There are 18 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Outdoors
From: MorphemeAddict
1.2. Re: Outdoors
From: Nikolay Ivankov
1.3. Re: Outdoors
From: Toms Deimonds Barvidis
1.4. Re: Outdoors
From: Nikolay Ivankov
1.5. Re: Outdoors
From: MorphemeAddict
1.6. Re: Outdoors
From: Toms Deimonds Barvidis
2a. NATLANG: English Help
From: Brian Woodward
2b. Re: NATLANG: English Help
From: Tony Harris
2c. Re: NATLANG: English Help
From: Gary Shannon
2d. Re: NATLANG: English Help
From: Tony Harris
2e. Re: NATLANG: English Help
From: Brian Woodward
3. Phonology Phrustration and Uzbek
From: Eamon Graham
4a. Coining New Words in Language Families
From: J. M. DeSantis
4b. Re: Coining New Words in Language Families
From: Padraic Brown
4c. Re: Coining New Words in Language Families
From: Matthew Turnbull
4d. Re: Coining New Words in Language Families
From: Roger Mills
4e. Re: Coining New Words in Language Families
From: Charlie Brickner
5. Fwd: [CONLANG] Coining New Words in Language Families
From: Patrick Dunn
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:37 am ((PST))
Toms,
Thanks. That clarifies a lot.
stevo
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Toms Deimonds Barvidis
<[email protected]>wrote:
> This issue seams to be already solved before I, a native Latvian speaker,
> had seen the thread :D
>
> Anyway, "ārā" is indeed a locative from an earlier "ārs", meaning "the
> outdoors", most definitely related to "āre", an
> open, cultivated land, thus probably also with "art" (to plough) and
> "arkls" (a plough), as well as Latin "arō" and
> English "ear" (not the body part, of course), I suppose.
>
> Nowadays it's usually perceived as an adverb, not a declined form of any
> noun, since "ārs" has fallen out of usage
> in this meaning; "ārs" is now used to mean an are, 100 square meters.
>
> "Laukā" is also a locative from "lauks", a field.
>
> The opposite concept "inside" is usually "iekšā"; seems like another
> locative. Some related words are "iekšas"
> (intestine) and "iekš", an archaic preposition meaning "in", usually used
> mocking the way Baltic Germans spoke
> Latvian and more increasingly with loaned words that can't be declined,
> though I find this rather ugly.
>
> Citējot "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>:
> > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:04 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]
> >>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> In Russian one uses "na ulitse" (on the street) or "na dvore" (in the
> >> yard)
> >>> for outdoors, sometimes also "za oknom" (beyond the window). In Latvian
> >> it
> >>> is either arā (outside) or laukā "in the field".
> >>>
> >>
> >> "Arā" looks like a locative. What is the nominative and what does it
> mean?
> >>
> >
> > For me too, but I'm no champion it Latvian. There is no "aris" or "arus"
> > in the dictionalry, and the only meaning of "ars" is 100m2. Thuogh there
> > are particles "ar"="with" and "arī"="too". I can fancy that *arus may be
> > cognate with "agros", since "lauks" should be of the same origin as
> Russian
> > "lug" - "meadow".
> >
> > stevo
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Charlie Brickner <
> >>> [email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was visiting
> >>> our
> >>>> shut-
> >>>> ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
> >>>>
> >>>> The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your
> >>>> culture
> >>>> has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors,
> >> how
> >>>> do you
> >>>> express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
> >>>>
> >>>> Charlie
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
1.2. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:38 am ((PST))
Liels paldies.
I really love how Latvian sounds, but being by no means native, I know
nothing about the history of your language. And I really find it very sad
that such a beautiful and archaic language is spoiled with loanwords.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Toms Deimonds Barvidis
<[email protected]>wrote:
> This issue seams to be already solved before I, a native Latvian speaker,
> had seen the thread :D
>
> Anyway, "ārā" is indeed a locative from an earlier "ārs", meaning "the
> outdoors", most definitely related to "āre", an
> open, cultivated land, thus probably also with "art" (to plough) and
> "arkls" (a plough), as well as Latin "arō" and
> English "ear" (not the body part, of course), I suppose.
>
> Nowadays it's usually perceived as an adverb, not a declined form of any
> noun, since "ārs" has fallen out of usage
> in this meaning; "ārs" is now used to mean an are, 100 square meters.
>
> "Laukā" is also a locative from "lauks", a field.
>
> The opposite concept "inside" is usually "iekšā"; seems like another
> locative. Some related words are "iekšas"
> (intestine) and "iekš", an archaic preposition meaning "in", usually used
> mocking the way Baltic Germans spoke
> Latvian and more increasingly with loaned words that can't be declined,
> though I find this rather ugly.
