There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Is there a CONLANG term for this?
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
1b. Re: Is there a CONLANG term for this?
From: Peter Cyrus
1c. Re: Is there a CONLANG term for this?
From: A. da Mek
1d. Re: Is there a CONLANG term for this?
From: Gary Shannon
2a. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: R A Brown
2b. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: MorphemeAddict
2c. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: Logan Kearsley
2d. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: Adam Walker
2e. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: Gary Shannon
2f. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2g. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: R A Brown
2h. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: MorphemeAddict
2i. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: Peter Cyrus
2j. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: R A Brown
2k. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: Patrick Dunn
2l. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: MorphemeAddict
3.1. Re: Phaistive Fun (was: Grammatical gender)
From: Padraic Brown
4a. Natlang question
From: Koppa Dasao
4b. Re: Natlang question
From: Dale McCreery
5a. Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
From: Gary Shannon
5b. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
From: MorphemeAddict
5c. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
From: Patrick Dunn
6a. Tech-like question
From: Puey McCleary
6b. Re: Tech-like question
From: David Peterson
6c. Re: Tech-like question
From: Gary Shannon
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Is there a CONLANG term for this?
Posted by: "Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:37 am ((PST))
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Charlie Brickner <
[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 02:02:57 -0200, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Anyway, there are also word which are not cognate, like the word form home
> >- PT lar and ES hogar,....
>
> Is it really helpful to consider the meaning "home" for 'hogar' in your
> analysis,
> when that is not its original meaning?
>
> The original meaning is (according to "Pequeño Larousse") "El sitio donde
> se
> enciende lumbre", with synonyms 'horno', 'fuego', et al. I would imagine
> that
> the connotation "home" derives from the denotation "hearth".
>
> The word only figuratively means 'casa'.
>
>
Yes Charlie, I know that "hogar" etymology shows that its original meaning
was "hearth" (V.L. FOCUS "fire" > FOCARIA "hearth"). And then other sound
changes took place (C lenition, tranforming it in a G and the muting of
the initial F, due to the basque substratum).
But what about PT lar?
And as I can see, this is one of the most complex words in all romance
languages to be analyzed. Almost all romance languages have a distinct word
from home, but with different etymologies (PT lar has one, ES hogar has
another and IT focolare has both... :-S)
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Is there a CONLANG term for this?
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:33 am ((PST))
Catalan llar comes from the Roman domestic godlets, the Lares, and I'm
sure the Portuguese does, too.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Charlie Brickner <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 02:02:57 -0200, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Anyway, there are also word which are not cognate, like the word form home
>> >- PT lar and ES hogar,....
>>
>> Is it really helpful to consider the meaning "home" for 'hogar' in your
>> analysis,
>> when that is not its original meaning?
>>
>> The original meaning is (according to "Pequeño Larousse") "El sitio donde
>> se
>> enciende lumbre", with synonyms 'horno', 'fuego', et al. I would imagine
>> that
>> the connotation "home" derives from the denotation "hearth".
>>
>> The word only figuratively means 'casa'.
>>
>>
> Yes Charlie, I know that "hogar" etymology shows that its original meaning
> was "hearth" (V.L. FOCUS "fire" > FOCARIA "hearth"). And then other sound
> changes took place (C lenition, tranforming it in a G and the muting of
> the initial F, due to the basque substratum).
>
> But what about PT lar?
>
> And as I can see, this is one of the most complex words in all romance
> languages to be analyzed. Almost all romance languages have a distinct word
> from home, but with different etymologies (PT lar has one, ES hogar has
> another and IT focolare has both... :-S)
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Is there a CONLANG term for this?
Posted by: "A. da Mek" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:10 am ((PST))
> By going all the way up the tree to the root you
> could eventually create a NEW proto-Indo-European. Not a
> reconstruction of the original ancient PIE, mind you, but a MODERN
> balanced blend of all modern IE languages.
What is the difference between such NEW proto-Indo-European
and the reconstructed PIE? If you want to create a languguage
from several IE languages, then in my opinionn PIE,
or rather some stage of Pre-PIE, is the best choice.
There is also a seriously meant auxlang (see http://dnghu.org/),
but although the idea is interesting, I do not like this auxlang
because a language without laryngeals is not PIE
but only one of younger IE languages.
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Is there a CONLANG term for this?
