There are 20 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Things to finish before you die (was: Average life of a conlang)
From: Eldin Raigmore
1b. Re: Things to finish before you die (was: Average life of a conlang)
From: R A Brown
2a. Re: Average life of a conlang
From: R A Brown
2b. Re: Average life of a conlang
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2c. Re: Average life of a conlang
From: Logan Kearsley
2d. Re: Average life of a conlang
From: Michael Poxon
3a. Invented Languages receives its ISSN
From: Rick Harrison
3b. Re: Invented Languages receives its ISSN
From: Sai Emrys
3c. Re: Invented Languages receives its ISSN
From: Rick Harrison
3d. Re: Invented Languages receives its ISSN
From: David McCann
4a. Re: Tonal inflection?
From: John Vertical
5. Re: Phonetic transcription (was: Sibilants)
From: John Vertical
6a. Re: Phonology gaps (was: Language Sketch: Gogido)
From: John Vertical
6b. Re: Phonology gaps (was: Language Sketch: Gogido)
From: Alex Fink
6c. Re: Phonology gaps (was: Language Sketch: Gogido)
From: Michael Poxon
7a. Re: "Futurese" (American English in 3000CE)
From: John Vertical
7b. Re: "Futurese" (American English in 3000CE)
From: deinx'nxtxr
8.1. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: John Vertical
8.2. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
From: Alex Fink
9a. Re: CV metathesis Q
From: Jeffrey Jones
Messages
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1a. Things to finish before you die (was: Average life of a conlang)
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:26 am ((PDT))
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:07:10 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:44:56 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
>>Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>>>I sincerely hope that this sort of thing won't befoul you and your
>>>language. Novial is not the only case of that. Look at places like
>>>TolkLang or Elfling, and you see the same. Quibbles about
>>>reconstructions of unattested Quenya and Sindarin words all the time,
>>>with many scholars taking the position that such reconstructions are
>>>overall illegitimate.
>>Groan - I forgot that one. I cannot imagine that JRRT would've been at
>>all pleased.
>[snip]
>He would certainly been severely displeased by what is going on
>in those fora these days! I don't know whether his statement
>against real-world usage of his conlangs was meant against fan
>usage, or rather against the possible misunderstanding that any
>of his languages could be used as an IAL, but what happens in
>the TolkLang and Elfling lists is certainly not at all what he
>wanted to happen.
>>>Avoiding this alone is a good motivation to develop a conlang to a
>>>fair degree of completion before you pass away.
>[snip]
>>It is just possible that Briefscript/Piashi might be 'finished' if I failed to
>>develop it any more in that (a) some people have ever since Dutton's day
>>shown interest in the idea of an international briefscript, and
>>(b) I have received private emails expressing interest in my project.
>[snip]
>It would also be a pity if those 50 years of work on it failed to bear fruit
>...
>[snip]
The solution is obvious;
Neither Ray nor Joerg is allowed to pass away.
I advise you not to go, guys.
(Hope that helps!)
Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Things to finish before you die (was: Average life of a conlang)
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:38 pm ((PDT))
Eldin Raigmore wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:07:10 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier
[snip]
>> It would also be a pity if those 50 years of work on it failed to bear fruit
>> ...
>> [snip]
>
> The solution is obvious;
> Neither Ray nor Joerg is allowed to pass away.
> I advise you not to go, guys.
:-)
> (Hope that helps!)
Yep - it cheered me up no end - a real rejuvenation tonic!
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]
Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Average life of a conlang
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:25 am ((PDT))
Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:44:56 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>> Groan - I forgot that one. I cannot imagine that JRRT would've been at
>> all pleased. I remember seeing him interviewed on the TV many years ago
>> and saying how he would not want to meet with fellows and talk High
>> Elven all afternoon. It seems to me that he regarded his languages as
>> part of his literary creation and that they belonged there, and not *here*.
