There are 14 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. OT: ASL
From: Brian Woodward
1b. Re: OT: ASL
From: David Peterson
1c. Re: OT: ASL
From: Brian Woodward
2a. Re: Historical phonology of Tirelat
From: Herman Miller
3a. Re: Tirelat vowels
From: Herman Miller
3b. Re: Tirelat vowels
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
4.1. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
From: Paul Bennett
4.2. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
From: Sam Stutter
5a. Orthographic Reform
From: Logan Kearsley
5b. Re: Orthographic Reform
From: Patrick Dunn
5c. Re: Orthographic Reform
From: Logan Kearsley
5d. Re: Orthographic Reform
From: Patrick Dunn
5e. Re: Orthographic Reform
From: Alex Fink
5f. Re: Orthographic Reform
From: Jim Henry
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. OT: ASL
Posted by: "Brian Woodward" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:52 am ((PST))
Does anyone know of any good resources online that teach ASL? Something that
would at least teach the basics. Videos are a plus.
Thanks
Brian
Sent from my iPhone
Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: OT: ASL
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:08 pm ((PST))
I can't find the old site I used to use, but this one looks pretty good:
http://www.aslpro.com/
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
On Mar 10, 2012, at 6:52 AM, Brian Woodward wrote:
> Does anyone know of any good resources online that teach ASL? Something that
> would at least teach the basics. Videos are a plus.
>
> Thanks
> Brian
> Sent from my iPhone
Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: OT: ASL
Posted by: "Brian Woodward" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:36 pm ((PST))
This actually looks like a great place to start! Thanks!
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 10, 2012, at 15:07, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
> I can't find the old site I used to use, but this one looks pretty good:
>
> http://www.aslpro.com/
>
> David Peterson
> LCS President
> [email protected]
> www.conlang.org
>
> On Mar 10, 2012, at 6:52 AM, Brian Woodward wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know of any good resources online that teach ASL? Something that
>> would at least teach the basics. Videos are a plus.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Brian
>> Sent from my iPhone
Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Historical phonology of Tirelat
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:12 am ((PST))
On 3/10/2012 5:51 AM, Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones wrote:
> Wouldn't a postalveolar stop be a click? In other words, ANADEW?
No, clicks have a different airstream (velaric ingressive). And
languages with clicks generally have them at more than one point of
articulation, not just postalveolar.
Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. Re: Tirelat vowels
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:20 am ((PST))
I'm continuing to explore the possibility of a simple 5-vowel system for
Early Modern Tirelat (EMT): /a/ /e/ /i/ /o/ /u/. The modern /ë/ and /y/
are derived from EMT /o/ and /u/, except after labial (bilabial and
labiodental) consonants (optionally followed by another consonant),
where they remained as /o/ and /u/.
/u/ | Clab [C] _ > /u/
(otherwise) > /y/
examples:
*banwu > banu "ash"
*Äu > Äy "or" (inclusive)
*fulga > fulġa "soup"
*guri > gyri "magic"
*gwumi > gumi "thick"
*kezul > kezyl "plant"
*kura > kyra "where"
*jazwu > jazu "tomorrow"
*jumi > jymi "uncommon"
*labu > labu "document"
*luma > lyma "to wait for"
*mavu > mavu "dirt"
*muka > muka "light" (weight)
*mrusa > mërusa "to pity"
*numa > nyma "memory"
*pulgi > pulġi "huge"
*tušwi > tyšwi "dust"
*vju > vju "before"
*vruva > vruva "to boil"
*xuhra > xyÅa "to stumble"
/o/ | Clab [C] _ > /o/
(otherwise) > /ë/
examples:
*bokwo > boko "robot"
*Äora > Äëra "knife"
*Äwoba > Äoba "slope"
*dosja > dësja "in front of"
*fopla > fopÅa "ugly"
*govi > gëvi "basic"
*ljorg > ljërg "chain"
*lorvi > lërvi "regular"
*mizwoi > mizoi "finally"
*moža > moža "friend"
*noxil > nëxil "muscle"
*pori > pori "package"
*roki > rëki "to convince"
*sont > sënt "bone"
*to > të "and"
*vor > vor "extent"
*zort > zëÅt "hail"
Here's a list of some apparent exceptions:
byna "to miss"
Ävyba "to print"
fëla "a shame, a pity"
