There are 22 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
From: MorphemeAddict
1b. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
From: Ben Scerri
1c. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
From: Patrick Dunn
1d. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
From: Edgard Bikelis
1e. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
From: Padraic Brown
1f. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
From: Lee
1g. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
From: Padraic Brown
1h. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
From: Alex Fink
2a. Re: Natlang question
From: Larry Sulky
2b. Re: Natlang question
From: yuri
2c. Re: Natlang question
From: Padraic Brown
2d. Re: Natlang question
From: Roger Mills
2e. Re: Natlang question
From: Peter Cyrus
2f. Re: Natlang question
From: Charlie Brickner
3. Name That Glyph | Round Three « Pseudoglyphs
From: A. Mendes
4. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Three « Pseudoglyphs
From: Brian
5. Revised Celimine Phonology
From: Logan Kearsley
6a. Barsoomian Project
From: Donald Boozer
6b. Re: Barsoomian Project
From: Fredrik Ekman
7a. Re: Oh great joy!
From: Eric Christopherson
8a. Re: Is there a CONLANG term for this?
From: A. da Mek
9. Making a memorable English phrase for 80 bits of data
From: Sai
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:05 pm ((PST))
I meant that each person will know only the lessons (but all of them, not
just the immediately preceding one) before his own.
People later in the relay would have a more challenging time coming up with
new stuff, and maybe that could be the criterion for end of the relay.
stevo
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> If each person only knows the previous lesson, it'll lead to a lot of
> inconsistencies. Of course, if everyone had access to each lesson as it
> was posted, the people late in the relay wouldn't have much time for
> anything but learning a new language. :)
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 5:42 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > It might be fun to have different people write the lessons, a relay. Each
> > person in the relay only knows the lessons before his own, and nobody
> knows
> > how it'll turn out until they decide to stop writing lessons. That could
> be
> > very long project!
> >
> > stevo
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > I was just looking at an out-of-copyright Spanish textbook on Google
> > > books,
> > >
> >
> http://books.google.com/books?id=dGhKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
> > > and I thought it would be a good model for a conlang textbook. Then it
> > > occurred to me, this particular textbook presents the grammar and
> > > vocabulary in nice, small, bite-sized chunks, and then follows each
> > > chunk with a set of exercises. One could actually start writing a
> > > textbook for a conlang before even knowing what the conlang was going
> > > to look like.
> > >
> > > For example, lesson one gives the student one verb (to have;
> > > conjugated for "I", and "you" only) and four nouns (paper, pencil,
> > > pen, book) and the conjunction "and".
> > >
> > > There then follows a dozen or so translation exercises from L2 to
> > > English, and a like number of translations exercises from English to
> > > L2. Thus endeth lesson one. So by coining only six words and two
> > > conjugated forms you can write the first chapter of a textbook.
> > >
> > > Lesson two explains how to form a question, and adds a couple more
> > > nouns and two prepositions. Again, for the price of four newly coined
> > > words and the structure of a simple question you can write chapter
> > > two.
> > >
> > > The idea then is to invent only whatever it takes to write the next
> > > chapter of the textbook, following as closely as possible, the model
> > > of the existing textbook. By following the model, by the time the
> > > original text has you reading and writing complex sentences in the
> > > original L2, you can be reading and writing equally complex sentences
> > > in your brand new conlang. Somehow that makes the daunting task of
> > > building a new conlang seem far less intimidating. (Which is just my
> > > imagination, of course.)
> > >
> > > --gary
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> pre-order from Finishing Line
> Press<
> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>.
>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
Posted by: "Ben Scerri" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:42 pm ((PST))
That sounds like an AWESOME idea!
I have used lessons in the past to build my own language, and I was oddly
enough writting some just this morning for my girlfriend to learn (she
asked me to make them... I'm so happy!) but I have never tried this relay
idea. I think it would be very interesting.
Perhaps a few guildlines should be made first, such as the basic phonology
and such so that wild inconsistencies do not arise.
On 20 December 2011 11:05, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> I meant that each person will know only the lessons (but all of them, not
> just the immediately preceding one) before his own.