>
> He would certainly been severely displeased by what is going on
> in those fora these days! I don't know whether his statement
> against real-world usage of his conlangs was meant against fan
> usage, or rather against the possible misunderstanding that any
> of his languages could be used as an IAL,
Fan usage - I don't think it ever occurred to him or anyone else at the
time that they could used as an IAL. Indeed, they obviously could not
because they were not in a complete enough state.
From what I remember of the interview JRRT was not very keen on fan
groups. He said he did not see that point and asked what they would do.
It was in that context that he gave as an example that he would not want
to spend an afternoon chatting with other fellows in High Elven.
Also I suspect by that time (tho I don't recall the date) he was aware
of interests by New Agers and people of similar outlook which, as a
devout Catholic, he was not at all happy about.
> but what happens in
> the TolkLang and Elfling lists is certainly not at all what he
> wanted to happen.
I think there's no doubt bout that.
[snip]
>> Though I guess it depends to some extent on the language concerned. I
>> suspect most conlangs would simply be left to rest in peace, unless
>> there was something other about it that made people want to continue or
>> resurrect it. In the case of Sindarin & Quenya it was the whole appeal
>> of the LotR and Middle Earth.
>
> Yes. I once observed that if Tolkien had not written _The Lord
> of the Rings_ but _A Historical Grammar of the Eldarin Languages_
> (the book all the people in TolkLang and Elfling dream of), his
> languages would have been forgotten by now: they would be seen
> as a quirk of an eccentric Oxford linguist and nothing else.
> Only the vast popularity of _The Lord of the Rings_ caused
> thousands of people to take interest in the languages featured
> therein.
Also there's no doubt about that IMO. Similarly, _tlhIngan Hol_ would
not have caught on as it has if it had not been for Star Trek and the
Klingons. It's the conculture these languages were set in that accounts
for their real world use. It shows, of course, that the life of an
artlang can be affected by non-linguistic criteria; and this IMO makes
the exercise of finding an "average" conlang life span fairly meaningless.
> Most conlangs will probably fall into oblivion after the death
> of their authors. There are, however, a few classics of the
> genre which will likely be studied by future conlangers, such
> as Teonaht or Verdurian.
Yes - and Laadan also comes to mind,
>> It is just possible that Briefscript/
>> Piashi might be 'finished' if I failed to develop it any more in that
>> (a) some people have ever since Dutton's day shown interest in the idea
>> of an international briefscript, and (b) I have received private emails
>> expressing interest in my project.
>
> While I don't think any kind of briefscript (or any other kind
> of artificial language) will have a chance to attain world
> language status anytime in the foreseeable future (after all,
> even Esperanto is far away from that),
By _international_ I did not mean 'global'. I mean international in the
sense that, say, _tlhIngan Hol might be considered international in that
users of the language do not all come from the same nation and do not
all have the same L1 (I think). If people of different L1s want someday
to use Piashi as a medium of communication, then that's fine. But I have
no interest in promoting it or indeed any other conlang as a global IAL.
> it is as legitiamte an
> intellectual challenge as any other kind of conlanging, and
> I am indeed interested in seeing which way Piashi will develop
> in the future. It would also be a pity if those 50 years of
> work on it failed to bear fruit ...
It would, I guess. Also I myself am sort of interested in how it will
work itself out. The phonology did not turn out as I had for very many
years expected it to do. Already as I make draft workings on the grammar
and try out sentences, I feel the language taking on forms which I had
not envisaged. The darn thing has a life of its own and is simply not
allowing itself to die. "You conceived me," it says. "I've had far too
long a gestation - now get me born and find out what I _really_ look like!"
>> I have no similar fears about mu experimental loglang. If that's not
>> finished, people can do what they like with it. As for rival camps
>> flaming each other over it - extremely unlikely, I think ;)
>
> Same to my sister project of it, X-1, which doesn't seem to
> have garned much interest - much less, in any case, than
> Old Albic.