>
> Citējot "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>:
> > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:04 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]
> >>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> In Russian one uses "na ulitse" (on the street) or "na dvore" (in the
> >> yard)
> >>> for outdoors, sometimes also "za oknom" (beyond the window). In Latvian
> >> it
> >>> is either arā (outside) or laukā "in the field".
> >>>
> >>
> >> "Arā" looks like a locative. What is the nominative and what does it
> mean?
> >>
> >
> > For me too, but I'm no champion it Latvian. There is no "aris" or "arus"
> > in the dictionalry, and the only meaning of "ars" is 100m2. Thuogh there
> > are particles "ar"="with" and "arī"="too". I can fancy that *arus may be
> > cognate with "agros", since "lauks" should be of the same origin as
> Russian
> > "lug" - "meadow".
> >
> > stevo
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Charlie Brickner <
> >>> [email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was visiting
> >>> our
> >>>> shut-
> >>>> ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
> >>>>
> >>>> The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your
> >>>> culture
> >>>> has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors,
> >> how
> >>>> do you
> >>>> express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
> >>>>
> >>>> Charlie
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
1.3. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Toms Deimonds Barvidis" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:03 am ((PST))
Nav par ko :)
It's pretty hard to find decent information on history of Latvian even here, in
Latvia. Most of the web-based
information is highly biased, emphasizing the similarities between Latvian and
Sanskrit to sometimes even
ridiculous degree while ignoring other IE languages altogether.
I sometimes surprises me how many Germanic loanwords Latvian has, when I come
to a realization that some
basic vocabulary unit is actually a loan. I think it's a little bit sad, too,
though I'm not in any way opposed to
borrowing, especially if the borrowing language doesn't have an appropriate
word. Anyway, the awesome amount of
German loans (I'm for from competent in Germanic linguistics, but I believe the
source language of most of the
loans to be Middle Low German) in Latvian (as well as French loans in English)
inspired me to do a loan-ful
conlang, Beringian.
Beringian has appeared in the list once or twice, I remember once mentioning it
because I was pretty proud of how I
made it sound and look like French, though the similarity has waned a little
bit since.
So, I don't know if it's been already discussed here on the list, but have
those of you who have conworlds (I think it's
necessary for this one :D ) ever put some work into making languages borrow
from each other? What are the
causes for borrowing? Higher prestige of the source language or simply the
borrowing culture is more backwards
and doesn't have the words for some concepts? How likely is it that the
institutions governing language have new
learned borrowings undergo some historical sound changes in order to make them
feel more natural?
Citējot "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>:
> Liels paldies.
>
> I really love how Latvian sounds, but being by no means native, I know
> nothing about the history of your language. And I really find it very sad
> that such a beautiful and archaic language is spoiled with loanwords.
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Toms Deimonds Barvidis
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> This issue seams to be already solved before I, a native Latvian speaker,
>> had seen the thread :D
>>
>> Anyway, "ārā" is indeed a locative from an earlier "ārs", meaning "the
>> outdoors", most definitely related to "āre", an
>> open, cultivated land, thus probably also with "art" (to plough) and
>> "arkls" (a plough), as well as Latin "arō" and
>> English "ear" (not the body part, of course), I suppose.
>>
>> Nowadays it's usually perceived as an adverb, not a declined form of any
>> noun, since "ārs" has fallen out of usage
>> in this meaning; "ārs" is now used to mean an are, 100 square meters.
>>
>> "Laukā" is also a locative from "lauks", a field.
>>
>> The opposite concept "inside" is usually "iekšā"; seems like another
>> locative. Some related words are "iekšas"
>> (intestine) and "iekš", an archaic preposition meaning "in", usually used
>> mocking the way Baltic Germans spoke
>> Latvian and more increasingly with loaned words that can't be declined,
>> though I find this rather ugly.
>>
>> Citējot "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>:
>>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:04 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In Russian one uses "na ulitse" (on the street) or "na dvore" (in the
>>>> yard)
>>>>> for outdoors, sometimes also "za oknom" (beyond the window). In Latvian
>>>> it
>>>>> is either arā (outside) or laukā "in the field".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Arā" looks like a locative. What is the nominative and what does it
>> mean?
>>>>
>>>
>>> For me too, but I'm no champion it Latvian. There is no "aris" or "arus"
>>> in the dictionalry, and the only meaning of "ars" is 100m2. Thuogh there
>>> are particles "ar"="with" and "arī"="too". I can fancy that *arus may be
>>> cognate with "agros", since "lauks" should be of the same origin as
>> Russian
>>> "lug" - "meadow".