>
> People later in the relay would have a more challenging time coming up with
> new stuff, and maybe that could be the criterion for end of the relay.
>
> stevo
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > If each person only knows the previous lesson, it'll lead to a lot of
> > inconsistencies. Of course, if everyone had access to each lesson as it
> > was posted, the people late in the relay wouldn't have much time for
> > anything but learning a new language. :)
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 5:42 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > It might be fun to have different people write the lessons, a relay.
> Each
> > > person in the relay only knows the lessons before his own, and nobody
> > knows
> > > how it'll turn out until they decide to stop writing lessons. That
> could
> > be
> > > very long project!
> > >
> > > stevo
> > >
> > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I was just looking at an out-of-copyright Spanish textbook on Google
> > > > books,
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://books.google.com/books?id=dGhKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
> > > > and I thought it would be a good model for a conlang textbook. Then
> it
> > > > occurred to me, this particular textbook presents the grammar and
> > > > vocabulary in nice, small, bite-sized chunks, and then follows each
> > > > chunk with a set of exercises. One could actually start writing a
> > > > textbook for a conlang before even knowing what the conlang was going
> > > > to look like.
> > > >
> > > > For example, lesson one gives the student one verb (to have;
> > > > conjugated for "I", and "you" only) and four nouns (paper, pencil,
> > > > pen, book) and the conjunction "and".
> > > >
> > > > There then follows a dozen or so translation exercises from L2 to
> > > > English, and a like number of translations exercises from English to
> > > > L2. Thus endeth lesson one. So by coining only six words and two
> > > > conjugated forms you can write the first chapter of a textbook.
> > > >
> > > > Lesson two explains how to form a question, and adds a couple more
> > > > nouns and two prepositions. Again, for the price of four newly coined
> > > > words and the structure of a simple question you can write chapter
> > > > two.
> > > >
> > > > The idea then is to invent only whatever it takes to write the next
> > > > chapter of the textbook, following as closely as possible, the model
> > > > of the existing textbook. By following the model, by the time the
> > > > original text has you reading and writing complex sentences in the
> > > > original L2, you can be reading and writing equally complex sentences
> > > > in your brand new conlang. Somehow that makes the daunting task of
> > > > building a new conlang seem far less intimidating. (Which is just my
> > > > imagination, of course.)
> > > >
> > > > --gary
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> > pre-order from Finishing Line
> > Press<
> > http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>.
> >
>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:49 pm ((PST))
That does sound fun, but I'd have to participate early rather than late.
Otherwise, I'll have to give up either writing or my day job.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Ben Scerri <[email protected]> wrote:
> That sounds like an AWESOME idea!
>
> I have used lessons in the past to build my own language, and I was oddly
> enough writting some just this morning for my girlfriend to learn (she
> asked me to make them... I'm so happy!) but I have never tried this relay
> idea. I think it would be very interesting.
>
> Perhaps a few guildlines should be made first, such as the basic phonology
> and such so that wild inconsistencies do not arise.
>
> On 20 December 2011 11:05, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I meant that each person will know only the lessons (but all of them, not
> > just the immediately preceding one) before his own.
> >
> > People later in the relay would have a more challenging time coming up
> with
> > new stuff, and maybe that could be the criterion for end of the relay.
> >
> > stevo
> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > If each person only knows the previous lesson, it'll lead to a lot of
> > > inconsistencies. Of course, if everyone had access to each lesson as
> it
> > > was posted, the people late in the relay wouldn't have much time for
> > > anything but learning a new language. :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 5:42 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > It might be fun to have different people write the lessons, a relay.
> > Each
> > > > person in the relay only knows the lessons before his own, and nobody
> > > knows
> > > > how it'll turn out until they decide to stop writing lessons. That
> > could
> > > be
> > > > very long project!
> > > >
> > > > stevo
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I was just looking at an out-of-copyright Spanish textbook on
> Google
> > > > > books,
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://books.google.com/books?id=dGhKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
> > > > > and I thought it would be a good model for a conlang textbook. Then
> > it
> > > > > occurred to me, this particular textbook presents the grammar and
> > > > > vocabulary in nice, small, bite-sized chunks, and then follows each
> > > > > chunk with a set of exercises. One could actually start writing a
> > > > > textbook for a conlang before even knowing what the conlang was
> going
> > > > > to look like.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, lesson one gives the student one verb (to have;
> > > > > conjugated for "I", and "you" only) and four nouns (paper, pencil,
> > > > > pen, book) and the conjunction "and".
