There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Lonely Planet Guides
From: Padraic Brown
1b. Re: Lonely Planet Guides
From: Adam Walker
1c. Re: Lonely Planet Guides
From: Padraic Brown
2. Fwd: This thing changed my life...
From: Douglas Treadwell
3a. Possession
From: John Erickson
3b. Re: Possession
From: Patrick Dunn
3c. Re: Possession
From: Logan Kearsley
3d. Re: Possession
From: Wm Annis
3e. Re: Possession
From: Michael Everson
3f. Re: Possession
From: Dale McCreery
3g. Re: Possession
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3h. Re: Possession
From: Matthew Boutilier
3i. Re: Possession
From: Roger Mills
3j. Possession
From: Mechthild Czapp
3k. Re: Possession
From: Roger Mills
3l. Re: Possession
From: Alex Fink
3m. Re: Possession
From: Charlie Brickner
3n. Re: Possession
From: Roger Mills
4a. Re: Fiat Lingua: Birth of a Planet
From: David Peterson
4b. Re: Fiat Lingua: Birth of a Planet
From: Sai
5a. The Grammar of Asirka
From: Scott Hlad
5b. Re: The Grammar of Asirka
From: Michael Everson
5c. Re: The Grammar of Asirka
From: Sam Stutter
5d. Re: The Grammar of Asirka
From: Michael Everson
6. English part-of-speech word lists
From: Sai
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Lonely Planet Guides
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:45 am ((PST))
--- On Wed, 1/18/12, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> 2) more importantly, the books have a good test of
> conculture: the 25 definitive experiences they list at the
> start of each edition. I've been using this as a springboard
> to flesh out my concultures. I can't remember if this is OT
> or not, but I'll ask anyway and wait for the Stasi. Or
> alternatively, I'll ask and let it disappear :)
>
> For those of you with developed concultures, would you be
> able to compile a list of the top 25 things a tourist should
> experience while visiting?
I think there are several places in the World where I could make such
lists *and* have enough information to describe them. I'm working on a
travel guide for the Eastlands of the World, and while the sections
probably won't have 25 things to see listed, there will certainly be a
number of touristy destinations in each locale.
For example, in Auntimoany, you'll definitely want to see the Palas and
its Hanging Gardens -- the roofs were redesigned to be the home to a great
botannical wonder of the empire. Mind the gargoyles. They may bite if you
stick your hand in their mouths. Be sure to take an opera down at the House
of Opera. If you're lucky, the emperor and empress will be at the show and
you'll get to see all the quality with their finery on parade. Plus,
there's always a short concert before the show begins. Just make sure you
don't buy the bargain tickets for seats behind the imperial box -- the
empress is fond of big wigs and even bigger hats. And whatever you do,
don't clap like a boor! That's for the street-theater. Classy people carry
long thin "clacking sticks" -- usually hard wood or perhaps oliphant ivory
-- with wee hands on the end that they click together to show appreciation
for the music or the opera itself. You can visit the Diet Hall, which is
the house of government where the six houses of the Ricksthinge meet and
harangue one another incessantly. Occasionally, they manage to pass a bill
into law for the emperor's acquiescence or rejection. There is a six armed
bronze statue of Law and Order in the forcourt and the progress of bills
being discussed on the Floor can be seen by the scales she holds in each
of her hands -- if a bill is flagging, the scale tips towards the right,
if it's passing, the scale tips to the left. Within the atrium, there is a huge
wooden table where bills that don't receive sufficient support of
the Thinge are, quite literally, "tabled" until the end of session when
they are ceremoniously burned.
Take a stroll along Paribum Street, this is where the High Court, the Diet
and the Prime Minister's residence are. Very posh, very clean. Lots of
beautiful gardens and fancy nobs perambulating. Try to straighten up a bit
and wear a nice hat when out for a stroll. In Auntimoany, hats are a very
big concern, and there's a haberdasher for every need and depth of purse.
"Taller Hatte bes taller Monne" as they say. The imperial crown, actually
more of a tall slightly reverse-conical hat with jewels and silver wire
all over it, is so tall that when emperor Wantage IV commissioned an
official portrait, the artist was unable to procure a sufficiently large
canvas to include both the emperor and his hat. So, he got a smaller bit
of canvas in order to paint the upper foot or so of the hat. Just above and to
one side of the main portrait, which hangs in the great Oval Receiving Hall of
the Palas, you can still see the small painting sitting above its larger
companion, as if it were a small moon orbiting some large psychedelically
colored planet.
If you want to see how Auntimoany *really* lives, hire a kuklos to take
you downtown. Traffic's bad down that way, what with all the ox carts and
kuklos taxis and hot hound sausage mongers hawking their wares in the
middle of the street and the various trollies and caravan trains trundling
along. It's a very noisy place filled with hooting horns and drivers
yelling at each other, and washerwomen throwing out the dishwater and all
sorts of folks cursing in return. Make your way down to the Queens Park
Market -- this is one of the city's greatest bazaars. Here you can find
anything from jarred apples to replacement hookah hoses. The aromas of the
spices can be overpowering; but at least it cancels out the odors wafting
over from the Pirates Cove, the large fish market, down by the dockside.
