There are 21 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: Cosman246
1b. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: J. Snow
1c. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: Gary Shannon
1d. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: BPJ
1e. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: Cosman246
1f. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: MorphemeAddict
1g. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: Puey McCleary
1h. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: MorphemeAddict
1i. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: Amanda Babcock Furrow
1j. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: J. Snow
1k. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: J. Snow
1l. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: J. Snow
1m. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
From: Claude Almansi
2.1. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: Sam Stutter
2.2. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: Gary Shannon
2.3. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: BPJ
3a. Re: Oh great joy!
From: BPJ
4a. Re: How Does Everyone Translate?
From: Amanda Babcock Furrow
4b. Re: How Does Everyone Translate?
From: Koppa Dasao
4c. Re: How Does Everyone Translate?
From: Padraic Brown
5a. Barsoomian - Hekkador (was: Barsoomian Project)
From: Fredrik Ekman
Messages
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1a. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "Cosman246" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:46 am ((PST))
Indeed, that would be interesting. I have often thought about the subject
of multiple isolated English languages, but I don't find there much
variation here in Seattle, except maybe some influence from Hindi and
Mandarin.
>and (I've never lived in the US, so prove me wrong here) there aren't many
big animosities along adjacent borders.
There are: Southern US (which also has the most diverse and often parodied
dialect) and the rest of the US. They haven't yet forgotten the US Civil
War...
Messages in this topic (15)
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1b. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "J. Snow" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:56 am ((PST))
Well, you're right about the South being more diverse in general, but wrong
most
everywhere else. (I may be off here) The area in which the "Southern" accent
resides is a strip that runs from Texas throgh the Gulf states (while sparing
Florida)
and ends in the Appalachan mountains. As for the last comment... yeah, that's a
blatant stereotype. I know because I live in the South, and I assure you I
don't fly a
Confederate flag above my front door.
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 07:45:39 -0800, Cosman246
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Indeed, that would be interesting. I have often thought about the subject
>of multiple isolated English languages, but I don't find there much
>variation here in Seattle, except maybe some influence from Hindi and
>Mandarin.
>>and (I've never lived in the US, so prove me wrong here) there aren't many
>big animosities along adjacent borders.
>There are: Southern US (which also has the most diverse and often parodied
>dialect) and the rest of the US. They haven't yet forgotten the US Civil
>War...
Messages in this topic (15)
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1c. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:50 am ((PST))
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 3:29 AM, J. Snow <[email protected]> wrote:
...
> in more ethnicly diverse communities like San Francisco, Chicago, New York, et
> cetera. In smaller, more rural areas I would assume it would go a lot slower.
A fascinating topic, and one that I've wondered about off and on for
years. What I find interesting in the real world is that some
languages are so much more conservative than others. Compare Spanish
and French, for example. Spanish is much more conservative that
French, having changed at a much slower pace, so that Spanish is much
closer to its Latin roots than French. English, on the other hand,
changes so fast that even 16th century English sounds very strange to
our ears, whereas 16th-17th century Spanish isn't all that different
from modern Spanish. Don Quijote (1605) is still popular and widely
read in the original 16th-17th century Spanish whereas Shakespeare,
who was roughly contemporaneous, is considered almost unreadable by
many modern English speakers.
So I don't think the division of urban vs rural is the determining
factor, although I don't have a clue what the real factors are. But as
for areas like NY and SF being more culturally diverse, after some
kind of apocalypse major urban centers would no longer be sustainable
and would probably become deserted. Then you might find pockets of
different cultures settling in isolation from each other. Instead of
China Town you might have a China Village, or a China District out in
the country somewhere, where people from one ethnic background stick
together and choose relative cultural and linguistic isolation from
the outside world, much as the Amish have.
