There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: describing sounds
From: Rusiok
2a. Re: Natural World Taxonomies
From: David McCann
3.1. What language is this?
From: Ian Spolarich
3.2. Re: What language is this?
From: Brian
3.3. Re: What language is this?
From: Alex Fink
3.4. Re: What language is this?
From: MorphemeAddict
3.5. Re: What language is this?
From: kechpaja
3.6. Re: What language is this?
From: MorphemeAddict
4a. Barsoomian titles (was: Barsoomian Project)
From: Fredrik Ekman
5. Merry Yule and Happy New Year all!
From: taliesin the storyteller
6. Babel Tower stele
From: Sai
7a. Re: OT: Linguistics applied to computer security
From: Sai
Messages
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1a. Re: describing sounds
Posted by: "Rusiok" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:02 am ((PST))
--- Èñõîäíîå ñîîáùåíèå ---
Îò êîãî: "Adam Walker" <[email protected]>
Êîìó: [email protected]
Äàòà: 30 äåêàáðÿ 2011, 03:05:58
Òåìà: describing sounds
>
The Vowel û has not the analogy in English. It is close to 'ee' ('beep')
but more locked and has not the articulations in the manner of sprained
lips.
I guess the lesson was written originally for the Russian û. In fact,
Kabardian û is the usual English ?
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Natural World Taxonomies
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:35 am ((PST))
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 22:58:28 +0000
Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> Since relocating my conculture, I've been going about cataloguing the
> sorts of wildlife my Nỳspèke speakers will come across. What I'm
> finding difficult is, what level of species detail would a language
> go into?
>
> What causes "crow", "rook" and "raven" to be differentiated
> by species and all the finches and owls not to be?
There are various factors:
1. Visibility. We see more corvids than owls, because the latter are
largely nocturnal.
2. Appearance. A magpie cannot be confused with a crow or rook.
3. Behaviour. As the old saying goes, "If you see a flock of crows,
they're rooks; if you see a rook, it's a crow."
4. Song. Few people get to see a nightjar, but the sound is
unmistakable.
Messages in this topic (4)
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3.1. What language is this?
Posted by: "Ian Spolarich" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:22 pm ((PST))
Silly request, I know, but neither Google or I can figure out what language
this is:
"Fevrale dosat chernil i plakat pisat O fevrale navsnryd poka grohochushaya
slyakot vesnoyu charnoyu gorit"
It looks a bit Slavic, but that's all I can get out of it. Sorry for not
being Conlang-related.
-Ian
Messages in this topic (30)
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3.2. Re: What language is this?
Posted by: "Brian" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:42 pm ((PST))
It looks like an attempt at a romanization of Russian but I don't know Slavic
languages that well so don't take my word for it.
------Original Message------
From: Ian Spolarich
Sender: Conlang
To: Conlang
ReplyTo: Conlang
Subject: What language is this?
Sent: Dec 30, 2011 20:12
Silly request, I know, but neither Google or I can figure out what language
this is:
"Fevrale dosat chernil i plakat pisat O fevrale navsnryd poka grohochushaya
slyakot vesnoyu charnoyu gorit"
It looks a bit Slavic, but that's all I can get out of it. Sorry for not
being Conlang-related.
-Ian
Messages in this topic (30)
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3.3. Re: What language is this?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:54 pm ((PST))
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:12:13 -0600, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
>Silly request, I know, but neither Google or I can figure out what language
>this is:
>
>"Fevrale dosat chernil i plakat pisat O fevrale navsnryd poka grohochushaya
>slyakot vesnoyu charnoyu gorit"
>
>It looks a bit Slavic, but that's all I can get out of it. Sorry for not
>being Conlang-related.
It clearly wants to be Russian, in particular, not merely Slavic. But I
asked Sai and he said that the recognisable words in it don't cohere for
him. He makes it out thus:
February ?? blacken.PAST.M and cry.INF write.INF about February ??
until/while ??-wanted ?? spring.INSTR ?? burn.INF
and the word _navsnyrd_ makes his phonotactic nose wrinkle.
Alex
Messages in this topic (30)
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3.4. Re: What language is this?
