There are 18 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: Lee
1.2. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: Gary Shannon
1.3. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: MorphemeAddict
1.4. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: Gary Shannon
1.5. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: Logan Kearsley
1.6. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: Gary Shannon
1.7. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: Peter Cyrus
1.8. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: Gary Shannon
1.9. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: MorphemeAddict
1.10. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: Lee
1.11. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: Lee
2a. Re: Holiday greetings
From: Cosman246
3a. Re: Barsoomian Project
From: Donald Boozer
3b. Re: Barsoomian Project
From: Fredrik Ekman
4a. Re: Oh great joy!
From: BPJ
4b. Re: Oh great joy!
From: Eric Christopherson
5a. Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: J. Snow
5b. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: Sam Stutter
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Lee" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:40 am ((PST))
> Textbooks for other languages are certainly worth looking into.
> There's a local thrift store that has a lot of old high school
> language textbooks for 99 cents. I may pay them a visit after
> Christmas. I imagine it might serve me to look at a couple ESL
> textbooks as well. I stumbled across the term "Pedagogical Grammar"
> that I need to do some Googling of tool.
You might find something along the lines of the Teach Yourself series to be
helpful.
There is an underlying story that unfolds throughout the book, taking the
protagonist through assorted everyday situations over the course of a year.
1. Greetings, introductions; simple statements, questions
2. Want you do for a living; count to 10; travel plans; days of week
3. Travel to country; Cheers!; eating and drinking (very few foods, drinks)
Etc.
Each chapter tends to follow a pattern much like this (this is from chapter 2):
1. Simple dialog and/or story text
2. List of new words used (usually dictionary form--if dictionary form differs
there is an explanation about that in an early chapter)
3. True/false quiz about story/dialog (3-4 simple questions)
4. More story/dialog
5. More new vocab
6. Useful expressions
7. True/false quiz about last story/dialog
8. Another story/dialog
9. Another vocab list
10. Another true/false quiz
11. This is how we say it (often repeats sentences/phrases from stories/dialogs
with equivalent L1)
12. Language patterns (all examples are simple(!), from stories/dialogs)
12a. Word order
12b. Noun gender, plural marking
12c. Adjectives with nouns
12d. A common irregular adj
13. Exercises (usually about 5-8 questions per section)
13a. Write nouns as different form
13b. Add an adjective to the nouns
13c. Change verbs from present tense form to other form (form presented this
chapter was helping verb + correct infinitive)
13d. Word order: statement or question (punctuation omitted)
13e. Write negative form of sentences
13f. Word search
14. Additional info for common saying(s) (this chapter: saying Cheers!)
15. Additional info for common items (this chapter: various foods)
16. Do you understand? story/dialog (having done the rest of the chapter,
should be fairly easy)
17. New vocab from DYU? story/dialog
At the moment I only have the one for Norwegian, so I'm not sure if they all
follow a similar layout. Have been considering snapping up the book+audio set
for Czech, though I may go for a lang a bit more easily found at work.
Lee
Messages in this topic (30)
________________________________________________________________________
1.2. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:15 am ((PST))
I have The Teach Yourself Spanish. It's been sitting on the shelf for
a while. I'll have to take a look. It kind of sounds like the old
Berlitz German book I had back in the 1960's.
The thing I'm worried about is that if I start using hotels,
restaurants, and train stations as the settings I'm making it too
culturally specific to 19th-21st century Western civilization. There
are a lot of conlangs that that wouldn't be appropriate for. Of course
I can make it all about hunting and skinning buffalo either.
I do think it would be wise to leave technology out of lesson plan,
though. Languages pretty much evolved before trains, planes and the
Internet, so the words for those things tend to be new coinages, and
are usually borrowed from each other. It seems like everybody has some
variation on "teléfono/telephon/telefonika".
The most important thing is that the coverage of sentence patterns
should be as complete as possible. For example, the lesson or lessons
on questions has to run through the whole list of "where?", "who?",
"when?", "why?", "what?", "which?", "how?", "how much?", "how many?",
"how few?", "how tall?", "how far?", "how soon?", "did you?", "will
we?", "can he?", "didn't you?", "shouldn't it?" etc., etc.
Either that or those questions have to be sprinkled in among other
lessons, but either way, complete coverage has to be guaranteed.
I do like the idea of some kind of coherent story running through the
textbook, though. It might help keep the whole thing more interesting.
I am going to finish the textbook I started, though. Just so I'll have
a starting point to refer back to, and because I don't want to leave
it half-done.
On the subject of the current project, it turns out that new material
is only presented through lesson 38. Lessons 39-50 are review, and
slightly more in depth coverage of the same material from the earlier
chapters.
--gary
On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 6:40 AM, Lee <[email protected]> wrote:
> You might find something along the lines of the Teach Yourself series to be
> helpful.