Strange that ;)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]
Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: Average life of a conlang
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:00 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:24:45 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
> Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> [...]
> > He would certainly been severely displeased by what is going on
> > in those fora these days! I don't know whether his statement
> > against real-world usage of his conlangs was meant against fan
> > usage, or rather against the possible misunderstanding that any
> > of his languages could be used as an IAL,
>
> Fan usage - I don't think it ever occurred to him or anyone else at the
> time that they could used as an IAL. Indeed, they obviously could not
> because they were not in a complete enough state.
Obviously.
> From what I remember of the interview JRRT was not very keen on fan
> groups. He said he did not see that point and asked what they would do.
> It was in that context that he gave as an example that he would not want
> to spend an afternoon chatting with other fellows in High Elven.
Yes. The whole thing, one must not forget, started as a deeply
*personal* endeavour; Tolkien did all that stuff *for himself*,
to the most part at least.
> Also I suspect by that time (tho I don't recall the date) he was aware
> of interests by New Agers and people of similar outlook which, as a
> devout Catholic, he was not at all happy about.
Amen.
> > Yes. I once observed that if Tolkien had not written _The Lord
> > of the Rings_ but _A Historical Grammar of the Eldarin Languages_
> > (the book all the people in TolkLang and Elfling dream of), his
> > languages would have been forgotten by now: they would be seen
> > as a quirk of an eccentric Oxford linguist and nothing else.
> > Only the vast popularity of _The Lord of the Rings_ caused
> > thousands of people to take interest in the languages featured
> > therein.
>
> Also there's no doubt about that IMO. Similarly, _tlhIngan Hol_ would
> not have caught on as it has if it had not been for Star Trek and the
> Klingons. It's the conculture these languages were set in that accounts
> for their real world use. It shows, of course, that the life of an
> artlang can be affected by non-linguistic criteria; and this IMO makes
> the exercise of finding an "average" conlang life span fairly meaningless.
Indeed. It is thus more or less the same as with natlangs, which
people learn because they (a) intend to visit a country where the
language is spoken (b) are going to engage into business with it
(c) are interested in the language community's culture (d) any
combination of the above. Few people learn a language because
they are curious about its grammar or anything like that. This,
ultimately, is the reason why artificial IALs failed: they are no
country's language.
> [...]
> > While I don't think any kind of briefscript (or any other kind
> > of artificial language) will have a chance to attain world
> > language status anytime in the foreseeable future (after all,
> > even Esperanto is far away from that),
>
> By _international_ I did not mean 'global'. I mean international in the
> sense that, say, _tlhIngan Hol might be considered international in that
> users of the language do not all come from the same nation and do not
> all have the same L1 (I think). If people of different L1s want someday
> to use Piashi as a medium of communication, then that's fine. But I have
> no interest in promoting it or indeed any other conlang as a global IAL.
Sure. I know all to well that you do not wish to be involved with
auxlang politics. Nor do I. I especially won't ever propose using
Old Albic, for instance, as an IAL. I wish, however, to develop the
language into a usable form and release the full documentation to
the public on the Web. And I wish to evolve daughter languages
from it.
> [...] It would also be a pity if those 50 years of
> > work on it failed to bear fruit ...
>
> It would, I guess. Also I myself am sort of interested in how it will
> work itself out. The phonology did not turn out as I had for very many
> years expected it to do. Already as I make draft workings on the grammar
> and try out sentences, I feel the language taking on forms which I had
> not envisaged. The darn thing has a life of its own and is simply not
> allowing itself to die. "You conceived me," it says. "I've had far too
> long a gestation - now get me born and find out what I _really_ look like!"
