There are 21 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: The Yardish Writing System
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1b. Re: The Yardish Writing System
From: Patrick Dunn
1c. Re: The Yardish Writing System
From: Nikolay Ivankov
1d. Re: The Yardish Writing System
From: Padraic Brown
1e. Re: The Yardish Writing System
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1f. Re: The Yardish Writing System
From: Herman Miller
1g. Re: The Yardish Writing System
From: Roger Mills
2.1. Re: Outdoors
From: [email protected]
2.2. Re: Outdoors
From: Charlie Brickner
2.3. Re: Outdoors
From: David McCann
2.4. Re: Outdoors
From: Nikolay Ivankov
2.5. Re: Outdoors
From: Alex Fink
2.6. Re: Outdoors
From: Nikolay Ivankov
2.7. Re: Outdoors
From: Daniel Prohaska
2.8. Re: Outdoors
From: BPJ
2.9. Re: Outdoors
From: BPJ
2.10. Re: Outdoors
From: Charlie Brickner
2.11. Re: Outdoors
From: Peter Cyrus
2.12. Re: Outdoors
From: Toms Deimonds Barvidis
3a. Re: bird names
From: David McCann
4a. Re: progressive vocabulary stories
From: Patrick Dunn
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: The Yardish Writing System
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:27 am ((PST))
Wow! Would they call it braille?
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: The Yardish Writing System
> It could also be something like the Phaistos Dick, where the signs were
> written by pressing the seals onto clay. Though, I'd rather think that if
> one writes on clay, then something like cuneiform is much more likely to
> develop, since instead of a relatively big number of seals one needs only
> a
> stylus to write it. And cuneiform also looks more like Braille too.
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Virginia Keys
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>> If you want a braille-like system, they could press small beads into a
>> clay
>> surface. Of course, the beads would have to not melt or burn during the
>> firing process.
>>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: The Yardish Writing System
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:47 am ((PST))
Why is "braille" called "braille," and would that same history of events
occur on your world?
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Wow! Would they call it braille?
>
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]
> >
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:16 AM
> Subject: Re: The Yardish Writing System
>
>
>
> It could also be something like the Phaistos Dick, where the signs were
>> written by pressing the seals onto clay. Though, I'd rather think that if
>> one writes on clay, then something like cuneiform is much more likely to
>> develop, since instead of a relatively big number of seals one needs only
>> a
>> stylus to write it. And cuneiform also looks more like Braille too.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Virginia Keys <[email protected]
>> >wrote:
>>
>> If you want a braille-like system, they could press small beads into a
>>> clay
>>> surface. Of course, the beads would have to not melt or burn during the
>>> firing process.
>>>
>>>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: The Yardish Writing System
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:08 am ((PST))
Well, Braille is a second name of a Frenchman, you know. But of course you
can fancy that *brey would mean "to carve" or "to write" or "stylus" in
your language. Why not? It is you who master the world, and as far as if
it's logically consistent, everything is fine. You can even find a nice
etymology connecting this word with some others. Personally, I like such
easter eggs in the stories.
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Wow! Would they call it braille?
>
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]
> >
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:16 AM
> Subject: Re: The Yardish Writing System
>
>
>
> It could also be something like the Phaistos Dick, where the signs were
>> written by pressing the seals onto clay. Though, I'd rather think that if
>> one writes on clay, then something like cuneiform is much more likely to
>> develop, since instead of a relatively big number of seals one needs only
>> a
>> stylus to write it. And cuneiform also looks more like Braille too.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Virginia Keys <[email protected]
>> >wrote:
>>
>> If you want a braille-like system, they could press small beads into a
>>> clay
>>> surface. Of course, the beads would have to not melt or burn during the
>>> firing process.
>>>
>>>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: The Yardish Writing System
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:33 pm ((PST))
--- On Thu, 2/16/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Thanks for the help. What kind of implement should they use? What if
> they use material in the form of the braille dots withbraille captions
> bellow them?I'm asking about the implement because I'm thinking they
> probably wouldn;t use a braille writer or slate, as that sounds too
> earthly.Also, I'm just envissioning a tablet of some kind, what did the
> stone tablets look like? What other kinds of material could be used to
> make tablets, and what makes them tablets?
The implement will be determined by the writing medium. Paper is the medium
on which braille is written, so the stylus is the implement of choice. Or
the brailler for the more mechanically adept. If Yardish folk write on
stone, then they will need some kind of metal chisels; same if they write
in wood. If they write in clay, then a wood, metal or bamboo stylus can be
used very nicely.