Don't mind the polupodes, they sometimes like to come up out of the
harbor in order to buy dried saltfish. Quite the delicacy.
Feeling a bit peckish? There are all sorts of pubs and taverns where you
can tuck in for a nice meal. Try the "Rustye Bouckette Taverne", or "Der
Thrie Amazonnes" or "Ye House of the Leappyng Mermaide" or "Ye Silente
Maiden" or "My Ladye Chatterleighs Cheste". Fish and chips is a staple,
and each house has its proprietary sauces (known as kijjappes), but you
can also find a variety of stews, pies and even the latest craze, something
called a "sammidge". Lord Sam Midgey, archon of Angera, is said to have
invented the sammidge in the 1970s when out on hunts or royal park excursions
with friends. Midgey desired to offer some light refreshment for his friends
and huntstaff. His cook was loth to pack a whole kitchen full of pans and food,
so Lord Midgey bad him stuff some small loaves of bread with bits of cooked
meat. His friends loved the hand-held snacks that they could eat while ahorse,
and these first stuffed sammidges soon found their way to the eateries of the
cities around. The name stuck, however, and Lord Sam Midgey's innovation soon
proliferated into various kinds of hot and cold stuffed sammidges, plus the
sliced meat and cheese on thick sliced bread varieties.
For the bold and adventurous, keep in mind that what Auntimoany is built
upon is more Auntimoany. What this means is that there is quite of lot of
the city *under* the surface. The upper world of light and aromatic fish
markets is known as "Overwharves", while the darker, danker world below
is known as "Underwharves". This is where you'll find the folks that really
make the city go -- sail-makers, ropemongers, artificers, alchemists,
astrologers, headquarters and warehouses of the big trading Houses. This
is also where you'll find the more, ah, esoteric markets -- thaumics,
slaves, sex, those Special Things that you don't want the city guard to
catch you with. This is also where most folks live. Essentially, this is
the Original Auntimoany; the newer posher city was simply built up on top.
How's that for a start?
Padraic
> Try and tie it back to conlanging if you do answer :)
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na il cu barri"
>
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Lonely Planet Guides
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:11 am ((PST))
So Auntimoany is actually protoCoruscant. Adam
On 1/21/12, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Wed, 1/18/12, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> 2) more importantly, the books have a good test of
>> conculture: the 25 definitive experiences they list at the
>> start of each edition. I've been using this as a springboard
>> to flesh out my concultures. I can't remember if this is OT
>> or not, but I'll ask anyway and wait for the Stasi. Or
>> alternatively, I'll ask and let it disappear :)
>>
>> For those of you with developed concultures, would you be
>> able to compile a list of the top 25 things a tourist should
>> experience while visiting?
>
> I think there are several places in the World where I could make such
> lists *and* have enough information to describe them. I'm working on a
> travel guide for the Eastlands of the World, and while the sections
> probably won't have 25 things to see listed, there will certainly be a
> number of touristy destinations in each locale.
>
> For example, in Auntimoany, you'll definitely want to see the Palas and
> its Hanging Gardens -- the roofs were redesigned to be the home to a great
> botannical wonder of the empire. Mind the gargoyles. They may bite if you
> stick your hand in their mouths. Be sure to take an opera down at the House
> of Opera. If you're lucky, the emperor and empress will be at the show and
> you'll get to see all the quality with their finery on parade. Plus,
> there's always a short concert before the show begins. Just make sure you
> don't buy the bargain tickets for seats behind the imperial box -- the
> empress is fond of big wigs and even bigger hats. And whatever you do,
> don't clap like a boor! That's for the street-theater. Classy people carry
> long thin "clacking sticks" -- usually hard wood or perhaps oliphant ivory
> -- with wee hands on the end that they click together to show appreciation
> for the music or the opera itself. You can visit the Diet Hall, which is
> the house of government where the six houses of the Ricksthinge meet and
> harangue one another incessantly. Occasionally, they manage to pass a bill
> into law for the emperor's acquiescence or rejection. There is a six armed
> bronze statue of Law and Order in the forcourt and the progress of bills
> being discussed on the Floor can be seen by the scales she holds in each
> of her hands -- if a bill is flagging, the scale tips towards the right,
> if it's passing, the scale tips to the left. Within the atrium, there is a
> huge wooden table where bills that don't receive sufficient support of
> the Thinge are, quite literally, "tabled" until the end of session when
> they are ceremoniously burned.