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:22 am ((PST))
The difference between such a blended NEW language and a reconstructed
PIE is that PIE is old, and incorporates none of the changes that make
modern languages modern. The whole point is not to look backwards in
time, but to project forward in time. It is like the difference
between trying to develop a new bread of faster race horse as opposed
to trying to reconstruct the primitive eohippus. Both are interesting,
but their goals are diametrically opposed. for example, inflection has
been steadily disappearing from descendants of PIE, so reconstructing
all that inflection is the exact opposite of projecting into a
possible future where all inflection has vanished.
Anyway, it was just a random thought, not a serious project on my part.
--gary
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:09 AM, A. da Mek <[email protected]> wrote:
>> By going all the way up the tree to the root you
>> could eventually create a NEW proto-Indo-European. Not a
>> reconstruction of the original ancient PIE, mind you, but a MODERN
>> balanced blend of all modern IE languages.
>
>
> What is the difference between such NEW proto-Indo-European
> and the reconstructed PIE? If you want to create a languguage
> from several IE languages, then in my opinionn PIE, or rather some stage of
> Pre-PIE, is the best choice.
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:50 am ((PST))
On 18/12/2011 20:04, Gary Shannon wrote:
> Here's a random idea for a writing system.
>
> There is an alphabet of 25 or 30 characters that share
> the same visual aspect ratio being roughly the same
> proportions as the Roman capitals.
>
> Then there is a second set of perhaps only 8 or 10
> characters that are visually distinct from the first
> group, perhaps by being very slender, or by having
> ascenders or descenders.
>
> The roots of the language are spelled with letters from
> the first set. But no word is complete until some suffix
> is attached to specify what aspect of the root that
> word
Similar in many respects to Brx, in which roots are written
in letters of the Roman alphabet, and morpheme boundaries
are shown by (at present) = or - or . or
punctuation/white-space. (The symbols = and - and . all have
phonetic value). I guess the biggest difference is my
inclusion of punctuation/white-space as an indicator of
morpheme boundary.
[snip]
> Now the really interesting aspect of this is that the
> assignment of the character sequences to the roots could
> be completely arbitrary, without regard to the spoken
> sound of the word. That being the case, the system of
> writing would be independent of any specific phonology. A
> string of characters could just as easily represent a
> single English word as a single Italian word,
Like Wilkin's "real Character" and other pasigraphies of the
18th centuries and more recent attempts such as Blissymbols.
On 19/12/2011 09:50, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 18 December 2011 21:04, Gary Shannon wrote:
>
>>
>> So the writing would be arbitrary, but not pictographic
>> or ideographic, and not connected in any way to the
>> phonology of any language. It should probably used with
>> a non-inflecting language since we wouldn't want to
>> waste lexical space on inflections. That would just
>> needlessly reduce the maximum potential lexicon size.
>> (Or perhaps a third class of alphabetic characters, or
>> even diacritics, used only to represent inflections.)
>>
>>
> This is not unlike the writing system for Azak, one of my
> first conlang (you can read about it here:
> http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr/Conlang/MesConlangs/Azak/ecriture.html,
>
>
> although I must warn you that it's in French. There are
> pictures of the writing system though :) ). Basically, in
> Azak stems are written using an angular alphabet, while
> suffixes are written with a syllabary (a weird one, most
> VC, with a few VCVC signs). There are no prefixes, and
> all words have at least one suffix, so segmenting is
> obvious and spaces are not necessary.
Segmenting unambiguous in Bax (Piashi) and no white-space
was needed. But i found that writing out whole strings
without white-space made reading difficult. In Bax this was
not helped all the characters being Roman letters, the
self-segregation being achieved rules governing use of
consonant and vowel symbols. I guess if other symbols are
being used for morpheme boundaries, white-space could be
dispensed with.
Thinks: Maybe I should try this out with Brx?
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:32 am ((PST))
Re: white space, I haven't been able so far to decide whether white space
is over-rated, or languages such as Thai (and Chinese), which don't
separate individual words by white space, simply do their users a
disservice.
I once saw a study that measured the amount of eye movement of Chinese
readers vs. readers of a European language, and the Chinese eye movements
jumped all over the text, apparently seeking word boundaries, while the
European speakers' were more linear and straightforward.
stevo
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 8:49 AM, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 18/12/2011 20:04, Gary Shannon wrote:
>
>> Here's a random idea for a writing system.
>>
>> There is an alphabet of 25 or 30 characters that share
>> the same visual aspect ratio being roughly the same
>> proportions as the Roman capitals.
>>
>> Then there is a second set of perhaps only 8 or 10
>> characters that are visually distinct from the first
>> group, perhaps by being very slender, or by having
>> ascenders or descenders.