>>>
>>> stevo
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Charlie Brickner <
>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was visiting
>>>>> our
>>>>>> shut-
>>>>>> ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your
>>>>>> culture
>>>>>> has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors,
>>>> how
>>>>>> do you
>>>>>> express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
1.4. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:13 am ((PST))
On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Toms Deimonds Barvidis
<[email protected]>wrote:
> Nav par ko :)
>
> It's pretty hard to find decent information on history of Latvian even
> here, in Latvia. Most of the web-based
> information is highly biased, emphasizing the similarities between Latvian
> and Sanskrit to sometimes even
> ridiculous degree while ignoring other IE languages altogether
The only difference with Russian is that more people speak it, and if we
just think that the number of rational-thinking linguists is a constant
number per capita in post-Soviet space, then maybe there are just more
Russian scientists that are willing to write someting descent is just
bigger. Although, of course, the number of "real scientists" proving that
Russian is an Ursprache of everything is much more big as well.
I sometimes surprises me how many Germanic loanwords Latvian has, when I
> come to a realization that some
> basic vocabulary unit is actually a loan. I think it's a little bit sad,
> too, though I'm not in any way opposed to
> borrowing, especially if the borrowing language doesn't have an
> appropriate word. Anyway, the awesome amount of
> German loans (I'm for from competent in Germanic linguistics, but I
> believe the source language of most of the
> loans to be Middle Low German) in Latvian (as well as French loans in
> English) inspired me to do a loan-ful
> conlang, Beringian.
>
> Beringian has appeared in the list once or twice, I remember once
> mentioning it because I was pretty proud of how I
> made it sound and look like French, though the similarity has waned a
> little bit since.
>
That sounds really interesting.
>
> So, I don't know if it's been already discussed here on the list, but have
> those of you who have conworlds (I think it's
> necessary for this one :D ) ever put some work into making languages
> borrow from each other? What are the
> causes for borrowing? Higher prestige of the source language or simply the
> borrowing culture is more backwards
> and doesn't have the words for some concepts? How likely is it that the
> institutions governing language have new
> learned borrowings undergo some historical sound changes in order to make
> them feel more natural?
> Cit�jot "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>:
> > Liels paldies.
> >
> > I really love how Latvian sounds, but being by no means native, I know
> > nothing about the history of your language. And I really find it very sad
> > that such a beautiful and archaic language is spoiled with loanwords.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Toms Deimonds Barvidis
> > <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> >> This issue seams to be already solved before I, a native Latvian
> speaker,
> >> had seen the thread :D
> >>
> >> Anyway, "�r�" is indeed a locative from an earlier "�rs", meaning "the
> >> outdoors", most definitely related to "�re", an
> >> open, cultivated land, thus probably also with "art" (to plough) and
> >> "arkls" (a plough), as well as Latin "ar�" and
> >> English "ear" (not the body part, of course), I suppose.
> >>
> >> Nowadays it's usually perceived as an adverb, not a declined form of any
> >> noun, since "�rs" has fallen out of usage
> >> in this meaning; "�rs" is now used to mean an are, 100 square meters.
> >>
> >> "Lauk�" is also a locative from "lauks", a field.
> >>
> >> The opposite concept "inside" is usually "iek��"; seems like another
> >> locative. Some related words are "iek�as"
> >> (intestine) and "iek�", an archaic preposition meaning "in", usually
> used
> >> mocking the way Baltic Germans spoke
> >> Latvian and more increasingly with loaned words that can't be declined,
> >> though I find this rather ugly.
> >>
> >> Cit�jot "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>:
> >>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:04 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <
> [email protected]
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> In Russian one uses "na ulitse" (on the street) or "na dvore" (in the
> >>>> yard)
> >>>>> for outdoors, sometimes also "za oknom" (beyond the window). In
> Latvian
> >>>> it
> >>>>> is either ar� (outside) or lauk� "in the field".
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "Ar�" looks like a locative. What is the nominative and what does it
> >> mean?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> For me too, but I'm no champion it Latvian. There is no "aris" or
> "arus"
> >>> in the dictionalry, and the only meaning of "ars" is 100m2. Thuogh
> there
> >>> are particles "ar"="with" and "ar�"="too". I can fancy that *arus may
> be
> >>> cognate with "agros", since "lauks" should be of the same origin as
> >> Russian
> >>> "lug" - "meadow".
