 PM, ROGER MILLS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> BTW, except for dual number, all the distinctions you mention above exist in
> Malay/Indonesian (and in Kash, though most of the high-level forms are
> falling into disuse), and most certainly in Javanese, which in many cases
> even has distinct vocabulary depending on familiar - respectful -
> ultra-respectful. And I think some special vocab for use in the palaces of
> the few remaining Sultans, and when referring to the pre-Islamic gods.
I think it's in _La Bona Lingvo_ that Claude Piron wrote that the only
think keeping Indonesian from being easier than Esperanto for the
average person for whom Esperanto's phonology is a problem is
its complex formal/informal pronoun system. He may have been
exaggerating for effect, though. It was in a context, I think, where
he was arguing against revival of the obsolete-almost-as-soon-as-
the-language-was-born intimate pronoun "ci". (He argues, IIRC,
that Zamenhof put the intimate pronoun in to satisfy certain speakers
of languages with formal/informal pronouns who would complain
if it were absent, but deliberately gave it an unpleasant sound
so no one would actually us it for very long.)
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang/fluency-survey.html
Conlang fluency survey -- there's still time to participate before
I analyze the results and write the article
Messages in this topic (13)
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1d. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
Posted by: "Dana Nutter" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:55 pm ((PDT))
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eldin
Raigmore
> Many people often get "formal" and "honorific" confused with
each other, and
> get "informal" and "familiar" confused with each other, at
least at first;
> especially if their native languages don't make such a
distinction.
>
> But they do differ.
I noticed recently on a thread we had on Auxlang where I was
pointing out some issues having to do with honorifics. The
others on the list were confusing honorics with the formal
forms.
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: "Register" a grammatical term
Posted by: "Dana Nutter" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:11 pm ((PDT))
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Henry
> I think it's in _La Bona Lingvo_ that Claude Piron wrote that
the only
> think keeping Indonesian from being easier than Esperanto for
the
> average person for whom Esperanto's phonology is a problem is
> its complex formal/informal pronoun system. He may have been
> exaggerating for effect, though. It was in a context, I
think, where
> he was arguing against revival of the
obsolete-almost-as-soon-as-
> the-language-was-born intimate pronoun "ci". (He argues,
IIRC,
> that Zamenhof put the intimate pronoun in to satisfy certain
speakers
> of languages with formal/informal pronouns who would complain
> if it were absent, but deliberately gave it an unpleasant
sound
> so no one would actually us it for very long.)
Most of my creations are auxlangs so Indonesian and other
Austronesian languages did grab my attention when I first
started looking at them. I actually have to agree about the
simplicity factor. Indonesian really only has a couple of
difficulties, one being the issue of formal and honorific forms,
and the other being the use of measure words.
Messages in this topic (13)
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________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:20 pm ((PDT))
I loved your typo third-word countries! I agree with the points you
raised
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: David McCann
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:08 PM
On Tue, 2008-08-19 at 23:58 -0400, Dana Nutter wrote:
> I have to admit though I'm guilty of using some of the older
> names for places. I still say Bombay and Saigon even though
> they were Mumbai and Ho Chi Minh City at the time I was there.
> It's really just a habit because those names were used for so
> long.
Don't feel guilty! If speakers of English and Hindi are allowed different
languages, why can't those languages have different placenames in them?
This seems a very Anglo-Saxon thing. I've got a German book on the shelves
nearby that consistently uses Libau, Dünaburg, Wenden, etc for Liepâja,
Daugavpils, and Cçsis (Latvia) and I'm sure it's authors didn't feel guilty.
And the passion for local names only seems to be applied to third-word
countries. People who'd never sully their tongues with Bombay are still
content with Athens and Copenhagen. Political correctness strikes again?
Messages in this topic (3)
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3.1. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "ROGER MILLS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:25 pm ((PDT))
Lars Finsen wrote:
>Den 21. aug. 2008 kl. 16.58 skreiv [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
>
>>"King of the Hill" is an animated sit-com about
>>Hank Hill and his wife Peggy and son Bobby. They
>>live in a very middle-class neighborhood in a
>>suburban town in Texas. So PH has been on the
>>show from the beginning. (Although it's animated,
>>there is none of the wild, unrealistic plots
>>such as those on the "Simpsons.")
>
>Thanks for the info, Phil. I do like wild, unrealistic plots, but I'll
>give it a peek anyway.