>
> Take a stroll along Paribum Street, this is where the High Court, the Diet
> and the Prime Minister's residence are. Very posh, very clean. Lots of
> beautiful gardens and fancy nobs perambulating. Try to straighten up a bit
> and wear a nice hat when out for a stroll. In Auntimoany, hats are a very
> big concern, and there's a haberdasher for every need and depth of purse.
> "Taller Hatte bes taller Monne" as they say. The imperial crown, actually
> more of a tall slightly reverse-conical hat with jewels and silver wire
> all over it, is so tall that when emperor Wantage IV commissioned an
> official portrait, the artist was unable to procure a sufficiently large
> canvas to include both the emperor and his hat. So, he got a smaller bit
> of canvas in order to paint the upper foot or so of the hat. Just above and
> to one side of the main portrait, which hangs in the great Oval Receiving
> Hall of the Palas, you can still see the small painting sitting above its
> larger companion, as if it were a small moon orbiting some large
> psychedelically colored planet.
>
> If you want to see how Auntimoany *really* lives, hire a kuklos to take
> you downtown. Traffic's bad down that way, what with all the ox carts and
> kuklos taxis and hot hound sausage mongers hawking their wares in the
> middle of the street and the various trollies and caravan trains trundling
> along. It's a very noisy place filled with hooting horns and drivers
> yelling at each other, and washerwomen throwing out the dishwater and all
> sorts of folks cursing in return. Make your way down to the Queens Park
> Market -- this is one of the city's greatest bazaars. Here you can find
> anything from jarred apples to replacement hookah hoses. The aromas of the
> spices can be overpowering; but at least it cancels out the odors wafting
> over from the Pirates Cove, the large fish market, down by the dockside.
> Don't mind the polupodes, they sometimes like to come up out of the
> harbor in order to buy dried saltfish. Quite the delicacy.
>
> Feeling a bit peckish? There are all sorts of pubs and taverns where you
> can tuck in for a nice meal. Try the "Rustye Bouckette Taverne", or "Der
> Thrie Amazonnes" or "Ye House of the Leappyng Mermaide" or "Ye Silente
> Maiden" or "My Ladye Chatterleighs Cheste". Fish and chips is a staple,
> and each house has its proprietary sauces (known as kijjappes), but you
> can also find a variety of stews, pies and even the latest craze, something
> called a "sammidge". Lord Sam Midgey, archon of Angera, is said to have
> invented the sammidge in the 1970s when out on hunts or royal park
> excursions with friends. Midgey desired to offer some light refreshment for
> his friends and huntstaff. His cook was loth to pack a whole kitchen full of
> pans and food, so Lord Midgey bad him stuff some small loaves of bread with
> bits of cooked meat. His friends loved the hand-held snacks that they could
> eat while ahorse, and these first stuffed sammidges soon found their way to
> the eateries of the cities around. The name stuck, however, and Lord Sam
> Midgey's innovation soon proliferated into various kinds of hot and cold
> stuffed sammidges, plus the sliced meat and cheese on thick sliced bread
> varieties.
>
> For the bold and adventurous, keep in mind that what Auntimoany is built
> upon is more Auntimoany. What this means is that there is quite of lot of
> the city *under* the surface. The upper world of light and aromatic fish
> markets is known as "Overwharves", while the darker, danker world below
> is known as "Underwharves". This is where you'll find the folks that really
> make the city go -- sail-makers, ropemongers, artificers, alchemists,
> astrologers, headquarters and warehouses of the big trading Houses. This
> is also where you'll find the more, ah, esoteric markets -- thaumics,
> slaves, sex, those Special Things that you don't want the city guard to
> catch you with. This is also where most folks live. Essentially, this is
> the Original Auntimoany; the newer posher city was simply built up on top.
>
> How's that for a start?
>
> Padraic
>
>> Try and tie it back to conlanging if you do answer :)
>>
>> Sam Stutter
>> [email protected]
>> "No e na il cu barri"
>>
>
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Lonely Planet Guides
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:15 pm ((PST))
--- On Sat, 1/21/12, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> So Auntimoany is actually protoCoruscant. Adam
After a fashion, perhaps! Only not quite so glittery and certainly not
planet-sized! Gea is definitely more wild land than city. Well, the Palas
and dèfinitely the House of Opera are glittery. Your average theater can
keep several seamstresses and costume artificers in business while the
House of Opera keeps whole streets full of cloth snipping, sequin sewing
and corset weaving artificers going at it all through the night!
And also no space ships. Or at least, not yet...
Padraic
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. Fwd: This thing changed my life...
Posted by: "Douglas Treadwell" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:29 am ((PST))
<p>I couldnt keep living paycheck to paycheck this allows me to always stay a
step ahead despite the circumstances I stayed positive.<br><a
href="http://r.skowronski.eu.interia.pl/newsjournal/95DeanMiller/";>http://r.skowronski.eu.interia.pl/newsjournal/95DeanMiller/</a>
I stay on top of my game<br>imagine the possibilities.<br>ttyl.</p>
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Possession
Posted by: "John Erickson" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:55 am ((PST))
What are some ways that a language can compose a sentence indicating
possession? I've read that in Irish, the sentence "I have a book," is
composed "There is a book at me," so you don't necessarily need a verb for
"to have," but what other kinds of constructions are used in natlang and/or
conlangs?