>>
>> The roots of the language are spelled with letters from
>> the first set. But no word is complete until some suffix
>> is attached to specify what aspect of the root that
>> word
>>
>
> Similar in many respects to Brx, in which roots are written
> in letters of the Roman alphabet, and morpheme boundaries
> are shown by (at present) = or - or . or
> punctuation/white-space. (The symbols = and - and . all have
> phonetic value). I guess the biggest difference is my
> inclusion of punctuation/white-space as an indicator of
> morpheme boundary.
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Now the really interesting aspect of this is that the
>> assignment of the character sequences to the roots could
>> be completely arbitrary, without regard to the spoken
>> sound of the word. That being the case, the system of
>> writing would be independent of any specific phonology. A
>> string of characters could just as easily represent a
>> single English word as a single Italian word,
>>
>
> Like Wilkin's "real Character" and other pasigraphies of the
> 18th centuries and more recent attempts such as Blissymbols.
>
> On 19/12/2011 09:50, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
>
> On 18 December 2011 21:04, Gary Shannon wrote:
>>
>>
>>> So the writing would be arbitrary, but not pictographic
>>> or ideographic, and not connected in any way to the
>>> phonology of any language. It should probably used with
>>> a non-inflecting language since we wouldn't want to
>>> waste lexical space on inflections. That would just
>>> needlessly reduce the maximum potential lexicon size.
>>> (Or perhaps a third class of alphabetic characters, or
>>> even diacritics, used only to represent inflections.)
>>>
>>>
>>> This is not unlike the writing system for Azak, one of my
>> first conlang (you can read about it here:
>> http://rainbow.conlang.free.**fr/Conlang/MesConlangs/Azak/**ecriture.html<http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr/Conlang/MesConlangs/Azak/ecriture.html>
>> ,
>>
>>
>> although I must warn you that it's in French. There are
>> pictures of the writing system though :) ). Basically, in
>> Azak stems are written using an angular alphabet, while
>> suffixes are written with a syllabary (a weird one, most
>> VC, with a few VCVC signs). There are no prefixes, and
>> all words have at least one suffix, so segmenting is
>> obvious and spaces are not necessary.
>>
>
> Segmenting unambiguous in Bax (Piashi) and no white-space
> was needed. But i found that writing out whole strings
> without white-space made reading difficult. In Bax this was
> not helped all the characters being Roman letters, the
> self-segregation being achieved rules governing use of
> consonant and vowel symbols. I guess if other symbols are
> being used for morpheme boundaries, white-space could be
> dispensed with.
>
> Thinks: Maybe I should try this out with Brx?
>
> --
> Ray
> ==============================**====
> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> ==============================**====
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
>
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:46 am ((PST))
On 19 December 2011 10:31, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> Re: white space, I haven't been able so far to decide whether white space
> is over-rated, or languages such as Thai (and Chinese), which don't
> separate individual words by white space, simply do their users a
> disservice.
Some kind of explicit boundary indicator is a great service, I think,
but it doesn't necessarily have to be white space.
Spaces have almost entirely disappeared from my English handwriting,
but you can tell word boundaries by pen-lifts. Which I suppose is
"white space" in that there is a white paper showing instead of an ink
line, but hardly the usual sense of white space; there's no extra
distance between characters. That system would work with most cursive
scripts.
One can also use punctuation marks for end-of-word just like we
already use them for end-of-sentence. Might take longer to write than
an empty space, but could be read just as quickly.
-l.
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:05 am ((PST))
Doesn t Amharic use end of word punctuation that looks like a colon?
And special word final and word initial letter forms like in Hebrew
and Arabic is another possible strategy.
On 12/19/11, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 19 December 2011 10:31, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Re: white space, I haven't been able so far to decide whether white space
>> is over-rated, or languages such as Thai (and Chinese), which don't
>> separate individual words by white space, simply do their users a
>> disservice.
>
> Some kind of explicit boundary indicator is a great service, I think,
> but it doesn't necessarily have to be white space.
> Spaces have almost entirely disappeared from my English handwriting,
> but you can tell word boundaries by pen-lifts. Which I suppose is
> "white space" in that there is a white paper showing instead of an ink
> line, but hardly the usual sense of white space; there's no extra
> distance between characters. That system would work with most cursive
> scripts.
> One can also use punctuation marks for end-of-word just like we
> already use them for end-of-sentence. Might take longer to write than
> an empty space, but could be read just as quickly.