> > > > >
> > > > > There then follows a dozen or so translation exercises from L2 to
> > > > > English, and a like number of translations exercises from English
> to
> > > > > L2. Thus endeth lesson one. So by coining only six words and two
> > > > > conjugated forms you can write the first chapter of a textbook.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lesson two explains how to form a question, and adds a couple more
> > > > > nouns and two prepositions. Again, for the price of four newly
> coined
> > > > > words and the structure of a simple question you can write chapter
> > > > > two.
> > > > >
> > > > > The idea then is to invent only whatever it takes to write the next
> > > > > chapter of the textbook, following as closely as possible, the
> model
> > > > > of the existing textbook. By following the model, by the time the
> > > > > original text has you reading and writing complex sentences in the
> > > > > original L2, you can be reading and writing equally complex
> sentences
> > > > > in your brand new conlang. Somehow that makes the daunting task of
> > > > > building a new conlang seem far less intimidating. (Which is just
> my
> > > > > imagination, of course.)
> > > > >
> > > > > --gary
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available
> for
> > > pre-order from Finishing Line
> > > Press<
> > > http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm
> >.
> > >
> >
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
pre-order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>.
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
Posted by: "Edgard Bikelis" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:08 pm ((PST))
If someone is outside US trying to see the book like I was, here it is:
http://www.archive.org/details/firstspanishcour00hilluoft
<http://www.archive.org/details/firstspanishcour00hilluoft>Edgard
(back to the list, btw ; ) )
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:05 pm ((PST))
--- On Mon, 12/19/11, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> It might be fun to have different
> people write the lessons, a relay. Each
> person in the relay only knows the lessons before his own,
> and nobody knows
> how it'll turn out until they decide to stop writing
> lessons. That could be very long project!
Now *that* sounds like a fun project! Broic go leor!
Padraic
> stevo
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > I was just looking at an out-of-copyright Spanish
> textbook on Google
> > books,
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=dGhKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
> > and I thought it would be a good model for a conlang
> textbook. Then it
> > occurred to me, this particular textbook presents the
> grammar and
> > vocabulary in nice, small, bite-sized chunks, and then
> follows each
> > chunk with a set of exercises. One could actually
> start writing a
> > textbook for a conlang before even knowing what the
> conlang was going
> > to look like.
> >
> > For example, lesson one gives the student one verb (to
> have;
> > conjugated for "I", and "you" only) and four nouns
> (paper, pencil,
> > pen, book) and the conjunction "and".
> >
> > There then follows a dozen or so translation exercises
> from L2 to
> > English, and a like number of translations exercises
> from English to
> > L2. Thus endeth lesson one. So by coining only six
> words and two
> > conjugated forms you can write the first chapter of a
> textbook.
> >
> > Lesson two explains how to form a question, and adds a
> couple more
> > nouns and two prepositions. Again, for the price of
> four newly coined
> > words and the structure of a simple question you can
> write chapter
> > two.
> >
> > The idea then is to invent only whatever it takes to
> write the next
> > chapter of the textbook, following as closely as
> possible, the model
> > of the existing textbook. By following the model, by
> the time the
> > original text has you reading and writing complex
> sentences in the
> > original L2, you can be reading and writing equally
> complex sentences
> > in your brand new conlang. Somehow that makes the
> daunting task of
> > building a new conlang seem far less intimidating.
> (Which is just my
> > imagination, of course.)
> >
> > --gary
> >
>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
Posted by: "Lee" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:09 pm ((PST))
Cool... Last week I had much the same thought about using a similar format to
both create and teach a conlang.
I am debating doing a conlang equivalent of Norsk Nordmann og Norge (U of WI
Press). With the exception of the front matter, 99% of the textbook is
Norwegain (bokmål). Every L2 word you need to know, including those for
directions and section headings, are in the ordliste (glossary). Extending
further, the project could also replicate the workbook and practice audio
materials.