fy "at, on, in, by"
fynda "pillow"
joka "adjacent"
jove "relative" (not absolute)
juht "place"
juhża "self"
kjuli "essential"
kwëna "to hear"
mëri "round"
mëžba "eventually"
my (accusative singular, inanimate article)
myn "resulting in"
myri "turquoise-ultraviolet"
myzi "sleepy"
naju "mortar"
njuÅi "never"
pë "according to"
pyhri "brief, short"
rjuhbi "intelligent"
sjuri "north"
tkwyr "copper"
tovys "characteristic"
vë (locative singular article)
vëka "skin"
vël "but"
vëlwi "bottom"
vy- "they, their"
vyn "ear"
wëhr "thrill"
żopyk "hint"
I think it's possible that unstressed /u/ and /o/ merged with /y/ and
/ë/, which would account for fy, my, myn, pë, vë, vy-, and żopyk. Long
/u/ (romanized as "uh") might come from a diphthong such as /ou/, which
would account for juht and juhża, and /ju/ might have originally been
/iu/. Modern Tirelat does have diphthongs like /au/ and /ei/ (or /aw/,
/ej/), so it's reasonable to assume that EMT had diphthongs as well. I
also have reason to believe that "vëlwi" was originally "vlui".
Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Tirelat vowels
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:35 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:19:45 -0500 Herman Miller wrote:
> I'm continuing to explore the possibility of a simple 5-vowel system for
> Early Modern Tirelat (EMT): /a/ /e/ /i/ /o/ /u/. The modern /ë/ and /y/
> are derived from EMT /o/ and /u/, except after labial (bilabial and
> labiodental) consonants (optionally followed by another consonant),
> where they remained as /o/ and /u/.
>
> /u/ | Clab [C] _ > /u/
> (otherwise) > /y/
Makes perfect sense. What your change amounts to is essentially
a delabialization, and it is reasonable to assume that a preceding
labial consonant blocks it.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (3)
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4.1. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:08 pm ((PST))
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 20:07:51 -0500, Garth Wallace <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:27 AM, Paul Bennett <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> I can see the headlines now. They'd be marginally-more sensationalized
>> versions of the headlines we had when that Indonesian language decided
>> to go with Hangul as its writing system.
>
> Wait, what was this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cia-Cia_language
>> "Amateur linguist teaches Elvish to Ethiopian tribe! Film at eleven!"
>>
>> However, I'm going to give this whackadoo notion at least a little bit
>> of serious thought. Dang it.
>
> You have to admit, it'd be kind of awesome.
It would be kind of awesome. Would it be doing more harm than good? Would
that prevent it from being awesome?
--
Paul
Messages in this topic (29)
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4.2. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:11 pm ((PST))
On 10 Mar 2012, at 21:08, Paul Bennett wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 20:07:51 -0500, Garth Wallace <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:27 AM, Paul Bennett <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>
>>> I can see the headlines now. They'd be marginally-more sensationalized
>>> versions of the headlines we had when that Indonesian language decided to
>>> go with Hangul as its writing system.
>>
>> Wait, what was this?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cia-Cia_language
>
>>> "Amateur linguist teaches Elvish to Ethiopian tribe! Film at eleven!"
>>>
>>> However, I'm going to give this whackadoo notion at least a little bit of
>>> serious thought. Dang it.
>>
>> You have to admit, it'd be kind of awesome.
>
> It would be kind of awesome. Would it be doing more harm than good?
Certainly not if you could tie it in to some bigger issue.
> Would that prevent it from being awesome?
Surely harmful things are more awesome? Like smoking :-P
> --
> Paul
Messages in this topic (29)
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5a. Orthographic Reform
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:28 pm ((PST))
Mev Pailom is restricted to using symbols that can be typed on a
standard American keyboard layout and/or easily typed in a text
message on a cellphone; and I really prefer not re-purposing
non-alphabetic characters as much as possible.