--gary
Messages in this topic (15)
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1d. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:11 pm ((PST))
On 2011-12-26 19:50, Gary Shannon wrote:
> What I find interesting in the real world is that some
> languages are so much more conservative than others. Compare Spanish
> and French, for example. Spanish is much more conservative that
> French, having changed at a much slower pace, so that Spanish is much
> closer to its Latin roots than French. English, on the other hand,
> changes so fast that even 16th century English sounds very strange to
> our ears, whereas 16th-17th century Spanish isn't all that different
> from modern Spanish.
Moreover it doesn't happen at a constant pace. Most of
the change in French happened before the fourteenth
century for example, and while Finnish changed only
slowly for millennia it has been entering a period of
faster change in the last half century or so. Clearly
rate of linguistic change is inversely correlated to
social and cultural stability and literacy!
/bpj
Messages in this topic (15)
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1e. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "Cosman246" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:32 pm ((PST))
Sorry about that last comment. I didn't mean for it to offend, though in
retrospect it looks rather offensive. I would, however, claim that there
are certain political blocks, and the South is one of them with a long
history.
Messages in this topic (15)
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1f. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:33 pm ((PST))
What's the site that gives a possible, detailed evolution of English in
several stages into the future?
stevo
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 3:11 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2011-12-26 19:50, Gary Shannon wrote:
>
>> What I find interesting in the real world is that some
>> languages are so much more conservative than others. Compare Spanish
>> and French, for example. Spanish is much more conservative that
>> French, having changed at a much slower pace, so that Spanish is much
>> closer to its Latin roots than French. English, on the other hand,
>> changes so fast that even 16th century English sounds very strange to
>> our ears, whereas 16th-17th century Spanish isn't all that different
>> from modern Spanish.
>>
>
> Moreover it doesn't happen at a constant pace. Most of
> the change in French happened before the fourteenth
> century for example, and while Finnish changed only
> slowly for millennia it has been entering a period of
> faster change in the last half century or so. Clearly
> rate of linguistic change is inversely correlated to
> social and cultural stability and literacy!
>
> /bpj
>
Messages in this topic (15)
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1g. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "Puey McCleary" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:40 pm ((PST))
Is this it?
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/futurese.html
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 8:33 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> What's the site that gives a possible, detailed evolution of English in
> several stages into the future?
>
> stevo
>
> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 3:11 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 2011-12-26 19:50, Gary Shannon wrote:
> >
> >> What I find interesting in the real world is that some
> >> languages are so much more conservative than others. Compare Spanish
> >> and French, for example. Spanish is much more conservative that
> >> French, having changed at a much slower pace, so that Spanish is much
> >> closer to its Latin roots than French. English, on the other hand,
> >> changes so fast that even 16th century English sounds very strange to
> >> our ears, whereas 16th-17th century Spanish isn't all that different
> >> from modern Spanish.
> >>
> >
> > Moreover it doesn't happen at a constant pace. Most of
> > the change in French happened before the fourteenth
> > century for example, and while Finnish changed only
> > slowly for millennia it has been entering a period of
> > faster change in the last half century or so. Clearly
> > rate of linguistic change is inversely correlated to
> > social and cultural stability and literacy!
> >
> > /bpj
> >
>
--
Puey McCleary
http://pueyandtheprincess.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (15)
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1h. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:58 pm ((PST))
Yes it is. Thanks!
stevo
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Puey McCleary <[email protected]>wrote:
> Is this it?
>
> http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/futurese.html
>
> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 8:33 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > What's the site that gives a possible, detailed evolution of English in
> > several stages into the future?
> >
> > stevo
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 3:11 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > On 2011-12-26 19:50, Gary Shannon wrote:
> > >
> > >> What I find interesting in the real world is that some
> > >> languages are so much more conservative than others. Compare Spanish
> > >> and French, for example. Spanish is much more conservative that
> > >> French, having changed at a much slower pace, so that Spanish is much
> > >> closer to its Latin roots than French. English, on the other hand,
> > >> changes so fast that even 16th century English sounds very strange to
> > >> our ears, whereas 16th-17th century Spanish isn't all that different
> > >> from modern Spanish.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Moreover it doesn't happen at a constant pace. Most of
> > > the change in French happened before the fourteenth
> > > century for example, and while Finnish changed only
> > > slowly for millennia it has been entering a period of
> > > faster change in the last half century or so. Clearly
> > > rate of linguistic change is inversely correlated to
> > > social and cultural stability and literacy!