A Pimsleur-type course would be considerably easier, as there is much less
content involved. That might be a good first step, before continuing with a
textbook.
Lee
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:10 pm ((PST))
--- On Mon, 12/19/11, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> I meant that each person will know
> only the lessons (but all of them, not
> just the immediately preceding one) before his own.
>
> People later in the relay would have a more challenging
> time coming up with
> new stuff, and maybe that could be the criterion for end of
> the relay.
Perhaps for a model one could use an "Ixxlang in 20 Easy Lessons" that
covers basic stuff. I think such a relay would quickly bog down and
everyone would lose interest if we tried to copy a huge reference
grammar full of fiddly details that would hardly be encountered.
Padraic
> stevo
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > If each person only knows the previous lesson, it'll
> lead to a lot of
> > inconsistencies. Of course, if everyone had
> access to each lesson as it
> > was posted, the people late in the relay wouldn't have
> much time for
> > anything but learning a new language. :)
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 5:42 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > It might be fun to have different people write
> the lessons, a relay. Each
> > > person in the relay only knows the lessons before
> his own, and nobody
> > knows
> > > how it'll turn out until they decide to stop
> writing lessons. That could
> > be
> > > very long project!
> > >
> > > stevo
> > >
> > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Gary Shannon
> <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I was just looking at an out-of-copyright
> Spanish textbook on Google
> > > > books,
> > > >
> > >
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=dGhKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
> > > > and I thought it would be a good model for a
> conlang textbook. Then it
> > > > occurred to me, this particular textbook
> presents the grammar and
> > > > vocabulary in nice, small, bite-sized
> chunks, and then follows each
> > > > chunk with a set of exercises. One could
> actually start writing a
> > > > textbook for a conlang before even knowing
> what the conlang was going
> > > > to look like.
> > > >
> > > > For example, lesson one gives the student
> one verb (to have;
> > > > conjugated for "I", and "you" only) and four
> nouns (paper, pencil,
> > > > pen, book) and the conjunction "and".
> > > >
> > > > There then follows a dozen or so translation
> exercises from L2 to
> > > > English, and a like number of translations
> exercises from English to
> > > > L2. Thus endeth lesson one. So by coining
> only six words and two
> > > > conjugated forms you can write the first
> chapter of a textbook.
> > > >
> > > > Lesson two explains how to form a question,
> and adds a couple more
> > > > nouns and two prepositions. Again, for the
> price of four newly coined
> > > > words and the structure of a simple question
> you can write chapter
> > > > two.
> > > >
> > > > The idea then is to invent only whatever it
> takes to write the next
> > > > chapter of the textbook, following as
> closely as possible, the model
> > > > of the existing textbook. By following the
> model, by the time the
> > > > original text has you reading and writing
> complex sentences in the
> > > > original L2, you can be reading and writing
> equally complex sentences
> > > > in your brand new conlang. Somehow that
> makes the daunting task of
> > > > building a new conlang seem far less
> intimidating. (Which is just my
> > > > imagination, of course.)
> > > >
> > > > --gary
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn,
> is now available for
> > pre-order from Finishing Line
> > Press<
> > http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>.
> >
>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Yet another way to build a CONLANG from scratch
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:50 pm ((PST))
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:04:51 -0800, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>--- On Mon, 12/19/11, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> It might be fun to have different
>> people write the lessons, a relay. Each
>> person in the relay only knows the lessons before his own,
>> and nobody knows
>> how it'll turn out until they decide to stop writing
>> lessons. That could be very long project!
>
>Now *that* sounds like a fun project! Broic go leor!
It sounds like we should start one! Accordingly I made a page for it on Frath:
http://www.frathwiki.com/Conlang_Textbook_Relay
Put your name down there if you're interested.
As for figuring out the phonology, I think it would be simpler to just let
it settle out as we go. But I would be in favour of a gentlemen's agreement
that, from lesson four or five onwards, people should strongly rein in their
impulses to introduce new phonemes.
This game also puts me in mind of the Round Robin Conlang started by Pete
Bleackley:
http://www.frathwiki.com/Round_Robin_Conlang
so maybe that is some indication of how long we can expect this one to be
able to last.