>
> There is an underlying story that unfolds throughout the book, taking the
> protagonist through assorted everyday situations over the course of a year.
>
> 1. Greetings, introductions; simple statements, questions
> 2. Want you do for a living; count to 10; travel plans; days of week
> 3. Travel to country; Cheers!; eating and drinking (very few foods, drinks)
> Etc.
>
> Each chapter tends to follow a pattern much like this (this is from chapter
> 2):
> 1. Simple dialog and/or story text
> 2. List of new words used (usually dictionary form--if dictionary form
> differs there is an explanation about that in an early chapter)
> 3. True/false quiz about story/dialog (3-4 simple questions)
> 4. More story/dialog
> 5. More new vocab
> 6. Useful expressions
> 7. True/false quiz about last story/dialog
> 8. Another story/dialog
> 9. Another vocab list
> 10. Another true/false quiz
> 11. This is how we say it (often repeats sentences/phrases from
> stories/dialogs with equivalent L1)
> 12. Language patterns (all examples are simple(!), from stories/dialogs)
> 12a. Word order
> 12b. Noun gender, plural marking
> 12c. Adjectives with nouns
> 12d. A common irregular adj
> 13. Exercises (usually about 5-8 questions per section)
> 13a. Write nouns as different form
> 13b. Add an adjective to the nouns
> 13c. Change verbs from present tense form to other form (form presented this
> chapter was helping verb + correct infinitive)
> 13d. Word order: statement or question (punctuation omitted)
> 13e. Write negative form of sentences
> 13f. Word search
> 14. Additional info for common saying(s) (this chapter: saying Cheers!)
> 15. Additional info for common items (this chapter: various foods)
> 16. Do you understand? story/dialog (having done the rest of the chapter,
> should be fairly easy)
> 17. New vocab from DYU? story/dialog
>
> At the moment I only have the one for Norwegian, so I'm not sure if they all
> follow a similar layout. Have been considering snapping up the book+audio set
> for Czech, though I may go for a lang a bit more easily found at work.
>
> Lee
Messages in this topic (30)
________________________________________________________________________
1.3. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:04 am ((PST))
I have a Chinese textbook (in storage, alas) that claims to give the 30
Chinese sentence patterns. Each chapter is built around a different
pattern. Very language specific, but a possible structure to use.
stevo
On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 12:14 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've summarized the lessons through lesson 40, but haven't created the
> HTML beyond lesson 15 yet. As I get deeper into the project the
> original textbook I'm using is becoming more and more specific to
> Spanish, and less suitable for a generic textbook. So here are my
> philosophical musing on how to create a generic language textbook:
>
> Trying to fit a fixed textbook framework to all languages seems
> impossible. The problem is that every language has a different
> grammar, and every grammar demands a different set of steps for
> teaching that grammar. But is that really true?
>
> There is one thing that all language have in common, and it is this
> thing that must form the basis of a common textbook framework. The
> thing that all languages have in common is not grammar, but the need
> to express various common thoughts and ideas. The grammar, and the
> lessons about that grammar, can only tell us _how_ to say what we want
> to say. But before we learn _how_ to say something, we must know what
> it is we want to say.
>
> For that reason, a generic language textbook framework should not be
> built around the concept of a grammar, but around a systematic
> collection of examples of the kinds of things that we want to say with
> that language, from the simplest "I have a blue crayon." to the most
> complex and nuanced utterances.
>
> Instead of listing out the grammatical principles that the textbook is
> to cover, the first job is to produce of list of the kind things that
> we want to say.
>
> We want to be able to talk about things that are happening right now.
>
> We want to be able to describe the objects around us, naming their
> colors and sizes, shapes and smells.
>
> We want to be able to compare one object to another, saying which is
> larger, which is older, and which we'd prefer to have for dinner.
>
> We want to be able to talk about things that happened yesterday, or
> last week, or a million years ago. This includes talking about events
> that started in the past, and have long since finished, as well as
> things that began in the past and are still going on today.
>
> We want to be able to talk about things that may happen in the future.
> Things we plan to do in the next 5 minutes, and things we think we
> might see in the years ahead.
>
> We want to talk about thinks we hope for, or hope against. Things that
> may or may not ever occur.
>
> We want to talk about fantasies that never were, and never will be
> real, but that we can enjoy just the same.
>
> We want to be able to talk about contingent things that will happen if
> something else happens first, or that which must happen before another
> thing can.
>
> We want to relate people and events to other people and events. We
> want to be able talk about the man who invented sliced bread, and the
> boy who broke our window last year. We want to be able to talk about
> my sister, and your brother, and his father's third cousin's
> curly-haired dog. We want to be able to talk about things we're not
> even sure about, like the man we think might have been the one who
> John said stole his truck last week.