> > >
> > > /bpj
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Puey McCleary
> http://pueyandtheprincess.conlang.org
>
Messages in this topic (15)
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1i. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:27 pm ((PST))
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 09:11:42PM +0100, BPJ wrote:
> On 2011-12-26 19:50, Gary Shannon wrote:
> >What I find interesting in the real world is that some
> >languages are so much more conservative than others. Compare Spanish
> >and French, for example. Spanish is much more conservative that
> >French, having changed at a much slower pace, so that Spanish is much
> >closer to its Latin roots than French. English, on the other hand,
> >changes so fast that even 16th century English sounds very strange to
> >our ears, whereas 16th-17th century Spanish isn't all that different
> >from modern Spanish.
>
> Moreover it doesn't happen at a constant pace. Most of
> the change in French happened before the fourteenth
> century for example, and while Finnish changed only
> slowly for millennia it has been entering a period of
> faster change in the last half century or so. Clearly
> rate of linguistic change is inversely correlated to
> social and cultural stability and literacy!
Is it possible that the periods of greatest language change
(excluding the ones which correspond with invasions) are
during times when each society is powerful on the world
scale?
tylakèhlpë'fö,
Amanda
Messages in this topic (15)
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1j. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "J. Snow" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:48 pm ((PST))
I'm not offended, simply because I don't know you and I don't care what people
say regardless. It is, however, still a rather ignorant comment that comes from
a lack
of knowledge. And doesn't every society have "political blocks"? Compared to
Europe (Greece more than included), or the Middle East or China, or even the
U.S.
to a point, I would think a handful of southeastern American states is doing
fairly well.
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 12:31:48 -0800, Cosman246
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Sorry about that last comment. I didn't mean for it to offend, though in
>retrospect it looks rather offensive. I would, however, claim that there
>are certain political blocks, and the South is one of them with a long
>history.
Messages in this topic (15)
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1k. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "J. Snow" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:54 pm ((PST))
I was just glancing through it (I'll read more thouroghly when I have the
chance),
and I think it's very fascinating. It'll certainly help me revise some of my
(rather
uneducated) previous thoughts. Kudos to you! ^^
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 20:40:11 -0500, Puey McCleary
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Is this it?
>
>http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/futurese.html
>
>On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 8:33 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>> What's the site that gives a possible, detailed evolution of English in
>> several stages into the future?
>>
>> stevo
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 3:11 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > On 2011-12-26 19:50, Gary Shannon wrote:
>> >
>> >> What I find interesting in the real world is that some
>> >> languages are so much more conservative than others. Compare Spanish
>> >> and French, for example. Spanish is much more conservative that
>> >> French, having changed at a much slower pace, so that Spanish is much
>> >> closer to its Latin roots than French. English, on the other hand,
>> >> changes so fast that even 16th century English sounds very strange to
>> >> our ears, whereas 16th-17th century Spanish isn't all that different
>> >> from modern Spanish.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Moreover it doesn't happen at a constant pace. Most of
>> > the change in French happened before the fourteenth
>> > century for example, and while Finnish changed only
>> > slowly for millennia it has been entering a period of
>> > faster change in the last half century or so. Clearly
>> > rate of linguistic change is inversely correlated to
>> > social and cultural stability and literacy!
>> >
>> > /bpj
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Puey McCleary
>http://pueyandtheprincess.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (15)
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1l. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "J. Snow" [email protected]
Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:11 am ((PST))
>So I don't think the division of urban vs rural is the determining
>factor, although I don't have a clue what the real factors are. But as
>for areas like NY and SF being more culturally diverse, after some
>kind of apocalypse major urban centers would no longer be sustainable
>and would probably become deserted. Then you might find pockets of
>different cultures settling in isolation from each other. Instead of
>China Town you might have a China Village, or a China District out in
>the country somewhere, where people from one ethnic background stick
>together and choose relative cultural and linguistic isolation from
>the outside world, much as the Amish have.