Alex
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Natlang question
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:29 pm ((PST))
Has that sort of happened in English? When old salts talk about westerly
winds, are they referring to winds coming FROM the west? I've always been
confused about that.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Dale McCreery <[email protected]> wrote:
> I dont know an example, but can give a situation how it could have
> happened. Say you have words for north and south winds (commonly a more
> basic term than the directions themselves) - and the words for the
> directions are built on them - except with the structure "where the X wind
> goes" instead of "where the X wind comes from". People stop referring to
> the winds, instead just say the directions, and then simplify the compound
> constructions back to the root words they were built from, and the switch
> is complete.
>
> -muskwatch-
>
> > Does there exist a natlang where the words for north and south swapped
> > meanings?
> >
> > Koppa Dasao
> > ___
> > Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
> >
>
--
*Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I
can hear her breathing. -- Arundhati Roy*
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Natlang question
Posted by: "yuri" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:34 pm ((PST))
On 20 December 2011 13:29, Larry Sulky wrote:
> Has that sort of happened in English? When old salts talk about westerly
> winds, are they referring to winds coming FROM the west? I've always been
> confused about that.
Yes.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Natlang question
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:11 pm ((PST))
--- On Mon, 12/19/11, Larry Sulky <[email protected]> wrote:
> Has that sort of happened in English?
> When old salts talk about westerly
> winds, are they referring to winds coming FROM the west?
> I've always been confused about that.
Same with a Noreaster, which appears to be the direction the winds are
going TOWARDS.
And then there's the Santa Anna Wind, which doesn't really seem to have
a particular direction, but is quite a blow all the same.
Padraic
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Dale McCreery <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > I donât know an example, but can give a situation
> how it could have
> > happened. Say you have words for north and south
> winds (commonly a more
> > basic term than the directions themselves) - and the
> words for the
> > directions are built on them - except with the
> structure "where the X wind
> > goes" instead of "where the X wind comes from".
> People stop referring to
> > the winds, instead just say the directions, and then
> simplify the compound
> > constructions back to the root words they were built
> from, and the switch
> > is complete.
> >
> > -muskwatch-
> >
> > > Does there exist a natlang where the words for
> north and south swapped
> > > meanings?
> > >
> > > Koppa Dasao
> > > ___
> > > Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix
> that's cut out!
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> *Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On
> a quiet day I
> can hear her breathing. -- Arundhati Roy*
>
Messages in this topic (8)
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2d. Re: Natlang question
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:30 pm ((PST))
--- On Mon, 12/19/11, Larry Sulky <[email protected]> wrote:
> Has that sort of happened in English?
> When old salts talk about westerly
> winds, are they referring to winds coming FROM the west?
> I've always been confused about that.
I've always been confused by "onshore" vs. "offshore" winds.
There's an Austronesian word, reconstructed *habaRat or some such, that
referred to the West Monsoon in Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines. Its
reflexes now simply means 'west'. Out in Polynesia, where monsoon patterns
don't occur, it refers IIRC to a north wind that brings rain. (The resemblance
to Bharat(a) 'India" is almost certainly purely coincidental.)
Messages in this topic (8)
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2e. Re: Natlang question
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" [email protected]
Date: Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:54 am ((PST))
No, in a nor'easter, the winds are coming from the northeast.
Winds are always named for their source. Maybe even named winds -
Scirocco, Mistral, Föhn, Simoom, etc.
On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 5:10 AM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Mon, 12/19/11, Larry Sulky <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Has that sort of happened in English?
>> When old salts talk about westerly
>> winds, are they referring to winds coming FROM the west?
>> I've always been confused about that.
>
> Same with a Noreaster, which appears to be the direction the winds are
> going TOWARDS.
>
> And then there's the Santa Anna Wind, which doesn't really seem to have
> a particular direction, but is quite a blow all the same.
>
> Padraic
>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Dale McCreery <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I donât know an example, but can give a situation
>> how it could have
>> > happened. Say you have words for north and south
>> winds (commonly a more
>> > basic term than the directions themselves) - and the
>> words for the
>> > directions are built on them - except with the
>> structure "where the X wind
>> > goes" instead of "where the X wind comes from".