>
> We want to be able to explain that this thing happened _because_ you
> did that, and it will keep happening _until_ you do this other thing.
>
> And yes, we can relate all those things to grammatical specifics, but
> in doing so we must relate them to English grammar, or German grammar,
> or Spanish grammar. But as soon as we do so we have left the realm of
> the generic and once again entered the realm of some specific
> language, which is exactly where we do _not_ want to be for the
> purpose of outlining a truly generic language textbook.
>
> What we need to serve as the outline for a generic language textbook
> is a comprehensive graduated list of exemplars, starting at the level
> of "I have a pencil." and growing step by step into sophisticated
> sentences that can be used as models to say whatever we want to say in
> that language.
>
> Then each grammar lesson will write itself. Each lesson will consist
> simply of whatever new thing you need to construct the next sentence
> in the list. If the next sentence in the list talks about something
> that will happen tomorrow, and you've never talked about tomorrow in
> any previous sentence, then the next grammar lesson must simply be how
> to talk about things that will happen tomorrow.
>
> If the next sentence qualifies a thing by some other action or
> association then the outline should not talk about "dependent clauses"
> or "subordinating conjunctions", but should simply show the kind of
> things we need to be able to say: "Here is the toy I found in the
> bushes."; "That's the city where I grew up."... Let the creator of the
> language talk about whatever grammar is needed to say those kinds of
> things. But the textbook outline should only show _what_ to say, not
> _how_ to say it.
>
> To round out the outline, a vocabulary list for each lesson would be
> nice too. The list should start with a few common everyday objects
> that can be substituted into the exemplars to create practice
> exercises.
>
> So the form of each lesson in the outline would look something like this:
>
> Lesson X:
> 1. List of new words: to deliver; bike; store; wet
> 2. The new things you want to be able to say
> a. The immediate future (e.g. using "going to" in English).
> 3. A list of exemplars in the form of practice exercises:
> a. I'm going to go to the store now.
> b. Are you going to come with me?
> c. I can't go with you because they're going to deliver my
> new chairs today.
> d. Then I'm going to ride my bike.
> e. That's not a good idea. It's going to rain.
> f. It's not going to rain until this evening.
> g. O.K., but you're going to get wet.
>
> Comments? Suggestions?
>
> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (30)
________________________________________________________________________
1.4. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:17 am ((PST))
That sounds very interesting.
Presumably each sentence pattern evolved to serve some specific
function, and those functions should be independent of language. Any
generic textbook would still have to be organized around what those
functions are rather than how those functions were performed in a
given language.
I have another hour until I have to leave for the big Christmas family
gathering, so I think I'll pull some sentences out of my digital
corpus and see if I can work out some way to categorize the function
of each sentence, independent of its English structure, or specific
meaning.
I'm sure this is something that grammarians have done before. Maybe I
can find some references to the subject. If I knew what to call it I
could Google it. :)
--gary
On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 11:03 AM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have a Chinese textbook (in storage, alas) that claims to give the 30
> Chinese sentence patterns. Each chapter is built around a different
> pattern. Very language specific, but a possible structure to use.
> stevo
Messages in this topic (30)
________________________________________________________________________
1.5. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:40 pm ((PST))
On 25 December 2011 12:17, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> I'm sure this is something that grammarians have done before. Maybe I
> can find some references to the subject. If I knew what to call it I
> could Google it. :)
It occurs to me that, though I am a programmer, I work in a lab that
does research on pedagogical materials for teaching foreign languages,
and I probably have access to precisely the sort of people who know
about this stuff.
Continue to keep us updated on what you come up with, and come January
I'll see what sort of usefullness I can get out of my boss/coworkers.
-l.
Messages in this topic (30)
________________________________________________________________________
1.6. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:04 pm ((PST))
I've just downloaded this book "Discourse and Function" (pdf 418
pages) that looks very interesting so far. There are a lot of examples
from many different languages, and the first thing I notice is that
having a chapter on "to have", or "to be" is way off base. Russian,
for example, expresses "I have a book." as "With me book", and many
languages do not use "to be".
On the intro page he says: "The logical structure of a sentence in
Discourse is quite different from its logical structure under
Function. Discourse is expressed through seven types of sentence,
called âdiscourse types.â Function is expressed through 37 types of
sentence called âfunctional typesâ, which categorise all the states
and processes which can occur in the world. Since the world must be
more complicated than any system which describes it, the figure of 37
is arbitrary."
...
"The structure of the book reflects the way that it was written. The
author first lays down the basics of his method of sentence
description and to define the terms used. This is the purpose of
Chapters 1. to 12. In Chapter 13. to 18., the book formally defines
and applies the proposed notation to Discourse, Function, and
components. Illustrations of sentence structure are taken principally
from 20 languages, of which 9 are not Indo-European. Chapter 19.
applies the system to worked examples to show the power of its
application. For each example, the discourse, functional, and
component structures are related and aligned."