>
>--gary
Hmm, I would have to admit, you're probably right. It would be reasonable to
assume that after a while the languages and especially cultures of people from
'China Village' and the descendants of, say, American blacks, would be
drastically
different from one another. I think, though, that there would at least be a
small
amount of influence of English, and the culture of those before 'the
apococlypse',
no matter where you go. (The topic of how -culture- will change after a
catastrophe
is in my opinion even more interesting than language itself)
Messages in this topic (15)
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1m. Re: Modern Language and the Apocolypse
Posted by: "Claude Almansi" [email protected]
Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:19 am ((PST))
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 9:11 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2011-12-26 19:50, Gary Shannon wrote:
>>
>> What I find interesting in the real world is that some
>> languages are so much more conservative than others. Compare Spanish
>> and French, for example. Spanish is much more conservative that
>> French, having changed at a much slower pace, so that Spanish is much
>> closer to its Latin roots than French. English, on the other hand,
>> changes so fast that even 16th century English sounds very strange to
>> our ears, whereas 16th-17th century Spanish isn't all that different
>> from modern Spanish.
>
>
> Moreover it doesn't happen at a constant pace. Most of
> the change in French happened before the fourteenth
> century for example, and while Finnish changed only
> slowly for millennia it has been entering a period of
> faster change in the last half century or so. Clearly
> rate of linguistic change is inversely correlated to
> social and cultural stability and literacy!
>
> /bpj
Actually, the real freezing of French first happened for the written
language in the 17th c. with the institution of the Académie Française
in 1635, which wields political / administrative powers. The latter
were reinforced at different stages, e.g. when the French revolution
gave birth to the French state, and later with the institution of
state public education, which forbade the use of local dialects even
for speaking.
Between the 14th century and 1635, heaps of new words from Italian and
Latin e.g., made their way into French, at least into the French used
by literate people at first, then getting broader usage.
Re Spanish: an interesting reflection of localism can be found in
translation projects. I'm one of the maintainers of the project for
translating the interface of the universalsubtitles.org social
subtitling web application - see
<https://www.transifex.net/projects/p/universalsubtitles/>. At one
point, someone requested the creation of Spanish (Ecuador) team. After
consulting the other maintainers, I very cautiously asked him if he
might not consider first joining the Spanish (Spain) team: once that
were completed, maybe a Spanish (Ecuador) team might be created and
work on adapting the Spanish (Spain) translation?
He amusedly agreed, and when the Spanish (Spain) translation was
advanced enough, I asked him if I should now create the Spanish
(Ecuador) team, but being otherwise engaged by then, he said it could
wait. However, there is a Spanish (Mexican) team and there could be
several other ones for other variations of Spanish. The Spanish
(Mexican) translation -
<https://www.transifex.net/projects/p/universalsubtitles/resource/locale-en-LC_MESSAGES-django-po_0/l/es_MX/view/>
- does differ from the Spanish (Spain)
<https://www.transifex.net/projects/p/universalsubtitles/resource/locale-en-LC_MESSAGES-django-po_0/l/es_ES/view/>
version, but the differences seem more due to personal choices by the
translators than to basic differences between the two variations of
Spanish.
Also interesting: although teams could be created for variations of
English and French, none have been requested so far.
And this seems to obtain in UniversalSubtitles.org itself too: apart
from my occasionally squatting the English (GB) subtitling track to do
other things like scripting audio descriptions, people seem happy
enough to use the main English (i.e. US English) and French (i.e.
France French) tracks.