>
It's quite a fun show, even heart-warming at times :-)))
The Texas dialect is annoying enough to some of us Yankees, but there's one
character, a friend of Hank's named Boomhauer (as I hear it), who is all but
incomprehensible, yet apparently speaks an authentic Texas dialect. Just
wait till you hear him!!! :-)))
(The late Molly Ivins, a Texan, and liberal commentator, once remarked of
some Texas legislator, "My God, there are actually people who talk like
Boomhauer!!")
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.2. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:10 pm ((PDT))
Lars Mathiesen wrote:
> quoting me and:
>> Dana Nutter:
>>> I'd have no problem with "Athina" or "Kuppenhaun".
>>
>> What about "København"? For the proper CXS of this you must ask
>> the other Lars (Lars_1), but it may be something like /k9Bnh{un/
>> or even /k9wnh{un/ if the 9 rounds the following sound.
>
> /k_h2.bn_k.hVu?n_t/ or /k_h2:un.hVu?n/, depending. Danish /{/ goes to
> /V/ before labials. /?/ is a syllabic feature of intonation, not a
> consonant.
Thanksss. I'm glad I don't have to reply vocally, because I'd need to
gather my jaw up from the floor first.
But as I am sitting here rehearsing, I do realise I have heard
something similar to what I am producing. Perhaps CXS is good for
something...
LEF
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.3. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:20 pm ((PDT))
Den 21. aug. 2008 kl. 18.23 skreiv Mark J. Reed:
> Voiced [h] is IPA [ɦ], CXS [h\]. Still glottal POA, vs velar [G].
Weirder and weirder. This I'm not able to imitate at all. Guess I
have to search YouTube or something and find some Czechs producing
the name of their capital.
LEF
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.4. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:35 pm ((PDT))
Den 21. aug. 2008 kl. 18.23 skreiv Mark J. Reed:
> Voiced [h] is IPA [ɦ], CXS [h\]. Still glottal POA, vs velar [G].
Hm, after listening to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=zmIXW8SGTek&feature=related , I am beginning to wonder if the
voiced h is a myth. Any comments?
LEF
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.5. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "David J. Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm ((PDT))
Lars:
<<
Hm, after listening to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=zmIXW8SGTek&feature=related , I am beginning to wonder if the
voiced h is a myth. Any comments?
>>
What, the sound itself? I pronounce it all the time in the English
word "ahead".
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.6. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Michael Poxon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:51 pm ((PDT))
One piece of linguistic fun that has been doing the rounds over here during
the past week has been a fabulous recording
of former (disgraceful) England football manager Steve McLaren, who now
manages a Dutch side. He gave an interview in English,
but in a "Dutch" accent, even though before this, the nearest he came to
Holland was to eat a bit of Gouda. Not only did he persevere
with his awful accent (which he certainly has had no time to acquire in
reality) but larded the interview with expressions like "how you say?"
and so on. If the guy had a sense of humour, you'd think he was doing it for
a laugh.
Mike
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.7. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Michael Poxon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:51 pm ((PDT))
It seems that many anglophones don't see accents at all. There's a furniture
company with stores in Britain called Moeben (i.e., m, o-umlaut,b, e, n)
which is always pronounced as if there were no umlaut on the o! Aaargh!
nd yes, Tony Blair speaks vg French. Such a shame that his English was so
full of bullsh*t.
Mike
>
> Probably true; anglophones have a reputation for being poor learners of
> foreign languages. Yet I've heard some British politicians speak excellent
> French (and others who totally butcher it); one of our presidential After
> several generations, most foreign names have become Americanized (and the
> same will probably happen with Hispanic names). German "Mueller"s are now
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] or even [EMAIL PROTECTED]; most of the
> Dutch names in my area are
> still written a la Dutch, but -huis is usually [hajs] or even "house", and
> the little village of Graafschap (sp?) is often called "Grass Cup". So go
> figure :-))))))
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1620 - Release
> Date: 19/08/2008 06:04
>
>
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.8. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:10 pm ((PDT))
David J. Peterson wrote:
> quoting me:
> <<
> Hm, after listening to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?
> v=zmIXW8SGTek&feature=related , I am beginning to wonder if the
> voiced h is a myth. Any comments?
> >>
>
> What, the sound itself? I pronounce it all the time in the English
> word "ahead".
Hm, I think I could imitate that.
But I was thinking of the one in Praha. They seem to say either just /
praha/ or /pra/, but the latter could be another word. There is no
audible structure in the last part of it, not to me anyway. I'm
afraid I'm completely ignorant of Czech.
LEF
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.9. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "ROGER MILLS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:09 pm ((PDT))
David Peterson wrote:
><<
>Hm, after listening to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?