About the author:
"Anthony Pick is a retired management consultant in the IT industry
with a lifelong interest in linguistics, and reads reference grammars
for amusement.
He is a member of the Philological Society of Great Britain and has
two first degrees, from Cambridge and Oxford Universities, but not in
linguistic subjects."
Not being a linguist, perhaps he brings a fresh perspective to the
problem. As a retired programmer myself, maybe he "speaks my
language." ⺠:-)
The entire book is available for PDF download at no cost.
--gary
On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 25 December 2011 12:17, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> [...]
>> I'm sure this is something that grammarians have done before. Maybe I
>> can find some references to the subject. If I knew what to call it I
>> could Google it. :)
>
> It occurs to me that, though I am a programmer, I work in a lab that
> does research on pedagogical materials for teaching foreign languages,
> and I probably have access to precisely the sort of people who know
> about this stuff.
> Continue to keep us updated on what you come up with, and come January
> I'll see what sort of usefullness I can get out of my boss/coworkers.
>
> -l.
Messages in this topic (30)
________________________________________________________________________
1.7. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:17 pm ((PST))
Great link, thanks.
I'm a big admirer of the work of M.A.K. Halliday on Functional
Grammar, and this looks similar.
Since this list is so good at unearthing odd items of linguistics, I
wonder if I can ring a bell in someone's memory with a description of
a work I saw long ago but can no longer find. It was a development of
English vocabulary from a small base using the principle of
intersection or addition of meanings, so that for example "thank"
might have been defined as "appreciate" + "recognize". As I recall,
it was a huge compendium, a life's work, but I can no longer remember
the author. Can any of you?
On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've just downloaded this book "Discourse and Function" (pdf 418
> pages) that looks very interesting so far. There are a lot of examples
> from many different languages, and the first thing I notice is that
> having a chapter on "to have", or "to be" is way off base. Russian,
> for example, expresses "I have a book." as "With me book", and many
> languages do not use "to be".
>
> On the intro page he says: "The logical structure of a sentence in
> Discourse is quite different from its logical structure under
> Function. Discourse is expressed through seven types of sentence,
> called âdiscourse types.â Function is expressed through 37 types of
> sentence called âfunctional typesâ, which categorise all the states
> and processes which can occur in the world. Since the world must be
> more complicated than any system which describes it, the figure of 37
> is arbitrary."
>
> ...
> "The structure of the book reflects the way that it was written. The
> author first lays down the basics of his method of sentence
> description and to define the terms used. This is the purpose of
> Chapters 1. to 12. In Chapter 13. to 18., the book formally defines
> and applies the proposed notation to Discourse, Function, and
> components. Illustrations of sentence structure are taken principally
> from 20 languages, of which 9 are not Indo-European. Chapter 19.
> applies the system to worked examples to show the power of its
> application. For each example, the discourse, functional, and
> component structures are related and aligned."
>
> About the author:
>
> "Anthony Pick is a retired management consultant in the IT industry
> with a lifelong interest in linguistics, and reads reference grammars
> for amusement.
> He is a member of the Philological Society of Great Britain and has
> two first degrees, from Cambridge and Oxford Universities, but not in
> linguistic subjects."
>
> Not being a linguist, perhaps he brings a fresh perspective to the
> problem. As a retired programmer myself, maybe he "speaks my
> language." ⺠:-)
>
> The entire book is available for PDF download at no cost.
>
> --gary
>
> On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> On 25 December 2011 12:17, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [...]
>>> I'm sure this is something that grammarians have done before. Maybe I
>>> can find some references to the subject. If I knew what to call it I
>>> could Google it. :)
>>
>> It occurs to me that, though I am a programmer, I work in a lab that
>> does research on pedagogical materials for teaching foreign languages,
>> and I probably have access to precisely the sort of people who know
>> about this stuff.
>> Continue to keep us updated on what you come up with, and come January
>> I'll see what sort of usefullness I can get out of my boss/coworkers.
>>
>> -l.
Messages in this topic (30)
________________________________________________________________________
1.8. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:27 pm ((PST))
I forgot the link: http://www.discourseandfunction.com/
On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've just downloaded this book "Discourse and Function" (pdf 418
> pages) that looks very interesting so far. There are a lot of examples
> from many different languages, and the first thing I notice is that
> having a chapter on "to have", or "to be" is way off base. Russian,
> for example, expresses "I have a book." as "With me book", and many
> languages do not use "to be".
Messages in this topic (30)
________________________________________________________________________
1.9. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:32 pm ((PST))
http://www.amazon.com/New-Chinese-300-Textbook-Beginning/dp/0887270018
It may be 300 sentences rather than 30.
stevo
On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> That sounds very interesting.