>
> -l.
>
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:14 am ((PST))
The horizontal connecting bar of Devanagari is another strategy. Just
a small gap in the bar is enough to indicate word boundaries.
--gary
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Doesn t Amharic use end of word punctuation that looks like a colon?
> And special word final and word initial letter forms like in Hebrew
> and Arabic is another possible strategy.
>
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2f. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:47 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Monday 19 December 2011 10:59:00 "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" wrote:
> On 18 December 2011 21:40, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hallo conlangers!
> >
> > On Sunday 18 December 2011 21:21:34 MorphemeAddict wrote:
> > > This is similar to how I process written Japanese. I start a new phrase
> > > every time I encounter a punctuation mark or a change from kana to
> > > kanji. There may be more such rules, but I can't think of them right
> > > now.
> >
> > Yes. In a Japanese text, you can easily tell what are word
> > roots and what are suffixes because the former are written in
> > kanji and the latter in hiragana, and the two scripts are visually
> > quite different, with hiragana being much simpler than most kanji
> > and full of curved strokes which do not occur often in kanji (at
> > least not in carefully written and in printed ones). Also, as
> > Japanese doesn't have prefixes, you can be sure about meeting a
> > word boundary wherever a kanji follows a hiragana.
>
> That's not completely true. Japanese has at least one prefix, the honorific
> o-/go-, which is most often written in hiragana. So this complicates things
> a bit.
Oh, I have overlooked that. It is quite a while ago since I
had lessons in Japanese, and I have forgotten quite much.
> > And thirdly,
> >
> > most words *do* have suffixes in texts (I can't think of any
> > situation where a bare stem occurs), so where a kanji follows
> > another kanji, the two kanji probably form a compound (such
> > compounds are very common in Japanese).
>
> In formal texts that may be mostly true (but not completely: numbers, for
> instance, are often put in front of the verb without a suffix), but as soon
> as you're looking at more informal texts it's not necessarily the case.
> Song texts for instance are full of instances of bare stems without
> suffixes, and informal speech often does away with particles.
> Also, you have words that just aren't written in kanji, so you can have
> hiragana following other hiragana but being part of a different word. And
> then you have katakana :) .
>
> Japanese orthography isn't as self-segmenting as people often think. As
> with everything natlangy, it's messy :P .
I see. So it is not as simple as I thought it would be.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2g. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:37 am ((PST))
On 19/12/2011 17:31, MorphemeAddict wrote:
[snip]
> I once saw a study that measured the amount of eye
> movement of Chinese readers vs. readers of a European
> language, and the Chinese eye movements jumped all over
> the text, apparently seeking word boundaries, while the
> European speakers' were more linear and straightforward.
Interesting. It seems also that when Chinese is written
horizontally from left to right, white spaces are used
between words.
======================================================
On 19/12/2011 17:46, Logan Kearsley wrote:
[snip]
>
> Some kind of explicit boundary indicator is a great
> service, I think,
Yes, I think so also.
> but it doesn't necessarily have to be white space.
> Spaces have almost entirely disappeared from my English
> handwriting, but you can tell word boundaries by
> pen-lifts. Which I suppose is "white space" in that
> there is a white paper showing instead of an ink line,
> but hardly the usual sense of white space; there's no
> extra distance between characters.
Yes, but to me that is still white space, even tho the space
is shorter than it would be in a script where each character
is discrete.
> That system would work with most cursive scripts.
Exactly. With a cursive script the white space can be of the
same as individual characters - indeed it might be shorter :)
> One can also use punctuation marks for end-of-word just
> like we already use them for end-of-sentence.
Tho we do normally use white space even after punctuation marks.
> Might take longer to write than an empty space, but could
> be read just as quickly.
It would certainly take longer to write if every word were
terminated by some sort of punctuation mark; tho typing is
just the same :)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2h. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:05 pm ((PST))
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:37 PM, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 19/12/2011 17:31, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> [snip]
>
> I once saw a study that measured the amount of eye
>> movement of Chinese readers vs. readers of a European
>> language, and the Chinese eye movements jumped all over
>> the text, apparently seeking word boundaries, while the
>> European speakers' were more linear and straightforward.
>>
>
> Interesting. It seems also that when Chinese is written
> horizontally from left to right, white spaces are used
> between words.
>
No. Chinese is 'never' written with spaces separating words.
stevo
> ==============================**========================
>
> On 19/12/2011 17:46, Logan Kearsley wrote:
> [snip]
>
>
>> Some kind of explicit boundary indicator is a great
>> service, I think,
>>
>
> Yes, I think so also.