I know very well what you are talking about. It is similar with
me and Old Albic. Whenever I find out something about the language,
it feels more like *discovering* something that has always been there
than like *inventing* something that has never before been anywhere.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (14)
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2c. Re: Average life of a conlang
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:07 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
>> It would, I guess. Also I myself am sort of interested in how it will
>> work itself out. The phonology did not turn out as I had for very many
>> years expected it to do. Already as I make draft workings on the grammar
>> and try out sentences, I feel the language taking on forms which I had
>> not envisaged. The darn thing has a life of its own and is simply not
>> allowing itself to die. "You conceived me," it says. "I've had far too
>> long a gestation - now get me born and find out what I _really_ look like!"
>
> I know very well what you are talking about. It is similar with
> me and Old Albic. Whenever I find out something about the language,
> it feels more like *discovering* something that has always been there
> than like *inventing* something that has never before been anywhere.
I love it when that happens. Had it happen to me just yesterday, in
fact, when I discovered the difference between formal prose and poetic
forms of relative clauses in one of my langs.
-l.
Messages in this topic (14)
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2d. Re: Average life of a conlang
Posted by: "Michael Poxon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:47 pm ((PDT))
Quite so. That's why Omina is really an IAL skewed towards native Basque
speakers instead of IE langs. (tee hee!) :-)
Mike
Indeed. It is thus more or less the same as with natlangs, which
people learn because they (a) intend to visit a country where the
language is spoken (b) are going to engage into business with it
(c) are interested in the language community's culture (d) any
combination of the above. Few people learn a language because
they are curious about its grammar or anything like that. This,
ultimately, is the reason why artificial IALs failed: they are no
country's language.
Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Invented Languages receives its ISSN
Posted by: "Rick Harrison" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:18 pm ((PDT))
Mainly of interest to bibliographers and librarians... the Library of
Congress has issued an ISSN to Invented Languages magazine. It's ISSN 1945-1261
Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Invented Languages receives its ISSN
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:17 pm ((PDT))
Congratulations.
Will you be sending the LoC a subscription for archival use?
- Sai
Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Invented Languages receives its ISSN
Posted by: "Rick Harrison" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:55 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:17:09 -0700, Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Will you be sending the LoC a subscription for archival use?
I'd be willing, but I don't know if they'd want it. I guess I'll have to
poke around on their website and see if they are inclined to try to archive
everything.
Messages in this topic (4)
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3d. Re: Invented Languages receives its ISSN
Posted by: "David McCann" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:13 am ((PDT))
On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 22:55 -0400, Rick Harrison wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:17:09 -0700, Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Will you be sending the LoC a subscription for archival use?
>
> I'd be willing, but I don't know if they'd want it. I guess I'll have to
> poke around on their website and see if they are inclined to try to archive
> everything.
If it's published in the USA, aren't you legally obliged to deposit it?
All European national libraries (as far as I know) get all new
publications by legal deposit. In the UK, you have to provide *three*
copies for the British Library and the universities of Cambridge and
Oxford; you may also have to cough up to the national libraries of
Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, but only if the write and ask you to!
Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Tonal inflection?
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:13 pm ((PDT))
I tried constructing a "maximal" phoneme inventory a while ago, too. I had a
few thousand non-click consonants defined before abandoning the thought.
The 144 labial stops, for example, were constructed as
{bilabial stop, labiodental affricate} * {plain, prenasalized} * {plain,
palatalized} * {plain, labialized} * {voiced, prevoiced, unvoiced} * {plain,
aspirated, glottalized}. A maximally horrendous example phoneme might be
/mbf_>_j_w/.
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (12)
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5. Re: Phonetic transcription (was: Sibilants)
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:34 pm ((PDT))
>On Sun, 2008-08-17, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
>> I hereby propose U+01A3
>> LATIN SMALL LETTER OI = LATIN SMALL LETTER GHA
>> with CXS [q\] for the voiced uvular approximant.
>
>> I hearby propose [D\] as an abbreviation for [D_-
>> _o] in CXS. (Yes, I'm in a symbols-proposing mood
>> today! :-)
For the record, the Z-SAMPA has [y\ D_a\] for these (the latter is just an
"alveolar" diacritic). [q\ D\] are voiceless uvular lateral fricativ &
voiced palatal sibilant. I'd say your proposition on the latter makes more
sense, but I'm not convinced about the former either way.