Unfortunately, it has more consonants than the English alphabet has
letters, necessitating the use of digraphs. Or making using upper and
lowercase as separate letters, but that's just unpleasant.
The current arrangement looks like this:
Plosives:
b - /b/ ; p - /p/
d - /d/ ; t - /t/
g - /g/ ; k - /k/
Fricatives:
dd - /D/ ; tt - /T/
v - /v/ ; f - /f/
y - /j\/ ; h - /C/ (using 'y' here because it looks kinda like a gamma)
z - /z/ ; s - /s/
x - /Z/ ; c - /S/
rr - /K\/ ; ll - /K/
Nasals:
m - /m/ ; n - /n/ ; q - /N/
Semivowels:
l - /l/ ; r - /r\/ ; j - /j/ ; w - /w/ ; ' - /?\/
The 'll' is taken from Welsh, and inspired the usage of double letters
for the rest of the digraphs. I really like the look of double
letters, but unfortunately it leads to situations like:
"ddd" - is this /dD/ or /Dd/ ?
And the triple letters are just plain ugly. Actual doubled consonants
make it even worse: "dddd" is a terrible way to write /D:/. I was
thinking of using ":" in the actual orthography to indicate
gemination, but I'm not too fond of re-purposing punctuation like
that, and it fails to capture the fact that doubled consonants only
occur across syllable boundaries.
Another thing that had been bugging me was that, despite the fact that
' is not uncommonly used as a letter, ' has no distinction between
lower and uppercase form. So, I was thinking of using ' as a diacritic
and making replacements thus:
d' - /D/ ; t' - /T/
r' - /K\/ ; l' - /K/
y' - /?\/
Then we have
dd = /d:/
d'd' = /D:/
dd' = /dD/
d'd = /Dd/
This should work, but I'm slightly worried that it will result in
apostrophes littered all over. Maybe it'll grow on me, but I'm kind of
aesthetically allergic to frequent apostrophes, as they smack of bad
fantasy novels.
Any other suggestions / opinions?
-l.
Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: Orthographic Reform
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:33 pm ((PST))
On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>wrote:
> Mev Pailom is restricted to using symbols that can be typed on a
> standard American keyboard layout and/or easily typed in a text
> message on a cellphone; and I really prefer not re-purposing
> non-alphabetic characters as much as possible.
> Unfortunately, it has more consonants than the English alphabet has
> letters, necessitating the use of digraphs. Or making using upper and
> lowercase as separate letters, but that's just unpleasant.
> The current arrangement looks like this:
>
> Plosives:
> b - /b/ ; p - /p/
> d - /d/ ; t - /t/
> g - /g/ ; k - /k/
>
> Fricatives:
> dd - /D/ ; tt - /T/
> v - /v/ ; f - /f/
> y - /j\/ ; h - /C/ (using 'y' here because it looks kinda like a gamma)
> z - /z/ ; s - /s/
> x - /Z/ ; c - /S/
> rr - /K\/ ; ll - /K/
>
> Nasals:
> m - /m/ ; n - /n/ ; q - /N/
>
> Semivowels:
> l - /l/ ; r - /r\/ ; j - /j/ ; w - /w/ ; ' - /?\/
>
> The 'll' is taken from Welsh, and inspired the usage of double letters
> for the rest of the digraphs. I really like the look of double
> letters, but unfortunately it leads to situations like:
>
> "ddd" - is this /dD/ or /Dd/ ?
>
> And the triple letters are just plain ugly. Actual doubled consonants
> make it even worse: "dddd" is a terrible way to write /D:/. I was
> thinking of using ":" in the actual orthography to indicate
> gemination, but I'm not too fond of re-purposing punctuation like
> that, and it fails to capture the fact that doubled consonants only
> occur across syllable boundaries.