>
>
> but it doesn't necessarily have to be white space.
>> Spaces have almost entirely disappeared from my English
>> handwriting, but you can tell word boundaries by
>> pen-lifts. Which I suppose is "white space" in that
>> there is a white paper showing instead of an ink line,
>> but hardly the usual sense of white space; there's no
>> extra distance between characters.
>>
>
> Yes, but to me that is still white space, even tho the space
> is shorter than it would be in a script where each character
> is discrete.
>
>
> That system would work with most cursive scripts.
>>
>
> Exactly. With a cursive script the white space can be of the
> same as individual characters - indeed it might be shorter :)
>
>
> One can also use punctuation marks for end-of-word just
>> like we already use them for end-of-sentence.
>>
>
> Tho we do normally use white space even after punctuation marks.
>
> Might take longer to write than an empty space, but could
>> be read just as quickly.
>>
>
> It would certainly take longer to write if every word were
> terminated by some sort of punctuation mark; tho typing is
> just the same :)
>
>
> --
> Ray
> ==============================**====
> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> ==============================**====
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
>
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2i. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:17 pm ((PST))
It is in pinyin, using rules promulgated in 1988.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:05 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:37 PM, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 19/12/2011 17:31, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>> I once saw a study that measured the amount of eye
>>> movement of Chinese readers vs. readers of a European
>>> language, and the Chinese eye movements jumped all over
>>> the text, apparently seeking word boundaries, while the
>>> European speakers' were more linear and straightforward.
>>>
>>
>> Interesting. It seems also that when Chinese is written
>> horizontally from left to right, white spaces are used
>> between words.
>>
>
> No. Chinese is 'never' written with spaces separating words.
>
> stevo
>
>> ==============================**========================
>>
>> On 19/12/2011 17:46, Logan Kearsley wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>>
>>> Some kind of explicit boundary indicator is a great
>>> service, I think,
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I think so also.
>>
>>
>> but it doesn't necessarily have to be white space.
>>> Spaces have almost entirely disappeared from my English
>>> handwriting, but you can tell word boundaries by
>>> pen-lifts. Which I suppose is "white space" in that
>>> there is a white paper showing instead of an ink line,
>>> but hardly the usual sense of white space; there's no
>>> extra distance between characters.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but to me that is still white space, even tho the space
>> is shorter than it would be in a script where each character
>> is discrete.
>>
>>
>> That system would work with most cursive scripts.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly. With a cursive script the white space can be of the
>> same as individual characters - indeed it might be shorter :)
>>
>>
>> One can also use punctuation marks for end-of-word just
>>> like we already use them for end-of-sentence.
>>>
>>
>> Tho we do normally use white space even after punctuation marks.
>>
>> Might take longer to write than an empty space, but could
>>> be read just as quickly.
>>>
>>
>> It would certainly take longer to write if every word were
>> terminated by some sort of punctuation mark; tho typing is
>> just the same :)
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ray
>> ==============================**====
>> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
>> ==============================**====
>> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
>> There's none too old to learn.
>> [WELSH PROVERB]
>>
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2j. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:35 pm ((PST))
On 19/12/2011 20:17, Peter Cyrus wrote:
> It is in pinyin, using rules promulgated in 1988.
Yes, but Pinyin uses Roman letters. I assume Stevo is
referring to Chinese written and/or printed in Hanzi.
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:05 PM,
> MorphemeAddict wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:37 PM, R A
>> Brown wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>>>
>>> Interesting. It seems also that when Chinese is
>>> written horizontally from left to right, white spaces
>>> are used between words.
>>>
>>
>> No. Chinese is 'never' written with spaces separating
>> words.
OK - must be just in text books written for learners. It's
still interesting they consider this useful for learners
just as, e.g. the Russians consider marking stressed vowels
useful for learners but unnecessary for native speakers.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2k. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:46 pm ((PST))
Not knowing Chinese, I'm just noodling, but it seems like some characters,
like zi, r, and men, would often indicate word boundaries. But I'm not
sure how often those morphemes appear; might not be common enough to make
that a useful mark.
Ancient Egyptian had determiners, but used them sporadically at best. I
was actually thinking of a determiner-like system for a conlang that uses
vowel rhymes derivationally. So the writing system could indicate the
consonants, and the determiner would indicate the noun or verb class and
thus hint at the appropriate vowels. It'd also serve as a handy mark of
word boundaries.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 19/12/2011 20:17, Peter Cyrus wrote:
>
>> It is in pinyin, using rules promulgated in 1988.