>
> Presumably each sentence pattern evolved to serve some specific
> function, and those functions should be independent of language. Any
> generic textbook would still have to be organized around what those
> functions are rather than how those functions were performed in a
> given language.
>
> I have another hour until I have to leave for the big Christmas family
> gathering, so I think I'll pull some sentences out of my digital
> corpus and see if I can work out some way to categorize the function
> of each sentence, independent of its English structure, or specific
> meaning.
>
> I'm sure this is something that grammarians have done before. Maybe I
> can find some references to the subject. If I knew what to call it I
> could Google it. :)
>
> --gary
>
> On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 11:03 AM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > I have a Chinese textbook (in storage, alas) that claims to give the 30
> > Chinese sentence patterns. Each chapter is built around a different
> > pattern. Very language specific, but a possible structure to use.
> > stevo
>
Messages in this topic (30)
________________________________________________________________________
1.10. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Lee" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:14 pm ((PST))
I've got a book for Turkish (not Teach Yourself). I think it's a textbook, but
can't remember off hand.
Of course the problem with the typical textbook is the subject matter tends to
revolve around describing events at educational settings. Though at some point,
characters in every language book have to find themselves out of school and off
the train, plane, or automobile. However, one other minor gotcha for some will
be much discussion of cultural particulars.
Anyway, if I can fund my Turkish book, maybe it will yield another possible
layout that could be adapted.
Lee
Messages in this topic (30)
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1.11. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Lee" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:16 pm ((PST))
Interesting read. Thanks for digging this up!
Lee
Messages in this topic (30)
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________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Holiday greetings
Posted by: "Cosman246" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:47 am ((PST))
Merry Grav-mass to all!
Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Barsoomian Project
Posted by: "Donald Boozer" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:35 pm ((PST))
I will definitely have to see if I can find your ERB-APA articles. If not, I
will be contacting you offlist. They sound ver intriguing. My postings are just
a toe-in-the-water compared to your extensive essays, and I definitely
appreciate your perspective.
On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Fredrik Ekman <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am going to comment on your blog posts one at a time, as time permits. I
> start with the first one, titled "Ay, Ra, Co... Counting in Barsoomian!"
> and available at http://library.conlang.org/blog/?p=583
>
> Your scheme of connecting the planet name Barsoom with the numeral bar is
> not novel. It has been suggested at least a couple of times in the past.
I knew this had to have been done before since it was so obvious a direction to
head. That's one reason why I'm still in favor of the bar = 8 paradigm. Also, a
technique that requires counting moons first is a nice "alien" way to count
bodies of the solar system.
> Unfortunately, it does not work very well, for at least two reasons.
>
> First, we do not know the meaning of -soom. It is only attested in planet
> names, so the "keep things simple" principle should caution us to perhaps
> not use it with the sun and the moons. Now, if that was the only problem I
> would be more than willing to let it go. After all, Burroughs' planet
> names were clearly formulated by someone(s) well aquainted with astronomy;
> who knew that Mars (Barsoom) and Earth (Jasoom) belong to the same class
> of objects. However, by extension, your logic postulates that the moon
> Phobos should be named Ovsoom, but Burroughs explicitly says Thuria. Of
> course every language is full of exceptions, but the Burroughs I know is
> not one to let hold of a good system that easily. If he had intended -soom
> to mean heavenly body, then you can be sure that all the moons, th sun,
> the meteors and asteroids would have been named accordingly.
My question would be: Are there *any* names for meteors, asteroids, or any
moons (other than Cluros and Thuria) in the Barsoom series to which we can
compare Barsoom, Jasoom, et al.? That's one of the problems (or pleasures,
depending on one's perspective) of conlanging with Burroughs' work: absence of
words can't be cited as "proof" by either side of a theory. :-) Here's my
perspective on Cluros and Thuria: The names Cluros and Thuria seem to be part
of what appears to be a mythological story as recounted in "The Chessmen of
Mars" (Thuria, the "mad queen of heaven"; her cold husband "Cluros"; and
Thuria's lover, the Sun). *Ovsoom would be a more "technically-correct" name
for the moon, while "Thuria" is the more common colloquial name. Burroughs
wouldn't have to let go of his -soom paradigm; just simply rationalize a more
poetic mythological name for the natural satellite.
> You never explained further about Jupiter. Jupiter is Sasoom, so what
> numeral is sa, after having counted all the moons?
My bad. I meant to do that on the second post and got sidetracked. My
conjecture that, based on the number of moons of Jupiter plus the fact that
there are thousands of asteroids, Barsoomians would have stopped numbering at
Barsoom. The asteroid belt seems a natural boundary. For that reason, I'm going
to conjecture that sa- isn't a number as much as a modifier of some sort. Now,
as to what kind of modifier, therein lies the question...