By the way, people wishing to collaborate in the translations of the
Universal Subtitles interface are always most gratefully welcome ;-)
Best
Claude Almansi
Messages in this topic (15)
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2.1. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:48 am ((PST))
Just had a quick think about a (not particularly universal) idea for the start
of a textbook:
1) One or two important common words like "hello" which don't get too involved
in grammar and give the student a feel for what words look, sound and "feel"
like.
2) Nouns: identifying class and what that means, then definiteness and then
number.
3) A regular intransitive verb, give a few examples for each paradigm for some
of the persons (like the 1ps, 2ps, 3ps) in the present tense with no mood or
aspect involved.
4) Nouns as direct objects
5) A regular transitive verb, each paradigm in the present tense with no mood
or aspect involved.
6) Common conjunctions
7) The verb(s) "to be" if it isn't a regular verb.
8) Nouns as indirect objects
9) A regular verb which takes an indirect object
10) Adjectives
Yeah, easier said than done, I know.
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na il cu barri"
On 25 Dec 2011, at 22:16, Lee wrote:
> Interesting read. Thanks for digging this up!
>
> Lee
Messages in this topic (33)
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2.2. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:33 am ((PST))
Part of the problem there is that some language don't use the verb "to
be", or even have such a verb. And the notion of "indirect object"
depends on focus as well, so what is an indirect object in an English
sentence might be the subject, or at least the topic of the equivalent
sentence in language X. What if the only culturally correct
translation of "John gave the book to Mary." is "Mary received the
book that was offered by John."? So what would that lesson be called?
It's a complicated subject, no doubt.
Simple greeting are probably a good place to open the first chapter,
though. But where to go next?
The ultimate goal of a language textbook is to teach the student how
to read and write in the target language. Listening to and speaking
the language are skills that must be practiced to be mastered, and if
those skills are to be taught in a textbook then they must be taught
through the medium of reading and writing what is to understood and
spoken.
If the textbook is written in English then it must teach how to
translate from English to the target language and how to translate the
target language into English. The objective of each lesson must then
be to teach how to translate a specific class of sentences to and from
the target language.
Take, for example, the notion of existence. The target language may or
may not use a verb like the English "to be" to express existence.
Instead of saying "There is a book on the table." it might use a
verb-less construction like "On table a book." Or it might use a verb
like "to have": "The table has a book." (The Spanish "Hay un libro en
la mesa." uses "hay", a form of the verb "haber" to have." And even in
English it's possible to say things like "On this table we have a
book.")
For this reason there could not be a lesson titled "The Verb To Be".
Instead, the lesson must be described in terms of the objective of
that lesson: Expressing Existence. And the specific objective of the
chapter is to teach how to translate such English sentences as "There
is a book on the table." and "There are no people in the room."
Likewise, if the target language does not use a verb like "to have" to
talk about possession, the language still has some way or another to
talk about possession. (e.g. Russian: "With me a book.") Therefore the
lesson title should not be anything like "The Verb To Have", but
should instead be something like "Talking About Possession." The
objective of the lesson is, again, to learn how to translate various
English sentences into the target language; including things like:
"The boy has a book."; "The girl does not have a pencil." With
sentences to distinguish between alienable and inalienable possession,
("John has two ears.") mere possession versus ownership, ("Tom owns
the book.") and "the having" of relatives like; "Mary has two
sisters.".
So I think the lesson plan, or outline of the text would run something
like: (just to pick some random subject and random fictional lesson
numbers)
1. Talking About Existence. (with target sentences)
2. Talking About Possession and Ownership. (with target sentences)
3. Talking About Attributes. (With target sentences using "copula plus
adjectives" or "verbal adjectives" (The book reds.) or whatever the
languages uses to translate "The book is red."
4. Qualifying Nouns With Attributes, (How to translate "I have a red
book." and "There is a red book on the table."
...
7. Making Comparisons, ("John is taller than Mary." "My father is as
old as your father.")
...
15. Qualifying Nouns With Associations, (How to translate "I found the
book _that was lost_." "I saw the boy _with red hair_."
...
