There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Siye Cases
From: Anthony Miles
1b. Re: Siye Cases
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1c. Re: Siye Cases
From: Padraic Brown
1d. Re: Siye Cases
From: Patrick Dunn
1e. Re: Siye Cases
From: Padraic Brown
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Siye Cases
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:45 pm ((PDT))
Siye
Nouns:
I want to show the List the Siye cases and see if they make sense
(and if not, how to redistribute). Siye has a nominative/ergative
split in the nominals at the personal name/common noun
boundary.
Nominative -0, -me
Absolutive -0
Dative-Accusative -a
Ergative -ya, -na, -e (phonologically conditioned)
Directive -tu
Instrumental -su
Genitive -ne
Possessive -me
Directive -tu
The Nominative -0 is the default suffix; the -me suffix is used in
sentences which have a Nominative subject and an Absolutive
direct object (which is also -0). Technically, the subject suffix is
still -0, which is why the verb retains the original valency; the
process is
umkutu-0 'God-NOM'
mu umkutu-me-0 'something God-POSS-NOM'
umkutu-me 'God-POSS-NOM'
The Possessive seems more animate than the Genitive.
The Absolutive suffix is -0; it is used for the subject of an
intransitive verb and the patient of a transitive verb.
The Ergative suffix has several forms (-he, -ya, -na, -yam). -he
follows a nasal vowel (/Vm/). -ya follows -na- or an oral vowel
(/V/) except -ya-. -na follows -ya- or a syllable containing a nasal
consonant and a oral vowel (/NV/) except -na-.
The Possessive suffix is -me; it is used to indicate possession or
control.
The Genitive suffix is -ne; it is used for various genitive uses. It
cannot be used as a Nominative or Ergative form.
The Dative-Accusative suffix is -a; it is used for the patient of a
transitive verb, as long as the noun or pronoun is within the
nominative portion of the hierarchy. It is also used for the indirect
object of a bitransitive (trivalent) verb for such nouns and
pronouns.
The Directive suffix is -tu; it is used to indicate direction, and the
indirect object of a bitransitive verb if it is not covered by the
Dative-Accusative suffix.
The Instrumental suffix is -su. It is used to indicate with what
someone does something.
The Locative suffix is -kem. It is used to indicate location at. It is
also used with individual locational nouns to form independent
postpositions (e.g., emkem 'inside')
The Ablative suffix is -sum. It is used to indicate motion from,
origin, or cause.
The Comitative suffix is -ni. It is used to indicate accompaniment.
It also means 'and'.
The Equative suffix is -pu. It is used to indicate similarity.
The Adverbiative suffix is -ku. It is used to indicate manner.
The Vocative suffix is -hi. It is normally only used with animates.
-yam and -ki are nominalizing suffixes; -yam creates an active
noun, -ki creates a passive noun. 'liyayam' is 'predator',
and 'liyaki' is 'prey'
Liyayamkaya liyakike ikeyilikame. (All) predators eat (some form
of) prey. -li(ya)- to eat
Liyayampuya liyakika ipuyilikane. One predator ate all of the
prey. -li(ya)- to eat
Umlome yetampakeloha iloleyelone. The men used bricks. -e- to
use
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Siye Cases
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:04 pm ((PDT))
I like the cases.
Nicole Thompson-Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist and Haiku and acrostic writer
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Miles" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:33 PM
Subject: Siye Cases
> Siye
> Nouns:
> I want to show the List the Siye cases and see if they make sense
> (and if not, how to redistribute). Siye has a nominative/ergative
> split in the nominals at the personal name/common noun
> boundary.
> Nominative -0, -me
> Absolutive -0
> Dative-Accusative -a
> Ergative -ya, -na, -e (phonologically conditioned)
> Directive -tu
> Instrumental -su
> Genitive -ne
> Possessive -me
> Directive -tu
>
> The Nominative -0 is the default suffix; the -me suffix is used in
> sentences which have a Nominative subject and an Absolutive
> direct object (which is also -0). Technically, the subject suffix is
> still -0, which is why the verb retains the original valency; the
> process is
> umkutu-0 'God-NOM'
> mu umkutu-me-0 'something God-POSS-NOM'
> umkutu-me 'God-POSS-NOM'
> The Possessive seems more animate than the Genitive.
> The Absolutive suffix is -0; it is used for the subject of an
> intransitive verb and the patient of a transitive verb.
> The Ergative suffix has several forms (-he, -ya, -na, -yam). -he
> follows a nasal vowel (/Vm/). -ya follows -na- or an oral vowel
> (/V/) except -ya-. -na follows -ya- or a syllable containing a nasal
> consonant and a oral vowel (/NV/) except -na-.
> The Possessive suffix is -me; it is used to indicate possession or
> control.
> The Genitive suffix is -ne; it is used for various genitive uses. It
> cannot be used as a Nominative or Ergative form.