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:02 am ((PST))
Hebrew does the same. "I have a book" is "yesh li sefer," "there is to me
a book." In ancient Hebrew, you can attach suffixes to a noun to indicate
that the object is owned -- "my book" being "book-my." In modern Hebrew, I
gather that's regarded as a bit old fashioned and poetical, so people
usually use a compound of "shel" plus the pronominal suffix: "book of.me"
In Hawai'ian, if I remember correctly, the construction for "my book" can
also be translated as "I have a book."
In Bahasa, you just append the pronoun (or pronominal suffix depending on
formality) to the end of the noun. Book I is "my book."
In Latin, you can use a possessive pronoun that modifies the noun, or in
medieval Latin, the genitive of the pronouns that do not agree with the
noun.
On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 11:55 AM, John Erickson <
[email protected]> wrote:
> What are some ways that a language can compose a sentence indicating
> possession? I've read that in Irish, the sentence "I have a book," is
> composed "There is a book at me," so you don't necessarily need a verb for
> "to have," but what other kinds of constructions are used in natlang and/or
> conlangs?
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:04 am ((PST))
On 21 January 2012 10:55, John Erickson <[email protected]> wrote:
> What are some ways that a language can compose a sentence indicating
> possession? I've read that in Irish, the sentence "I have a book," is
> composed "There is a book at me," so you don't necessarily need a verb for
> "to have," but what other kinds of constructions are used in natlang and/or
> conlangs?
Russian does the same thing. My Romantic lang uses a copular
construction with a possessive pronoun or noun phrase- approximately
"It is mine" for "I have it". I'm pretty sure there are natlangs that
dot the same thing, but which ones escape me now. And other natlangs
make use of datives in predicate positions (IIRC, Hebrew is one, but
there's a restriction on the syntactic environment where you can use
it; it might not be available for simple "I have a..." statements. I'd
have to check my theoretical syntax textbook again).
-l.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:04 am ((PST))
On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 11:55 AM, John Erickson
<[email protected]> wrote:
> What are some ways that a language can compose a sentence indicating
> possession?
We did an entire Conlangery episode about this:
http://conlangery.com/2011/11/14/conlangery-24-possession/
Though we missed some possibilities. I'll just mention a few from
that...
Navajo has two possibilities, "I have a book":
shinaaltsoos hólÇ«Ì - my-book exists
naaltsoos shee hólÇ«Ì - book with-me exists
Languages that live up the polysyntethetic end of the spectrum like
to create verbs by derivational means, so that you get something
like "I book-have."
The distinction between alienable and inalienable possession is
reasonably common in attributive possession ("my book" vs. "I have
a book"), but some languages do have different constructions even
in predicative possession, either by different verbs or different
constructions.
--
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org ⢠www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3e. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:05 am ((PST))
On 21 Jan 2012, at 17:55, John Erickson wrote:
> I've read that in Irish, the sentence "I have a book," is composed "There is
> a book at me,"
Yes, "Tá leabhar agam."
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3f. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Dale McCreery" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:14 am ((PST))
I know that in Cree there is a good set of verbs for expressing posession
of specific objects - so there would be a different way of saying "he has
a father" "he has a son" etc. - he-sons, he-fathers. then there are the
related words like "to become a father" "to give birth to a daughter".
In my conlang I did something similar, but am thinking of making several
slightly different ways of expressing possession depending on the semantic
domain.
-muskwatch
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3g. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:34 am ((PST))
On 21 January 2012 18:55, John Erickson <[email protected]>wrote:
> What are some ways that a language can compose a sentence indicating
> possession? I've read that in Irish, the sentence "I have a book," is
> composed "There is a book at me," so you don't necessarily need a verb for
> "to have," but what other kinds of constructions are used in natlang and/or
> conlangs?
>
Japanese uses a topic construction: _watashi wa hon ga aru_: "I have a
book", literally: "as for me, there is a book".
My Moten simply has a verb "to have", just like Basque which is the main
influence on that conlang :) .
WALS has a description of the various predicative possession constructions
found in natlangs. You can read it here: http://wals.info/chapter/117
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3h. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:03 am ((PST))
turkish uses the noun plus possessive suffix, followed by *var* "there is"
or *yok* "there isn't."
köpeÄim var
dog-my there.is
"i have a dog."
arabası yok
car-his/her there.isn't
"he/she doesn't have a car."