>v=zmIXW8SGTek&feature=related , I am beginning to wonder if the voiced h
>is a myth. Any comments?
> >>
>
>What, the sound itself? I pronounce it all the time in the English
>word "ahead".
>
Oh you californians :-)))) It's voiceless (for me) in words like that, but
try this:
Start with "aha"( voicelss h) then try to keep the glottis in the same shape
(no glottal stop permitted), eliminate the /h/, keep two distinct syllables
"a_a". That's what we were told in Phonetics class...............
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.10. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Ollock Ackeop" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:02 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:06:19 +0200, Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Den 21. aug. 2008 kl. 17.19 skreiv R A Brown:
>> Nor is it true that anglophones give pronunciation based _English_
>> rules. The most common pronunciation of Beijing that I hear on the
>> British media pronounces the medial _j_ as [Z] - and judging by one
>> email I read in this thread, this is not unknown on the other side
>> of the Pond. These people are giving the _j_ the *French*
>> pronunciation because "It's a _foreign_ word, in'it?"
>
>Yeah, right. That's the English pronunciation I've heard most often,
>too. I guess that's what we call hypercorrection in linguistics.
Possibly. However, I kind of wonder if certain English speakers don't
actually _perceive_ the sound (among other Chinese sounds) that way. If it
hasn't been tested before, I think a study should be done this way:
Take four groups of anglophone students with little to no exposure to
Mandarin. Each group would be taught unfamiliar Mandarin terms and tested
on them using one of four techniques:
1 pinyin only
2 pronunciation only
3 pinyin plus pronunciation with no training in pinyin
4 pinyin plus pronunciation along with some instruction on the pinyin
romanization system
Anybody do language acquisition research? Think this would be valuable?
>>> There is, by the way, one language that nativises even more
>>> weirdly than English: the Welsh.
>>
>> I suspect Mandarin will nativize even more weirdly.
>
>Of course...
Oh, definitely. Just some examples:
Simple phonetic transcriptions:
Coca Cola = ke3 kou3 ke3 le4
Ramada = hua2 mei3 da2 (question, are there actually anglophones who say
/ra'mejd@/ instead of /ra'mad@/?)
Virginia = fu1 jin1 ni1 ya4 _or_ wei4 ji1 ni1 ya4 (not sure on the tones)
Canada = jia1 na2 da4
Spain = xi4 ban2 ya2
Repurposed phonetic approximations:
(these are characters that seem to have started as part of a transliteration
and have now taken on an association with a particular country)
英 ying1 "England, Britain"
美 me3 "America" -- in two different senses*
法 fa3 "France"
德 de2 "Germany"
Add guo2 to any of those and you have the name of the country. Add wen2 or
yu3 and you get the local language (probably only yu3 or maybe hua4 for
"America", since we speak a dialect of English).
*I say this because it can mean "America" as in "the Americas" and "America"
as in "The United States". I got to wondering how Latinos learning Chinese
might feel since Spanish uses "América" for all of the Americas, such that
it's polite for people from the United States to identify themselves as
"norteamericano" or "estadounidense" ("gringo" if you want to be informal
and kinda funny) -- yet I have yet to see the full name "The United States
of America" used ANYWHERE in Chinese -- even in the opening ceremony to the
Olympics (granted, we don't use the full names of ALL the countries in
English either -- I've never seen "The United Mexican States" in a walk of
nations -- and the Chinese announcer at the Beijing opening ceremonies
announced China as simply "Zhongguo" rather than
"zhong1hua2ren2min2gong1he2guo2" -- despite the English and French
announcers used the whole name).
Anyway -- to the point. Eventually, I saw a world map in Chinese and, lo
and behold, the United States was marked as mei3guo2, while the continents
are bei3mei3zhou1 and nan2mei3zhou1 (_north "America" continent_ and _south
"America" continent_, respectively). There, problem solved (aside from the
possibility that maybe one over-sensitive South American might learn Chinese
and INSIST that it's politically incorrect, but I haven't heard of any cases
yet).
Wow, my footnote was two paragraphs. Damn.
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.11. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Ollock Ackeop" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:04 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 15:53:20 +0200, Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Den 20. aug. 2008 kl. 16.07 skreiv David McCann:
>
>> This seems a very Anglo-Saxon thing. I've got a German book on the
>> shelves nearby that consistently uses Libau, Dünaburg, Wenden, etc
>> for
>> Liepāja, Daugavpils, and Cēsis (Latvia) and I'm sure it's authors
>> didn't
>> feel guilty.
