There are 14 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Custom sort orders (was: Re: The Grammar of Asirka)
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
2a. Re: Verbs for Aspects
From: David McCann
3a. Re: The Grammar of Asirka
From: Billy JB
4a. Re: Possession
From: John Erickson
4b. Re: Possession
From: Adam Walker
5a. Curious verb construction
From: Ian Spolarich
5b. Re: Curious verb construction
From: MorphemeAddict
5c. Re: Curious verb construction
From: Scott Hlad
5d. Re: Curious verb construction
From: Nikolay Ivankov
5e. Re: Curious verb construction
From: Nikolay Ivankov
5f. Re: Curious verb construction
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
5g. Re: Curious verb construction
From: Njenfalgar
5h. Re: Curious verb construction
From: Arnt Richard Johansen
5i. Re: Curious verb construction
From: Sam Stutter
Messages
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1a. Re: Custom sort orders (was: Re: The Grammar of Asirka)
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" [email protected]
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:54 am ((PST))
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 23 January 2012 08:47, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> And I'm still to find out of the box sorting for
>> transliterated/Latinized Indic and Tibetan, or even for
>> Old Norse with _œ, ǫ_, so it definitely has a use for
>> natlangs too!
>>
>>
> Toolbox (and I hope other dictionary-making programs too) is very good at
> allowing one to define their own sort orders. I was very glad for that
> since in Moten, |l, |n, |s and |z are separate letters that sorts after
> l,n, s and z respectively :) . The ability to define sorts with arbitrary
> characters was more than welcome.
I mention my own hack in this post:
http://www.terjemar.net/php/2011/10/character-sets-collations-and-sort-orders-oh-my/
-S
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
Messages in this topic (14)
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2a. Re: Verbs for Aspects
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:38 am ((PST))
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:00:52 -0800
Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> semelfactive
> I took it to mean something done one time: semel = once.
Yes. For example, in Russian you get kašljat′ "to cough" and
the semelfactive (odnokratnyj) derivative kašljanut′ "to give a cough".
Hungarian has contrasts like zörög "to knock, be knocking" and zörren
"to knock once".
Messages in this topic (25)
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3a. Re: The Grammar of Asirka
Posted by: "Billy JB" [email protected]
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:02 am ((PST))
For typing ć č ç ċ I use the alt-latin keyboard layout, it works for me and
uses US English as the base layout.
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 4:47 AM, Scott Hlad <[email protected]> wrote:
> Wow, the response has been overwhelming. Thanks you to everyone. I'll
> respond to everyone on this post.
>
> 1) I have corrected Morphology to Phonology thanks!
> 2) I went back and forth in my mind as to whether to have diacritics on sh,
> ch etc. I use Access for my dictionary database but in a table those
> diacritics don't display correctly. Typing them on a US English keyboard is
> difficult. I have never explored another dictionary program although I know
> that we recently had a long conversation on line. I could use Excel but I
> have the same problem with the diacritics.
> 3) Hard /soft /ambiguous consonants. This discussion is sadly over my head
> a
> bit, though I'm fascinated by it. I have more reading to do.
> 4) Kriesheliezh: As to _kr_ not being permitted. I use c to mean a single
> consonant, a digraph, or a combination such as kr, sp, etc. And you were
> correct with the word. It should be krieshelliezh. Thanks
> 5) It was suggested that I have a long way to go on syntax. What am I
> missing?
> Scotto
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Alex Fink
> Sent: January 22, 2012 7:51 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: The Grammar of Asirka
>
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:02:26 +0000, Michael Everson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >On 22 Jan 2012, at 07:11, Scott Hlad wrote:
> >
> >> http://www3.telus.net/scotto/rumansa/TheGrammarOfAsirka.pdf
> >
> >Why the terms "hard" and "soft" for the consonants? [4] and [l] are very
> similar? I see that you have spelling rules regarding these, but how is [x]
> hard and other voiceless fricatives like [S] an [T] soft? I'm not sure the
> terminology is convincing. In Slavic "soft" is often used for
> "palatalized";
> in Irish "slender" is used.
>
> I was going to ask about this too. Your hard/sort/ambiguous split comes
> close to having the feel of a split into _historically_
> unpalatalised/palatalised/palatalisation-neutral, or a variant thereof.
