There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Siye Babel Text
From: David McCann
2a. Re: Coining New Words in Language Families
From: John Vertical
3a. opossum - opossa
From: A. da Mek
3b. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Adam Walker
3c. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Daniel Bowman
3d. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Garth Wallace
3e. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Adam Walker
3f. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Daniel Bowman
3g. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Eugene Oh
3h. Re: opossum - opossa
From: [email protected]
3i. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Krista Casada
3j. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
3k. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Daniel Bowman
3l. Re: opossum - opossa
From: BPJ
3m. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Larry Sulky
3n. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Leland Kusmer
3o. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Armin Buch
3p. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Eugene Oh
3q. Re: opossum - opossa
From: Padraic Brown
4.1. Re: quick vocab/sociology survey
From: John Vertical
5a. Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
From: Krista Casada
5b. Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
From: Fredrik Ekman
5c. Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
From: Michael Everson
5d. Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
From: Krista Casada
5e. Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
From: BPJ
Messages
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1a. Re: Siye Babel Text
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:38 am ((PST))
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:54:14 -0500
Anthony Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> Does this copy of the text look better?
No. You're still using a Windows character set, according to the
message header, and the Brown server is converting into things like
"ũkekelonei" all the time.
OT: Why does one find so many people using old encodings with Windows,
19 years after Unicode was introduced? According to Wikipedia (I've no
personal experience of Windows), Unicode was adopted for Windows NT and
is retrospectively available for W95! Very odd.
Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. Re: Coining New Words in Language Families
Posted by: "John Vertical" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:19 am ((PST))
/delurking
I would add to this topic that the distinction between loanwords and "ex
nihilo" coinages makes little difference from a language internal
perspectiv. Words like "banana", "ketchup", "tsunami" can in Western
languages be treated largely as simply having appeared one day fully formed.
So if your Elves 1) do have someplace to loan words from, and 2) you have
not sketched these languages out yet, then you can essentially just coin
words, and declare them loanwords if you ever get on an etymology bender.
One possible difference is that with large-scale loaning from a single
source (or multiple related sources), various words related in the loaning
language may end up taken over English is the poster child for this,
having even assimilated such vast amounts of Latinate morphology that much
of it has become productiv.
Morphological derivation is also important of course, but something I have
not seen noted is the degree of arbitrariness morphological derivation may
entail. Deminutive suffixes are a typical example. English, for example,
allows deriving terms for persons with the suffix -ie. Yet the relation of
"townie", "cabbie", "foodie", "hippie", "hottie" to "town", "cab", "food",
"hip", "hot" is anything but systematic
Derivational suffixes also need not to go back to any content words in
particular: they can be taken from loanwords with unfamiliar shapes (I think
English -o as in "journo", "kiddo", etc. is basically case of this), or come
about more or less ex nihilo, via ex tempore formations such as nicknames
and slang. And once there are a few of them "in the play", they can of
course combine to form longer suffixes, which can be slang-truncated for
form yet further suffixes, etc. These processes are bound to focus on
somewhat common phonemes and phoneme combination, tho; thus, a deminutiv -ka
is fairly likely to crop up in any random language on Earth, while a
deminutiv -sfri would surely be an immediately identifiable one-language
idiosyncracy.
J.
Messages in this topic (19)
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3a. opossum - opossa
Posted by: "A. da Mek" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:48 am ((PST))
>> I don't think most people in the US know that "opossum" is a Native word
> OTOH I wonder how many think _**opossa_ is a possible plural...
This may be a good inspiration for a condialect:
drum - dra, gum - ga, slum - sla, sum - sa
also:
blouse - blice, house - hice, spouse - spice
Messages in this topic (17)
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3b. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:39 am ((PST))
Oh come now! Everyone knows the plural of _possum_ is _possumuses_!
Adam
2012/2/23 A. da Mek <[email protected]>
> I don't think most people in the US know that "opossum" is a Native word
>>>
>> OTOH I wonder how many think _**opossa_ is a possible plural...
>>
>
> This may be a good inspiration for a condialect:
>
> drum - dra, gum - ga, slum - sla, sum - sa
>
> also:
> blouse - blice, house - hice, spouse - spice
Messages in this topic (17)
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3c. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:39 am ((PST))
arrive -> arrove
I arrive. I have arrove.
I actually make that mistake sometimes.
glide->glid
The swans glid along.
2012/2/23 A. da Mek <[email protected]>
> I don't think most people in the US know that "opossum" is a Native word
>>>
>> OTOH I wonder how many think _**opossa_ is a possible plural...