> >>>
> >>> stevo
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Charlie Brickner <
> >>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> It's 60� here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was
> visiting
> >>>>> our
> >>>>>> shut-
> >>>>>> ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your
> >>>>>> culture
> >>>>>> has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors,
> >>>> how
> >>>>>> do you
> >>>>>> express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Charlie
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
1.5. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:28 am ((PST))
Is Lithuanian material any more available than Latvian? To what degree can
such Lithuanian material be used for Latvian?
stevo
On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 3:03 AM, Toms Deimonds Barvidis
<[email protected]>wrote:
> Nav par ko :)
>
> It's pretty hard to find decent information on history of Latvian even
> here, in Latvia. Most of the web-based
> information is highly biased, emphasizing the similarities between Latvian
> and Sanskrit to sometimes even
> ridiculous degree while ignoring other IE languages altogether.
>
> I sometimes surprises me how many Germanic loanwords Latvian has, when I
> come to a realization that some
> basic vocabulary unit is actually a loan. I think it's a little bit sad,
> too, though I'm not in any way opposed to
> borrowing, especially if the borrowing language doesn't have an
> appropriate word. Anyway, the awesome amount of
> German loans (I'm for from competent in Germanic linguistics, but I
> believe the source language of most of the
> loans to be Middle Low German) in Latvian (as well as French loans in
> English) inspired me to do a loan-ful
> conlang, Beringian.
>
> Beringian has appeared in the list once or twice, I remember once
> mentioning it because I was pretty proud of how I
> made it sound and look like French, though the similarity has waned a
> little bit since.
>
> So, I don't know if it's been already discussed here on the list, but have
> those of you who have conworlds (I think it's
> necessary for this one :D ) ever put some work into making languages
> borrow from each other? What are the
> causes for borrowing? Higher prestige of the source language or simply the
> borrowing culture is more backwards
> and doesn't have the words for some concepts? How likely is it that the
> institutions governing language have new
> learned borrowings undergo some historical sound changes in order to make
> them feel more natural?
>
>
> Citējot "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>:
> > Liels paldies.
> >
> > I really love how Latvian sounds, but being by no means native, I know
> > nothing about the history of your language. And I really find it very sad
> > that such a beautiful and archaic language is spoiled with loanwords.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Toms Deimonds Barvidis
> > <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> >> This issue seams to be already solved before I, a native Latvian
> speaker,
> >> had seen the thread :D
> >>
> >> Anyway, "ārā" is indeed a locative from an earlier "ārs", meaning "the
> >> outdoors", most definitely related to "āre", an
> >> open, cultivated land, thus probably also with "art" (to plough) and
> >> "arkls" (a plough), as well as Latin "arō" and
> >> English "ear" (not the body part, of course), I suppose.
> >>
> >> Nowadays it's usually perceived as an adverb, not a declined form of any
> >> noun, since "ārs" has fallen out of usage
> >> in this meaning; "ārs" is now used to mean an are, 100 square meters.
> >>
> >> "Laukā" is also a locative from "lauks", a field.
> >>
> >> The opposite concept "inside" is usually "iekšā"; seems like another
> >> locative. Some related words are "iekšas"
> >> (intestine) and "iekš", an archaic preposition meaning "in", usually
> used
> >> mocking the way Baltic Germans spoke
> >> Latvian and more increasingly with loaned words that can't be declined,
> >> though I find this rather ugly.
> >>
> >> Citējot "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>:
> >>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:04 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <
> [email protected]
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> In Russian one uses "na ulitse" (on the street) or "na dvore" (in the
> >>>> yard)
> >>>>> for outdoors, sometimes also "za oknom" (beyond the window). In
> Latvian
> >>>> it
> >>>>> is either arā (outside) or laukā "in the field".
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "Arā" looks like a locative. What is the nominative and what does it
> >> mean?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> For me too, but I'm no champion it Latvian. There is no "aris" or
> "arus"
> >>> in the dictionalry, and the only meaning of "ars" is 100m2. Thuogh
> there
> >>> are particles "ar"="with" and "arī"="too". I can fancy that *arus may
> be
> >>> cognate with "agros", since "lauks" should be of the same origin as
> >> Russian
> >>> "lug" - "meadow".
> >>>
> >>> stevo
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Charlie Brickner <
> >>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was
> visiting
> >>>>> our
> >>>>>> shut-
> >>>>>> ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your
> >>>>>> culture
> >>>>>> has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors,
> >>>> how
> >>>>>> do you
> >>>>>> express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Charlie
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
1.6. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Toms Deimonds Barvidis" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:01 am ((PST))
I've never really tried to find anything for Lithuanian. I suppose such info
could be used for Latvian at least to some
degree, since there are not much sound changes involved in the split of Latvian
and Lithuanian.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/50949/Baltic-languages/74884/Comparison-of-Lithuanian-and-Latvian
-
this page has got some basic description of the differences between Latvian and
Lithuanian, the former generally
considered more innovative, at least by those who are not of the
Latvian-Sanskrit Superlanguage cult :D
--
Raungiga golvärdhänon.