> Affricates and [S Z] etc. are the sort of stuff palatalisation likes to
> produce; [4] resisting palatalisation is common, and [l] being exclusively
> soft could work too (maybe there was a Polish-type historical [l l_j] > [5
> l(_j)] > [w l] > [0 l] or [v l]). And maybe palatalisation never took hold
> on labials, or maybe they are a separate class due to another sound change.
> But the fricatives all being soft is a little harder to motivate: I'd
> expect at least one more set to be hard, so that maybe e.g. [T s] [x S] are
> hard/soft pairs, paralleling [t ts)] [k tS)] (and then [D z] [d z] [g Z] I
> guess, with *voiced affricates having decayed to fricatives). And the
> nasals are entirely out of line! [m n] palatal but [J] not?! I'd expect
> [n] hard [J] soft [m] neutral.
>
> We should also look at the alternations they condition. If the grounds for
> the division is historically unpal'd/pal'd/labial, then one would expect
> the
> corresponding vowels to have been historically front/nonfront/neutral, or
> maybe front/nonfront/(back) rounded. The latter works well for your
> perfective alternation if /y/ were once [1] or so. It's stranger for the
> irrealis alternation; one expects /o/ and /a/ to be swapped. So maybe
> there
> was also a historical sound change exchanging [o] and [a]. Or maybe the
> soft alternant being <ei> and not <e> is a sign that the original sound was
> a diphthong and that explains the weird developments...?
>
> For the vowels for which you have listed tense and lax values, what is it
> that determines which value is used in a given word? And why is it that
> only /e i o/ have this alternation? I'd expect at least /2/ to as well.
> Perhaps also /y u/, but perhaps not if the reason /i/ does relates to the
> fact that <ie> is always /I/ (but was that supposed to be /i/? you wrote a
> literal capital <I>).
>
> In the word _kriesheliezh_, there seems to be an onset cluster _kr-_ which
> you have not permitted, and I also thought your syllabification rules would
> place the /l/ like -she-liezh, not -shel-iezh.
>
> What else? I'm amused by your enumeration of excreta (a gender system
> could
> very well do that, yeah!).
> I like the forms you've chosen for the various inanimate/animate contrasts,
> they're nicely half-patterned and redolent of shortenings of something
> earlier more regular.
>
> You've got a lot of prepositions with very neat circumscribed senses; it is
> normal for the way prepositions divide up senses to be messy (why is it "in
> a car" but "on a bus"? is it _na Ukraine_ or _v Ukraine_? ...).
>
> And it looks like you've got a long way to go on syntax, yet.
>
> Alex
>
Messages in this topic (14)
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4a. Re: Possession
Posted by: "John Erickson" [email protected]
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:05 pm ((PST))
Thanks for all the information. Here's what I decided to do with FairyLang:
http://fairylang.livejournal.com/20970.html
In short, I've made a preposition pa/pe/bu/bo (agrees with noun in gender) that
indicates a possession. In context it looks like this:
Ni myn bu mysu.
Is me have cat.
I have a cat. / I am becatted.
Messages in this topic (16)
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4b. Re: Possession
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:54 pm ((PST))
Becatted? Magnificent word! Adam
On 1/23/12, John Erickson <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks for all the information. Here's what I decided to do with FairyLang:
>
> http://fairylang.livejournal.com/20970.html
>
> In short, I've made a preposition pa/pe/bu/bo (agrees with noun in gender)
> that
> indicates a possession. In context it looks like this:
>
> Ni myn bu mysu.
> Is me have cat.
> I have a cat. / I am becatted.
>
Messages in this topic (16)
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5a. Curious verb construction
Posted by: "Ian Spolarich" [email protected]
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:48 pm ((PST))
While working on a conlang of mine in which there is no future or present
and only a nonpast tense, I was considering all of the meanings a sentence
such as sing.NPST.1sg could have--I sing, I will sing, I am singing, etc.
At this point, I came across the construction "I am to sing." This is a
curious construction, I think, and it appears occasionally in things like
"he is to speak at the benefit," or something. So I was wondering, how do
your conlangs handle this? I was thinking of using the imperative mood--but
that wouldn't really work. Probably a helping verb would do the trick, as
essentially what you say is "I have to sing" with a slightly different
connotation.
Cheers,
-Ian
Also--what is the technical term for this construction?
Messages in this topic (9)
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5b. Re: Curious verb construction
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:45 pm ((PST))
To paraphrase your example:
He is expected/required to speak at the benefit.