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:13 pm ((PST))
On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 9:54 PM, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:12:13 -0600, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Silly request, I know, but neither Google or I can figure out what
> language
> >this is:
> >
> >"Fevrale dosat chernil i plakat pisat O fevrale navsnryd poka
> grohochushaya
> >slyakot vesnoyu charnoyu gorit"
> >
> >It looks a bit Slavic, but that's all I can get out of it. Sorry for not
> >being Conlang-related.
>
> Yes, it's poorly transliterated Russian:
âФевÑалÑ. ÐоÑÑаÑÑ ÑеÑнил и плакаÑÑ!
ÐиÑаÑÑ Ð¾ ÑевÑале навзÑÑд,
Ðока гÑоÑ
оÑÑÑÐ°Ñ ÑлÑкоÑÑ
ÐеÑÐ½Ð¾Ñ ÑеÑÐ½Ð¾Ñ Ð³Ð¾ÑиÑ.â â
Boris Pasternak, *ФевÑалÑ*
http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/pasternak?before=1312398377
Black spring! Pick up your pen, and weeping,
Of February, in sobs and ink,
Write poems, while the slush in thunder
Is burning in the black of spring.
http://allpoetry.com/poem/8506781-Black_spring__Pick_up_your_pen__and_weeping...-by-Boris_Pasternak
stevo
> It clearly wants to be Russian, in particular, not merely Slavic. But I
> asked Sai and he said that the recognisable words in it don't cohere for
> him. He makes it out thus:
>
> February ?? blacken.PAST.M and cry.INF write.INF about February ??
> until/while ??-wanted ?? spring.INSTR ?? burn.INF
>
> and the word _navsnyrd_ makes his phonotactic nose wrinkle.
>
> Alex
>
Messages in this topic (30)
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3.5. Re: What language is this?
Posted by: "kechpaja" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:27 pm ((PST))
It seems to be a badly-transliterated stanza from a poem, in Russian, by Boris
Pasternak. The full text of the stanza is as follows:
ФевÑалÑ. ÐоÑÑаÑÑ ÑеÑнил и плакаÑÑ!
ÐиÑаÑÑ Ð¾ ÑевÑале навзÑÑд,
Ðока гÑоÑ
оÑÑÑÐ°Ñ ÑлÑкоÑÑ
ÐеÑÐ½Ð¾Ñ ÑеÑÐ½Ð¾Ñ Ð³Ð¾ÑиÑ.
A better transliteration would be:
Fevral'. Dostat' chernil i plakat'!
Pisat' o fevralye navzryd,
Poka grohochushaya slyakot'
Vesnoyu chërnoyu gorit.
And translated, very, very roughly:
February. Fetch ink and cry!
Write about February, sobbing*,
While the rumbling slush
Burns with the black spring.
*"плакаÑÑ Ð½Ð°Ð²Ð·ÑÑд" means "to sob", I assume the use of the second
word alone here is intended to convey that idea.
I'm no native speaker; I hope I haven't made a total mess out of this.
-Kelvin
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 21:54:44 -0500
Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:12:13 -0600, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Silly request, I know, but neither Google or I can figure out what language
> >this is:
> >
> >"Fevrale dosat chernil i plakat pisat O fevrale navsnryd poka grohochushaya
> >slyakot vesnoyu charnoyu gorit"
> >
> >It looks a bit Slavic, but that's all I can get out of it. Sorry for not
> >being Conlang-related.
>
> It clearly wants to be Russian, in particular, not merely Slavic. But I
> asked Sai and he said that the recognisable words in it don't cohere for
> him. He makes it out thus:
>
> February ?? blacken.PAST.M and cry.INF write.INF about February ??
> until/while ??-wanted ?? spring.INSTR ?? burn.INF
>
> and the word _navsnyrd_ makes his phonotactic nose wrinkle.
>
> Alex
--
Lûk torktas blût spârva alrôrik.
Laws are a poor substitute for true integrity.
Messages in this topic (30)
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3.6. Re: What language is this?
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:04 pm ((PST))
On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 1:27 AM, kechpaja <[email protected]> wrote:
> It seems to be a badly-transliterated stanza from a poem, in Russian, by
> Boris Pasternak. The full text of the stanza is as follows:
>
> ФевÑалÑ. ÐоÑÑаÑÑ ÑеÑнил и плакаÑÑ!