>>
>
> This may be a good inspiration for a condialect:
>
> drum - dra, gum - ga, slum - sla, sum - sa
>
> also:
> blouse - blice, house - hice, spouse - spice
Messages in this topic (17)
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3d. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:44 am ((PST))
2012/2/23 A. da Mek <[email protected]>:
>>> I don't think most people in the US know that "opossum" is a Native word
>>
>> OTOH I wonder how many think _**opossa_ is a possible plural...
>
>
> This may be a good inspiration for a condialect:
>
> drum - dra, gum - ga, slum - sla, sum - sa
>
> also:
> blouse - blice, house - hice, spouse - spice
A very ogdennashian condialect.
I have seen the -ouse/-ice analogy used in jest on many occasions for
humor, but not systematically.
Messages in this topic (17)
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3e. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:09 am ((PST))
That should clearly be "arrivven". Arrive > Arrove > Arrivven I have
arrivven, but I still don't see you.
Adam
2012/2/23 Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> arrive -> arrove
>
> I arrive. I have arrove.
>
> I actually make that mistake sometimes.
>
> glide->glid
>
> The swans glid along.
>
> 2012/2/23 A. da Mek <[email protected]>
>
> > I don't think most people in the US know that "opossum" is a Native
> word
> >>>
> >> OTOH I wonder how many think _**opossa_ is a possible plural...
> >>
> >
> > This may be a good inspiration for a condialect:
> >
> > drum - dra, gum - ga, slum - sla, sum - sa
> >
> > also:
> > blouse - blice, house - hice, spouse - spice
>
Messages in this topic (17)
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3f. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:33 am ((PST))
Yeah, I realized I had made a mistake.
I arrive. I arrove. I have arriven.
The swan glides. The swan glid. The swan has glided? Glidded?
2012/2/23 Adam Walker <[email protected]>
> That should clearly be "arrivven". Arrive > Arrove > Arrivven I have
> arrivven, but I still don't see you.
>
> Adam
>
> 2012/2/23 Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
>
> > arrive -> arrove
> >
> > I arrive. I have arrove.
> >
> > I actually make that mistake sometimes.
> >
> > glide->glid
> >
> > The swans glid along.
> >
> > 2012/2/23 A. da Mek <[email protected]>
> >
> > > I don't think most people in the US know that "opossum" is a Native
> > word
> > >>>
> > >> OTOH I wonder how many think _**opossa_ is a possible plural...
> > >>
> > >
> > > This may be a good inspiration for a condialect:
> > >
> > > drum - dra, gum - ga, slum - sla, sum - sa
> > >
> > > also:
> > > blouse - blice, house - hice, spouse - spice
> >
>
Messages in this topic (17)
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3g. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:35 am ((PST))
Glidden, without a doubt.
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
On 23 Feb 2012, at 19:33, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yeah, I realized I had made a mistake.
>
> I arrive. I arrove. I have arriven.
>
> The swan glides. The swan glid. The swan has glided? Glidded?
>
> 2012/2/23 Adam Walker <[email protected]>
>
>> That should clearly be "arrivven". Arrive > Arrove > Arrivven I have
>> arrivven, but I still don't see you.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> 2012/2/23 Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
>>
>>> arrive -> arrove
>>>
>>> I arrive. I have arrove.
>>>
>>> I actually make that mistake sometimes.
>>>
>>> glide->glid
>>>
>>> The swans glid along.
>>>
>>> 2012/2/23 A. da Mek <[email protected]>
>>>
>>>> I don't think most people in the US know that "opossum" is a Native
>>> word
>>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH I wonder how many think _**opossa_ is a possible plural...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This may be a good inspiration for a condialect:
>>>>
>>>> drum - dra, gum - ga, slum - sla, sum - sa
>>>>
>>>> also:
>>>> blouse - blice, house - hice, spouse - spice
>>>
>>
Messages in this topic (17)
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3h. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "[email protected]" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:42 am ((PST))
Daniel Bowman wrote:
>
> Yeah, I realized I had made a mistake.
>
> I arrive. I arrove. I have arriven.
>
> The swan glides. The swan glid. The swan has glided? Glidded?
Wouldn't this be:
The swan glides. The swan glode. The swan has glidden.
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (17)
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3i. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Krista Casada" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:06 pm ((PST))
The important thing is, after you'd arriven, did you dance with the one what
brung you??
Krista
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, February 23, 2012 1:33 pm
Subject: Re: opossum - opossa
To: [email protected]
> Yeah, I realized I had made a mistake.