22. Contingent Expressions. (How to translate "_If_ it rains _then_ I
will stay inside." "I bought a bicycle _so that_ I can ride to work."
And so on.
--gary
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 7:48 AM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> Just had a quick think about a (not particularly universal) idea for the
> start of a textbook:
>
> 1) One or two important common words like "hello" which don't get too
> involved in grammar and give the student a feel for what words look, sound
> and "feel" like.
> 2) Nouns: identifying class and what that means, then definiteness and then
> number.
> 3) A regular intransitive verb, give a few examples for each paradigm for
> some of the persons (like the 1ps, 2ps, 3ps) in the present tense with no
> mood or aspect involved.
> 4) Nouns as direct objects
> 5) A regular transitive verb, each paradigm in the present tense with no mood
> or aspect involved.
> 6) Common conjunctions
> 7) The verb(s) "to be" if it isn't a regular verb.
> 8) Nouns as indirect objects
> 9) A regular verb which takes an indirect object
> 10) Adjectives
>
> Yeah, easier said than done, I know.
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na il cu barri"
>
> On 25 Dec 2011, at 22:16, Lee wrote:
>
>> Interesting read. Thanks for digging this up!
>>
>> Lee
Messages in this topic (33)
________________________________________________________________________
2.3. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:50 am ((PST))
On 2011-12-26 19:33, Gary Shannon wrote:
> Likewise, if the target language does not use a verb like "to have" to
> talk about possession, the language still has some way or another to
> talk about possession. (e.g. Russian: "With me a book.") Therefore the
> lesson title should not be anything like "The Verb To Have", but
> should instead be something like "Talking About Possession." The
> objective of the lesson is, again, to learn how to translate various
> English sentences into the target language; including things like:
> "The boy has a book."; "The girl does not have a pencil." With
> sentences to distinguish between alienable and inalienable possession,
> ("John has two ears.") mere possession versus ownership, ("Tom owns
> the book.") and "the having" of relatives like; "Mary has two
> sisters.".
That's why linguists use terms like 'possessive
construction', 'existential construction' and
'predicative construction': they describe the
objective/semantics rather than get hanged up on how
any particular language expresses it -- w/o a verb or
whatever. I don't think you should be afraid of using
such terms provided you accompany them with a simple
explanation including examples from English and other
well-known languages. After all it's fair to assume
that readers interested in a conlang have some savvy
and interest in linguistics.
BTW in Sohlob inalienable possession, alienable
possession and 'having relatives' are all expressed
differently: inalienable possession uses a dedicated
verb 'have', alienable possession uses 'there is' +
locative prepositions while 'having relatives' uses
'there is' + 'to'. Sohlçan grammarians call the copula
"the empty verb" because it's only ever used in nominal
predication and affirmation (there is no 'yes') and is
obligatory only in the latter. Moreover it's wholly
distinct from 'there is', 'be located' and 'exist',
and these three are distinct from each other too.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (33)
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3a. Re: Oh great joy!
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:05 pm ((PST))
On 2011-12-26 05:51, Eric Christopherson wrote:
> On Dec 25, 2011, at 8:01 PM, BPJ wrote:
>
>> Sorry for laaate reply. I've been busy practically
>> around the clock all week, and had time to really look through
>> backmail only now.
>
> Not a problem :)
>
>>
>> On 2011-12-20 05:30, Eric Christopherson wrote:
>>> On Dec 15, 2011, at 1:41 PM, BPJ wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just stuffed together the contents of two old
>>>> cardboard folders with conlang/conculture papers
>>>> because I urgently needed a file for something, and out
>>>> fell a CD disk with conlang stuff, including a version
>>>> of my old Sohlob vocabulary as an .xls file. Alas I can
>>>> easily see that this version is a year or two older
>>>> than the last version which I lost to file lock-in --
>>>> it isn't even converted from the ASCII-based
>>>> transcription to the Latin-1 based![^1] (I suspect this
>>>> file was made as part of just that conversion) --, but
>>>> this can at least be opened with software I still
>>>> possess!