>>
>
> Yes, but Pinyin uses Roman letters. I assume Stevo is referring to
> Chinese written and/or printed in Hanzi.
>
>
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:05 PM,
>> MorphemeAddict wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:37 PM, R A
>>> Brown wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>
>>
>>>> Interesting. It seems also that when Chinese is
>>>> written horizontally from left to right, white spaces
>>>> are used between words.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> No. Chinese is 'never' written with spaces separating
>>> words.
>>>
>>
> OK - must be just in text books written for learners. It's still
> interesting they consider this useful for learners just as, e.g. the
> Russians consider marking stressed vowels useful for learners but
> unnecessary for native speakers.
>
>
> --
> Ray
> ==============================**====
> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> ==============================**====
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
pre-order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>.
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2l. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:43 pm ((PST))
True. I didn't even think of transliteration systems, which ALL separate
the words.
stevo
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Peter Cyrus <[email protected]> wrote:
> It is in pinyin, using rules promulgated in 1988.
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:05 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:37 PM, R A Brown <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 19/12/2011 17:31, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> I once saw a study that measured the amount of eye
> >>> movement of Chinese readers vs. readers of a European
> >>> language, and the Chinese eye movements jumped all over
> >>> the text, apparently seeking word boundaries, while the
> >>> European speakers' were more linear and straightforward.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Interesting. It seems also that when Chinese is written
> >> horizontally from left to right, white spaces are used
> >> between words.
> >>
> >
> > No. Chinese is 'never' written with spaces separating words.
> >
> > stevo
> >
> >> ==============================**========================
> >>
> >> On 19/12/2011 17:46, Logan Kearsley wrote:
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >>
> >>> Some kind of explicit boundary indicator is a great
> >>> service, I think,
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yes, I think so also.
> >>
> >>
> >> but it doesn't necessarily have to be white space.
> >>> Spaces have almost entirely disappeared from my English
> >>> handwriting, but you can tell word boundaries by
> >>> pen-lifts. Which I suppose is "white space" in that
> >>> there is a white paper showing instead of an ink line,
> >>> but hardly the usual sense of white space; there's no
> >>> extra distance between characters.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yes, but to me that is still white space, even tho the space
> >> is shorter than it would be in a script where each character
> >> is discrete.
> >>
> >>
> >> That system would work with most cursive scripts.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Exactly. With a cursive script the white space can be of the
> >> same as individual characters - indeed it might be shorter :)
> >>
> >>
> >> One can also use punctuation marks for end-of-word just
> >>> like we already use them for end-of-sentence.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Tho we do normally use white space even after punctuation marks.
> >>
> >> Might take longer to write than an empty space, but could
> >>> be read just as quickly.
> >>>
> >>
> >> It would certainly take longer to write if every word were
> >> terminated by some sort of punctuation mark; tho typing is
> >> just the same :)
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ray
> >> ==============================**====
> >> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> >> ==============================**====
> >> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> >> There's none too old to learn.
> >> [WELSH PROVERB]
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3.1. Re: Phaistive Fun (was: Grammatical gender)
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:01 am ((PST))
--- On Wed, 12/14/11, Matthew Turnbull <[email protected]> wrote:
> This leads me to wonder, does anyone
> have crackpot theories in thier
> conworld, weather they are regarded as such there or not.
Sure. In the World, one I can think of off hand as an obvious bit of
crackpottery is Pomatomancy. This guy basically bullshat a whole
system of folk-psych fortune telling involving the reading of ladies'
coiffures and scalps. Naturally, his targets were the more well-to-do
ladies of the big Rumelian cities (i.e., wealthy, lots of time spent
gossipping in the parlour). The Rumeli are overfond of fortune telling
and astrology as is, and they just gobbled this pomatomancy right up.
He even concocted a whole (non-existent) guild and text books and a
long-winded history to go with it. He's got a pretty cush life made for
himself, spending his days massaging the scalps of the quality, spouting
a bit of nonsense like "Oo, oi say, the lay of your saggital ridges is
clearly indicative of a life of considerable hardship!" (Knowing full
well that Lady Scarpina's husband is a skin flint, cos she can never
afford Madame Severina's Patent Hair Treatment.) "Ah, but I see by the
wave in your distal tendrils that Change is Afoot!" Utter nonsense!,
but poor Lady Scarpina will happily shell out a dinar for the session.