> ÐиÑаÑÑ Ð¾ ÑевÑале навзÑÑд,
> Ðока гÑоÑ
оÑÑÑÐ°Ñ ÑлÑкоÑÑ
> ÐеÑÐ½Ð¾Ñ ÑеÑÐ½Ð¾Ñ Ð³Ð¾ÑиÑ.
>
> A better transliteration would be:
> Fevral'. Dostat' chernil i plakat'!
> Pisat' o fevralye navzryd,
> Poka grohochushaya slyakot'
> Vesnoyu chërnoyu gorit.
>
> And translated, very, very roughly:
> February. Fetch ink and cry!
> Write about February, sobbing*,
> While the rumbling slush
> Burns with the black spring.
>
> *"плакаÑÑ Ð½Ð°Ð²Ð·ÑÑд" means "to sob", I assume the use of the
> second word
> alone here is intended to convey that idea.
>
> The first word ("плакаÑÑ") is at the end of the preceding line. No
> need
to assume.
stevo
> I'm no native speaker; I hope I haven't made a total mess out of this.
>
> -Kelvin
>
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 21:54:44 -0500
> Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:12:13 -0600, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > >Silly request, I know, but neither Google or I can figure out what
> language
> > >this is:
> > >
> > >"Fevrale dosat chernil i plakat pisat O fevrale navsnryd poka
> grohochushaya
> > >slyakot vesnoyu charnoyu gorit"
> > >
> > >It looks a bit Slavic, but that's all I can get out of it. Sorry for not
> > >being Conlang-related.
> >
> > It clearly wants to be Russian, in particular, not merely Slavic. But I
> > asked Sai and he said that the recognisable words in it don't cohere for
> > him. He makes it out thus:
> >
> > February ?? blacken.PAST.M and cry.INF write.INF about February ??
> > until/while ??-wanted ?? spring.INSTR ?? burn.INF
> >
> > and the word _navsnyrd_ makes his phonotactic nose wrinkle.
> >
> > Alex
>
>
> --
> Lûk torktas blût spârva alrôrik.
> Laws are a poor substitute for true integrity.
>
Messages in this topic (30)
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4a. Barsoomian titles (was: Barsoomian Project)
Posted by: "Fredrik Ekman" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:31 pm ((PST))
This is a comment on Donald Boozer's fourth blog post on the Barsoomian
language, titled "Dejah Thoris Phai-Dara! More Barsoomian Vocabulary" and
published at http://library.conlang.org/blog/?p=623
Don,
Burroughs' Barsoomian titles are indeed a good source for further semantic
information, although as you suggest yourself, we can only do educated
guessing.
To begin with, I think the translation of jedwar as 'warlord' must be
incorrect. When John Carter is appointed as warlord I get the impression
that it is something unprecedented, something which has not happened
before, at least not for ages. Nominally, the warlord is actually higher
than the jeddak, while the jedwar is lower. I would prefer to translated
jedwar as 'field marshal'. What 'warlord' translates to we shall never
know, unless we invent it ourselves.
In your list of titles, you seem to have forgotten teedwar, which I
interpret as 'colonel', as it comes between dwar and odwar. I take the
literal meaning to be 'tenth dwar', since there appears to be one teedwar
in every ten dwars.
I agree fully with your suggestion for panthan. The *pan morpheme can also
be found in the the country Panar and its capital Pankor. Even though many
of its citizens may disagree, I think it would be reasonable to want to
name a country and city by the names 'Land of the Free' and 'City of the
Free'. This also gives us *ar for 'country' and *kor for 'city', although
the latter is not confirmed in any other known city name, exept Korad,
where it is in the beginning of the word, not the end. *ar, on the other
hand, also exists in Okar, the only other named country which is not
identical with its chief city.
When it comes to gorthan, however, I no longer agree. The gorthans are not
without loyalty. They are loyal to their guilds. Also, we are told that
while many gorthans are despised and feared, some are more like Robin Hood
characters, who kill only those who deserve it. Further, the gorthans use
that title for themselves. Thus, I do not feel that a negative meaning is
warranted. Something neutral would seem more in order. The gorthans are
assassins, in other words killers for hire. Would it not be reasonable if
their title had something to do with killing? Perhaps *gor means 'death'?
'Death-soldier' has rather a ring to it, I think.