>
> I arrive. I arrove. I have arriven.
>
> The swan glides. The swan glid. The swan has glided? Glidded?
>
> 2012/2/23 Adam Walker <[email protected]>
>
> > That should clearly be "arrivven". Arrive > Arrove > Arrivven I
> have> arrivven, but I still don't see you.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > 2012/2/23 Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> >
> > > arrive -> arrove
> > >
> > > I arrive. I have arrove.
> > >
> > > I actually make that mistake sometimes.
> > >
> > > glide->glid
> > >
> > > The swans glid along.
> > >
> > > 2012/2/23 A. da Mek <[email protected]>
> > >
> > > > I don't think most people in the US know that "opossum" is
> a Native
> > > word
> > > >>>
> > > >> OTOH I wonder how many think _**opossa_ is a possible
> plural...> > >>
> > > >
> > > > This may be a good inspiration for a condialect:
> > > >
> > > > drum - dra, gum - ga, slum - sla, sum - sa
> > > >
> > > > also:
> > > > blouse - blice, house - hice, spouse - spice
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (17)
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3j. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:20 pm ((PST))
+1
Sent from my iPhone
On 23 Feb 2012, at 19:52, Krista Casada <[email protected]> wrote:
> The important thing is, after you'd arriven, did you dance with the one what
> brung you??
>
> Krista
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> Date: Thursday, February 23, 2012 1:33 pm
> Subject: Re: opossum - opossa
> To: [email protected]
>
>> Yeah, I realized I had made a mistake.
>>
>> I arrive. I arrove. I have arriven.
>>
>> The swan glides. The swan glid. The swan has glided? Glidded?
>>
>> 2012/2/23 Adam Walker <[email protected]>
>>
>>> That should clearly be "arrivven". Arrive > Arrove > Arrivven I
>> have> arrivven, but I still don't see you.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> 2012/2/23 Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
>>>
>>>> arrive -> arrove
>>>>
>>>> I arrive. I have arrove.
>>>>
>>>> I actually make that mistake sometimes.
>>>>
>>>> glide->glid
>>>>
>>>> The swans glid along.
>>>>
>>>> 2012/2/23 A. da Mek <[email protected]>
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think most people in the US know that "opossum" is
>> a Native
>>>> word
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> OTOH I wonder how many think _**opossa_ is a possible
>> plural...> > >>
>>>>>
>>>>> This may be a good inspiration for a condialect:
>>>>>
>>>>> drum - dra, gum - ga, slum - sla, sum - sa
>>>>>
>>>>> also:
>>>>> blouse - blice, house - hice, spouse - spice
>>>>
>>>
>>
Messages in this topic (17)
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3k. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:25 pm ((PST))
We glid together quite elegantly, for a pair who had never glidden together
before.
> The important thing is, after you'd arriven, did you dance with the one
> what brung you??
> >
> > Krista
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> > Date: Thursday, February 23, 2012 1:33 pm
> > Subject: Re: opossum - opossa
> > To: [email protected]
> >
> >> Yeah, I realized I had made a mistake.
> >>
> >> I arrive. I arrove. I have arriven.
> >>
> >> The swan glides. The swan glid. The swan has glided? Glidded?
> >>
> >> 2012/2/23 Adam Walker <[email protected]>
> >>
> >>> That should clearly be "arrivven". Arrive > Arrove > Arrivven I
> >> have> arrivven, but I still don't see you.
> >>>
> >>> Adam
> >>>
> >>> 2012/2/23 Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> >>>
> >>>> arrive -> arrove
> >>>>
> >>>> I arrive. I have arrove.
> >>>>
> >>>> I actually make that mistake sometimes.
> >>>>
> >>>> glide->glid
> >>>>
> >>>> The swans glid along.
> >>>>
> >>>> 2012/2/23 A. da Mek <[email protected]>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I don't think most people in the US know that "opossum" is
> >> a Native
> >>>> word
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> OTOH I wonder how many think _**opossa_ is a possible
> >> plural...> > >>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This may be a good inspiration for a condialect:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> drum - dra, gum - ga, slum - sla, sum - sa
> >>>>>
> >>>>> also:
> >>>>> blouse - blice, house - hice, spouse - spice
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (17)
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3l. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:20 pm ((PST))
On 2012-02-23 20:33, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> Yeah, I realized I had made a mistake.
You mean you realouze you heve maken a mistake, surely!
> I arrive. I arrove. I have arriven.
Which the verb dynameter appreave of!