>
> In my world, the words Bar- and bar are just homonyms. Nothing more. And
> why not? Bar- could mean almost anything, such as "home", "red", "jolly
> nice", "slowly dying" or whatnot.
Agreed, that is definitely a *possibility*.
> The second reason why your scheme works poorly is the term il. As you
> suggest yourself, it becomes somewhat of an annoyance. But let us bring
> some more logic into the equation.
>
> Il-dur-en is the name of a hormad, just like Tor-dur-bar. We know that the
> latter is four million eight, so il-dur-en is something million something.
> Now, remember that all hormads are numbered according to the order in
> which they came out of their culture vats, and they are all confined to
> one small island. Fifty million of them? I think not. In fact, my
> hypothesis is that Tor-dur-bar is one of the younger of the lot, and if
> that is true (Burroughs says nothing specific on the subject) then il must
> mean either two or three. At any rate, we know that there have to be AT
> LEAST four million hormads. Since no higher numbers are confirmed,
> statistical chances are better that il is two or three; certainly not
> fifty.
Point well taken. I'll have to go back and read The Synthetic Men of Mars
closer.
> Moving further down your list, I see that you have fallen into Henning's
> "dar" trap. Henning, in his article, to which you link, assumes that since
> the military units utan and umak contain the numerals tan and mak (the
> former of which is attested in other contexts), then the military unit dar
> must also be a numeral. This does not work. One reason is that the
> military unit, by extension, should be *udar, which it is not. Another is
> that one dar is not exactly 1,000 men, since Burroughs, in one book (I
> forget which at the moment) writes about a dar with at least eleven utans.
In A Fighting Man of Mars, I found Hadron is padwar in the 91st umak, 5th Utan,
*11th Dar*. I'm looking for the 11-Utan Dar. Point well taken on the lack of u-
before Dar though. That bothers me as well.
> The logical assumption must be that since *teeay-tan appears to mean
> eleven hundred, *tee-tan means "ten hundred" or, in other words, one
> thousand. My hypothesis is that Barsoomian does not have a unique word for
> thousand.
You raise a good point about teeay-tan. Tee-tan does appear to be the logical
backformation for "ten-hundred".
Thanks again for the insights. It might be fun now to go back and tackle those
numbers again. I'll look forward to reading any further comments you are able
to make!
Don
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Barsoomian Project
Posted by: "Fredrik Ekman" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:24 am ((PST))
> My postings
> are just a toe-in-the-water compared to your extensive essays, and I
> definitely appreciate your perspective.
That is perhaps a trifle too strongly formulated. We both know that
Barsoomian is not well-developed enough to really qualify as a conlang,
and any conjecture that is properly researched is equally valid. Points
can always be debated, but in the end much comes down to personal beliefs
and preferences. As such, your views are as valid as mine.
> My question would be: Are there *any* names for meteors, asteroids, or any
> moons (other than Cluros and Thuria) in the Barsoom series to which we can
> compare Barsoom, Jasoom, et al.? That's one of the problems (or pleasures,
> depending on one's perspective) of conlanging with Burroughs' work:
> absence of words can't be cited as "proof" by either side of a theory. :-)
You are right, of course. I was merely using a figure of rhetoric. Still,
I think that my point about the moons' names is very valid. Had Burroughs
intended double names for them, I am absolutely positive that he would
have mentioned it.
> The names Cluros and Thuria
> seem to be part of what appears to be a mythological story as recounted in
> "The Chessmen of Mars" (Thuria, the "mad queen of heaven"; her cold
> husband "Cluros"; and Thuria's lover, the Sun).
Absolutely, there is such a story; one that Burroughs never tells in
detail. This in itself is no evidence for the double naming hypothesis.
> In A Fighting Man of Mars, I found Hadron is padwar in the 91st umak, 5th
> Utan, *11th Dar*.
My bad memory playing tricks. That was the one I was referring to. Either
way, the maths fail to compute. I also seem to remember that I researched
this particular question, and IIRC Burroughs never says that one dar is
exactly 1,000 men, he says "about 1,000" or words to that effect.
Fredrik
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: Oh great joy!
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:02 pm ((PST))
Sorry for laaate reply. I've been busy practically
around the clock all week, and had time to really look through
backmail only now.
On 2011-12-20 05:30, Eric Christopherson wrote:
> On Dec 15, 2011, at 1:41 PM, BPJ wrote:
>
>> I just stuffed together the contents of two old
>> cardboard folders with conlang/conculture papers
>> because I urgently needed a file for something, and out
>> fell a CD disk with conlang stuff, including a version
>> of my old Sohlob vocabulary as an .xls file. Alas I can
>> easily see that this version is a year or two older
>> than the last version which I lost to file lock-in --
>> it isn't even converted from the ASCII-based
>> transcription to the Latin-1 based![^1] (I suspect this
>> file was made as part of just that conversion) --, but
>> this can at least be opened with software I still
>> possess!