>> People stop referring to
>> > the winds, instead just say the directions, and then
>> simplify the compound
>> > constructions back to the root words they were built
>> from, and the switch
>> > is complete.
>> >
>> > -muskwatch-
>> >
>> > > Does there exist a natlang where the words for
>> north and south swapped
>> > > meanings?
>> > >
>> > > Koppa Dasao
>> > > ___
>> > > Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix
>> that's cut out!
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On
>> a quiet day I
>> can hear her breathing. -- Arundhati Roy*
>>
Messages in this topic (8)
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2f. Re: Natlang question
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:59 am ((PST))
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:30:07 -0800, Roger Mills <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I've always been confused by "onshore" vs. "offshore" winds.
"offshore" = away from the shore: "The storm moved offshore." "The boat is
anchored offshore."
"onshore" = toward or on the shore: "The onshore patrol found the abandoned
vessel."
Charlie
Messages in this topic (8)
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3. Name That Glyph | Round Three « Pseudoglyphs
Posted by: "A. Mendes" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:28 pm ((PST))
Happy Holidays All. Round 2 results are out. Round 3 begins.
Cheers to everyone who took part.
http://pseudoglyphs.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/name-that-glyph-round-three/
Messages in this topic (1)
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4. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Three « Pseudoglyphs
Posted by: "Brian" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:40 pm ((PST))
C1 - trade; business; occupation; talent
D3 - sunrise
G3 - money
E3 - sun; day; high-noon
H1 - power on/off; to turn someone on/off
I1 - sadness
I3 - moon; night
My fiancée said that A1 through A4 when put all together looks like a monkey
face with A1 and 4 being the ears and A2 and 3 making the face.
------Original Message------
From: A. Mendes
Sender: Conlang
To: Conlang
ReplyTo: Conlang
Subject: Name That Glyph | Round Three « Pseudoglyphs
Sent: Dec 19, 2011 19:28
Happy Holidays All. Round 2 results are out. Round 3 begins.
Cheers to everyone who took part.
http://pseudoglyphs.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/name-that-glyph-round-three/
Messages in this topic (1)
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5. Revised Celimine Phonology
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:43 pm ((PST))
I think I just finished revising the phonology of Celimine as part of
my comprehensive overhaul.
I've been putting other descriptions of the new-and-improved language on G+
(see https://plus.google.com/115460003152236478494/posts/R586Z8JC7LZ
and https://plus.google.com/115460003152236478494/posts/R4nqhJEsoTn so
far), but I wanna see what kind of comments people here might have on
the phonology first. Long, long ago it was originally inspired largely
by Gaelic, but while that certainly still shines through I hope it has
more of a life of it's own by now.
*Vowels*
Celimine has a total of 16 phonemic vowels in 8 normal/glottal pairs
and divided into paired series of 4 Slender and 4 Broad vowels:
Slender: Broad:
e - [E], [&] a - [Q]
é, ej - [e] o - [o]
i - [I] u - [U]
í, y - [i] ú, w - [u]
(note that three of the vowels come in two possible transliterations,
so as to allow the avoidance of diacritics; the name of the language
for itself should be spelled Celyminej, but I find that unpretty for
the English name for the language)
Glottal vowels are indicated by a following h, and are pronounced like
an English h concurrently with the normal vowel. Glottal vowels are
devoiced word-finally (like whispered vowels).
Harmony requires that vowels from differing series cannot occur
immediately surrounding a single consonant; this may result in
mutations that cause vowels to switch columns to match their
neighbors.
Sequences of vowels form falling diphthongs, with the except that
glottalized vowels cannot terminate a diphthong. In three-vowel
sequences, the resulting glides still behave as vowels for purposes of
harmony, and will not require mutation in the surrounding vowels.
*Consonants*
There are 21 phonemic consonants divided into Strong and Lenited series:
Strong consonants:
Broad Slender
b [b]
p [p]
d [d] [dZ]
t [t] [tS]
g [g]
c [c]
z [z] [Z]
s [s] [S]
l [5] [L]
r [r\] [r]
m [m]
n [n]
q [N]
Lenited consonants:
bh [v]
ph [f]
dh [D]
th [T]
gh [G]
ch [x]
mh [w]
nh [j]
Several of the strong consonants undergo allophonic variation in
response to surrounding vowels.