>
>Well, the Germans perhaps are even more notorious than the English
>for having their own names for everything. Many of the German names
>were borrowed into Scandinavian, too, but have since been replaced.
>We formerly used Prag for Praha, for example, and Neapel for Napoli.
ISTR once seeing a short German quote where China was "Mittelreich". Sadly,
after not finding it in a dictionary, I suspect it was only an artistic name
like "The Middle Kingdom".
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:42:20 +0100, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>This is all just silly. Please, francophones, continue calling my
>capital city 'Londres', and you, hispanophones, carry on with your
>'Londra'. Respect your languages and keep a sense a history!
I was actually taught that the Spanish was "Londres" (pronounced /lOnd4Es/).
You might get [lOndrE] or [lOndrEh] from certain speakers, though.
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:59:55 -0400, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>> I don't object when English speakers pronounce my
>> surname ['[EMAIL PROTECTED] or ['[EMAIL PROTECTED], but I always
>> pronounce it ['juns:on] myself, because that's who
>> I am.
>
>Sure, but if you lived in an English-speaking area, would you continue
>that practice? It's all about the degree of integration. As a
>foreign traveller I don't mind being [ma`r\k r\i:d] whatever the
>language, but if I were living in a Spanish-speaking country I'm
>pretty sure I'd start calling myself [ma4kos r:iD_}] eventually.
>
>--
>Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Spanish isn't the best example. Many Spanish speakers will keep most
English names intact. I figure I'd usually be [(d)ZOrdZ kOrli]* to them --
not a terribly difficult name for Latin American Spanish -- unless someone
decided to be cute and call me Jorgito (which I probably wouldn't mind in
the least). However, in Chinese, I am [EMAIL PROTECTED] ts\_hjau_35
ts\`r\`=_14]
(until I get a better nickname, of course), not only because of phonological
and orthographic requirements, but also because of a pre-existing tradition
of Chinese and Westerners choosing new names (or adapting their names) when
communicating in the other's language.
And, for the record, I do, in fact, usually pronounce Beijing as [bei_25
dz\i(@)N_55] in English (yes, with the tones) -- just out of my natural OCD
habit of using native pronunciations when they are fairly close to the
accepted English pronunciation (I don't do it for Mexico -- that's too much
distance -- but many of the food loanwords I'll do, like [xalapEJO] and
[kesaDiZa].)
Note -- this was supposed to be part of my last post. But it's probably
better divided.
*my real name = George Corley
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.12. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Lars Mathiesen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:50 pm ((PDT))
2008/8/21 Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>> What about "København"? For the proper CXS of this you must ask the other
>>> Lars (Lars_1), but it may be something like /k9Bnh{un/ or even /k9wnh{un/ if
>>> the 9 rounds the following sound.
>>
>> /k_h2.bn_k.hVu?n_t/ or /k_h2:un.hVu?n/, depending. Danish /{/ goes to
>> /V/ before labials. /?/ is a syllabic feature of intonation, not a
>> consonant.
>
> Thanksss. I'm glad I don't have to reply vocally, because I'd need to gather
> my jaw up from the floor first.
You're welcome. Remember to wash it before reattaching.
> But as I am sitting here rehearsing, I do realise I have heard something
> similar to what I am producing. Perhaps CXS is good for something...
If you insist on trying to pronounce my IPA, I'd better move the
target. I think /k_h2.bn_k.hVU?n_t/ and /#/ are more precise.
--
Lars
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.13. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Lars Mathiesen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:53 pm ((PDT))
2008/8/22 Lars Mathiesen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> If you insist on trying to pronounce my IPA, I'd better move the
> target. I think /k_h2.bn_k.hVU?n_t/ and /#/ are more precise.
Ack, editing mistake at the last second. /k_h2:8_kn_k.hVU?n_t/ for the
second one.
Messages in this topic (152)
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3.14. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:32 pm ((PDT))
On Aug 21, 2008, at 11:06 AM, Lars Finsen wrote:
> Den 21. aug. 2008 kl. 17.19 skreiv R A Brown:
>> Nor is it true that anglophones give pronunciation based _English_
>> rules. The most common pronunciation of Beijing that I hear on the
>> British media pronounces the medial _j_ as [Z] - and judging by
>> one email I read in this thread, this is not unknown on the other
>> side of the Pond. These people are giving the _j_ the *French*
>> pronunciation because "It's a _foreign_ word, in'it?"
>
> Yeah, right. That's the English pronunciation I've heard most
> often, too. I guess that's what we call hypercorrection in
> linguistics.