Hebrew does the same. "I have a book" is "yesh li sefer," "there is to me
> a book." In ancient Hebrew, you can attach suffixes to a noun to indicate
> that the object is owned -- "my book" being "book-my." In modern Hebrew, I
> gather that's regarded as a bit old fashioned and poetical, so people
> usually use a compound of "shel" plus the pronominal suffix: "book of.me"
>
arabic is similar, except that in classical arabic no
existential/non-existential (yesh and eyn, respectively) particle is used
with the possessive *la*- preposition (though you can use *hunaak(a)* just
to mean "there is" irrespectively of possession).
egyptian colloquial uses *feeh* for "there is" and *mafeesh* for "there
isn't" (originally a negative construction *ma*-*sh* borrowed from coptic
that circumscribes *fee*) together with the preposition plus suffix
construction. additionally, they distinguish between two prepositions for
"with/to" that indicate possession. for example, in egyptian arabic:
*ma`a-* meaning "with me now" or "on my person" or something like that:
fee ma3ak 2alam
there.is with-you.ms pen
"do you have a pen (on you)?"
*`and- *(classical *`ind*) meaning "to," expressing more permanence or
ownership:
(fee) 3andy 3arabeyya
(there.is) to-me car
"i have/own a car"
and while *mafeesh* on its own means "there isn't/aren't," the
*ma-sh*construction can actually circumscribe a preposition with
suffix, with the
same meaning:
mafeesh 3andy kalb
there.isn't to-me dog
OR
ma-3andee-sh kalb
there.isn't.to.me dog
"i don't have a dog"
cheers
matt
On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
[email protected]> wrote:
> On 21 January 2012 18:55, John Erickson <[email protected]
> >wrote:
>
> > What are some ways that a language can compose a sentence indicating
> > possession? I've read that in Irish, the sentence "I have a book," is
> > composed "There is a book at me," so you don't necessarily need a verb
> for
> > "to have," but what other kinds of constructions are used in natlang
> and/or
> > conlangs?
> >
>
> Japanese uses a topic construction: _watashi wa hon ga aru_: "I have a
> book", literally: "as for me, there is a book".
>
> My Moten simply has a verb "to have", just like Basque which is the main
> influence on that conlang :) .
>
> WALS has a description of the various predicative possession constructions
> found in natlangs. You can read it here: http://wals.info/chapter/117
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3i. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:25 pm ((PST))
From: Patrick Dunn <[email protected]>
In Bahasa, you just append the pronoun (or pronominal suffix depending on
formality) to the end of the noun. Book I is "my book."
=====================================================
There are a couple ways to say 'I have a....." in Indonesian:
1. ada buku saya 'there is my book' (intimate register ada bukuku)
2. saya punya buku 'I have a book', can also mean 'I own a book', and punya can
be further verbalized to saya mempunyai buku, same two meanings. Interestingly,
saya punya buku is the colloquial way of simply saying 'my book', especially in
Eastern Indonesia, possibly because some languages out there distinguish
alienable/inalienable
3. saya memiliki buku definitely means 'I own a book'.
Kash is not dissimilar:
1. yale etengi/mi 'there-is book-my' 'I have a book [with me, in my possession
right now]'
2. one can also say me yale etengi 'to-me there-is book' (same connotations)
3. ownership: ma/peña pando etengiyi 'I-own/have a lot of books-gen. (formally
correct; common coll. simply uses the accusative entengi)--- this can be
reversed to _etengi yu yapeña mami_ 'that book belongs to me(genitive)' --
again, formally correct, but common coll. uses the dative-- etengi yu yapeña
mame. _apeña_basically/originally meant 'be the owner/property of'
For a lot of material objects, the yale ....+poss construction can also be
amplified to mean "PRON own..." but with some exceptions: yale toyemi 'I have
money' can _only_ mean [ at the moment, in my possession]--and other items of
personal possession, like houses, livestock and cars etc.-- as it's a cultural
no-no to speak of one's wealth. If you want to say that someone else is rich,
you say e.g. _iya pendoye_ 'he is rich/wealthy' (lit. has money), yapeña sila
punayi 'he owns 3 houses' etc. Obviously the (not very productive) prefix pe-
and the verb apeña are anciently related...........
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3j. Possession
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:17 pm ((PST))
On 21.01.2012, at 18:01, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> Hebrew does the same. "I have a book" is "yesh li sefer," "there is to me
> a book." In ancient Hebrew, you can attach suffixes to a noun to indicate
> that the object is owned -- "my book" being "book-my." In modern Hebrew, I
> gather that's regarded as a bit old fashioned and poetical, so people
> usually use a compound of "shel" plus the pronominal suffix: "book of.me"
BTW: The same method of ancient Hebrew is also used in Rejistanian:
book: lejen'het
my book: lejen'het'xe
her book: lejen'het'mi
Kansu's book: lejen'het'mi Kansu
In a completely different approach, Kenshuite He Mo Gie (a project created by
me and eaten by data corruption) as communist language could not express
possession at all. As such: "Our language" (the name of the conlang) becomes
Language Which We Use.