( http://wiki.penguindeskjob.com/Z-SAMPA )
OI for IPA sounds agreeable. I don't feel like checking what canIPA uses,
but most likely something like "turned small delta with angled upper right
corner" and "reverse smallcaps R with curly serifs".
( http://venus.unive.it/canipa/ )
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Phonology gaps (was: Language Sketch: Gogido)
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:32 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:20:26 +0200, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>Quoting "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> In the case of Okaikiar, I'm not consistent. It has [t] and [d] in
>> allophonic variation, likewise [s] and [z], but there's no [g], only
>> [k]. I suspect this is massively unrealistic.
>
>There are languages, most famously perhaps varieties of Arabic, that have /t d
>k/ but no /g/ or [g]*. Given this, having a voiced allophone of /t/ but not of
>/k/ doesn't seem surprising in a language that doesn't distinguish phonemic
>voice.
Actually, I'd say it does. When there's a "gap" concerning /g/, it's usually
because the */g/ has gone somewhere. It's this way in Arabic (> /dZ/), and
also Finnish ( > /j/, /v/, null etc.) Or the gap could've been there for a
*long* time, but if Okaikiar [d] is simply an allophone of /t/, I'm fairly
sure that possibility can be ruled out.
It might be possible that *[g] > /k/ but I've never herd of any examples of
that kind of a thing. Phonation changes tend to be rather all-or-nothing;
German /v/ > /f/ without /z/ > /s/ is one counterexample I kno but that
might just as well be a chainshift with labials (ie. /v/ pushed by /w/ >
/v\/.) More clear-cut is Mongolian /p b t d/ > /ph p th t/ but no /k g/ >
/kh k/. Or, at least, no /g/ > /k/, I've no idea if /k/ > /x/ went thru an
aspirate or not. It's in any case in the wrong direction from what we want,
nor a merger...
....which reminds me, at which end should we expect aspirate gaps to fall? I
can't think of a single example with /f/ in place of expected /ph/, but a
handful with /kx/ or /x/ in place of expected /kh/, which seems a little
backwards at first glance. (Mongolian aside, this occurs at least in various
southern Bantu languages.) Okay, let's see, distinguishing aspirates
requires reaching a higher subglottalic pressure than in tenuis stops... and
perhaps, with a smaller (more posterior) oral cavity to pressurize, reaching
a certain pressure difference requires more finer-tuned pulmonic action. But
who's to say /kh/ and /ph/ need an equal amount of extra pressure? Or maybe
that's just it; a similar extra diaphragm gesture will produce much more
aspiration for /kh/ than /ph/, which is then prone to be interpreted as /kx/?
I dunno really, I'm just winging this. :)
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Phonology gaps (was: Language Sketch: Gogido)
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:56 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:32:19 -0400, John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>More clear-cut is Mongolian /p b t d/ > /ph p th t/ but no /k g/ >
>/kh k/. Or, at least, no /g/ > /k/, I've no idea if /k/ > /x/ went thru an
>aspirate or not. It's in any case in the wrong direction from what we want,
>nor a merger...
O.o
So that leaves Mongolian with a stop inventory of, what, /p_h t_h p t
g/? Precisely backward in both the voiceless and voiced series from
typological normalcy? I dunno about you, but that makes me wary of using
its aspirated series to speak to any general trends either...
Checking Wikipedia, it says in fact that contemporarily /k_h/ has been
reintroduced in loans, as well as that /p_h/ only occurs in loans. So did
your /p_h/ < /p/ go somewhere else?
Alex
Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Phonology gaps (was: Language Sketch: Gogido)
Posted by: "Michael Poxon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:20 pm ((PDT))
I don't know; on the contrary, I think a slightly skewed phonology gives a
lang a degree of naturalness. Omina for instance has a depleted labial
series, only /b/ and /m/, and while there is /t/ vs /d/ and /k/ vs /g/,
there is no /p/ to go with the /b/!