Any light?
stevo
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:48 PM, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]>wrote:
> While working on a conlang of mine in which there is no future or present
> and only a nonpast tense, I was considering all of the meanings a sentence
> such as sing.NPST.1sg could have--I sing, I will sing, I am singing, etc.
> At this point, I came across the construction "I am to sing." This is a
> curious construction, I think, and it appears occasionally in things like
> "he is to speak at the benefit," or something. So I was wondering, how do
> your conlangs handle this? I was thinking of using the imperative mood--but
> that wouldn't really work. Probably a helping verb would do the trick, as
> essentially what you say is "I have to sing" with a slightly different
> connotation.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Ian
>
> Also--what is the technical term for this construction?
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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5c. Re: Curious verb construction
Posted by: "Scott Hlad" [email protected]
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:50 pm ((PST))
He will be speaking / He will speak
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of MorphemeAddict
Sent: January 23, 2012 10:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Curious verb construction
To paraphrase your example:
He is expected/required to speak at the benefit.
Any light?
stevo
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:48 PM, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]>wrote:
> While working on a conlang of mine in which there is no future or present
> and only a nonpast tense, I was considering all of the meanings a sentence
> such as sing.NPST.1sg could have--I sing, I will sing, I am singing, etc.
> At this point, I came across the construction "I am to sing." This is a
> curious construction, I think, and it appears occasionally in things like
> "he is to speak at the benefit," or something. So I was wondering, how do
> your conlangs handle this? I was thinking of using the imperative mood--but
> that wouldn't really work. Probably a helping verb would do the trick, as
> essentially what you say is "I have to sing" with a slightly different
> connotation.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Ian
>
> Also--what is the technical term for this construction?
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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5d. Re: Curious verb construction
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:53 pm ((PST))
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 5:48 AM, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
> While working on a conlang of mine in which there is no future or present
> and only a nonpast tense, I was considering all of the meanings a sentence
> such as sing.NPST.1sg could have--I sing, I will sing, I am singing, etc.
> At this point, I came across the construction "I am to sing." This is a
> curious construction, I think, and it appears occasionally in things like
> "he is to speak at the benefit," or something. So I was wondering, how do
> your conlangs handle this? I was thinking of using the imperative mood--but
> that wouldn't really work. Probably a helping verb would do the trick, as
> essentially what you say is "I have to sing" with a slightly different
> connotation.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Ian
>
> Also--what is the technical term for this construction?
>
In most cases it is indeed a verb. Cf.
Le hay cantar.
in Spanish. Here _hay_ is an auxiliary verb "haber", which used to mean "to
have", but is only used now as an auxiliary. It may be translated as
something like "There is a need to go for him"
In Russian one should say:
Yemu nado pet' = He.DAT nado sing.INF
Here "nado" is an adverb used nearly solely for the purpose that someone
has to do something.
Messages in this topic (9)
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5e. Re: Curious verb construction
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:59 pm ((PST))
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 5:48 AM, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> While working on a conlang of mine in which there is no future or present
>> and only a nonpast tense, I was considering all of the meanings a sentence
>> such as sing.NPST.1sg could have--I sing, I will sing, I am singing, etc.
>> At this point, I came across the construction "I am to sing." This is a
>> curious construction, I think, and it appears occasionally in things like
>> "he is to speak at the benefit," or something. So I was wondering, how do
>> your conlangs handle this? I was thinking of using the imperative
>> mood--but
>> that wouldn't really work. Probably a helping verb would do the trick, as
>> essentially what you say is "I have to sing" with a slightly different
>> connotation.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -Ian
>>
>> Also--what is the technical term for this construction?
>>
>
>
> In most cases it is indeed a verb. Cf.
>
> Le hay cantar.
>
Sorry, "hay" -> "hay que".
Or maybe I'm mistaken again... I haven't spoken the language for quite a
while.
> in Spanish. Here _hay_ is an auxiliary verb "haber", which used to mean
> "to have", but is only used now as an auxiliary. It may be translated as
> something like "There is a need to go for him"
>
> In Russian one should say:
>
> Yemu nado pet' = He.DAT nado sing.INF
>
> Here "nado" is an adverb used nearly solely for the purpose that someone
> has to do something.
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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5f. Re: Curious verb construction
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:57 pm ((PST))
On 24 January 2012 05:48, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
> While working on a conlang of mine in which there is no future or present
> and only a nonpast tense, I was considering all of the meanings a sentence
> such as sing.NPST.1sg could have--I sing, I will sing, I am singing, etc.