>
> Another thing that had been bugging me was that, despite the fact that
> ' is not uncommonly used as a letter, ' has no distinction between
> lower and uppercase form. So, I was thinking of using ' as a diacritic
> and making replacements thus:
>
> d' - /D/ ; t' - /T/
> r' - /K\/ ; l' - /K/
> y' - /?\/
>
> Then we have
>
> dd = /d:/
> d'd' = /D:/
> dd' = /dD/
> d'd = /Dd/
>
> This should work, but I'm slightly worried that it will result in
> apostrophes littered all over. Maybe it'll grow on me, but I'm kind of
> aesthetically allergic to frequent apostrophes, as they smack of bad
> fantasy novels.
>
> Any other suggestions / opinions?
>
>
Why not use {h} in the same way? That'll have the benefit of looking
logical to English speakers, as well.
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (6)
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5c. Re: Orthographic Reform
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:46 pm ((PST))
On 10 March 2012 14:33, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> Why not use {h} in the same way? That'll have the benefit of looking
> logical to English speakers, as well.
Because 'h' is being used as a regular letter; turning it into a
diacritic would require replacing it with something (because, e.g.,
"th" = /tC/ is a valid consonant cluster, so there'd need to be
another symbol to distinguish it from /T/), which would have to be yet
another digraph since I've already run out of letters.
I suppose ', y, h could be replaced with y, gh, kh, but that increases
the number of digraphs by 1. And I'm kind of attached to y = /j\/.
-l.
Messages in this topic (6)
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5d. Re: Orthographic Reform
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:02 pm ((PST))
I see you're using {x} for /S/, but you could use it for /h/ and use {sh}
for /S/.
On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>wrote:
> On 10 March 2012 14:33, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> [...]
> > Why not use {h} in the same way? That'll have the benefit of looking
> > logical to English speakers, as well.
>
> Because 'h' is being used as a regular letter; turning it into a
> diacritic would require replacing it with something (because, e.g.,
> "th" = /tC/ is a valid consonant cluster, so there'd need to be
> another symbol to distinguish it from /T/), which would have to be yet
> another digraph since I've already run out of letters.
>
> I suppose ', y, h could be replaced with y, gh, kh, but that increases
> the number of digraphs by 1. And I'm kind of attached to y = /j\/.
>
> -l.
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
5e. Re: Orthographic Reform
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:47 pm ((PST))
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:28:38 -0700, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>
wrote:
[...]
>The 'll' is taken from Welsh, and inspired the usage of double letters
>for the rest of the digraphs. I really like the look of double
>letters,
You like double letters, you say? And Welsh? Well, here's an off-the-wall
idea based on the Welsh values of <f>, <ff>:
fricatives:
<c> /D/ <cc> /T/ (<c> /D/ as in Fijian!)
<f> /v/ <ff> /f/
<y> /j\/ <yy> /C/
<s> /z/ <ss> /s/
<x> /Z/ <xx> /S/
<l> /K\/ <ll> /K/
and do something for /l/, whether <lh> or just an absurdity like <v> or
whatever.
(I must say <rr> for /K\/ displeases me; 'r' is not to 'l' as voiced is to
voiceless, and I've grown a strong aversion to schemes where all the
consonants are paired, by voice if one can and by something else if not.
But de gustibus disputandum non est.)
Alex
Messages in this topic (6)
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5f. Re: Orthographic Reform
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:03 pm ((PST))
On 3/10/12, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> Unfortunately, it has more consonants than the English alphabet has
> letters, necessitating the use of digraphs. Or making using upper and
So, tell us more about the phonotactics. What consonant clusters are
forbidden? Are there any consonants that don't cluster with anything
else, or are fairly restricted in what they can combine witih? Maybe
that will give you an idea of what you can use to form unambiguous
digraphs without giving up a basic letter which can still represent a
consonant sound of its own, when it occurs between two vowels or at a
word boundary?
If not, I'd suggest you just pick a letter, probably "h" but maybe
something else (there's precedent for using "x"), and use it for
forming digraphs and nothing else, creating a digraph to represent
whatever phoneme that letter represents in the old system.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (6)
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