The consonants d, t, l, and r are considered slender only if they are
immediately followed by a slender vowel; elsewhere, they are broad.
The consonants z and s are considered slender if immediately followed
or preceded by a slender vowel; elsewhere, they are broad.
The consonants r & l are capable of forming syllabic nuclei when not
adjacent to a vowel, in which case they behave as broad vowels unless
required to take their slender forms to satisfy harmony. When the r
cannot syllabify, the sequence 'rl' reduces to l, and the sequences
'rgh' and 'rch' neutralize to [R\].
*Sandhi Rules*
Lenition is triggered when a lenitable consonant occurs
intervocalically at a morpheme boundary within a word.
When preceded by a stop, m will become mh and n will become l.
When homorganic voiced and unvoiced consonants are in hiatus, the
unvoiced consonant will become voiced.
Terminal vowels are dropped prior to words that begin in a vowel of
the same sequence, including terminal components of diphthongs.
However, clitics, prefixes, and compounded morphemes that end in a
glottalized vowel will contrbute their glottalization to the remaining
following vowel.
Many words may be spelled with disallowed initial clusters; the
initial consonants in these cases are not usually pronounced, but will
be pronounced when preceded by a vowel for any reason, similar to
French liason in reverse.
When harmony is violated across morpheme boundaries, some mutation
must occur to rectify it.
If there is an elided terminal vowel, it will be infixed before the
final consonant. BC(S)S -> BSC S
Otherwise, if possible according to other harmony constraints, the
preceding vowel will mutate to the correct series. CCBCS -> CCSCS
Otherwise, the preceding vowel will be duplicated with its
opposite-series counterpart. BCBCS -> BCBSCS
(where B and S indicate vowels of different series)
Many suffixes and clitics come in different broad and slender
varieties that are chosen so as to avoid harmonic mutations. Terminal
liquids and elided terminal slender vowels prefer slender suffixes,
but otherwise broad is the default.
Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Barsoomian Project
Posted by: "Donald Boozer" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:44 pm ((PST))
Since "John Carter" (of Mars) was announced as a film project, I've gone back
and begun to re-read the work of Edgar Rice Burroughs. Of course, my thoughts
turned conlinguistic. I've been working through some possible Barsoomian
vocabulary and syntax on my blog. For those unfamiliar with the "John Carter of
Mars" series, "Barsoom" is the native name of Mars. Here is a link to the first
installment:
http://library.conlang.org/blog/?p=583
Or simply go to the home screen of the blog to see the latest one:
http://library.conlang.org/blog
I'll freely admit I'm taking advantage of the "telepathic" component of
Barsoomian (as given in Burroughs' stories) to provide some of the structure.
The most complex "sentence" I've come up with yet is:
Barsoomian: Calot ha dar phai karsof jeddak.
Literal: Calot* larger guard daughter smallest jeddak**
Free translation: â[The] larger calot guards [the] jeddakâs youngest (i.e.,
smallest) daughter.â
*Martian dog
**Martian for "emperor"
The blog posts outline the rationalization for each of these elements, and I've
tried to stay as true to the source material as possible.
Enjoy!
Don Boozer
Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: Barsoomian Project
Posted by: "Fredrik Ekman" [email protected]
Date: Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:18 am ((PST))
Don,
I have been working with my own Barsoomian language project for years, and
I have published seven or eight essays on the subject in ERB-APA. I am
just now working on the final parts, which are about vocabulary and
syntax. So of course I will be very interested to read your posts and give
some feedback.
I am also looking forward with anticipation to the movie and Frommer's new
conlang. Will Frommer have paid any heed to the sources in the books?
(Probably not too much.)
Fredrik
Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: Oh great joy!