> The Dative-Accusative suffix is -a; it is used for the patient of a
> transitive verb, as long as the noun or pronoun is within the
> nominative portion of the hierarchy. It is also used for the indirect
> object of a bitransitive (trivalent) verb for such nouns and
> pronouns.
> The Directive suffix is -tu; it is used to indicate direction, and the
> indirect object of a bitransitive verb if it is not covered by the
> Dative-Accusative suffix.
> The Instrumental suffix is -su. It is used to indicate with what
> someone does something.
> The Locative suffix is -kem. It is used to indicate location at. It is
> also used with individual locational nouns to form independent
> postpositions (e.g., emkem 'inside')
> The Ablative suffix is -sum. It is used to indicate motion from,
> origin, or cause.
> The Comitative suffix is -ni. It is used to indicate accompaniment.
> It also means 'and'.
> The Equative suffix is -pu. It is used to indicate similarity.
> The Adverbiative suffix is -ku. It is used to indicate manner.
> The Vocative suffix is -hi. It is normally only used with animates.
>
> -yam and -ki are nominalizing suffixes; -yam creates an active
> noun, -ki creates a passive noun. 'liyayam' is 'predator',
> and 'liyaki' is 'prey'
> Liyayamkaya liyakike ikeyilikame. (All) predators eat (some form
> of) prey. -li(ya)- to eat
> Liyayampuya liyakika ipuyilikane. One predator ate all of the
> prey. -li(ya)- to eat
> Umlome yetampakeloha iloleyelone. The men used bricks. -e- to
> use
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Siye Cases
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:18 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 3/11/12, Anthony Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> Siye Nouns:
> I want to show the List the Siye cases and see if they make
> sense
> (and if not, how to redistribute). Siye has a
> nominative/ergative
> split in the nominals at the personal name/common noun
> boundary.
> Nominative -0, -me
> Absolutive -0
> Dative-Accusative -a
> Ergative -ya, -na, -e (phonologically conditioned)
> Directive -tu
> Instrumental -su
> Genitive -ne
> Possessive -me
> Directive -tu
>
> The Possessive seems more animate than the Genitive.
This I like, and I think it makes sense. "Possessive" to me sounds like a
volitional, active thing, while "genitive" seems more of a non-volitional
and non-animate process. Of course in English (and Latin and Romance, etc)
we use one case for both, but I like the separation.
> The Directive suffix is -tu; it is used to indicate
> direction, and the
> indirect object of a bitransitive verb if it is not covered
> by the
> Dative-Accusative suffix.
Direction as in motion? Like a combined motion-to / motion-away / motion-
around / motion-within kind of thing?
> The Equative suffix is -pu. It is used to indicate
> similarity.
Interesting. I've seen this with adjectives (O.Ir) but not nouns. Looks
like Sumerian does it with nouns, though. I like it.
> The Adverbiative suffix is -ku. It is used to indicate
> manner.
Is "adverbiative" a real case name?
> The Vocative suffix is -hi. It is normally only used with
> animates.
Are there any instances of grammatically inanimate words that apply to
animate beings? If so, how does Siye handle the vocative for such words?
Padraic
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Siye Cases
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:23 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Sun, 3/11/12, Anthony Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Siye Nouns:
> > I want to show the List the Siye cases and see if they make
> > sense
> > (and if not, how to redistribute). Siye has a
> > nominative/ergative
> > split in the nominals at the personal name/common noun
> > boundary.
> > Nominative -0, -me
> > Absolutive -0
> > Dative-Accusative -a
> > Ergative -ya, -na, -e (phonologically conditioned)
> > Directive -tu
> > Instrumental -su
> > Genitive -ne
> > Possessive -me
> > Directive -tu
> >
> > The Possessive seems more animate than the Genitive.
>
> This I like, and I think it makes sense. "Possessive" to me sounds like a
> volitional, active thing, while "genitive" seems more of a non-volitional
> and non-animate process. Of course in English (and Latin and Romance, etc)
> we use one case for both, but I like the separation.
>
>
Yeah, I like that a lot too. I saw it and for a moment went, "wait a
minute . . . " and then realized I was being Indo-European-centric. The
distinction, once I stopped thinking in English, makes almost intuitive
sense. Nicely done.
It also occurs to me that you could use it in word building, in which the
genitive creates word-units (stick of.fish, for fishing pole) while
possessives do not.
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Siye Cases
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:21 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 3/11/12, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Genitive -ne
> > > Possessive -me
> It also occurs to me that you could use it in word building,
> in which the
> genitive creates word-units (stick of.fish, for fishing
> pole) while possessives do not.
Well, I think the genitive, fish-ne stick, would naturally allude to
Gorton's et al. Not sure if stick-ne fish would work for a rod or not...
I think we'd need an anglitative case for that!
Padraic
Messages in this topic (5)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