> At this point, I came across the construction "I am to sing." This is a
> curious construction, I think, and it appears occasionally in things like
> "he is to speak at the benefit," or something. So I was wondering, how do
> your conlangs handle this? I was thinking of using the imperative mood--but
> that wouldn't really work. Probably a helping verb would do the trick, as
> essentially what you say is "I have to sing" with a slightly different
> connotation.
>
>
As stevo wrote, this construction has two connotations: obligation and
expectation. My Moten has two different constructions to handle those:
- Obligation is handled with the strong situational modality: _|Lezvuj
ito_: (I) have to sing/(I) must sing.
- Expectation is handled with the prospective aspect: _|Lezdu|n ige_: (I)
will sing/(I) am going to sing (with a connotation of: "the consequence of
the current situation is that I will sing").
The first version implies some form of coercion (even if it's internal),
while the second focusses only on what the current situation will lead to.
>
> Also--what is the technical term for this construction?
>
I guess you could use my terminology, although it might not be 100%
standard, and use a different technical term for the different connotations
of the construction.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (9)
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5g. Re: Curious verb construction
Posted by: "Njenfalgar" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:11 am ((PST))
2012/1/24 Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]
> >wrote:
> >
> > In most cases it is indeed a verb. Cf.
> >
> > Le hay cantar.
> >
>
> Sorry, "hay" -> "hay que".
>
> Or maybe I'm mistaken again... I haven't spoken the language for quite a
> while.
>
No, either it is "Tiene que cantar" ("He has to sing"), which is the normal
way to say it, or else "Ha de cantar", which is, I've been told, the same
but more formal/literary. I think I would express "He is to sing tomorrow"
just with "Canta mañana", "He sings tomorrow". I don't know any language
apart from English where I wouldn't use a stupid present tense there...
> in Spanish. Here _hay_ is an auxiliary verb "haber", which used to mean
> > "to have", but is only used now as an auxiliary. It may be translated as
> > something like "There is a need to go for him"
>
"Hay" is actually a contraction of "ha" (which comes, indeed, from "haber")
with the locative particle that survives in French as "y" and in Catalan as
"hi". The full "hay" corresponds etymologically with French "il y a" and
with Catalan "hi ha", but the Spanish have reversed the order of the two
words.
Greets,
David
--
Dos ony tãsnonnop, koták ony tãsnonnop.
http://njenfalgar.conlang.org/ <http://njenfalgar.4shared.com/>
Messages in this topic (9)
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5h. Re: Curious verb construction
Posted by: "Arnt Richard Johansen" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:20 am ((PST))
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:48:40PM -0600, Ian Spolarich wrote:
> While working on a conlang of mine in which there is no future or present
> and only a nonpast tense,
Wait. How does this work? What is the difference between having one tense and
having no tense at all? How are past events referred to in this language?
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
This program posts news to billions of machines throughout the galaxy.
Your message will cost the net enough to bankrupt your entire planet.
As a result your species will be sold into slavery. Be sure you know
what you are doing. Are you absolutely sure you want to do this? [yn] y
Messages in this topic (9)
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5i. Re: Curious verb construction
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:35 am ((PST))
On 24 Jan 2012, at 10:20, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:48:40PM -0600, Ian Spolarich wrote:
>> While working on a conlang of mine in which there is no future or present
>> and only a nonpast tense,
>
> Wait. How does this work? What is the difference between having one tense and
> having no tense at all? How are past events referred to in this language?
Technically, this is what English does (although I'm sure this is likely to
provoke discussion) :)
I shovel
I shovelled
I will shovel
I'm assuming Ian means: it has a past tense and a non-past tense and does not
have a future or present tense.
>> Also--what is the technical term for this construction?
I'm fairly certain it's some sort of aspect. For me, at least, the meaning is
very similar to the construction "be set to".
"He is to perform at the Bishop's Palace"
"He is set to perform at the Bishop's Palace"
"He is to be put to death"
"He is set to be put to death"
The assumption here is a sense of *fate*, that someone else has made the
decision for the subject. Now, this is all supposition, but could it be argued
that this is the real futurity in English? Does "I will do" have any basis in
"willing", in which case meaning "I intend to do"? With "is to do" occurring
more regularly in older texts, is it possible that the succession of "I will
do" has happened "recently"?
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na il cu barri"
Messages in this topic (9)
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