I'd only note that for clay and cuneiform, if the wedges are too small,
you probably won't be able to distinguish the symbols. If you use pre-made
seals (as in the Phaistos disk), then the symbols could be made large
enough to a) be felt and distinguished while reading and b) be strong
enough to survive handling and use.
I think clay is probably not the best choice -- the little bumps that make
up the symbols can easily be worn or broken off. I think wood or stone
would be better.
Once technologically advanced enough, casting texts on metal plates would
also be a viable option.
>> [Seals on the Phaistos disk]
> Wow! Would they call it braille?
Probably not, as mentioned. "Braille", the name, derived from Louis Braille
who invented the system. Doesn't mean you can't use his name, or perhaps
the name of his home town, or the name of a famous blind person or the
French word for "blind" as the basis for the name. As has been said, these
kinds of "easter eggs" -- small homages to real world people or significant
events found in one's conlang -- are pretty neat.
For example, notice the similarity between the Daine seer who devised a
script for her language -- Sayaquorye -- and the historical firgure *here*
who devised a script for the Cherokee language -- Sequoyah.
Padraic
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:16 AM
> Subject: Re: The Yardish Writing System
>
>
> > It could also be something like the Phaistos Dick,
> where the signs were
> > written by pressing the seals onto clay. Though, I'd
> rather think that if
> > one writes on clay, then something like cuneiform is
> much more likely to
> > develop, since instead of a relatively big number of
> seals one needs only a
> > stylus to write it. And cuneiform also looks more like
> Braille too.
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Virginia Keys
> > <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> >> If you want a braille-like system, they could press
> small beads into a clay
> >> surface. Of course, the beads would have to not
> melt or burn during the
> >> firing process.
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: The Yardish Writing System
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:03 pm ((PST))
Braille is named after the inventor. Seems like someone who had the same
idea would have invented a tactile writing system.
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Dunn" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: The Yardish Writing System
> Why is "braille" called "braille," and would that same history of events
> occur on your world?
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Wow! Would they call it braille?
>>
>> Nicole Andrews
>>
>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist
>> Tweet me
>>
>>
>>
>> @greenNovelist
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nikolay Ivankov"
>> <[email protected]
>> >
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: The Yardish Writing System
>>
>>
>>
>> It could also be something like the Phaistos Dick, where the signs were
>>> written by pressing the seals onto clay. Though, I'd rather think that
>>> if
>>> one writes on clay, then something like cuneiform is much more likely to
>>> develop, since instead of a relatively big number of seals one needs
>>> only
>>> a
>>> stylus to write it. And cuneiform also looks more like Braille too.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Virginia Keys <[email protected]
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>> If you want a braille-like system, they could press small beads into a
>>>> clay
>>>> surface. Of course, the beads would have to not melt or burn during the
>>>> firing process.
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: The Yardish Writing System
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:10 pm ((PST))
On 2/16/2012 10:07 AM, Virginia Keys wrote:
> If you want a braille-like system, they could press small beads into a clay
> surface. Of course, the beads would have to not melt or burn during the
> firing process.
Or you could have beads on a string, with spacers between the beads
(this assumes you have some convenient way to thread the beads onto the
string).
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: The Yardish Writing System
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:12 pm ((PST))
From: Herman Miller <[email protected]>
On 2/16/2012 10:07 AM, Virginia Keys wrote:
> If you want a braille-like system, they could press small beads into a clay
> surface. Of course, the beads would have to not melt or burn during the
> firing process.
RM: how about little stones, pebbles?
Herman: Or you could have beads on a string, with spacers between the beads
(this assumes you have some convenient way to thread the beads onto the string).
=====================================
Very good idea. A mixture of large + small beads?
Glass or ceramic beads may be beyond their technology.......? but they could
use seeds, dried berries etc., then all you'd need would be some way to pierce
them (bone needle?) and a way to make string (or use animal sinews).
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "[email protected]" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:27 am ((PST))
MorphemeAddict wrote:
>
>> Ph. D. wrote:
>>
>> Herman Miller wrote:
>>> Why do we say "outdoors" anyway, come to think of it? "Outwalls"
>>> might be better. . . . Or you could just say "outside".
>>
>>
>> Although "outside" simply means "not in the current room."
>>
>> "Hey boss, do you have time to talk to my cousin about the
>> mail room job? He's waiting outside." i.e. he's in the next room.
>
>
> Rather than being in the next room, I'd expect him to be in a hallway
> or waiting area nearby, outside the current room, but still nearby.
> Definitely not in another room behind a door.
To me, a "room" is subdivision of a building. That is, a floor of
a building is divided into various rooms. Many rooms have
special uses and more specific names such as kitchen, bathroom,
hallway, waiting area, bedroom, office.