Va'il veka ji kelda'il tera!
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3k. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:28 pm ((PST))
From: Mechthild Czapp <[email protected]>
In a completely different approach, Kenshuite He Mo Gie (a project created by
me and eaten by data corruption) as communist language could not express
possession at all. As such: "Our language" (the name of the conlang) becomes
Language Which We Use.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting. That's like the (invented auxlang) used by the communistic
inhabitants of the moon-colony is Le Guin's "The Dispossessed"-- all items are
held in common (the laundry you receive back may not necessarily be the laundry
you sent :-)))) and for e.g. "my handkerchief" you have to say "the
handkerchief that I use".
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3l. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:25 pm ((PST))
On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 16:28:48 -0800, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>From: Mechthild Czapp <[email protected]>
>
>In a completely different approach, Kenshuite He Mo Gie (a project created
by me and eaten by data corruption) as communist language could not express
possession at all. As such: "Our language" (the name of the conlang) becomes
Language Which We Use.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Interesting. That's like the (invented auxlang) used by the communistic
inhabitants of the moon-colony is Le Guin's "The Dispossessed"-- all items
are held in common (the laundry you receive back may not necessarily be the
laundry you sent :-)))) and for e.g. "my handkerchief" you have to say "the
handkerchief that I use".
Well, this all rests on the notion that the relationship that is at the
heart of genitive-type constructions (the prototype in the
cognitive-linguistics sense?) is possession = ownership. Then one imagines
that, if you are a bunch of fervid communists and you strike expression of
ownership from your language, the remnants of the genitive-type
constructions will not cohere enough to be given a morphological expression
anymore.
But I don't hold with that notion -- or, even if it has some descriptive
utility, I've never *liked* it. How on earth is it that such sundry
fundamental relationships as those exhibited in "the man's mother", "the
woman's head", "my birthplace", "the colour of the table", and so forth are
taken by speakers to be somehow metaphorical extensions of the comparatively
esoteric, highly culturally bound, relationship in "my pencil" = 'the pencil
which I have the right to usage / control / ... of'?
Myself, I'm much more inclined to think of a genitive-type construction as
underlyingly semantically empty, the least marked relationship that can hold
between this thing and that, details filled in pragmatically.
How do the KHMGites, and the dispossessed, handle all these other sorts of
ways nouns can modify nouns? With a relative clause on a different verb for
each one? Fair play to them, but that's all a bit heavy-handed, isn't it?
Sai and I have been recently talking about this cluster of relationships in
UNLWS. We're not finished but have concluded so far that for body parts &c
one uses "be a part of", and kin-terms are binary predicates so they're
taken care of. Stuff like "my shirt" = "the one I'm wearing now" will
probably be locative, "the shirt at me". There will of course be a
predicate "possess" but I'd like it if it didn't proliferate in usage too
much.
[I wish a different word were in use in linguistics than "possessive" for
this cluster of relationships as well. At that, "alienable" isn't a great
choice of word either: I can alienate someone of their hand with a knife, etc.]
Alex
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3m. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:47 pm ((PST))
On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:55:09 -0800, John Erickson
<[email protected]> wrote:
>What are some ways that a language can compose a sentence indicating
>possession? I've read that in Irish, the sentence "I have a book," is
>composed "There is a book at me," so you don't necessarily need a verb for
>"to have," but what other kinds of constructions are used in natlang and/or
>conlangs?
In Senjecas:
Alienable possession is expressed with the verb úda, possess.
I have/own three cows.
mus tír mhakéen úda:
Inalienable possession is expressed by making that which is possessed the
subject of the sentence and the possessor the indirect object with the
permanent existential verb ésa.
I have blue eyes.
móðro okwóes mùs o ésa:
A special case of alienable possession exists when the object possessed is not
ones own or has been acquired illegally by using the temporary existential
verb vúa.
I have three cows (which I have stolen).
tír mhakées mùs o vúa:
Charlie
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
3n. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:03 pm ((PST))
From: Alex Fink <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Possession
On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 16:28:48 -0800, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>Interesting. That's like the (invented auxlang) used by the communistic
inhabitants of the moon-colony in Le Guin's "The Dispossessed"-- all items
are held in common (the laundry you receive back may not necessarily be the
laundry you sent :-)))) and for e.g. "my handkerchief" you have to say "the
handkerchief that I use".
ALEX: Well, this all rests on the notion that the relationship that is at the
heart of genitive-type constructions (the prototype in the
cognitive-linguistics sense?) is possession = ownership. Then one imagines
that, if you are a bunch of fervid communists and you strike expression of
ownership from your language, the remnants of the genitive-type
constructions will not cohere enough to be given a morphological expression
anymore.