>
> What format is the other stuff locked into?
.fp7 i.e. FileMaker Pro 7 (for Windoze).
>
> On Dec 17, 2011, at 7:02 AM, BPJ wrote:
>
>> I'll need to be able to parse the thing as exported to
>> csv later in order to run the sound change applier
>> (once I've updated Kijeb entries as needed). The sound
>> changes have changed a good deal too in seven years! :-)
>
> I've wondered for a while this question: Does anyone
> have terminology to describe the changes a language
> goes through in "con"time, versus the changes the
> language (in its various diachronic stages, if it's
> diachronic) goes through in real time?
> As an example, the first type of change would be the
> changes Kijeb's sound change applier described; the
> second type of change would be the changes the
> applier itself goes through in this timeline.
As it happens I do! I call the con-time stages 'stages'
(in part because the con-time is the theatrical stage
where the con-history of the lang unfolds) and the
real-time stages 'revisions', because they are the
result of conscious decisions on the part of the
conlanger. See the bottom of p. 9 and most of p. 10 in:
<http://books.google.com/books?id=vSCKWYbL63oC&lpg=PP1&vq=revision&pg=PA9#v=twopage&q=revision&f=false>
(Much of what I theorized there about *Tolkien's*
revisioning doesn't seem to tally with evidence in
material published since then, so I guess what is valid
in that essay is the general theory of historical
conlanging in it.)
Similarly I'd talk of 'changes' in the con-history of
the lang and 'alterations' in the real-world writeup
for implementing those changes -- whether the 'writeup'
be a program, a piece of paper or only in mental
storage -- and of 'periods'[^note] in the con-history
but 'phases' in the real-history, including phases within
revisions.
[^note]: Although 'periods' overlaps dangerously with 'stages'
the difference is between a time period in con-time
viewed from 'within' ('endopoetically') and a more or
less discrete part, or 'chapter', of the con-history
viewed from 'without' ('exopoetically') as a piece of
fiction.
Maybe not everyone feels a need for so finegrained a
terminology, but I feel it helps me thinking about what
I'm doing. I have a feeling we don't have as much
terminology for _conlanging_ as we do for _conlangs_,
and that's in a way a pity, not least because if you
want to raise the status of an art form you need to be
able to hold discourse about its practice as well as
its matter.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Oh great joy!
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:51 pm ((PST))
On Dec 25, 2011, at 8:01 PM, BPJ wrote:
> Sorry for laaate reply. I've been busy practically
> around the clock all week, and had time to really look through
> backmail only now.
Not a problem :)
>
> On 2011-12-20 05:30, Eric Christopherson wrote:
>> On Dec 15, 2011, at 1:41 PM, BPJ wrote:
>>
>>> I just stuffed together the contents of two old
>>> cardboard folders with conlang/conculture papers
>>> because I urgently needed a file for something, and out
>>> fell a CD disk with conlang stuff, including a version
>>> of my old Sohlob vocabulary as an .xls file. Alas I can
>>> easily see that this version is a year or two older
>>> than the last version which I lost to file lock-in --
>>> it isn't even converted from the ASCII-based
>>> transcription to the Latin-1 based![^1] (I suspect this
>>> file was made as part of just that conversion) --, but
>>> this can at least be opened with software I still
>>> possess!
>>
>> What format is the other stuff locked into?
>
> .fp7 i.e. FileMaker Pro 7 (for Windoze).
Is the problem that you don't have Windows anymore, or FileMaker Pro?
>
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2011, at 7:02 AM, BPJ wrote:
>>
>>> I'll need to be able to parse the thing as exported to
>>> csv later in order to run the sound change applier
>>> (once I've updated Kijeb entries as needed). The sound
>>> changes have changed a good deal too in seven years! :-)
>>
>
>> I've wondered for a while this question: Does anyone
>> have terminology to describe the changes a language
>> goes through in "con"time, versus the changes the
>> language (in its various diachronic stages, if it's
>> diachronic) goes through in real time?
>
>> As an example, the first type of change would be the
>> changes Kijeb's sound change applier described; the
>> second type of change would be the changes the
>> applier itself goes through in this timeline.
>
> As it happens I do! I call the con-time stages 'stages'
> (in part because the con-time is the theatrical stage
> where the con-history of the lang unfolds) and the
> real-time stages 'revisions', because they are the
> result of conscious decisions on the part of the
> conlanger. See the bottom of p. 9 and most of p. 10 in:
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=vSCKWYbL63oC&lpg=PP1&vq=revision&pg=PA9#v=twopage&q=revision&f=false>
>
> (Much of what I theorized there about *Tolkien's*
> revisioning doesn't seem to tally with evidence in
> material published since then, so I guess what is valid
> in that essay is the general theory of historical
> conlanging in it.)