Toms Deimonds Barvidis
Citējot MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>:
> Is Lithuanian material any more available than Latvian? To what degree can
> such Lithuanian material be used for Latvian?
>
> stevo
>
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 3:03 AM, Toms Deimonds Barvidis
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> Nav par ko :)
>>
>> It's pretty hard to find decent information on history of Latvian even
>> here, in Latvia. Most of the web-based
>> information is highly biased, emphasizing the similarities between Latvian
>> and Sanskrit to sometimes even
>> ridiculous degree while ignoring other IE languages altogether.
>>
>> I sometimes surprises me how many Germanic loanwords Latvian has, when I
>> come to a realization that some
>> basic vocabulary unit is actually a loan. I think it's a little bit sad,
>> too, though I'm not in any way opposed to
>> borrowing, especially if the borrowing language doesn't have an
>> appropriate word. Anyway, the awesome amount of
>> German loans (I'm for from competent in Germanic linguistics, but I
>> believe the source language of most of the
>> loans to be Middle Low German) in Latvian (as well as French loans in
>> English) inspired me to do a loan-ful
>> conlang, Beringian.
>>
>> Beringian has appeared in the list once or twice, I remember once
>> mentioning it because I was pretty proud of how I
>> made it sound and look like French, though the similarity has waned a
>> little bit since.
>>
>> So, I don't know if it's been already discussed here on the list, but have
>> those of you who have conworlds (I think it's
>> necessary for this one :D ) ever put some work into making languages
>> borrow from each other? What are the
>> causes for borrowing? Higher prestige of the source language or simply the
>> borrowing culture is more backwards
>> and doesn't have the words for some concepts? How likely is it that the
>> institutions governing language have new
>> learned borrowings undergo some historical sound changes in order to make
>> them feel more natural?
>>
>>
>> Citējot "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>:
>>> Liels paldies.
>>>
>>> I really love how Latvian sounds, but being by no means native, I know
>>> nothing about the history of your language. And I really find it very sad
>>> that such a beautiful and archaic language is spoiled with loanwords.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Toms Deimonds Barvidis
>>> <[email protected]>wrote:
>>>
>>>> This issue seams to be already solved before I, a native Latvian
>> speaker,
>>>> had seen the thread :D
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, "ārā" is indeed a locative from an earlier "ārs", meaning "the
>>>> outdoors", most definitely related to "āre", an
>>>> open, cultivated land, thus probably also with "art" (to plough) and
>>>> "arkls" (a plough), as well as Latin "arō" and
>>>> English "ear" (not the body part, of course), I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Nowadays it's usually perceived as an adverb, not a declined form of any
>>>> noun, since "ārs" has fallen out of usage
>>>> in this meaning; "ārs" is now used to mean an are, 100 square meters.
>>>>
>>>> "Laukā" is also a locative from "lauks", a field.
>>>>
>>>> The opposite concept "inside" is usually "iekšā"; seems like another
>>>> locative. Some related words are "iekšas"
>>>> (intestine) and "iekš", an archaic preposition meaning "in", usually
>> used
>>>> mocking the way Baltic Germans spoke
>>>> Latvian and more increasingly with loaned words that can't be declined,
>>>> though I find this rather ugly.
>>>>
>>>> Citējot "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>:
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:04 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <
>> [email protected]
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Russian one uses "na ulitse" (on the street) or "na dvore" (in the
>>>>>> yard)
>>>>>>> for outdoors, sometimes also "za oknom" (beyond the window). In
>> Latvian
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> is either arā (outside) or laukā "in the field".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Arā" looks like a locative. What is the nominative and what does it
>>>> mean?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For me too, but I'm no champion it Latvian. There is no "aris" or
>> "arus"
>>>>> in the dictionalry, and the only meaning of "ars" is 100m2. Thuogh
>> there
>>>>> are particles "ar"="with" and "arī"="too". I can fancy that *arus may
>> be
>>>>> cognate with "agros", since "lauks" should be of the same origin as
>>>> Russian
>>>>> "lug" - "meadow".
>>>>>
>>>>> stevo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Charlie Brickner <
>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was
>> visiting
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> shut-
>>>>>>>> ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your
>>>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>>> has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors,
>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> do you
>>>>>>>> express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. NATLANG: English Help
Posted by: "Brian Woodward" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:23 pm ((PST))
My sister asked me to proof read her paper for school (not an English class)
but I'm having trouble with this one sentence:
"The NCRP believes that the guidelines laid out in Report no. 116 are the
maximum risk to be taken not to exceed any benefit received."