But I don't hold with that notion -- or, even if it has some descriptive
utility, I've never *liked* it. How on earth is it that such sundry
fundamental relationships as those exhibited in "the man's mother", "the
woman's head", "my birthplace", "the colour of the table", and so forth
How do the KHMGites, and the dispossessed, handle all these other sorts of
ways nouns can modify nouns? With a relative clause on a different verb for
each one? Fair play to them, but that's all a bit heavy-handed, isn't it?
===================================================
RM Unfortunately I don't recall; actually I'm not sure Le Guin ever got into
such relationships as "my mother" or "my head". IIRC the language didn't even
have personal possessive adjectives. Of course in her conculture, children are
raised communally and IIRC have little further contact with their parents. I
suppose one could say "the woman who gave birth to me" or "the boy I gave birth
to"; and I suppose one could go to the doctor and say "the head hurts" but it
_is_ getting awkward............;-))))
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: Fiat Lingua: Birth of a Planet
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:06 pm ((PST))
Small update: If anyone went and tried to comment on the post (or ever went to
try to comment on *any* Fiat Lingua post at any time in the history of its
existence), you probably got an error message, resulting in the comment not
being posted. That problem has been fixed. :)
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
On Jan 21, 2012, at 3:20 AM, David Peterson wrote:
> I meant to write this quite a while ago (the article debuted on the first),
> but things always keep coming up.
>
> Roger Mills wrote an article for Fiat Lingua [*] that's basically his
> conlanging story [*]: how he came to invent languages, and how he created his
> conworld, Cindu [*]. It's a great read, and there's a lot in it that, I
> think, will remind any conlanger of their own story.
>
> To that end, I think Fiat Lingua is a good place to house conlanger origin
> narratives. It's not a venue that's much bigger than a personal blog, but
> it's central, and slightly more formal than the average blog (we work pretty
> much exclusively with .pdf's, so authors can take more time with formatting,
> etc.). When we get enough content to put out print anthologies, I think it'd
> be neat to put one together that consists entirely of personal narratives by
> conlangers about how they came to create languages. (And even if the general
> public isn't so much interested in hearing about conlangs, there might be a
> wider audience for origin stories like these.)
>
> If you're interested, you can send an e-mail (or a file) to
> [email protected]. Just an idea I thought I'd throw out there. :) Happy
> conlanging.
>
> [*] http://fiatlingua.org/
>
> [*] http://fiatlingua.org/?p=112
>
> [*] http://cinduworld.tripod.com/contents.htm
>
> David Peterson
> LCS President
> [email protected]
> www.conlang.org
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Fiat Lingua: Birth of a Planet
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:08 pm ((PST))
\o/ it finally being out! Congrats.
It's nice to see this platform for slightly more formal writing start
up (especially since I know we actually have more than enough content
to sustain it ^^). I for one am looking forward to seeing the rest of
the issues, and seeing what new entries people contribute. It'll add
do the spectrum of discussion.
Also, definitely agreed re having an anthology of narratives if we
can. They make for a great bridge between internal and external
perspectives on conlanging, and a more personal touch.
Actually, one of the most memorable interviews we did for the LCS
Podcast, for me, was talking with Tony Harris
(http://podcast.conlang.org/2009/03/interview-with-tony-harris/), in
large part because of this same feeling. Even though I'm more or less
strictly an engelanger myself, interested in making things relatively
distant from Alurhsa, I found his story rather fascinating â
especially with the extent to which it tied in to his spiritual
worldview. It's a side of conlanging that ironically we don't often
see discussed much in the usual fora, because it's just so implicit
and often personal. But IME at least, asking people directly about it
has led to some very interesting conversations.
(We should totally do more of those interviews, if we could find
someone to edit themâ¦)
BTW, speaking of cool new discussion platforms and podcasts, in case
y'all haven't been following it, George Corley's
conlangery.conlang.org podcast is going strong and discussing a wide
variety of interesting topics. You can also follow him on G+ @
https://plus.google.com/100958931357108475456 &
https://plus.google.com/112098875360611471131 . Go listen. ;-)
- Sai
On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 06:20, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
> I meant to write this quite a while ago (the article debuted on the first),
> but things always keep coming up.
>
> Roger Mills wrote an article for Fiat Lingua [*] that's basically his
> conlanging story [*]: how he came to invent languages, and how he created his
> conworld, Cindu [*]. It's a great read, and there's a lot in it that, I
> think, will remind any conlanger of their own story.
>
> To that end, I think Fiat Lingua is a good place to house conlanger origin
> narratives. It's not a venue that's much bigger than a personal blog, but
> it's central, and slightly more formal than the average blog (we work pretty
> much exclusively with .pdf's, so authors can take more time with formatting,
> etc.). When we get enough content to put out print anthologies, I think it'd
> be neat to put one together that consists entirely of personal narratives by
> conlangers about how they came to create languages. (And even if the general
> public isn't so much interested in hearing about conlangs, there might be a
> wider audience for origin stories like these.)