/bpj
Messages in this topic (17)
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3m. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:01 pm ((PST))
The financial heads in my company use "spend" as a noun ("an amount
spent"). I'm trying to convince them that, following the pattern:
"lend", "lent", "loan" // "spend", "spent",...
the word they're looking for is "spoan".
On 2/23/12, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2012-02-23 20:33, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>> Yeah, I realized I had made a mistake.
>
> You mean you realouze you heve maken a mistake, surely!
>
>> I arrive. I arrove. I have arriven.
>
> Which the verb dynameter appreave of!
>
> /bpj
>
--
*Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I can
hear her breathing. -- Arundhati Roy*
Messages in this topic (17)
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3n. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Leland Kusmer" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:14 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Larry Sulky <[email protected]> wrote:
> The financial heads in my company use "spend" as a noun ("an amount
> spent"). I'm trying to convince them that, following the pattern:
>
> "lend", "lent", "loan" // "spend", "spent",...
>
> the word they're looking for is "spoan".
>
>
That clearly gives us "send" > "sent" > "soan" as a catch-all noun covering
email, snailmail, etc. Also "rend" > "rent" > "roan" for something that has
been torn up, "moan" for something that has been fixed, and "boan" for
something made crooked.
-lp
Messages in this topic (17)
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3o. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Armin Buch" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:19 pm ((PST))
There you go...
http://verben.texttheater.net/Englisch (a long list of irregularized
English verbs)
Am 23.02.2012 23:01, schrieb Larry Sulky:
> The financial heads in my company use "spend" as a noun ("an amount
> spent"). I'm trying to convince them that, following the pattern:
>
> "lend", "lent", "loan" // "spend", "spent",...
>
> the word they're looking for is "spoan".
>
> On 2/23/12, BPJ<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 2012-02-23 20:33, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>>> Yeah, I realized I had made a mistake.
>>
>> You mean you realouze you heve maken a mistake, surely!
>>
>>> I arrive. I arrove. I have arriven.
>>
>> Which the verb dynameter appreave of!
>>
>> /bpj
>>
>
>
Messages in this topic (17)
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3p. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:28 pm ((PST))
I can't decide which I like better:
backup bokeup bakenup
or
hitchhike hatchhoke hutchhicken
or
pair pore porn
or
shave shoov shiven
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
On 23 Feb 2012, at 22:19, Armin Buch <[email protected]> wrote:
> There you go...
>
> http://verben.texttheater.net/Englisch (a long list of irregularized English
> verbs)
>
> Am 23.02.2012 23:01, schrieb Larry Sulky:
>> The financial heads in my company use "spend" as a noun ("an amount
>> spent"). I'm trying to convince them that, following the pattern:
>>
>> "lend", "lent", "loan" // "spend", "spent",...
>>
>> the word they're looking for is "spoan".
>>
>> On 2/23/12, BPJ<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 2012-02-23 20:33, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>>>> Yeah, I realized I had made a mistake.
>>>
>>> You mean you realouze you heve maken a mistake, surely!
>>>
>>>> I arrive. I arrove. I have arriven.
>>>
>>> Which the verb dynameter appreave of!
>>>
>>> /bpj
>>>
>>
>>
Messages in this topic (17)
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3q. Re: opossum - opossa
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:23 pm ((PST))
--- On Thu, 2/23/12, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Yeah, I realized I had made a mistake.
> > I arrive. I arrove. I have arriven.
> > The swan glides. The swan glid. The swan
> > has glided? Glidded?
>
> Wouldn't this be:
>
> The swan glides. The swan glode. The swan has glidden.
That's the one I use (internal ideolect). Agree with Adam on arrive,
arrove, arrivven.
Padraic
> --Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (17)
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4.1. Re: quick vocab/sociology survey
Posted by: "John Vertical" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:49 am ((PST))
Ah, I met this test a few months ago. Got 28400 then, not bad for a
non-nativ speaker at all
but certainly understandable given that I've
probably communicated more in English than Finnish since my late teens (ie.
the last 10 years).
As for Finnish, a little approximation: I've an official Modern Finnish
wordlist in analysis that lists 94100 basic, derived, compound, and
loanwords; I've forked a sublist of 39400 noncompound, not-100%-predictable
derivativs (tho still including some highly productiv suffixes), in which
I've noted about 500 words not known to me. (Might rise a bit from there,
but the number's definitely in the triple digits.) Of course, the original
list could easily be amended by another 100k rarer/dialectal/technical words
Word *roots* are rather fewer in Finnish than English, tho; the list
contains probably around 5000 of them, and up to 130 lexemes may be based on
the most productiv few. (OT, but for a taster, these can be as various as
eg. √ete- "fore, forward" > _edistys_ "progress", _esine_ "object",
_etuus_
"benefit", _etelä_ "south".)