My point was simply that "outside" does not always mean
"outdoors."
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (29)
________________________________________________________________________
2.2. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:59 am ((PST))
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 13:38:05 -0000, A. da Mek <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Maybe even walls are not the most significant thing but the ceil.
>Was not the Latin phrase "sub jove" (under sky, in the open air)?
>
Yes, that is correct. And I like the idea.
In Senjecas �outdoors� will be �n�mom n�ra�, under the sky. I think it�s an
apt
expression to contrast with �xr�pom n�ra�, under the roof.
In the lative case:
mus n�mom n�r� �ta:
I am going outside/outdoors.
mus� xr�pom n�r� �ta:
I am going inside/indoors.
or
In the locative case:
n�es num�s n�ra lo�da:
They are playing outside/outdoors.
n�es� xrap�s n�ra lo�da:
They are playing inside/indoors.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (29)
________________________________________________________________________
2.3. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:52 am ((PST))
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 13:38:05 -0000
"A. da Mek" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Maybe even walls are not the most significant thing but the ceil.
> Was not the Latin phrase "sub jove" (under sky, in the open air)?
That's very poetic. The normal expression was foris or foras, both
literally "out of doors".
Messages in this topic (29)
________________________________________________________________________
2.4. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:46 am ((PST))
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:04 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]
> >wrote:
>
> > In Russian one uses "na ulitse" (on the street) or "na dvore" (in the
> yard)
> > for outdoors, sometimes also "za oknom" (beyond the window). In Latvian
> it
> > is either arā (outside) or laukā "in the field".
> >
>
> "Arā" looks like a locative. What is the nominative and what does it mean?
>
For me too, but I'm no champion it Latvian. There is no "aris" or "arus"
in the dictionalry, and the only meaning of "ars" is 100m2. Thuogh there
are particles "ar"="with" and "arī"="too". I can fancy that *arus may be
cognate with "agros", since "lauks" should be of the same origin as Russian
"lug" - "meadow".
stevo
>
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Charlie Brickner <
> > [email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was visiting
> > our
> > > shut-
> > > ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
> > >
> > > The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your
> > > culture
> > > has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors,
> how
> > > do you
> > > express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
> > >
> > > Charlie
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (29)
________________________________________________________________________
2.5. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:12 am ((PST))
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:46:17 +0100, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:04 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > In Russian one uses "na ulitse" (on the street) or "na dvore" (in the
>> yard)
>> > for outdoors, sometimes also "za oknom" (beyond the window). In Latvian
>> it
>> > is either arā (outside) or laukā "in the field".
>> >
>>
>> "Arā" looks like a locative. What is the nominative and what does it
>> mean?
>>
>
> For me too, but I'm no champion it Latvian. There is no "aris" or "arus"
>in the dictionalry, and the only meaning of "ars" is 100m2. Thuogh there
>are particles "ar"="with" and "arī"="too". I can fancy that *arus may be
>cognate with "agros", since "lauks" should be of the same origin as Russian
>"lug" - "meadow".
No, *g shouldn't vanish in that position in Baltic. At any rate the word is
_ārā_, both /a/s long!
In Sergei Nikolayev's Baltic etymological dictionary hosted at
starling.rinet.ru, there is an entry for Proto-Baltic: *_ā^r-&#257;^_
(2) f.
'space, air', and apparently a (historically?) attested Latvian noun
_âra, âre, ârs_ 'das Freie, das freie Feld; das Aussen, das Äussere, die
Aussenseite als das Freie, dem Auge Sichtbare; ein das Aussen bildendes
Gebiet, das ausserhalb der Grenze des Redenden Gelehhene'.
(I wish the Starostin databases would just use Unicode already. It's a fair
solution they have hacked together unless one, say, wants to copy from them,
or search for an accented character...)
Alex
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.6. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:18 am ((PST))
Oh, thanks a lot. So its' rather "aero" than "agro". Makes pretty much
sense. I'be been really looking for an etymological dictionary of Latvian,
but haven't found any. Good that you can give a reference. I'll bokkmark it
for the next occasion.
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:46:17 +0100, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:04 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]
> >> >wrote:
> >>
> >> > In Russian one uses "na ulitse" (on the street) or "na dvore" (in the
> >> yard)
> >> > for outdoors, sometimes also "za oknom" (beyond the window). In
> Latvian
> >> it
> >> > is either arā (outside) or laukā "in the field".
> >> >
> >>
> >> "Arā" looks like a locative. What is the nominative and what does
> it mean?