I found a post on Language Log saying that there is quite a bit of
medial consonant lenition in spoken Mandarin, but unfortunately it
doesn't mention at all whether the <j> is ever pronounced as a
fricative.
< http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=502 >
Messages in this topic (152)
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4. Going no-mail for a week or so
Posted by: "ROGER MILLS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:31 pm ((PDT))
Just a quick note to let y'all know...........
Messages in this topic (1)
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5. Re: Hebrew waw consecutive
Posted by: "David McCann" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:22 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, 2008-08-20 at 13:43 +0200, Veoler wrote:
> Is there some hard evidence for this? As far as I have heard there was no
> real foundation behind waw conversive, and I haven't ever seen any proof in
> any direction. So I'm 67% non-believer in waw conversive and 33% agnostic,
> until I see evidence. Do you have any references about the justification or
> reason to assume the theory?
>
> I have'nt got very far in learning Hebrew and thought I should wait with
> this question, but since it was brought up...
>
I'm no expert on Semitic languages: a quick check shows I read Gray's
Introduction in 1973 and Gelb on Akkadian in 1982!
I took the example from A. B. Davidson's Hebrew Grammar, but he offered
no comment. I've just looked at Robert Hetzron's article in Major
Languages of the World. He regards the perfective wa- form (which he
rightly, I think, calls a past tense) as original and the non-past form
as derived after wa- came to be seen as a "tense switcher". He suggests
an etymology hawaya "was". I seem to remember that Akkadian forms a past
in u-; but if that's so, Hetzron evidently thinks it unrelated. Of
course, we can't tell what the original vocalisation was; it would be
too good to be true if the prefix were the only tense marker.
Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: CV metathesis Q
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:47 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 17:27:35 -0400, ROGER MILLS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Jeffery Jones wrote:
> >
> >I've been playing with a sketch where most of the verbs have two basic
> >stems, CVCVC and CVCCV, to which a number of affixes are added.
>
> Quick reply-- this sounds like my latest, Prevli, and the (Indonesian)
> natlangs Leti and its relatives. Sorry, I haven't put anything about Prevli
> up on my website yet; it's still a-borning. There is some work on Leti on
> line-- a paper in the Rutgers Optimality Archive by Eliz. Hume comes to
> mind, but it follows Optimality Theory and is not quite comprehensible (to
> me)...
I always have trouble with such things myself, and right now everything's
incomprehensible (which is why I haven't replied). Maybe some time when I'm
not sick .... I did see that Hume has a small database on metathesis.
> Historically, in my opinion, the similar metathesis in Leti et al arises
> from (1) addition of an echo-vowel to preserve the final C (2) stress
> remains on the original penult, and the original ultima V is deleted by
> syncope; that produces forms like: MP *kulit, PLet *?ulit-i, Leti ulti
> ~ulit- (a noun, but it also affects verbs, all forms in fact.) I think
> that's pretty much what I modeled Prevli on, except Prevli can also
> metathesize initial CV-. (I just like metathesis :-)))))
>
> There's also Rotuman, where CVCV alternates with CVVC.
>
>
> >Mostly,
> >I've been working on filling in the specific morphology and on subsequent
> >development (sound changes etc.) but recently, I started wondering
> >exactly how the two stems came about in the first place. Any ideas?
> >
> >I should probably mention that the first stem can take (C)V(C) suffixes
> >while
> >the second can take C((C)V) suffixes and that some of the suffixes also
> >have
> >alternating forms (CVC vs. CCV and VC vs. CV).
> >
> >I've been googling and it seems most morphology theorists disapprove of
> >this sort of thing.
Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: Grammar checker
Posted by: "Arthaey Angosii" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:04 pm ((PDT))
Emaelivpeith Dana Nutter 'sa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Anyone who tries it, please report, I'm quite curious whether
>> it as useful for us.
>
> That's what I was about to ask. Has anyone tried it yet?
I looked at the manual's instructions on creating info for a new
language, but it's geared towards minority natlangs. I've sent the guy
an email asking about what I'd need to do to support a private
conlang. I'll let you all know what I find out from him.
--
AA
Messages in this topic (5)
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8.1. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:59 pm ((PDT))
Eugene Oh wrote:
> Are Tirelat and Minza related, actually? /T/ is a tough sound to replace
> indeed -- How do others do it, I wonder? Japanese does it by [s], Cockney by
> [f], and many languages (including French) by [t].
>
> Eugene
Tirelat and Minza are only related in the sense that Minza borrows from
everything. The core of Minza grammar and basic vocabulary is mainly
from Lindiga, but Tirelat is another source of Minza vocabulary.
Messages in this topic (152)
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