J.
Messages in this topic (62)
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5a. Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
Posted by: "Krista Casada" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:06 pm ((PST))
Along with the Tolkien resource listed below, you might consult
ardalambion.com. I have the book, too, and really like it, but they claim it
contains a significant number of errors.
Krista
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. M. DeSantis" <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:32 am
Subject: Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
To: [email protected]
> Armin Buch,
>
> I'm not certain if you are looking for scientific literature on
> specific
> conlangs or on the creation of conlangs. If it's the former, the
> only
> book I have on a specific conlang is a small volume (about 200
> pages)
> called _The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth_ by Ruth S. Noel
> (Tolkien is where I started). It offers more detail than the bits
> on
> pronunciation and writing in the back of _The Lord of the Rings_,
> and
> covers many of Tolkien's languages, but mostly Quenya and
> Sindarin.
> Though, at so few pages, I'm not certain it would entirely
> classify as
> "scientific" there is quite a bit of information in there.
>
> As for the second possibility (the creation of conlangs) other
> than some
> articles (most of which are on the front page of
> http://conlang.org/)
> I've read Mark Rosenfelder's book, _The Language Construction
> Kit_,
> which deals both with the non-linguist's approach to creating
> languages
> and some more scientific linguistic approaches and considerations.
> What's more, Rosenfelder's book has an analysis (albeit by
> himself) of
> one of his constructed languages, Kebreni. So, if you're looking
> information on specific conlangs, it might be worth checking this
> book
> out anyway. Also _Create Your Own Language_ by Holly Lislie
> (available
> only as an e-book), though I'm not certain of it's scientific merit.
>
> Of course, I can't say that any of these books are in German
> (though one
> or two might be), but I imagine by your e-mail you have a firm
> grasp on
> English. Either way, I hope those help, and good luck with the
> class.
> All the best.
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> J. M. DeSantis
> Writer - Illustrator
>
> Website: jmdesantis.com <http://www.jmdesantis.com>
> Figmunds: figmunds.com <http://www.figmunds.com>
> Game-Flush (A Humorous Video Game Site): game-flush.com
> <http://www.game-flush.com>
>
> On 2/23/2012 9:08 AM, Armin Buch wrote:
> > Greetings!
> >
> > (This is my first post to the list. It is not my purpose to
> violate any
> > of your conventions/rules here.)
> >
> > Starting in mid-April, I am offering a course on constructed
> languages> at Tübingen University (Germany), with only as much
> emphasis on
> > Esperanto as needed (e.g. to study spontaneous, internal
> language change
> > in a conlang). The course is explicitly _not_ about international
> > languages (whether natural or constructed).
> >
> > To me it appears that research on conlangs is usually done in
> Esperanto,> on Esperanto/another auxlang, advocating it; and there
> is little else. I
> > am looking for this "else": scientific literature on constructed
> > languages, especially on fictional languages. I am grateful for any
> > hints, or other relevant resources. (I am already well equipped with
> > lists of conlangs, and descriptions of individual conlangs.)
> >
> > I am of course willing to share all my findings and results of
> teaching> this course to anyone interested. Course materials will
> be available
> > online.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Armin Buch
> >
> >
> > PS: This is my list so far. I haven't read them yet - does
> anyone know
> > them?
> >
> > Haupenthal, Reinhard [editor]
> > Plansprachen
> > Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchsellgeschaft, 1976
> >
> > Large, Andrew
> > The artificial language movement
> > Oxford& New York: Blackwell, 1985, 1987
> >
> > Meyers, Walter E.
> > Aliens and linguists. Language study and science fiction.
> > Athens [Georgia]: University of Georgia Press, 1980
> >
> > Barker, Muhammad Ab-dal-Rahman
> > The Tsolyani language
> > Minneapolis: Barker, 1978
> >
> > Allesandro Bausani (1970): Geheim- und Universalsprachen:
> Entwicklung> und Typologie
> >
> > Detlev Blanke (1977): Zur wissenschaftlichen Beschäftigung mit
> > Plansprachen I& II, Zeitschrift für Phonetik,
> Sprachwissenschaft und
> > Kommunikationsforschung, vol. 30, p. 122-133& 389-398.