>
> If you're interested, you can send an e-mail (or a file) to
> [email protected]. Just an idea I thought I'd throw out there. :) Happy
> conlanging.
>
> [*] http://fiatlingua.org/
>
> [*] http://fiatlingua.org/?p=112
>
> [*] http://cinduworld.tripod.com/contents.htm
>
> David Peterson
> LCS President
> [email protected]
> www.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. The Grammar of Asirka
Posted by: "Scott Hlad" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:07 pm ((PST))
The grammar of my new conlang, Asirka, is nearing its completion. There is
much more to go into the introduction. I have the outline all in place but a
few sections, such as clauses, haven't been written yet. The link below will
open the pdf document of the grammar. I'm wondering what sections may be
missing.
Thanks,
Scotto
http://www3.telus.net/scotto/rumansa/TheGrammarOfAsirka.pdf
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: The Grammar of Asirka
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:02 am ((PST))
On 22 Jan 2012, at 07:11, Scott Hlad wrote:
> http://www3.telus.net/scotto/rumansa/TheGrammarOfAsirka.pdf
Why the terms "hard" and "soft" for the consonants? [ɾ] and [l] are very
similar? I see that you have spelling rules regarding these, but how is [x]
hard and other voiceless fricatives like [Ê] an [θ] soft? I'm not sure the
terminology is convincing. In Slavic "soft" is often used for "palatalized"; in
Irish "slender" is used.
In general I would find the look of the language more convincing if you got
beyond ASCII. ch, dh, kh, nh, sh, th, zh could all be ÄÄ ÄÄ êê/Ḱḱ
ÅÅ ÅŠŦŧ Źź for instance.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: The Grammar of Asirka
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:35 am ((PST))
On 22 Jan 2012, at 10:02, Michael Everson <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2012, at 07:11, Scott Hlad wrote:
>
>> http://www3.telus.net/scotto/rumansa/TheGrammarOfAsirka.pdf
>
> Why the terms "hard" and "soft" for the consonants? [ɾ] and [l] are very
> similar? I see that you have spelling rules regarding these, but how is [x]
> hard and other voiceless fricatives like [Ê] an [θ] soft? I'm not sure the
> terminology is convincing. In Slavic "soft" is often used for "palatalized";
> in Irish "slender" is used.
Front vs back?
>
> In general I would find the look of the language more convincing if you got
> beyond ASCII. ch, dh, kh, nh, sh, th, zh could all be ÄÄ ÄÄ êê/Ḱḱ
> ÅÅ ÅŠŦŧ Źź for instance.
Now, I happen to rather like ASCII comparability (I think too many accents are
fiddly) *but* I would agree that stuff like:
ch = Ä
sh = Å¡
zh = ž
I think a caron is more "Eastern-European-ish" than acute although I don't know
what to suggest for d k n and t, although I'm sure you can get carons for them.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na il cu barri"
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5d. Re: The Grammar of Asirka
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:17 am ((PST))
On 22 Jan 2012, at 10:35, Sam Stutter wrote:
>> In general I would find the look of the language more convincing if you got
>> beyond ASCII. ch, dh, kh, nh, sh, th, zh could all be ÄÄ ÄÄ
>> êê/Ḱḱ ÅÅ ÅŠŦŧ Źź for instance.
>
> Now, I happen to rather like ASCII comparability (I think too many accents
> are fiddly) *but* I would agree that stuff like:
>
> ch = Ä
> sh = Å¡
> zh = ž
>
> I think a caron is more "Eastern-European-ish" than acute
Polish uses Ä Å Å Åº.
> although I don't know what to suggest for d k n and t, although I'm sure you
> can get carons for them.
In Czech the caron is replaced by the apostrophe for d and t: ÄÄ Ç¨Ç© ÅÅ
Ťť
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6. English part-of-speech word lists
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:38 am ((PST))
I mentioned a little while ago that Alex & I are working on a thing to
translate IPs (and Tor .onion URLs) into memorable English phrases.
To do this, we need word lists that fit a somewhat unusual set of
criteria. Namely, the words need to be:
* divided into several lists, by possible ~functional role / part of
speech (plain noun, adj, adv, vt, vi, vbitrans, proper noun, etc)
* unique across lists â eg zero-derivable words like 'terminal' or
'read' are OK, but they can only be used in one list
* unique across synonyms, homophones, and homographs
* tagged/sorted by usage frequency
* *at minimum* common enough that the majority of fluent English
speakers will know the word without looking it up or being in any way
confused
* easy to spell and speak
Ideally, we should have a total dictionary size on the order of
~16-32k words, but the above requirements are absolutes, and are the
real constraints in this puzzle.
WordNet is one obvious source (though the current version isn't
available for download); any others?
Anyone interested in helping compile this? They could potentially be
useful for other purposes as well, of course.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (1)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
