There are 2 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: A Quick Question
From: Padraic Brown
2a. Re: Sironu Verbs
From: Sam Stutter
Messages
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1a. Re: A Quick Question
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:55 am ((PST))
--- On Tue, 1/10/12, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> > If you find that some little word is associated with the
> > dative or the genitive or the nominative -- then thát is
> > the case which that adposition "governs". Don't let the
> > grammarians tell you that the nominative *can't* take a
> > preposition!
>
> A half-decent _descriptive_ grammarian will merely point
> out
> that no Indo-European languages are known where
> prepositions
> govern the nominative case (unless, of course, one starts
> classifying certain conlangs as IE - but I have no wish to
> go down that road again!!).
Question. While looking up the til + gen. to revive my memory of it, I
came across something that *appears to be* a prep. + nominative. In Greek.
Perhaps you can elucdate what's actually going on with "huper ego" in
2Cor (I think 11:23ish)? Is it "bad Greek", idiomatic Greek or some kind of
Aramaicism? Anatolianism? Something else entirely?
> > If your language has prepositions that are associated
> > with the nominative or the vocative,
>
> However, if you have a distinct vocative (and AFAIK most
> languages don't), it is rather difficult to see what sense
> a preposition with a vocative would give :)
I guess any sense you'd care to give it! Is there any underlying reason,
apart from historic accident, that til + gen. indicates motion towards
in Icelandic, while ad + acc. does the same in Latin?
So, why not ak + voc!
u Evanne! = John!
ak Evanne = towards John
Also, as far as I understand IE vocative, it is really a modulated stem,
not a case ending per se. So, some words have stems that vary between
-o and -e for example. I don't see why a language that declines for case
and has such a stem variation could not have a separate declension for
different uses of the vocative:
u Evanne! = John!
ak Evannes = towards John
rek Evanned = with John
Along with the normal -o stem forms:
Evannos, Evannoi, Evanno, Evannum, Evannud.
I suppose if you did that, then you'd just call the bare -e stem the
"vocative" and the other declined forms some other cases of the -e stem.
Oh, well! Then just leave em as u Evanne / ak Evanne / rek Evanne.
Padraic
> Ray
Messages in this topic (18)
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2a. Re: Sironu Verbs
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:05 am ((PST))
On 12 Jan 2012, at 22:56, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 4:15 PM, J. Snow <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I've recently been working on improving my conlang's verb system, and I'd
>> like
>> to see if I can get some ideas to add onto/alter what I already have.
>>
>> -Verbs have 3 tenses and two moods, indicative and negative.
>>
>
> I love negative moods. Which is a very odd sentence to type.
I like the imperative mood vs. the prohibitive mood
>
>
>>
>> -Subject and object pronouns can be added to the verb as prefixes and
>> afixes, respectively.
>>
>
> A prefix is a type of affix. Do you mean suffix?
Or an infix? I love those little dudes :)
>
>
>>
>> -The verb can be made imperative by adding qe- (you sing., nominative).
>>
>
> Then it has three moods: indicative, negative, and imperative.
Ayo, indeed. How do you form interrogatives?
>
>
>> -You add vas- vax- or vaxo- (depending on the letter after it) to make
>> gerunds.
>>
>
> Are gerunds distinct from infinitives? That distinction isn't universal.
I presume you're using aspect in terms of auxiliary verbs then? Am I correct in
thinking that English is a little different to other languages in its very
frequent use of the gerund?
>
>
>>
>> -Tacking the auxillary word "po" in front of it makes the verb imperfect.
>>
>
> Then you're also dealing with aspect, as well as tense.
There's a huge bundle of potential other aspects to get involved with. It
depends whether you want *Aspect* marked on the verb itself or using "aspect"
as some sort of additional construction. Hence "I finished eating" vs. I
ate(TERMINATIVE)
>
>
>>
>> After that, I've pretty much run out of ideas.
>>
>
> Try some translations and see what happens!
Or, do what I did and plundered as many lists of moods, aspects and tenses
found in the world and see if they work.
I always find the subjunctive is a good place to start when it comes to extra
moods. In Spanish and French it always seems to handle "just like a tense" and
doesn't appear to adhere to the laws of physics, just being "that tense that
does all that crazy stuff". Nỳspèkè is obsessed with moods (and case as
well), with the desiderative, precative, cohortative, optative and jussive all
being used in requests only under certain circumstances, based upon politeness,
intention and whether speaker / listener is capable of fulfilling that wish.
When it comes to tense, does your language have a reason to divide the past and
future up into components? Nỳspèkè sees time as being in terms of days,
months, years and then that time in the past where fairytales happen and that
time in the future where the apocalypse happens (neither of which has / will
ever *actually* take place).
Then again, Caccigga is really tedious in just having a subjunctive,
interrogative and imperative mood, and handling all its aspects like Spanish.
Tenses: present, future, imperfect, preterite, conditional. I wouldn't say not
having a huge number of tenses, aspects, moods, etc is a *bad thing*. Just like
Patrick says, if you can translate something into your lang without too much
hassle, that's probably all you need on that front, so long as you remember it
doesn't have to do it like any other natlang does.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (4)
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