I was thinking the copula needs to be replaced but with what I am not sure. If
anyone has any recommendations, they would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Brian
Sent from my iPhone
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: NATLANG: English Help
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:33 pm ((PST))
I might consider using "constitute" or "quantify" in place of "are".
So:
The NCRP believes that the guidelines laid out in Report no. 116
constitute the maximum risk to be taken not to exceed any benefit received.
or
The NCRP believes that the guidelines laid out in Report no. 116
quantify the maximum risk to be taken not to exceed any benefit received.
On 02/17/2012 03:23 PM, Brian Woodward wrote:
> My sister asked me to proof read her paper for school (not an English class)
> but I'm having trouble with this one sentence:
>
> "The NCRP believes that the guidelines laid out in Report no. 116 are the
> maximum risk to be taken not to exceed any benefit received."
>
> I was thinking the copula needs to be replaced but with what I am not sure.
> If anyone has any recommendations, they would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> Sent from my iPhone
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: NATLANG: English Help
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:33 pm ((PST))
I'm not completely sure I understand the sentence, but I would go with
something like:
"The NCRP believes that the guidelines laid out in Report no. 116
represent the maximum risk that can be taken without exceeding any
benefits received."
That is if I'm correctly understanding the sentence, which seems
awfully confusing to me.
--gary
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Brian Woodward <[email protected]> wrote:
> My sister asked me to proof read her paper for school (not an English class)
> but I'm having trouble with this one sentence:
>
> "The NCRP believes that the guidelines laid out in Report no. 116 are the
> maximum risk to be taken not to exceed any benefit received."
>
> I was thinking the copula needs to be replaced but with what I am not sure.
> If anyone has any recommendations, they would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> Sent from my iPhone
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: NATLANG: English Help
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:38 pm ((PST))
I like that better than my suggestion, actually, as long as it's the
meaning the writer originally intended. It flows nicely.
On 02/17/2012 03:33 PM, Gary Shannon wrote:
> I'm not completely sure I understand the sentence, but I would go with
> something like:
>
> "The NCRP believes that the guidelines laid out in Report no. 116
> represent the maximum risk that can be taken without exceeding any
> benefits received."
>
> That is if I'm correctly understanding the sentence, which seems
> awfully confusing to me.
>
> --gary
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Brian Woodward<[email protected]> wrote:
>> My sister asked me to proof read her paper for school (not an English class)
>> but I'm having trouble with this one sentence:
>>
>> "The NCRP believes that the guidelines laid out in Report no. 116 are the
>> maximum risk to be taken not to exceed any benefit received."
>>
>> I was thinking the copula needs to be replaced but with what I am not sure.
>> If anyone has any recommendations, they would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brian
>> Sent from my iPhone
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: NATLANG: English Help
Posted by: "Brian Woodward" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:03 pm ((PST))
I think I like Gary's suggestion as well. Thank you to everyone for responding
so quickly.
And to Scott: I knew the copula was correct grammatically but it just didn't
seem to flow pragmatically (if that makes any sense).
Again, thank you all for your help.
Brian
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2012, at 14:23, Brian Woodward <[email protected]> wrote:
> My sister asked me to proof read her paper for school (not an English class)
> but I'm having trouble with this one sentence:
>
> "The NCRP believes that the guidelines laid out in Report no. 116 are the
> maximum risk to be taken not to exceed any benefit received."
>
> I was thinking the copula needs to be replaced but with what I am not sure.
> If anyone has any recommendations, they would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> Sent from my iPhone
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3. Phonology Phrustration and Uzbek
Posted by: "Eamon Graham" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:56 pm ((PST))
I've been working for sometime now on a language w
Hello dear listers!
I've been working for sometime now on a language which phonology should be
aesthetically similar to Uzbek and (Anatolian) Turkish. The consonant system
is largely a compromise between Turkish and Uzbek, while the vowel system I
have been trying to base on Uzbek. The problem is that after an embarrassing
number of hours spent puzzling over the problem, I have yet to come across any
consistency in the descriptions of Uzbek to which I have access (for example,
comparing Sjoberg's truly awesome Uzbek Structural Grammar with any of the
other descriptions I've seen - including the vague assurance that it's "the
same as Tajik," something with which I haven't been able to entirely agree).
One problem is that none of the descriptions (including Sjoberg's) use standard
IPA symbols (though Sjoberg does give height, backness and roundness, which
helps). This is problem #1.
Problem #2 is: how do we model the aesthetic qualities of our languages'
phonologies after those of a natural language? When you hear a language (or
better yet 2 languages) and you say, wow, I want my language to sound like
that, how do you ensure that your language will, in fact, sound like that?
Copying a phonology wholesale seems to be the obvious answer, but how to even
do that when the descriptions to which one has access don't even agree? And
what if you are inspired by two or more languages' phonologies?