> >>
> >
> > For me too, but I'm no champion it Latvian. There is no "aris" or "arus"
> >in the dictionalry, and the only meaning of "ars" is 100m2. Thuogh there
> >are particles "ar"="with" and "arī"="too". I can fancy that *arus
> may be
> >cognate with "agros", since "lauks" should be of the same origin as
> Russian
> >"lug" - "meadow".
>
> No, *g shouldn't vanish in that position in Baltic. At any rate the word
> is
> _ārā_, both /a/s long!
>
> In Sergei Nikolayev's Baltic etymological dictionary hosted at
> starling.rinet.ru, there is an entry for Proto-Baltic:
> *_ā^r-&#257;^_ (2) f.
> 'space, air', and apparently a (historically?) attested Latvian noun
> _āra, āre, ārs_ 'das Freie, das freie Feld; das Aussen, das Äussere, die
> Aussenseite als das Freie, dem Auge Sichtbare; ein das Aussen bildendes
> Gebiet, das ausserhalb der Grenze des Redenden Gelehhene'.
>
> (I wish the Starostin databases would just use Unicode already. It's a
> fair
> solution they have hacked together unless one, say, wants to copy from
> them,
> or search for an accented character...)
>
> Alex
>
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.7. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:39 am ((PST))
German has �im Freien� "in the free/open air", so yes, it's not just related to
�frei� 'free' - it's actually the same word. Of course you can say �drau�en�,
too.
Dan
On Feb 16, 2012, at 1:24 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> I've always assumed "Freie" and "frei" are obviously related.
>
> stevo
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Charlie Brickner <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 21:43:42 -0500, Herman Miller
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Why do we say "outdoors" anyway, come to think of it? "Outwalls" might
>>> be better. Seen in that way, the significant thing isn't which side of a
>>> door you're on, but that you're not surrounded by walls. Or you could
>>> just say "outside".
>>
>> Perhaps because one has to go out through the door to get outside. The
>> door is more important in the transition from inside to outside than is
>> the wall.
>>
>> I notice in my Cassell's German dictionary that, besides 'drau�en', German
>> has
>> the word 'Freie,' which means 'open air', and that 'im Freien' means
>> 'outdoors'.
>> Do you suppose that 'Freie' is related to the adj. 'frei,' 'free'?
>>
>> Charlie
>>
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.8. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:19 pm ((PST))
On 2012-02-15 21:54, Carsten Becker wrote:
> The word for 'outside' or 'outdoors' in German is_draußen_, i.e. *thereout,
> so no need to have doors if you speak German, as long as there's an 'inside'
> (_drinnen_) to distinguish it from.
Swedish also has the adverbs _ute_ and _inne_, related
to the prepositions _ut_ 'out/to the outside' and _in_
'in (lative)/to the inside' (German "raus" and "rein"),
but there are also the adverbs _utomhus_ and _inomhus_
which actually mean 'outdoors' and 'indoors', and are
for most purposes fully interchangeable with _ute_ and
_inne_.
There is a simple preposition _i_ for 'in' (locative),
as well as a bunch of compound prepositions/adverbs
_inuti_ 'inside (a container)' (interesting compound
that!), _utanpå_ 'on the outside of', _utanför_ '(just)
outside', _innanför_ 'inside', _in i_ 'into', _ut ur_
'out of'.
Interestingly _utan_ means 'without/lacking' and
_innan_ is 'before', only slightly different in meaning
from 'före' with which it shares the antonym _efter_.
_Inom_ means 'within' and _utom_ means 'except', except
in a few set phrases where it means 'outside'.
_Insida_ and _utsida_ are only nouns, but enter various
prepositional phrases, like _på insidan/utsidan av_
which is cognate with and means the same as _(up)on the
inside/outside of_.
The other Scandinavian langs have their own assortments
of identical or similar cognate, mostly overlapping terms.
I really ought to look into this semantic space in the
Sohlob languages and mess it up real nice! :-)
/bpj
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.9. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:26 pm ((PST))
On 2012-02-16 10:02, Peter Cyrus wrote:
> I think there is, among natlangs, some ambiguity between whether their
> "door" refers to the hole in the wall or the thing that blocks it,
Swedish _dörr_ normally covers both. There is _dörröppning_ for
the hole, if one needs to be specific. It has shades of you being
on the dark inside, seeing someone coming through the opening
from the light outside, except for carpenters and architects.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (29)
________________________________________________________________________
2.10. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:50 pm ((PST))
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:02:29 +0100, Peter Cyrus <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I think there is, among natlangs, some ambiguity between whether their
>"door" refers to the hole in the wall or the thing that blocks it,
>
The AHD gives both as meanings for "door". If I need to emphasis the hole as
opposed to the thing that blocks it, I say "doorway".