Your suggestion for kadar is not improbable, but since I do not buy your
interpretation for hekkador, that rather weakens your case from my point
of view. That it should be a case of the same morpheme is very possible,
however, and not something I have thought about before. The word dar also
means something like 'regiment', so perhaps a kadar is a 'member of a
regiment', although it does not seem to be an inherently military term.
Note that dar also exists in darseen and zitidar, so unless you want to
deal with a host of homonyms, you will need a hypothesis which is
inclusive of them all.
That padwar should be parsed as pad+dwar makes sense given the similarity
to padan 'day', which is in turn related to teean 'month'. But there is no
reason to assume that every morpheme connected with dwar has to end in -d,
so odwar could just as well be parsed as o+dwar, which is my preferred
interpretation. Otherwise, your suggestion of 'superior' does make sense.
I think the operative phonolgical rule here is something along the lines
of: "If a compound contains more than two consecutive consonants, and
those consonants do not include pt or ks/x, then one consonant is
deleted." If that holds true, then odwar could just as well be ok+dwar,
ol+dwar, or any similar combination. I discuss this further in Barsoomian
101, Part 7: Phonology (ERB-APA #106).
I do not think that *dak and *dara (of jeddak and jeddara) are the same
morpheme, even though the titles would at first seem to be a corresponding
male/female pair. In Barsoomian 101, Part 8: Morphology (ERB-APA #107) I
suggest that *dar could be the positive form 'great', while *dak could be
superlative 'greatest'. This is pure speculation, however. At any rate, I
still believe that -a is the feminine suffix, so that *jeddaka would be a
possible word, although for cultural reasons it would not be used in
practice.
And I still think that using telepathy the way you do is cheating. I hope
you do not mind my saying so. But the point is that if telepathy works the
way you suggest, you still have to define all the symbols and grammar of
that telepathy. I mean, telepathy would still be part of the language,
right? So it has to be defined or you can never (de)construct the entire
language. The big problem with your suggestion, however, is that Burroughs
explicitly states that the First Born do not know the art of telepathy,
yet they can communicate in Barsoomian. Thus, the language must be able to
stand on its own.
Fredrik
Messages in this topic (9)
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5. Merry Yule and Happy New Year all!
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:37 pm ((PST))
I haven't read any e-mail for the last week or so as I've been busy
christmas-vacationing. It's the only large block of free time a year I
insist on spending at home, so I've been busy reading and programming
(and sleeping! More than six hours a night! The noisy neighbors are away!).
I bought a Kindle January this year, and have so far read slightly more
than a hundred ebooks on it. AFAIK .mobi (and thus Kindle) is still the
only format that have a dictionary-version, no change from earlier this
year. I've changed my Kindle to use WordNet as its dictionary, but
haven't gotten around to making a .mobi-dictionary for Taruven yet. If
any of you have recently come into the possession of a lovely, lovely
e-reader the forum to be on is Mobilreread (http://www.mobileread.com/).
And do heed the wisdom of Apprentice Alf!
I attended LCC4 this year, and recommend the experience! I hope all you
lot that I finally got to meet also remember it fondly and that ya'll
had a swift, easy journey home.
This year's christmas present to myself, is that I've finally pushed the
source code of CALS (http://cals.conlang.org) onto github. So if you
want to you can install your own private CALS or play around with the
code. I'll be adding more info on how to install later but it will be
aimed towards developers, not end-users, and towards *nix, not Windows.
Questions about the code and how to install are welcome, but should be
sent directly to me, not the list.
Conlanging-wise, Taruven has hardly any new words, which is "the same
procedure as every year". I've been doing a lot of research on
subordinating clauses though, and have started writing a chapter about
it. Unfortunately I got side-tracked by WOLD,
(http://wold.livingsources.org/) which lead me both to add word lists to
CALS and to read Carl Darling Buck's "A Dictionary of Selected Synonyms
in the Principal Indo-European Languages" from cover to cover.
So, skÄni, as they say in Taruven instead of "see you later", I've got
books to read and tea to drink, for a few hours more.
t.
Messages in this topic (1)
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6. Babel Tower stele
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:54 am ((PST))
http://news.discovery.com/history/tower-of-babel-111227.html
Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: OT: Linguistics applied to computer security
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:58 am ((PST))
Here's her talk about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEfedtQVOY
- sai
Messages in this topic (6)
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