>>>
>>> What format is the other stuff locked into?
>>
>> .fp7 i.e. FileMaker Pro 7 (for Windoze).
>
> Is the problem that you don't have Windows anymore, or FileMaker Pro?
The latter, i.e. no FMP, and usually no Windoze either,
though that can be solved across the corridor, should need
arise.
>>> On Dec 17, 2011, at 7:02 AM, BPJ wrote:
[snip]
> Very interesting, and the piece you wrote looks
> interesting too. I see we have a few overlapping
> terms to choose from. I know what you mean about not
> everyone needing a finegrained terminology, but I
> think (like you) it's useful when speaking about the
> craft.
>
> I'm also glad you used the word _revision_, as my
> grand idea in relation to the question I asked was to
> find or develop some sort of revision control system
> for conlangs, viz. one that would track both
> exopoetic/extrafictional revisions *and*
> endopoetic/intrafictional stages.
The problem with that is of course that you
two time axes there, as I wrote in the paper.
You'd need references or pointers of some kind
to achive that.
>
> It's just a hint of an idea so far though.
I could sure need it. I'm just now learning to
use revision control systems though, and could
have use for a "Revision Control for Dummies".
You (or anyone on the list) don't happen to
know of (a good and free) one?
If you are collecting feature requests I have
one: storage should be based on text files!
/bpj
Messages in this topic (16)
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4a. Re: How Does Everyone Translate?
Posted by: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" [email protected]
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:25 pm ((PST))
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 03:07:57PM +0000, Sam Stutter wrote:
> I know it's a couple of weeks back, but when I wrote out my card exchange
> letter I think I've managed to refine my translation method. I used to
> work sentence by sentence / clause by clause.
When I write in merechi these days, I come up with a general outline in my
head in English (the precise words of which I don't pay attention to), and
then start collecting merechi words that are related to what I'm trying to
express, and build something out of them without any one-to-one word matching.
I still need to coin lots of words since my lexicon is far smaller than 26
years of development would seem to indicate. Actually, less than 50 words
a year on average! Never thought of it that way before.
tylakèhlpë'fö,
Amanda
Messages in this topic (10)
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4b. Re: How Does Everyone Translate?
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:07 am ((PST))
What? 26 years and only less than 1300 words?
I've been developing Delang for two years and got about 1300 words.
Koppa Dasao
___
Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
2011/12/27 Amanda Babcock Furrow <[email protected]>:
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 03:07:57PM +0000, Sam Stutter wrote:
>
>> I know it's a couple of weeks back, but when I wrote out my card exchange
>> letter I think I've managed to refine my translation method. I used to
>> work sentence by sentence / clause by clause.
>
> When I write in merechi these days, I come up with a general outline in my
> head in English (the precise words of which I don't pay attention to), and
> then start collecting merechi words that are related to what I'm trying to
> express, and build something out of them without any one-to-one word matching.
> I still need to coin lots of words since my lexicon is far smaller than 26
> years of development would seem to indicate. Actually, less than 50 words
> a year on average! Never thought of it that way before.
>
> tylakÄhlpÄ'fö,
> Amanda
Messages in this topic (10)
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4c. Re: How Does Everyone Translate?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:28 am ((PST))
--- On Tue, 12/27/11, Koppa Dasao <[email protected]> wrote:
> What? 26 years and only less than 1300 words?
They're very well crafted, mind!
> I've been developing Delang for two years and got about
> 1300 words.
Although I've been working on Kerno for about twelve (and its source
language for perhaps four or five before that); and Talarian for about
as long, I think there are about as many words officially listed in the
lexicon. I'll have to count them and see! But out of those twelve years,
only about one or two were really spent developing the language; the
subsequent years were spent mostly on refinements and fiddling about.
Padraic
> Koppa Dasao
> ___
> Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut
> out!