> >
> > The following ones are suggestions from amazon:
> >
> > In the Land of Invented Languages: Esperanto Rock Stars, Klingon
> Poets,> Loglan Lovers, and the Mad Dreamers Who Tried to Build A
> Perfect> Language - Arika Okrent
> >
> > In the Land of Invented Languages: Adventures in Linguistic
> Creativity,> Madness, and Genius - Arika Okrent
> >
> > > From Elvish to Klingon: Exploring Invented Languages - Michael
> Adams>
> > A Dictionary of Made-Up Languages: From Adunaic to Elvish, Zaum to
> > Klingon -- The Anwa (Real) Origins of Invented Lexicons -
> Stephen D.
> > Rogers
> >
> >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
Posted by: "Fredrik Ekman" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:33 pm ((PST))
Here is a paper about Klingon speakers. Quite interesting.
http://www.lu.se/o.o.i.s?id=19464&postid=1355045
The web page is partially in Swedish, but you guys are supposed to be
skilled with language. I am sure you will figure it out. The paper itself
is in English.
I am not sure how hard the difinition on "scientific" is in this thread. I
wrote a pseudo-scientific analysis of an artlang from the 19th century
novel Across the Zodiac. It was published in the magazine Invented
Languages. It can be ordered here:
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/invented-languages-1/2838506
Fredrik
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:33 pm ((PST))
On 23 Feb 2012, at 07:55, Krista Casada wrote:
> Along with the Tolkien resource listed below, you might consult
> ardalambion.com.
You mean http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/
But the Ardalambion crowd are interested in Neo-Quenya, which is a very
different thing from the study of what Tolkien actually did. That scholarly
work is ongoing; see http://www.eldalamberon.com/
> I have the book, too, and really like it, but they claim it contains a
> significant number of errors.
> Krista
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J. M. DeSantis" <[email protected]>
> Date: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:32 am
> Subject: Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
> To: [email protected]
>
>> Armin Buch,
>>
>> I'm not certain if you are looking for scientific literature on
>> specific
>> conlangs or on the creation of conlangs. If it's the former, the
>> only
>> book I have on a specific conlang is a small volume (about 200
>> pages)
>> called _The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth_ by Ruth S. Noel
>> (Tolkien is where I started). It offers more detail than the bits
>> on
>> pronunciation and writing in the back of _The Lord of the Rings_,
>> and
>> covers many of Tolkien's languages, but mostly Quenya and
>> Sindarin.
>> Though, at so few pages, I'm not certain it would entirely
>> classify as
>> "scientific" there is quite a bit of information in there.
>>
>> As for the second possibility (the creation of conlangs) other
>> than some
>> articles (most of which are on the front page of
>> http://conlang.org/)
>> I've read Mark Rosenfelder's book, _The Language Construction
>> Kit_,
>> which deals both with the non-linguist's approach to creating
>> languages
>> and some more scientific linguistic approaches and considerations.
>> What's more, Rosenfelder's book has an analysis (albeit by
>> himself) of
>> one of his constructed languages, Kebreni. So, if you're looking
>> information on specific conlangs, it might be worth checking this
>> book
>> out anyway. Also _Create Your Own Language_ by Holly Lislie
>> (available
>> only as an e-book), though I'm not certain of it's scientific merit.
>>
>> Of course, I can't say that any of these books are in German
>> (though one
>> or two might be), but I imagine by your e-mail you have a firm
>> grasp on
>> English. Either way, I hope those help, and good luck with the
>> class.
>> All the best.
>>
>> --
>> Sincerely,
>> J. M. DeSantis
>> Writer - Illustrator
>>
>> Website: jmdesantis.com <http://www.jmdesantis.com>
>> Figmunds: figmunds.com <http://www.figmunds.com>
>> Game-Flush (A Humorous Video Game Site): game-flush.com
>> <http://www.game-flush.com>
>>
>> On 2/23/2012 9:08 AM, Armin Buch wrote:
>>> Greetings!
>>>
>>> (This is my first post to the list. It is not my purpose to
>> violate any
>>> of your conventions/rules here.)
>>>
>>> Starting in mid-April, I am offering a course on constructed
>> languages> at Tübingen University (Germany), with only as much
>> emphasis on
>>> Esperanto as needed (e.g. to study spontaneous, internal
>> language change
>>> in a conlang). The course is explicitly _not_ about international
>>> languages (whether natural or constructed).