Thank you for reading!
Eamon
Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________
4a. Coining New Words in Language Families
Posted by: "J. M. DeSantis" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:25 pm ((PST))
Conlang-L,
I'm not sure if this shouldn't be labeled under THEORY, so I apologise
in advance for the potential mislabel.
I've been working on one of my four Proto-Languages, and it's been
coming along nicely, albeit a bit slower than I'd hoped. However, I have
noticed that this one language may very well have a limited vocabulary.
That said, the three or four languages coming out of this family will
most certainly have more words than the proto. So, my question is this:
If a language derives from another language, but the original language
has no word for something, will the derivative language in the family
simply coin a new word or root to work with? Or should all words come
from some source?
To be specific, the one Proto-Language is a language of the gods, yet it
is unlikely they will have had a word for say "tree" or even more likely
"sword." My Elvish will need these (which is in the same family), so
should new roots/words be coined, or should they derive from existing
roots? Any information will be most helpful going forward. Thank you
all, in advance, for your help.
--
Sincerely,
J. M. DeSantis
Writer - Illustrator
Website: jmdesantis.com <http://www.jmdesantis.com>
Figmunds: figmunds.com <http://www.figmunds.com>
Game-Flush (A Humorous Video Game Site): game-flush.com
<http://www.game-flush.com>
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Coining New Words in Language Families
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:13 pm ((PST))
--- On Fri, 2/17/12, J. M. DeSantis <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've been working on one of my four Proto-Languages, and
> it's been coming along nicely, albeit a bit slower than I'd
> hoped. However, I have noticed that this one language may
> very well have a limited vocabulary. That said, the three or
> four languages coming out of this family will most certainly
> have more words than the proto. So, my question is this:
>
> If a language derives from another language, but the
> original language has no word for something, will the
> derivative language in the family simply coin a new word or
> root to work with? Or should all words come from some
> source?
It certainly could coin a new word. Alternatively, it could refashion an
old word -- give it a new or extended meaning. Several old words can get
together and form a compound with a new meaning. Or, it could borrow the
word from the place the new concept or thing comes from.
"Xerox" (a electro-mechanically produced image made on paper) is a word
that did not exist before the process was made. The root is old, but there
is an entirely different and new meaning assigned. "Kleenex" is another
example of a newly coined word.
"Conlang" itself is an example of a way of coining a new word -- take parts
of a couple old words and smash em together.
"Car" (a gas powered automobile) is an extended meaning of a very old word.
"Toilet paper" is a new compound made from old words.
"Opossum" is a new word borrowed from a different language that already
knew the animal.
> To be specific, the one Proto-Language is a language of the
> gods, yet it is unlikely they will have had a word for say
> "tree" or even more likely "sword."
Depends on the nature and activity of these "gods". What are they like?
What do they do? Are they physical or spiritual beings? How do they
interact with the universe?
> My Elvish will need these (which is in the same family), so should new
> roots/words be coined, or should they derive from existing
> roots? Any information will be most helpful going forward.
> Thank you all, in advance, for your help.
You might want to ask your Elves -- I'm assuming they first learn to speak
from the gods? How do they think? Are they able to devise new words, or
is the creation of words the purview of the gods alone? Do they prefer long
descriptive locutions or short and to the point names?
What effects would a stranger who speaks an alien language and who has
no trouble at all in giving things novel names have on a people for whom
it is a sin to transgress against the language of the gods by adding to
or taking away therefrom?
Cheers,
Padraic
> -- Sincerely,
> J. M. DeSantis
> Writer - Illustrator
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
4c. Re: Coining New Words in Language Families
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:15 pm ((PST))
Normmally what happens is either the language makes a new word from
words it already has through morphological processes or it loans a
word from a language it's in contact with the does have a word for the
concept. Pretty much never make up a new opaque root though, that's
very rare. It does happen though for example the english word quark.
However you can do it either way and no one will knock you for it I
bet.
On 2/17/12, J. M. DeSantis <[email protected]> wrote:
> Conlang-L,
>
> I'm not sure if this shouldn't be labeled under THEORY, so I apologise
> in advance for the potential mislabel.
>
> I've been working on one of my four Proto-Languages, and it's been
> coming along nicely, albeit a bit slower than I'd hoped. However, I have
> noticed that this one language may very well have a limited vocabulary.
> That said, the three or four languages coming out of this family will
> most certainly have more words than the proto. So, my question is this:
>
> If a language derives from another language, but the original language
> has no word for something, will the derivative language in the family
> simply coin a new word or root to work with? Or should all words come
> from some source?