Other bits of crackpottery in the World are perhaps better known:
astrology & medicine.
> I suspect Jorayn speakers would have some, but I've never put
> anythought into
> it. They probably belive some people can turn into animals.
The World is a magical place, so there are no imaginary thaumomorphs. They
are more real than Doctor Squibbman's No. 9 Powder Sinus Cleansers. Not
for the faint of heart!
> They do 100% belive plants know more than it seems
They do! And in the World, some of them will let you know it too!
> and shamans/spirituals will
> consult difficult decisions with ancient trees (who are
> old, and have
> seen much). Also they're a little xenophobic and are
> outright racist
> against whites, they belive all kinds of typical nonsense
> about them, can't be trusted, steal, lye, etc.
Can't abide people who lye. I mean really!
Padraic
Messages in this topic (114)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Natlang question
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:03 pm ((PST))
Does there exist a natlang where the words for north and south swapped meanings?
Koppa Dasao
___
Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Natlang question
Posted by: "Dale McCreery" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:21 pm ((PST))
I dont know an example, but can give a situation how it could have
happened. Say you have words for north and south winds (commonly a more
basic term than the directions themselves) - and the words for the
directions are built on them - except with the structure "where the X wind
goes" instead of "where the X wind comes from". People stop referring to
the winds, instead just say the directions, and then simplify the compound
constructions back to the root words they were built from, and the switch
is complete.
-muskwatch-
> Does there exist a natlang where the words for north and south swapped
> meanings?
>
> Koppa Dasao
> ___
> Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
>
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:41 pm ((PST))
I was just looking at an out-of-copyright Spanish textbook on Google
books,
http://books.google.com/books?id=dGhKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
and I thought it would be a good model for a conlang textbook. Then it
occurred to me, this particular textbook presents the grammar and
vocabulary in nice, small, bite-sized chunks, and then follows each
chunk with a set of exercises. One could actually start writing a
textbook for a conlang before even knowing what the conlang was going
to look like.
For example, lesson one gives the student one verb (to have;
conjugated for "I", and "you" only) and four nouns (paper, pencil,
pen, book) and the conjunction "and".
There then follows a dozen or so translation exercises from L2 to
English, and a like number of translations exercises from English to
L2. Thus endeth lesson one. So by coining only six words and two
conjugated forms you can write the first chapter of a textbook.
Lesson two explains how to form a question, and adds a couple more
nouns and two prepositions. Again, for the price of four newly coined
words and the structure of a simple question you can write chapter
two.
The idea then is to invent only whatever it takes to write the next
chapter of the textbook, following as closely as possible, the model
of the existing textbook. By following the model, by the time the
original text has you reading and writing complex sentences in the
original L2, you can be reading and writing equally complex sentences
in your brand new conlang. Somehow that makes the daunting task of
building a new conlang seem far less intimidating. (Which is just my
imagination, of course.)
--gary
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:42 pm ((PST))
It might be fun to have different people write the lessons, a relay. Each
person in the relay only knows the lessons before his own, and nobody knows
how it'll turn out until they decide to stop writing lessons. That could be
very long project!
stevo
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> I was just looking at an out-of-copyright Spanish textbook on Google
> books,
> http://books.google.com/books?id=dGhKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
> and I thought it would be a good model for a conlang textbook. Then it
> occurred to me, this particular textbook presents the grammar and
> vocabulary in nice, small, bite-sized chunks, and then follows each
> chunk with a set of exercises. One could actually start writing a
> textbook for a conlang before even knowing what the conlang was going
> to look like.
>
> For example, lesson one gives the student one verb (to have;
> conjugated for "I", and "you" only) and four nouns (paper, pencil,
> pen, book) and the conjunction "and".
>
> There then follows a dozen or so translation exercises from L2 to
> English, and a like number of translations exercises from English to
> L2. Thus endeth lesson one. So by coining only six words and two
> conjugated forms you can write the first chapter of a textbook.
>
> Lesson two explains how to form a question, and adds a couple more
> nouns and two prepositions. Again, for the price of four newly coined
> words and the structure of a simple question you can write chapter
> two.
>
> The idea then is to invent only whatever it takes to write the next
> chapter of the textbook, following as closely as possible, the model
> of the existing textbook. By following the model, by the time the
> original text has you reading and writing complex sentences in the
> original L2, you can be reading and writing equally complex sentences
> in your brand new conlang. Somehow that makes the daunting task of
> building a new conlang seem far less intimidating. (Which is just my
> imagination, of course.)