>
> Similarly I'd talk of 'changes' in the con-history of
> the lang and 'alterations' in the real-world writeup
> for implementing those changes -- whether the 'writeup'
> be a program, a piece of paper or only in mental
> storage -- and of 'periods'[^note] in the con-history
> but 'phases' in the real-history, including phases within
> revisions.
>
> [^note]: Although 'periods' overlaps dangerously with 'stages'
> the difference is between a time period in con-time
> viewed from 'within' ('endopoetically') and a more or
> less discrete part, or 'chapter', of the con-history
> viewed from 'without' ('exopoetically') as a piece of
> fiction.
>
> Maybe not everyone feels a need for so finegrained a
> terminology, but I feel it helps me thinking about what
> I'm doing. I have a feeling we don't have as much
> terminology for _conlanging_ as we do for _conlangs_,
> and that's in a way a pity, not least because if you
> want to raise the status of an art form you need to be
> able to hold discourse about its practice as well as
> its matter.
>
> /bpj
Very interesting, and the piece you wrote looks interesting too. I see we have
a few overlapping terms to choose from. I know what you mean about not everyone
needing a finegrained terminology, but I think (like you) it's useful when
speaking about the craft.
I'm also glad you used the word _revision_, as my grand idea in relation to the
question I asked was to find or develop some sort of revision control system
for conlangs, viz. one that would track both exopoetic/extrafictional revisions
*and* endopoetic/intrafictional stages.
It's just a hint of an idea so far though.
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "J. Snow" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:30 am ((PST))
Now, before I run the risk of sounding stupid (as I probably already have), I
haven't
even graduated high school and therefore have no real experience in linguistics
(nor
will I claim to).
That aside, my topic is this: given the unlikely event that through some means
modern society collapses and the human population plummets (basically, the
Apocolypse), how do you think language will evolve afterwards?
Focusing on English, specifically American English, I think that English will
continue
to be the primary means of comunication between communities long after America
as
a society is gone (much like Latin after the collapse of Rome), but within
several
centuries local vernacular will take it's place. I think this would come sooner
in
places like the American Southwest where forms of Spanglish would arise, as
well as
in more ethnicly diverse communities like San Francisco, Chicago, New York, et
cetera. In smaller, more rural areas I would assume it would go a lot slower.
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:20 am ((PST))
We were thinking about future isolated Englishes a while back but nothing much
became of it. I was simulating an English for my hometown of Manchester (UK).
I'd got as far as stripping down the phonology and planning a future evolution
into tonality and honourifics with a huge bundle of Urdu loanwords. I reckoned
it would be largely incomprehensible within a few generations and completely
different within a few centuries. I know quite a few US list members were
working on stuff as well.
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na il cu barri"
On 26 Dec 2011, at 11:29, J. Snow wrote:
> Now, before I run the risk of sounding stupid (as I probably already have), I
> haven't
> even graduated high school and therefore have no real experience in
> linguistics (nor
> will I claim to).
>
> That aside, my topic is this: given the unlikely event that through some
> means
> modern society collapses and the human population plummets (basically, the
> Apocolypse), how do you think language will evolve afterwards?
>
> Focusing on English, specifically American English, I think that English will
> continue
> to be the primary means of comunication between communities long after
> America as
> a society is gone (much like Latin after the collapse of Rome),
In English speaking parts of the world, certainly, but if communications are
reduced to anything prior, say medieval, I'd guess a lot of the world would
just use whatever their local shared language is, say, Italian, Bengali,
whatever. With no monoglot English speakers within a month's sail of Papau New
Guinea, they're unlikely to going to need to speak English.
> but within several
> centuries local vernacular will take it's place. I think this would come
> sooner in
> places like the American Southwest where forms of Spanglish would arise, as
> well as
> in more ethnicly diverse communities like San Francisco, Chicago, New York,
> et
> cetera. In smaller, more rural areas I would assume it would go a lot slower.
I wouldn't say it would go a "lot" slower, it would just happen differently.
How fragmented is New York in this future.? A south american community in New
York would probably just end up speaking a new dialect of Spanish within a
couple of generations. a Yiddish speaking community would be less quickly, the
same for Italian. In rural areas I imagine a degree of local geo-politics would
play a huge part in language development. If town-tribe X is in conflict with
town-tribe Y, then each will want to strengthen their local identity and social
cohesion which would be mirrored in the language, with slang, dialect and
accent becoming broader and broader until they became mutually incomprehensible.
I think a large part of the relative speed is due to the fact that American
English, compared to other Englishes, is relatively (although not perfectly)
consistent and (I've never lived in the US, so prove me wrong here) there
aren't many big animosities along adjacent borders.
Messages in this topic (2)
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