>
>
>
> 2011/12/27 Amanda Babcock Furrow <[email protected]>:
> > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 03:07:57PM +0000, Sam Stutter
> wrote:
> >
> >> I know it's a couple of weeks back, but when I
> wrote out my card exchange
> >> letter I think I've managed to refine my
> translation method. I used to
> >> work sentence by sentence / clause by clause.
> >
> > When I write in merechi these days, I come up with a
> general outline in my
> > head in English (the precise words of which I don't
> pay attention to), and
> > then start collecting merechi words that are related
> to what I'm trying to
> > express, and build something out of them without any
> one-to-one word matching.
> > I still need to coin lots of words since my lexicon is
> far smaller than 26
> > years of development would seem to indicate.
> Actually, less than 50 words
> > a year on average! Never thought of it that way
> before.
> >
> > tylakÄhlpÄ'fö,
> > Amanda
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Barsoomian - Hekkador (was: Barsoomian Project)
Posted by: "Fredrik Ekman" [email protected]
Date: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:06 am ((PST))
This is a comment on Donald Boozer's third blog post on the Barsoomian
language, titled "Hek, Shahek, Ron, Phai: All in the Barsoomian Family"
and published at http://library.conlang.org/blog/?p=610
Don,
As you suggest yourself, you are on deep waters here. Nevertheless, you
make many conclusions that I like; some of which parallel my own. The word
*ron meaning 'son' for instance, makes a lot of sense, although I am
bothered by the fact that it is only attested in a single name.
I also think that you are absolutely correct in saying that "Lorquas
Ptomel, Jed" should actually be written without the comma; it is thus
equivalent to the translation 'Chief Lorquas Ptomel' (though we also have
examples of phrases and compounds where the head comes last, e.g. Ay-Mad
'First Man').
Another thing I agree with is that hekkador, Phaidor, and perhaps also
Shador, are connected with the word Dor. And the translation of Dor as
'Heaven' is perhaps not that far off, at least not if you imply Heaven
only in its transferred sense of "place of life eternal; home of God". In
the same way, Dor may well have some other meaning originally, but as the
religion of Issus has gained in strength, so the meaning of Dor has
shifted.
But when you start to go even further, I am no longer with you. For
instance, playing the telepathy card at this point seems a bit cheap, at
best. It is hard to say what Burroughs' exact intentions with the
language's telepathic component was. Perhaps he was not entirely sure
himself. But my gut feeling is that he saw it as complementary rather than
supplementary, i.e. the exact same message could be sent either with
speech or through telepathy. Although this is not unproblematic (no theory
about Barsoomian telepathy is), it seems a necessary conclusion for
several reasons, some of which I explain in Barsoomian 101, Part 5:
Telepathy (ERB-APA #104). If I am correct, then telepathy cannot have a
linguistic function in semantics nor in grammar. It is just another
medium.
I think, however, that the main problem with your assumptions is that you
take "Father of Therns" to be a translation of hekkador. I have many times
wished the same thing, and I have had similar ideas for other English
descriptive titles associated with Barsoomian names or titles, such as
Issus, Goddess of Life Eternal, or Iss, the River of Mystery. However, I
find no passage where such a title is definitely given as a translation
but several where it is definitely not. For instance, take the following
quote where the word hekkador is first used:
"I am Phaidor, daughter of Matai Shang, Holy Hekkador of the Holy Therns,
Father of Therns, Master of Life and Death upon Barsoom, Brother of Issus,
Prince of Life Eternal."
Here we see the titles piled upon each other, and nothing to indicate that
hekkador is closer connected with "Father of Therns" than with any of the
others.
Furthermore, in the glossary at the end of Thuvia, Maid of Mars, hekkador
is described as "Title of Father of Therns." Again, we find a separation
of the two, not an equalization.
So while I would very much like to accept your list of family terms at the
end, I cannot.
Though if we must form a mother-word from hek, why not use the feminine
suffix -a (which you have already pointed out is common at the end of
female names) to create *heka. After all, a mother is not really the
opposite of a father.
Fredrik
Messages in this topic (8)
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