>
> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:53 pm ((PST))
If each person only knows the previous lesson, it'll lead to a lot of
inconsistencies. Of course, if everyone had access to each lesson as it
was posted, the people late in the relay wouldn't have much time for
anything but learning a new language. :)
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 5:42 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> It might be fun to have different people write the lessons, a relay. Each
> person in the relay only knows the lessons before his own, and nobody knows
> how it'll turn out until they decide to stop writing lessons. That could be
> very long project!
>
> stevo
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I was just looking at an out-of-copyright Spanish textbook on Google
> > books,
> >
> http://books.google.com/books?id=dGhKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
> > and I thought it would be a good model for a conlang textbook. Then it
> > occurred to me, this particular textbook presents the grammar and
> > vocabulary in nice, small, bite-sized chunks, and then follows each
> > chunk with a set of exercises. One could actually start writing a
> > textbook for a conlang before even knowing what the conlang was going
> > to look like.
> >
> > For example, lesson one gives the student one verb (to have;
> > conjugated for "I", and "you" only) and four nouns (paper, pencil,
> > pen, book) and the conjunction "and".
> >
> > There then follows a dozen or so translation exercises from L2 to
> > English, and a like number of translations exercises from English to
> > L2. Thus endeth lesson one. So by coining only six words and two
> > conjugated forms you can write the first chapter of a textbook.
> >
> > Lesson two explains how to form a question, and adds a couple more
> > nouns and two prepositions. Again, for the price of four newly coined
> > words and the structure of a simple question you can write chapter
> > two.
> >
> > The idea then is to invent only whatever it takes to write the next
> > chapter of the textbook, following as closely as possible, the model
> > of the existing textbook. By following the model, by the time the
> > original text has you reading and writing complex sentences in the
> > original L2, you can be reading and writing equally complex sentences
> > in your brand new conlang. Somehow that makes the daunting task of
> > building a new conlang seem far less intimidating. (Which is just my
> > imagination, of course.)
> >
> > --gary
> >
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
pre-order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>.
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. Tech-like question
Posted by: "Puey McCleary" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:37 pm ((PST))
Okay gang, I have a tech-like question.
What�s the easiest, or perhaps the best way to form a mailing list like
this one? Today I�ve been in contact with three conlangers who have
expressed interest in translating �Alice� in one or more of their
languages, and I think it would be efficient if we could all communicate
with each other. Also, it would be a bit of a self-help group, I suppose.
And I�m still looking for more conlangers!
I realize of course that translating a work is no substitute for our
creating original works in our own languages. However, Alice is a
treasure, and I hope that it may be a stepping stone for some of us who may
later write original works in our languages.
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: Tech-like question
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:48 pm ((PST))
Well, since you're an LCS member, I can set one up for you built off your
webspace. You'll need to configure it further then, but it should only take a
few minutes. We can continue this discussion offlist if you're interested.
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
On Dec 19, 2011, at 2◊37 PM, Puey McCleary wrote:
> Okay gang, I have a tech-like question.
>
> What’s the easiest, or perhaps the best way to form a mailing list like
> this one? Today I’ve been in contact with three conlangers who have
> expressed interest in translating “Alice” in one or more of their
> languages, and I think it would be efficient if we could all communicate
> with each other. Also, it would be a bit of a self-help group, I suppose.
>
> And I’m still looking for more conlangers!
>
> I realize of course that translating a work is no substitute for our
> creating original works in our own languages. However, Alice is a
> treasure, and I hope that it may be a stepping stone for some of us who may
> later write original works in our languages.
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
6c. Re: Tech-like question
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:55 pm ((PST))
The fastest way is to create a Yahoo group. It takes a couple minutes
at most, and you're in business.
--gary
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Puey McCleary <[email protected]> wrote:
> Okay gang, I have a tech-like question.
>
> What�s the easiest, or perhaps the best way to form a mailing list like
> this one? �Today I�ve been in contact with three conlangers who have
> expressed interest in translating �Alice� in one or more of their
> languages, and I think it would be efficient if we could all communicate
> with each other. �Also, it would be a bit of a self-help group, I suppose.
>
> And I�m still looking for more conlangers!
>
> I realize of course that translating a work is no substitute for our
> creating original works in our own languages. �However, Alice is a
> treasure, and I hope that it may be a stepping stone for some of us who may
> later write original works in our languages.
Messages in this topic (3)
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