There are 4 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Pronouns (Was: Curious verb construction)
From: George Corley
1b. Re: Pronouns (Was: Curious verb construction)
From: Padraic Brown
1c. Re: Pronouns (Was: Curious verb construction)
From: Charles W Brickner
1d. Re: Pronouns (Was: Curious verb construction)
From: Padraic Brown
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Pronouns (Was: Curious verb construction)
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:40 pm ((PST))
Oh, wait, nevermind. In "Who are you?" -- "Who" is the direct object --
"you" the subject. Normally "who" takes third person singular.
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 12:39 AM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Are" can be third person -- it just so happens to be first and second as
> well. We still say "this is" and "that is".
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 12:32 AM, Luke Fleischman <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> Although, if 'who' were being treated as a third person pronoun,
>> wouldn't it be "Who is you?" and "Who is I?", which it obviously
>> isn't?
>>
>> --Loki
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 20:39, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > No, those examples are no different from "he is you" or "Are you my
>> mother?"
>> >
>> > The person of the predicate noun has nothing to do with the person of
>> the
>> > subject or verb.
>> >
>> > stevo (JMO=just my opinion)
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Charlie Brickner <
>> > [email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:30:17 -0500, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >...interrogative pronouns (who/what) are third person.
>> >>
>> >> Wouldn't questions like "Who are you?" and "Who am I?" show that "who"
>> can
>> >> also be first and second person?
>> >>
>> >> Charlie
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ȝyxw59
>>
>
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Pronouns (Was: Curious verb construction)
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:35 am ((PST))
--- On Fri, 1/27/12, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> > "This" and "that" would be demonstrative pronouns
> ("that" is also one of
> > the relative pronouns available in English). "Who" can
> be an interrogative
> > pronoun or a relative pronoun. None of these
> would be associated with a
> > grammatical person, if that's what you're asking.
> >
>
> I would say that the demonstrative pronouns (this/these,
> that/those),
> possessive pronouns (mine, yours, etc.), and interrogative
> pronouns
> (who/what) are third person.
Really depends entirely on who is being referred to:
Our Father who art in heaven. "Who" is not third person.
I am the one that wrote the story. "That" is not third person.
Who are you? / What am I? Not third person.
Padraic
> stevo
>
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hmm... It seems as though I missed the majority of
> the conversation in my
> > > inbox.
> > >
> > > Anyway, thanks for the responses. As for whoever
> asked how it was
> > possible
> > > to not have tenses and a nonpast tense, what I
> meant was that the conlang
> > > has a nonpast tense and a past tense, and has
> numerous other
> > > particles/constructions to convey other tenses.
> > >
> > > Also, how does one classify words like "that,"
> "who," "this," et cetera.
> > > I've heard of them as pronouns, but what forms are
> they? (i.e. "my" is
> > the
> > > 'possessive' form of "I")
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Pronouns (Was: Curious verb construction)
Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:40 am ((PST))
Does the verb "to be" take a direct object? And if it is the direct object
wouldn't we be able to say also "Whom are you?"
Charlie
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of George Corley
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Pronouns (Was: Curious verb construction)
Oh, wait, nevermind. In "Who are you?" -- "Who" is the direct object -- "you"
the subject. Normally "who" takes third person singular.
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 12:39 AM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Are" can be third person -- it just so happens to be first and second
> as well. We still say "this is" and "that is".
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 12:32 AM, Luke Fleischman <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> Although, if 'who' were being treated as a third person pronoun,
>> wouldn't it be "Who is you?" and "Who is I?", which it obviously
>> isn't?
>>
>> --Loki
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 20:39, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > No, those examples are no different from "he is you" or "Are you my
>> mother?"
>> >
>> > The person of the predicate noun has nothing to do with the person
>> > of
>> the
>> > subject or verb.
>> >
>> > stevo (JMO=just my opinion)
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Charlie Brickner <
>> > [email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:30:17 -0500, MorphemeAddict
>> >> <[email protected]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >...interrogative pronouns (who/what) are third person.
>> >>
>> >> Wouldn't questions like "Who are you?" and "Who am I?" show that "who"
>> can
>> >> also be first and second person?
>> >>
>> >> Charlie
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ȝyxw59
>>
>
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Pronouns (Was: Curious verb construction)
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:33 am ((PST))
--- On Sat, 1/28/12, Charles W Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
> Does the verb "to be" take a direct object?
No. It shows equation between what's on either side. The sentence "Charlie is a
conlanger" demonstrates the fundamental identity of "Charlie" with
the actions of a conlanger. Be establishes facts and shows the relationship
between a fact and the thing about which the fact is said.
When "be" is used in a question, the fact is unknown, but the same identity
and relationships are expressed. In this case, the asker is simply querying
about this relationship. So, "who is Charlie" simply asks to connect a
known piece of information with an unknown. "Charlie" is a known name, but
"who" expresses an unknown person about whom the name is applied.
So far these sentences all express "third person" -- two people are talking
about a third person who is (in all likelihood) not present at the time.
Now we change the mode of address so that two people talking are now asking
questions about each other: "who are you?" The equation is still the same,
but now the person has changed. The grammatical person is now "second"
and so the unknown quantity "who" shifts with it, because of its identity
with the subject. "Who is he" = third person; "Who are you" = second
person; "Who am I" = first person.
If you use a different verb -- one that can take a direct object -- *then*
you find "whom". "Whom do you want?" "To whom did you give the book?" "I
just don't know whom to trust" In all these cases, the verbs are taking
an interrogative pronoun as their direct or indirect objects. The objects
are thus marked (in elevated speech) with -m.
This is what you get when your language doesn't have distinct 1st, 2nd and
3rd person interrogative / relative / demonstrative pronouns. In English,
and I suspect many other languages as well, we just have the one form.
Now go forth and conlang!
Padraic
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]]
> On Behalf Of George Corley
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:41 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Pronouns (Was: Curious verb construction)
>
> Oh, wait, nevermind. In "Who are you?" -- "Who" is the
> direct object -- "you" the subject. Normally "who"
> takes third person singular.
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 12:39 AM, George Corley <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > "Are" can be third person -- it just so happens to be
> first and second
> > as well. We still say "this is" and "that is".
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 12:32 AM, Luke Fleischman
> <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> >> Although, if 'who' were being treated as a third
> person pronoun,
> >> wouldn't it be "Who is you?" and "Who is I?", which
> it obviously
> >> isn't?
> >>
> >> --Loki
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 20:39, MorphemeAddict
> <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >> > No, those examples are no different from "he
> is you" or "Are you my
> >> mother?"
> >> >
> >> > The person of the predicate noun has nothing
> to do with the person
> >> > of
> >> the
> >> > subject or verb.
> >> >
> >> > stevo (JMO=just my opinion)
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Charlie
> Brickner <
> >> > [email protected]>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:30:17 -0500,
> MorphemeAddict
> >> >> <[email protected]>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >...interrogative pronouns (who/what)
> are third person.
> >> >>
> >> >> Wouldn't questions like "Who are you?" and
> "Who am I?" show that "who"
> >> can
> >> >> also be first and second person?
> >> >>
> >> >> Charlie
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ȝyxw59
> >>
> >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (12)
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