Mike
>>> In the case of Okaikiar, I'm not consistent. It has [t] and [d] in
>>> allophonic variation, likewise [s] and [z], but there's no [g], only
>>> [k]. I suspect this is massively unrealistic.
>>
Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: "Futurese" (American English in 3000CE)
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:17 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:05:42 -0400, Logan Kearsley wrote:
>On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Interesting:
>>
>> http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/futurese.html
>>
>
>Found that a few months ago. I like it. Ends up just close enough that
>you can still see the relation, and different enough that it's
>obviously become a new language. Possibly a useful teaching-tool for
>demonstrating linguistic evolution.
>I suppose I'm impressed largely because it's had a lot more work put
>into it than any of my occasional future-english sketches (which so
>far have never made it off one page on a clipboard).
I've dug it ever since discovering it about three years ago (JBR's was one
of the first conlang-related sites I came across).
The most developed of my own tries is about half as advanced
(soundchange-wise) as his; I have very little grammar development yet (well,
inflection continues to decay, eg. the s-plural) but I can't tell either if
he has anything systematic planned either, or is making up only as much as
needed for the example.
I could list the sound changes here, I suppose
==initial vowel changes==
yod-dropping, cot-caught merger
i: > eI / _#
& i: u: U > I@ Ij Yw Y
==initial consonant changes==
flapping
ns > nts / _#
tr dr > tSr dZr
tj dj > tS dZ
T D > t d (onset), f v (coda)
d > 0 / {l n}_
==aspiration development==
(t from T is non-aspirated)
P > Ph / _P, _C= (aspiration is found before a tautosyllabic consonant)
P > 0 / O_# (final stops lost before obstruents)
F > 0 / _P (fricativs lost before a stop, non-aspiration survives)
ts > th
anti-Grassman (2nd of two aspirates in a word deaspirated)
==labial/liquid chainshift==
v > b / _V
v > w / V_
w > v/f / C_
r > w / _V
5 > w
l > 4 / C_
==more vowel shifts==
I E V Vw Vj > e & @ u i
aU aI eI oI oU > Aw &j ji oj u
I@ Ij Y(w) > jA jej jo(w)
Or Ar 3r Er Ir > O A @ & j&
r= l= n= > A o A~
@{m n N}. > &~
==palatalization etc. glide stuff==
tSh tS dZ S Z > ts`h ts` dz` s` z`
thj tj dj sj zj nj > ts\h ts\ dz\ s\ z\ J
jth jt jd js jz jn ditto
j > 0 / _l_ _4_ _BLB_
s > s`/ w_
Aw > o
w > 0 / _RFX_
==various==
h > 0 / V_V
dz dz` dz\ > z z` z\ (except prenasal)
You may notice some features shared with his. Especially nasalization and
interaction of vowels with other things could use some further work here,
but I think the consonants are mostly done.
or, should I say
Äpäxoi ñizoäjiexan än enraiäkhxan o bo vef ada teng khiod yoj sän fyda vyk
iä, byt äi tenk dy khansynänth a muthri dän.
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
7b. Re: "Futurese" (American English in 3000CE)
Posted by: "deinx'nxtxr" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:14 pm ((PDT))
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Vertical
> >> http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/futurese.html
> >
> >Found that a few months ago. I like it. Ends up just close
> enough that
> >you can still see the relation, and different enough that it's
> >obviously become a new language. Possibly a useful teaching-tool
for
> >demonstrating linguistic evolution.
> >I suppose I'm impressed largely because it's had a lot more work
put
> >into it than any of my occasional future-english sketches (which
so
> >far have never made it off one page on a clipboard).
>
> I've dug it ever since discovering it about three years ago
> (JBR's was one > of the first conlang-related sites I came
across).