Charlie
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.11. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:39 am ((PST))
I think in German, the "default" meaning is the opening, so English "door"
as a direct translation of "Tür" is not exact.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 2:50 AM, Charlie Brickner <
[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:02:29 +0100, Peter Cyrus <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I think there is, among natlangs, some ambiguity between whether their
> >"door" refers to the hole in the wall or the thing that blocks it,
> >
>
> The AHD gives both as meanings for "door". If I need to emphasis the hole
> as
> opposed to the thing that blocks it, I say "doorway".
>
> Charlie
>
Messages in this topic (29)
________________________________________________________________________
2.12. Re: Outdoors
Posted by: "Toms Deimonds Barvidis" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:24 am ((PST))
This issue seams to be already solved before I, a native Latvian speaker, had
seen the thread :D
Anyway, "ārā" is indeed a locative from an earlier "ārs", meaning "the
outdoors", most definitely related to "āre", an
open, cultivated land, thus probably also with "art" (to plough) and "arkls" (a
plough), as well as Latin "arō" and
English "ear" (not the body part, of course), I suppose.
Nowadays it's usually perceived as an adverb, not a declined form of any noun,
since "ārs" has fallen out of usage
in this meaning; "ārs" is now used to mean an are, 100 square meters.
"Laukā" is also a locative from "lauks", a field.
The opposite concept "inside" is usually "iekšā"; seems like another locative.
Some related words are "iekšas"
(intestine) and "iekš", an archaic preposition meaning "in", usually used
mocking the way Baltic Germans spoke
Latvian and more increasingly with loaned words that can't be declined, though
I find this rather ugly.
Citējot "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>:
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:04 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> In Russian one uses "na ulitse" (on the street) or "na dvore" (in the
>> yard)
>>> for outdoors, sometimes also "za oknom" (beyond the window). In Latvian
>> it
>>> is either arā (outside) or laukā "in the field".
>>>
>>
>> "Arā" looks like a locative. What is the nominative and what does it mean?
>>
>
> For me too, but I'm no champion it Latvian. There is no "aris" or "arus"
> in the dictionalry, and the only meaning of "ars" is 100m2. Thuogh there
> are particles "ar"="with" and "arī"="too". I can fancy that *arus may be
> cognate with "agros", since "lauks" should be of the same origin as Russian
> "lug" - "meadow".
>
> stevo
>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Charlie Brickner <
>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's 60° here in the Blue Ridge Mountains today and, as I was visiting
>>> our
>>>> shut-
>>>> ins, I was enjoying the winter outdoors.
>>>>
>>>> The thought occurred to me that you can't say "outdoors" unless your
>>>> culture
>>>> has doors! If your conculture is so primitive as not to have doors,
>> how
>>>> do you
>>>> express the concept of "outdoors" in your conlang?
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>
>>
Messages in this topic (29)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: bird names
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:23 am ((PST))
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 18:08:40 -0600
Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> I decided, today, that I need a word for the swift in Carrajina,
> The only cluster there is the one comprising Italian, Piedmontese,
> Sardinian and Sicilian, but I lack good etymological sources for those
> languages, so I'm more or less stuck.
Italian rondone < rondine "swallow" < L. hirundo < Gk chelidon
"[insect] catcher" (see http://www.etimo.it/)
> The biggest surprise to me, was that the four Iberian languages
> (normally so similar in vocab choices) ALL strike out in vastly
> different directions.
Spanish vencejo < *honcejo < hoz < Lat. falx "sickle", perhaps
referring to the wings (see http://www.rae.es/rae.html)
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: progressive vocabulary stories
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:16 pm ((PST))
The translation exercises in the Reading Greek books? The English versions
might serve, although it'll lean you heavily toward connectives, since
they're designed apparently on the principle of "throw the particles at the
learners right away, so they don't drown in men de oun later."
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 8:23 AM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> McGuffey readers? I'm not a fan of them, but they might be like what you
> want.
>
> stevo
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Jerry Muelver <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I would like to push beyond "The cat sees the mouse under the table"
> > for vocabulary development and practice lessons for my conlang. I have
> > a basic vocabulary of 1200 words built on a relex of English Dolch and
> > Swadesh lists, extended to 3700 words on English usage-frequency
> > lists. I am now looking for stories of progressive difficulty to
> > translate for parallel text, or "use the dictionary for unfamiliar
> > words", language development exercises.
> >
> > I've been looking at fairy tales, folk tales, myths, and legends, but
> > haven't found a ready-made set of progressive-vocabulary examples.
> > Does such a thing exist in public domain or Creative Commons license?
> >
> > ---- Jerry Muelver http://llmj.wikispaces.com
> >
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (3)
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