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:30 pm ((PST))
On Dec 15, 2011, at 1:41 PM, BPJ wrote:
> I just stuffed together the contents of two old
> cardboard folders with conlang/conculture papers
> because I urgently needed a file for something, and out
> fell a CD disk with conlang stuff, including a version
> of my old Sohlob vocabulary as an .xls file. Alas I can
> easily see that this version is a year or two older
> than the last version which I lost to file lock-in --
> it isn't even converted from the ASCII-based
> transcription to the Latin-1 based![^1] (I suspect this
> file was made as part of just that conversion) --, but
> this can at least be opened with software I still
> possess!
What format is the other stuff locked into?
On Dec 17, 2011, at 7:02 AM, BPJ wrote:
> I'll need to be able to parse the thing as exported to
> csv later in order to run the sound change applier
> (once I've updated Kijeb entries as needed). The sound
> changes have changed a good deal too in seven years! :-)
I've wondered for a while this question: Does anyone have terminology to
describe the changes a language goes through in "con"time, versus the changes
the language (in its various diachronic stages, if it's diachronic) goes
through in real time?
As an example, the first type of change would be the changes Kijeb's sound
change applier described; the second type of change would be the changes the
applier itself goes through in this timeline.
Messages in this topic (9)
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8a. Re: Is there a CONLANG term for this?
Posted by: "A. da Mek" [email protected]
Date: Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:14 am ((PST))
> The difference between such a blended NEW language and a reconstructed
> PIE is that PIE is old, and incorporates none of the changes that make
> modern languages modern.
But the changes are different,
so the only way to unification is to get rid of them.
How else is posible to reunite
Latin frater, English brother and German Bruder?
Either choose the sound changes of one branch, for example
Greek p t k b d g f tk kh
or Germanic f th h p t k b d g
or choose the classical PIE p t k b d g bh dh gh
or glottalic PIE p t k p. t. q b d g
I chose the glottalic PIE,
because its phonetic is very similar to Proto-Semitic
and so it is easy to borrow PSem roots.
(I am speaking here of phonetic,
whereas the development of semantic and syntax
can be retained and extrapolated backward in time).
> The whole point is not to look backwards in
> time, but to project forward in time. ...
> Both are interesting,
> but their goals are diametrically opposed. for example, inflection has
> been steadily disappearing from descendants of PIE, so reconstructing
> all that inflection is the exact opposite of projecting into a
> possible future where all inflection has vanished.
The evolution goes in a spiral, so if you don't like a flexive language
and prefer a isolating one, you may go also backward in time
and invent a fictional but possible predecessor of PIE,
let us say an isolating EOPIE (Extremely Old PIE) with adpositions
freely placed as prepositions or postpositions;
then a agglutinative SOPIO (Super Old PIE)
where the postpositions are fixed to end of nouns
and personal pronouns to the end of verbs;
and further through UOPIE (Ultra Old PIE),
VOPIE (Very Old PIE) and OPIE
to the classical PIE.
Messages in this topic (14)
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9. Making a memorable English phrase for 80 bits of data
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:12 am ((PST))
What would be the best way to create a phrase in English that
represents 80 bits of entropy (that of a Tor .onion url; vs 32 bits
for IPv4)?
For reference, the OED has ~250k words (~= 18 bits). So a worst-case
answer is e.g. "divide it into 5 16-bit numbers and just concatenate
the OED words at those numbers" or "divide it into 10 8-bit numbers
and make a 10 word phrase from 256 common words that the desired word
class for that slot".
However, I think we could do better than that. How?
Feel free to use tricks like having multiple phrase templates or the
like. Formal requirements are that:
a) it is a valid, if very absurdist, English phrase (eg "Barnaby
thoughtfully mangles simplistic yellow camels" is fine),
b) it uniquely represents 80 bits of uncontrolled data,
c) it is short enough to be easily memorized, and
d) it doesn't depend on any external service, i.e. it could be
implemented with a small amount of client-side code plus a canonical
static dictionary file
- Sai
P.S. For more technical background, see
also:http://blog.rabidgremlin.com/2010/11/28/4-little-words/
http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/ecllk/the_4_little_word_protocol_4lw_for_remembering/c173wme
https://github.com/hellais/Onion-url
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko's_triangle
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/petname-tool/
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/HiddenServiceNames
Messages in this topic (1)
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