>>>
>>> To me it appears that research on conlangs is usually done in
>> Esperanto,> on Esperanto/another auxlang, advocating it; and there
>> is little else. I
>>> am looking for this "else": scientific literature on constructed
>>> languages, especially on fictional languages. I am grateful for any
>>> hints, or other relevant resources. (I am already well equipped with
>>> lists of conlangs, and descriptions of individual conlangs.)
>>>
>>> I am of course willing to share all my findings and results of
>> teaching> this course to anyone interested. Course materials will
>> be available
>>> online.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Armin Buch
>>>
>>>
>>> PS: This is my list so far. I haven't read them yet - does
>> anyone know
>>> them?
>>>
>>> Haupenthal, Reinhard [editor]
>>> Plansprachen
>>> Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchsellgeschaft, 1976
>>>
>>> Large, Andrew
>>> The artificial language movement
>>> Oxford& New York: Blackwell, 1985, 1987
>>>
>>> Meyers, Walter E.
>>> Aliens and linguists. Language study and science fiction.
>>> Athens [Georgia]: University of Georgia Press, 1980
>>>
>>> Barker, Muhammad Ab-dal-Rahman
>>> The Tsolyani language
>>> Minneapolis: Barker, 1978
>>>
>>> Allesandro Bausani (1970): Geheim- und Universalsprachen:
>> Entwicklung> und Typologie
>>>
>>> Detlev Blanke (1977): Zur wissenschaftlichen Beschäftigung mit
>>> Plansprachen I& II, Zeitschrift für Phonetik,
>> Sprachwissenschaft und
>>> Kommunikationsforschung, vol. 30, p. 122-133& 389-398.
>>>
>>> The following ones are suggestions from amazon:
>>>
>>> In the Land of Invented Languages: Esperanto Rock Stars, Klingon
>> Poets,> Loglan Lovers, and the Mad Dreamers Who Tried to Build A
>> Perfect> Language - Arika Okrent
>>>
>>> In the Land of Invented Languages: Adventures in Linguistic
>> Creativity,> Madness, and Genius - Arika Okrent
>>>
>>>> From Elvish to Klingon: Exploring Invented Languages - Michael
>> Adams>
>>> A Dictionary of Made-Up Languages: From Adunaic to Elvish, Zaum to
>>> Klingon -- The Anwa (Real) Origins of Invented Lexicons -
>> Stephen D.
>>> Rogers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
5d. Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
Posted by: "Krista Casada" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:05 pm ((PST))
My goof; many thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Everson <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:33 pm
Subject: Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
To: [email protected]
> On 23 Feb 2012, at 07:55, Krista Casada wrote:
>
> > Along with the Tolkien resource listed below, you might consult
> ardalambion.com.
> You mean http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/
>
> But the Ardalambion crowd are interested in Neo-Quenya, which is a
> very different thing from the study of what Tolkien actually did.
> That scholarly work is ongoing; see http://www.eldalamberon.com/
>
> > I have the book, too, and really like it, but they claim it
> contains a significant number of errors.
> > Krista
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "J. M. DeSantis" <[email protected]>
> > Date: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:32 am
> > Subject: Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
> > To: [email protected]
> >
> >> Armin Buch,
> >>
> >> I'm not certain if you are looking for scientific literature on
> >> specific
> >> conlangs or on the creation of conlangs. If it's the former,
> the
> >> only
> >> book I have on a specific conlang is a small volume (about 200
> >> pages)
> >> called _The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth_ by Ruth S.
> Noel
> >> (Tolkien is where I started). It offers more detail than the
> bits
> >> on
> >> pronunciation and writing in the back of _The Lord of the
> Rings_,
> >> and
> >> covers many of Tolkien's languages, but mostly Quenya and
> >> Sindarin.
> >> Though, at so few pages, I'm not certain it would entirely
> >> classify as
> >> "scientific" there is quite a bit of information in there.
> >>
> >> As for the second possibility (the creation of conlangs) other
> >> than some
> >> articles (most of which are on the front page of
> >> http://conlang.org/)
> >> I've read Mark Rosenfelder's book, _The Language Construction
> >> Kit_,
> >> which deals both with the non-linguist's approach to creating
> >> languages
> >> and some more scientific linguistic approaches and
> considerations.
> >> What's more, Rosenfelder's book has an analysis (albeit by
> >> himself) of
> >> one of his constructed languages, Kebreni. So, if you're
> looking
> >> information on specific conlangs, it might be worth checking
> this
> >> book
> >> out anyway. Also _Create Your Own Language_ by Holly Lislie
> >> (available
> >> only as an e-book), though I'm not certain of it's scientific
> merit.>>
> >> Of course, I can't say that any of these books are in German
> >> (though one
> >> or two might be), but I imagine by your e-mail you have a firm
> >> grasp on
> >> English. Either way, I hope those help, and good luck with the
> >> class.
