There are 3 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. OT: neographies yahoo group
From: Jeffrey Jones
2a. Noun cases in Tirelat
From: Herman Miller
2b. Re: Noun cases in Tirelat
From: Jake B
Messages
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1. OT: neographies yahoo group
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:46 pm ((PDT))
The neographies yahoo group seems to have disappeared since Sep. 10. Did
the owner delete it for some reason?
Jeff
Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Noun cases in Tirelat
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:34 pm ((PDT))
I'm going over the Tirelat grammar to take a break from the vocabulary
work, and improve the documentation. The current topic is noun cases.
It's questionable whether I should call them cases at all, since they're
marked not on the noun but a particle attached to the start of the noun
phrase. Case and number are fused into a single word. E.g.
saj zarvi ċik
NOM.PL bare rock
(the) bare rocks
The adjective and the noun remain uninflected. There may be an argument
for considering nominative and accusative as the only two "real" cases,
since there is agreement on the verb for each of those, and pronouns
have separate nominative vs. accusative forms, but I'll continue using
"case" for the rest of these noun phrase particles.
As I've mentioned, nominative and accusative are two prominent cases.
Most intransitive verbs have a nominative subject, and most transitive
verbs have a subject in the nominative and an object in the accusative.
The nominative case tends to be used for agents and experiencers, and
the accusative case for patients (but also destinations and some other
usages).
The nominative case has three forms: su (animate singular), sy
(inanimate singular) and saj (plural). This is the only case so far that
distinguishes between animate and inanimate nouns, although it's
possible that other cases may make this distinction. The accusative case
marker is my (singular) or maj (plural).
Some verbs also have an indirect object, which will be in the dative
case (na/naj, used typically for a recipient or a beneficiary). The
locative case (vë/vaj) represents the location of an action.
Now for the more interesting ones. Some verbs, of which "veste" (to
dance) is typical, have an extra subject (kë/kaj). I call this the
"comitative" case, since the English translations of these verbs tend to
use "with" where Tirelat uses this case.
Another lesser used case (dy/daj) is one that I haven't had a name for,
but I'm thinking of "ablative". Typically, it's used for non-volitional
agents, or the agent of a passive verb, which according to Wikipedia are
possible uses of the ablative case in Latin, and I've also considered
using this case to represent the "source" of an action (one translation
of English "from" or "out of").
Then there are the two remaining cases, which unlike the preceding
cases, are not associated with particular "argument slots" of verbs. The
vocative case, used to direct a comment to a particular listener (or
listeners) has only a single form (ee), not distinguished by singular or
plural.
The last case (u/aj) is one that I've been calling "oblique", as it
typically is not associated with a verb; its most typical use is as the
object of a locative noun phrase.
vë lak u łivi žeġ
LOC.SG over OBL.SG lazy dog
over the lazy dog
However, the "Swallow Song" translation on the Tirelat web page
(original at http://archives.conlang.info/shi/jhoezan/bibiaghein.html)
has a couple of unusual usages of this case.
jë-kóta -z u zhemi nallu, u zhemi rága
3s-carry-IPF OBL beautiful hour OBL beautiful year
bringing hours of beauty, years of beauty
ty rílh -ë-njem sha mifsi -njem zhlara-ru -ka -j u tegla
and wheat- -bread nor legume-bread refuse-PAS-NEG-GA OBL swallow
And the swallow does not disdain wheat-bread or pulse-porridge, either.
zhúvi, zhúvi u shúru më-bala-ta -j na tegla
open open OBL door 3s-set -DEO-GA DAT swallow
Open, open the door for the swallow
I don't know if I should try to account for these cases. Maybe it would
be better to make a new translation from the original Czirehlat version
from 2001 (http://archives.conlang.info/kau/sueljei/jhorqaenghein.html),
or directly from the original Greek.
kóta -z me jémi nállu, me jémi rága
carry-IMPF(PART) OBJ beautiful hour OBJ beautiful year
te me ríhl -e-niém sza mífsi -niém se tégla jelára-kai
and OBJ wheat- -bread nor legume-bread SUBJ swallow refuse-NEG
júvi, júvi se szúru bála-tai na tégla
open open OBJ door set -DEON DAT swallow
(Either the "se" or the "OBJ" in the last line must be a mistake, but
I'm not sure whether "se" or "me" is correct in this case.)
Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Noun cases in Tirelat
Posted by: "Jake B" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:31 pm ((PDT))
I'd say case, personally.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I'm going over the Tirelat grammar to take a break from the vocabulary
> work, and improve the documentation. The current topic is noun cases.
> It's questionable whether I should call them cases at all, since they're
> marked not on the noun but a particle attached to the start of the noun
> phrase. Case and number are fused into a single word. E.g.
>
> saj zarvi ċik
> NOM.PL bare rock
> (the) bare rocks
>
> The adjective and the noun remain uninflected. There may be an argument
> for considering nominative and accusative as the only two "real" cases,
> since there is agreement on the verb for each of those, and pronouns
> have separate nominative vs. accusative forms, but I'll continue using
> "case" for the rest of these noun phrase particles.
>
> As I've mentioned, nominative and accusative are two prominent cases.
> Most intransitive verbs have a nominative subject, and most transitive
> verbs have a subject in the nominative and an object in the accusative.
> The nominative case tends to be used for agents and experiencers, and
> the accusative case for patients (but also destinations and some other
> usages).
>
> The nominative case has three forms: su (animate singular), sy
> (inanimate singular) and saj (plural). This is the only case so far that
> distinguishes between animate and inanimate nouns, although it's
> possible that other cases may make this distinction. The accusative case
> marker is my (singular) or maj (plural).
>
> Some verbs also have an indirect object, which will be in the dative
> case (na/naj, used typically for a recipient or a beneficiary). The
> locative case (vë/vaj) represents the location of an action.
>
> Now for the more interesting ones. Some verbs, of which "veste" (to
> dance) is typical, have an extra subject (kë/kaj). I call this the
> "comitative" case, since the English translations of these verbs tend to
> use "with" where Tirelat uses this case.
>
> Another lesser used case (dy/daj) is one that I haven't had a name for,
> but I'm thinking of "ablative". Typically, it's used for non-volitional
> agents, or the agent of a passive verb, which according to Wikipedia are
> possible uses of the ablative case in Latin, and I've also considered
> using this case to represent the "source" of an action (one translation
> of English "from" or "out of").
>
> Then there are the two remaining cases, which unlike the preceding
> cases, are not associated with particular "argument slots" of verbs. The
> vocative case, used to direct a comment to a particular listener (or
> listeners) has only a single form (ee), not distinguished by singular or
> plural.
>
> The last case (u/aj) is one that I've been calling "oblique", as it
> typically is not associated with a verb; its most typical use is as the
> object of a locative noun phrase.
>
> vë lak u łivi žeġ
> LOC.SG over OBL.SG lazy dog
> over the lazy dog
>
> However, the "Swallow Song" translation on the Tirelat web page
> (original at http://archives.conlang.info/shi/jhoezan/bibiaghein.html)
> has a couple of unusual usages of this case.
>
> jë-kóta -z u zhemi nallu, u zhemi rága
> 3s-carry-IPF OBL beautiful hour OBL beautiful year
> bringing hours of beauty, years of beauty
>
> ty rílh -ë-njem sha mifsi -njem zhlara-ru -ka -j u tegla
> and wheat- -bread nor legume-bread refuse-PAS-NEG-GA OBL swallow
> And the swallow does not disdain wheat-bread or pulse-porridge, either.
>
> zhúvi, zhúvi u shúru më-bala-ta -j na tegla
> open open OBL door 3s-set -DEO-GA DAT swallow
> Open, open the door for the swallow
>
> I don't know if I should try to account for these cases. Maybe it would
> be better to make a new translation from the original Czirehlat version
> from 2001 (http://archives.conlang.info/kau/sueljei/jhorqaenghein.html),
> or directly from the original Greek.
>
> kóta -z me jémi nállu, me jémi rága
> carry-IMPF(PART) OBJ beautiful hour OBJ beautiful year
>
> te me ríhl -e-niém sza mífsi -niém se tégla jelára-kai
> and OBJ wheat- -bread nor legume-bread SUBJ swallow refuse-NEG
>
> júvi, júvi se szúru bála-tai na tégla
> open open OBJ door set -DEON DAT swallow
>
> (Either the "se" or the "OBJ" in the last line must be a mistake, but
> I'm not sure whether "se" or "me" is correct in this case.)
Messages in this topic (2)
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