>
> To be specific, the one Proto-Language is a language of the gods, yet it
> is unlikely they will have had a word for say "tree" or even more likely
> "sword." My Elvish will need these (which is in the same family), so
> should new roots/words be coined, or should they derive from existing
> roots? Any information will be most helpful going forward. Thank you
> all, in advance, for your help.
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> J. M. DeSantis
> Writer - Illustrator
>
> Website: jmdesantis.com <http://www.jmdesantis.com>
> Figmunds: figmunds.com <http://www.figmunds.com>
> Game-Flush (A Humorous Video Game Site): game-flush.com
> <http://www.game-flush.com>
>
--
Sent from my mobile device
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
4d. Re: Coining New Words in Language Families
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:12 pm ((PST))
From: J. M. DeSantis <[email protected]>
> I've been working on one of my four Proto-Languages, and it's been coming
> along nicely, albeit a bit slower than I'd hoped. However, I have noticed
> that this one language may very well have a limited vocabulary. That said,
> the three or four languages coming out of this family will most certainly
> have more words than the proto. So, my question is this:
> If a language derives from another language, but the original language has no
> word for something, will the derivative language in the family simply coin a
> new word...
That seem almost never to happen in natlangs......IIRC "gas" (in the chemical
sense, not = petrol) is the only real coinage in recent history (during the
Renaissance I think), and it's said to be based on Greek "chaos". Then there
are slangy things like "quiz", but that's surely from "inquisition".
> ...or root to work with? Or should all words come from some source?
It might be possible to modify an existing root in some way-- vowel or
consonant change, add something (like a nasal before stops?), or maybe
reduplicate or compound existing roots, or create derivatives???
> To be specific, the one Proto-Language is a language of the gods, yet it is
> unlikely they will have had a word for say "tree" or even more likely
> "sword." My Elvish will need these (which is in the same family), so should
> new roots/words be coined, or should they derive from existing roots?
Possibly, see above. But if you have four proto-languages (and all their
presumed descendants) , and assuming that there will be at least some kind of
contact between groups, borrowing is the best possibility IMO.
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
4e. Re: Coining New Words in Language Families
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:16 am ((PST))
On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:11:09 -0800, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> Then there are slangy things like "quiz", but that's surely from
> "inquisition".
>
Sounds good to me, but the AHD says that the origin is unknown.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5. Fwd: [CONLANG] Coining New Words in Language Families
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:46 pm ((PST))
Bloody reply button only going to the author grumblegrumble . . .
See below, meant for the list:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Patrick Dunn <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Coining New Words in Language Families
To: Roger Mills <[email protected]>
You can also have borrowings come in from related languages. Our words
"hostile" "host" and "hospital" all come from the same root, by different
means.
So you might have a Proto-Deus word */klops/ meaning "stick."
Elven sound change simplifies consonant clusters, let's say, through
assimilation, giving /gof/ for "stick"
Trolls, on the other hand, have a different set of sound changes, leading
to Trollish /ghaupsa/, "stick," but also "sword."
Elves, having gone to war with the trolls and learned about this wonderful
new technology, borrow their word for it, modifying it to fit their
phonology: /haufa/.
So the elves now have two words: /gof/, "stick" and /haufa/ "sword" and
none but the elven linguists realize that they both derive from Proto-Deus
*/klops/
Neat, huh?
On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 12:11 AM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: J. M. DeSantis <[email protected]>
>
> > I've been working on one of my four Proto-Languages, and it's been
> coming along nicely, albeit a bit slower than I'd hoped. However, I have
> noticed that this one language may very well have a limited vocabulary.
> That said, the three or four languages coming out of this family will most
> certainly have more words than the proto. So, my question is this:
>
> > If a language derives from another language, but the original language
> has no word for something, will the derivative language in the family
> simply coin a new word...
>
> That seem almost never to happen in natlangs......IIRC "gas" (in the
> chemical sense, not = petrol) is the only real coinage in recent history
> (during the Renaissance I think), and it's said to be based on Greek
> "chaos". Then there are slangy things like "quiz", but that's surely from
> "inquisition".
>
> > ...or root to work with? Or should all words come from some source?
>
> It might be possible to modify an existing root in some way-- vowel or
> consonant change, add something (like a nasal before stops?), or maybe
> reduplicate or compound existing roots, or create derivatives???
>
> > To be specific, the one Proto-Language is a language of the gods, yet it
> is unlikely they will have had a word for say "tree" or even more likely
> "sword." My Elvish will need these (which is in the same family), so should
> new roots/words be coined, or should they derive from existing roots?
>
> Possibly, see above. But if you have four proto-languages (and all their
> presumed descendants) , and assuming that there will be at least some kind
> of contact between groups, borrowing is the best possibility IMO.
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (1)
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