> >> All the best.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sincerely,
> >> J. M. DeSantis
> >> Writer - Illustrator
> >>
> >> Website: jmdesantis.com <http://www.jmdesantis.com>
> >> Figmunds: figmunds.com <http://www.figmunds.com>
> >> Game-Flush (A Humorous Video Game Site): game-flush.com
> >> <http://www.game-flush.com>
> >>
> >> On 2/23/2012 9:08 AM, Armin Buch wrote:
> >>> Greetings!
> >>>
> >>> (This is my first post to the list. It is not my purpose to
> >> violate any
> >>> of your conventions/rules here.)
> >>>
> >>> Starting in mid-April, I am offering a course on constructed
> >> languages> at Tübingen University (Germany), with only as much
> >> emphasis on
> >>> Esperanto as needed (e.g. to study spontaneous, internal
> >> language change
> >>> in a conlang). The course is explicitly _not_ about international
> >>> languages (whether natural or constructed).
> >>>
> >>> To me it appears that research on conlangs is usually done in
> >> Esperanto,> on Esperanto/another auxlang, advocating it; and
> there
> >> is little else. I
> >>> am looking for this "else": scientific literature on constructed
> >>> languages, especially on fictional languages. I am grateful
> for any
> >>> hints, or other relevant resources. (I am already well
> equipped with
> >>> lists of conlangs, and descriptions of individual conlangs.)
> >>>
> >>> I am of course willing to share all my findings and results of
> >> teaching> this course to anyone interested. Course materials
> will
> >> be available
> >>> online.
> >>>
> >>> Kind regards,
> >>> Armin Buch
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> PS: This is my list so far. I haven't read them yet - does
> >> anyone know
> >>> them?
> >>>
> >>> Haupenthal, Reinhard [editor]
> >>> Plansprachen
> >>> Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchsellgeschaft, 1976
> >>>
> >>> Large, Andrew
> >>> The artificial language movement
> >>> Oxford& New York: Blackwell, 1985, 1987
> >>>
> >>> Meyers, Walter E.
> >>> Aliens and linguists. Language study and science fiction.
> >>> Athens [Georgia]: University of Georgia Press, 1980
> >>>
> >>> Barker, Muhammad Ab-dal-Rahman
> >>> The Tsolyani language
> >>> Minneapolis: Barker, 1978
> >>>
> >>> Allesandro Bausani (1970): Geheim- und Universalsprachen:
> >> Entwicklung> und Typologie
> >>>
> >>> Detlev Blanke (1977): Zur wissenschaftlichen Beschäftigung mit
> >>> Plansprachen I& II, Zeitschrift für Phonetik,
> >> Sprachwissenschaft und
> >>> Kommunikationsforschung, vol. 30, p. 122-133& 389-398.
> >>>
> >>> The following ones are suggestions from amazon:
> >>>
> >>> In the Land of Invented Languages: Esperanto Rock Stars,
> Klingon
> >> Poets,> Loglan Lovers, and the Mad Dreamers Who Tried to Build
> A
> >> Perfect> Language - Arika Okrent
> >>>
> >>> In the Land of Invented Languages: Adventures in Linguistic
> >> Creativity,> Madness, and Genius - Arika Okrent
> >>>
> >>>> From Elvish to Klingon: Exploring Invented Languages -
> Michael
> >> Adams>
> >>> A Dictionary of Made-Up Languages: From Adunaic to Elvish,
> Zaum to
> >>> Klingon -- The Anwa (Real) Origins of Invented Lexicons -
> >> Stephen D.
> >>> Rogers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
5e. Re: Linguistic literature on conlangs
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:20 pm ((PST))
On 2012-02-23 21:31, Michael Everson wrote:
> But the Ardalambion crowd are interested in Neo-Quenya, which is a very
> different thing from the study of what Tolkien actually did. That scholarly
> work is ongoing; seehttp://www.eldalamberon.com/
But which might be an interesting topic in its own right to an
academic studying conlangs as a phenomenon.
BTW one can be interested in Tolkien's languages from both a
paleo- and a neo- angle. And how come reviving a conlang would be
bad, while reviving a natlang would be good? That the two crowds
don't go well together is because of personal chemistry issues
rather than the two pursuits being antithetical. It's not like
noone can do the other if anyone does the one.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (15)
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