>
> The most developed of my own tries is about half as advanced
> (soundchange-wise) as his; I have very little grammar
> development yet (well,
> inflection continues to decay, eg. the s-plural) but I can't
> tell either if
> he has anything systematic planned either, or is making up
> only as much as
> needed for the example.
Mine is only about 500 years and is currently going under the name
Li?glis. Now that I have wikified my websites, I'm starting to
document it (UTF-8 req.)
http://conlang.dana.nutter.net/index.php/Li%C5%8Bgl%C4%B1s
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
8.1. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "John Vertical" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:31 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 14:04:27 -0400, Alex Fink wrote:
>On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 18:03:48 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>>In fact the pronunciation ['awa] for _agua_ is very widespread in
>>Spanish,
>
>But many Spanishes have [M\] for weak /g/ (where some others have [G]), and
>[M\w] > [w] is if anything even a more natural change. I don't have the
>impression there's anything especially disfavoured about [Gw], though I
>can't think of a good example offhand.
Hmm
there are several Athabaskan languages that distinguish /w G_w/
(presumably inherited from PA) but also several that don't. Does "several
demonstrated instances of stability" suffice, or do you want "in *most*
cases stable over long time-periods"?
>>I use the possible non-humanity of the Sohlosjan as an excuse for the
>>typologically odd vowel height harmony, although I know of at least
>>one human language which had vowel height harmony, namely Middle
>>Korean.
Try also Kusunda:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusunda_language#Phonology
John Vertical
Messages in this topic (176)
________________________________________________________________________
8.2. Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:39 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 21:30:58 -0400, John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 14:04:27 -0400, Alex Fink wrote:
>>But many Spanishes have [M\] for weak /g/ (where some others have [G]), and
>>[M\w] > [w] is if anything even a more natural change. I don't have the
>>impression there's anything especially disfavoured about [Gw], though I
>>can't think of a good example offhand.
>
>Hmm
there are several Athabaskan languages that distinguish /w G_w/
>(presumably inherited from PA) but also several that don't. Does "several
>demonstrated instances of stability" suffice, or do you want "in *most*
>cases stable over long time-periods"?
The former is really all I wanted.
Do you know more details about the Athabaskan developments? In particular,
were there many isolated losses of /G_w/, that weren't part of more general
changes either to the labialised velars or to the voiced fricatives?
Alex
Messages in this topic (176)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
9a. Re: CV metathesis Q
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:33 am ((PDT))
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:49:36 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Hallo!
>
>On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:08:36 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
>> Jörg Rhiemeier skrev:
>> > Hallo!
>> >
>> > This discussion reminds me of a well-known phenomenon in
>> > Proto-Indo-European: "Schwebeablaut". Some roots in PIE
>> > show an alternation between the type *CReC- and the type
>> > *CeRC-, e.g. *deiw- ~ *dyew- 'sky, god'.
>> >
>> > ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
>>
>> Called _samprasarana_ [EMAIL PROTECTED]@'sA:[EMAIL PROTECTED]@] 'drawing
>> asunder'
>> in Sanskrit, which perhaps is a more convenient word in
>> English (heck, you already borrowed _svarabhakti_,
>> and _sandhi_...)
To understand an Indoeuropeanist, all one needs is to be completely fluent in
German, Sanskrit, and ancient Greek. Otherwise one may wonder what drawing
asunder has to do with suspended off-sounds.
>It doesn't surprise me at all that the Sanskrit grammarians
>had a word for it. What regards the putative origins of
>schwebeablaut: it is zero grade on first vs. second syllable
>of an original bisyllabic form *CVRVC-, or so say the
>Indo-Europeanists, according to what I seem to remember
>reading somewhere.
>
>... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Thanks; this should be helpful, when I get back to that project. I've had to
set it aside until I feel more alert and work on an exolang (where I can try
anything without worrying about it).
Jeff
Messages in this topic (11)
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