There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Where has Teonaht gone?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1b. Re: Where has Teonaht gone?
From: Tony Harris
1c. Re: Where has Teonaht gone?
From: neo gu
2.1. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: BPJ
2.2. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Alex Fink
2.3. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Gary Shannon
3a. Re: Siye Cases
From: Alex Fink
4a. Re: Tirelat vowels again
From: Alex Fink
Messages
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1a. Re: Where has Teonaht gone?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:38 pm ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:33:21 -0400 Padraic Brown wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]>
wrote:
> > Hallo conlangers!
> >
> > I have found that the address
> >
> > http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/teonaht.html
> >
> > no longer leads anywhere. What has happened?
>
> Wow. Dunno!
>
> I know Sally is okay -- or was as of a couple days ago. Perhaps a
> problem with Frontiernet....
Indeed, it is FrontierNet to blame. Other pages are gone, too.
They have apparently ceased hosting user pages, as GeoCities did
a few years ago. (In both cases, Yahoo! is the actual culprit;
they own FrontierNet.)
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Where has Teonaht gone?
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:46 pm ((PDT))
Wow, is this something they actually told users about ahead of time, or
did users find out when their web sites suddenly vanished?
On 03/14/2012 03:38 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:33:21 -0400 Padraic Brown wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>> Hallo conlangers!
>>>
>>> I have found that the address
>>>
>>> http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/teonaht.html
>>>
>>> no longer leads anywhere. What has happened?
>> Wow. Dunno!
>>
>> I know Sally is okay -- or was as of a couple days ago. Perhaps a
>> problem with Frontiernet....
> Indeed, it is FrontierNet to blame. Other pages are gone, too.
> They have apparently ceased hosting user pages, as GeoCities did
> a few years ago. (In both cases, Yahoo! is the actual culprit;
> they own FrontierNet.)
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: Where has Teonaht gone?
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:47 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 21:12:54 +0100, Jörg Rhiemeier
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hallo conlangers!
>
>I have found that the address
>
>http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/teonaht.html
>
>no longer leads anywhere. What has happened?
>
>--
>... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
>http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
>"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Those pages are currently at
http://www.cavedreaming.com/teonaht.html
Messages in this topic (5)
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2.1. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:48 pm ((PDT))
On 2012-03-13 17:15, Tony Harris wrote:
> Where I live seems to be the opposite situation. Nobody of any
> size wants to put a bookstore in Central Vermont, so all we have
> are the local independents. Which is fine, and they're good
> people and good stores, especially the used ones (which I frequent
> more anyway). But they're all pretty small so often getting
> something online really is the only way anyway.
Here in Sweden the used books trade has almost completely
gone online! New books at least here in Gothenburg is down to
the Big Chain and the Smaller Chain and a few special interest
outlets, some of which belong to small chains too. It's
much the same online: two big actors and a couple of smaller
both on the new and used side. I'm not really up to date because
the books that interest me/which I really need are better had
online from abroad anyway. This started some 15-20 years ago
on the new books side. Offline used (as opposed to rare) books
trade pretty much collapsed about twelve years ago.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.2. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:03 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:06:35 -0700, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 13, 2012, at 8:41 AM, Jim Henry wrote:
>
>> Hmm. Maybe the LCS should offer the Army our professional services to
>> come up with one or more wargame-oriented easy-to-learn engelangs?
>
>LCS or not, I think this makes far more sense. After all, even though
Esperanto is different from English, its vocabulary is largely
Indo-European. That plus a regular grammar would make it easier for an
English speaker to decipheror at least to figure out some key words or
phrasesand that might be enough to figure out what the Aggressor is doing,
in context. It would seem to me that what's called for is a language that's
easy to learn with absolutely no natlang-influecned lexical choices.
Yes, it would seem so. But I would imagine that for this application, the
easier to learn, the better, with no real checking influence, so that an
English relex probably would do quite fine -- that would make it a boring
job for a conlanger. Hearing a lexically totally unfamiliar language, one
can't really discern anything about the syntax, can one?
Alex
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.3. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:23 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:06:35 -0700, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 13, 2012, at 8:41 AM, Jim Henry wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm. Maybe the LCS should offer the Army our professional services to
>>> come up with one or more wargame-oriented easy-to-learn engelangs?
>>
>>LCS or not, I think this makes far more sense.---
> Yes, it would seem so. But I would imagine that for this application, the
> easier to learn, the better, with no real checking influence, so that an
> English relex probably would do quite fine
A slightly more elaborate, but still basically simple language game
like Pig Latin, Ubbi-Dubbi, or Jeringonza would probably do the trick.
Maybe toss in some substitute prefixes and suffixes for common English
ones, and add a couple simple vowel replacements and inserted vowels
and you're good to go: Ouyen illiwa everno aekibru emyo apitalkasmo
uningray ogoda.
--gary
Messages in this topic (29)
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3a. Re: Siye Cases
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:00 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:10:16 -0400, Anthony Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
>The diachronic origin of the Possessive Agent:
>Atam-0 Adam
>Adam-NOM
>Mele-0 atam-me-0
>name-NOM Adam-POS-NOM
>mele atam-me-0
>name Adam-POS-NOM
>atam-me
>Adam-POS
>
>An example sentence:
>atam-me pitake-0 payikopume.
>Adam-POS animal-ABS he sees it
>
>You're right, however, that the current Siye speakers would process it as a
>quirky use of the Possessive (the Dative-Accusative is already overburdened,
>and if I follow Sumerian models the Instrumental cannot be used with
>animates). I was stuck in an Indo-European mode of justification.
Alright, that clears that up for me. Thanks.
I still don't get what motivated the process to happen in the first place,
though! What possible sort of defect does "Adam sees it" have that "Adam's
name sees it" remedies?
Alex
Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. Re: Tirelat vowels again
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:24 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:56:11 -0400, Herman Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
>I'm beginning to realize that my Tirelat vowel reconstruction probably
>isn't going to work out with /o/ and /u/ after labial consonants, /@/
>and /y/ elsewhere. I can get it to work, but only if I assume that Early
>Modern Tirelat (EMT) had lots of /wo/ and /wu/, but relatively few cases
>of /wa/ /we/ /wi/. So I decided to do some counting and see if I could
>come up with some element that could cause /o/ and /u/ to change to /@/
>and /y/ that makes sense for this set of words.
[I have reordered here. I assume it was a native alphabetical order before?]
> @ o y u
>p 2 8 3 12
>b 0 8 6 15
>f 2 4 3 18
>v 4 27 16 27
>m 7 20 7 34
>w 3 0 1 0
>k 5 10 9 43
>g 3 5 7 20
>x 1 5 18 22
>gh 1 1 2 9
>ng 0 2 1 7
>j 4 6 3 46
>sh 3 7 9 34
>zh 3 6 12 31
>ts 2 2 8 6
>dz 0 6 0 17
>s 3 10 13 32
>z 7 14 7 31
>t 11 13 8 33
>d 1 3 7 23
>n 4 25 9 46
>l 7 13 13 46
>r 13 21 18 69
sum 86 216 180 621
>
>So, while it's apparent that bilabial consonants tend to preserve /o/
>and /u/, so do the nasals /n/ and /N/, and the fricatives /s/ and /S/.
>It looks rather like velar, palatal, and dental sounds are more likely
>to change /o/ to /@/ (and to a lesser extent, /u/ to /y/).
There are some such subtrends, but I look at that and the main trend I see
is a three-to-one numerical advantage for /o u/ over /@ 1/ (in fact /u/ is
slightly more and /o/ slightly less favoured than that). That's bad news
for any attempt to develop /o u/ as special-case outcomes of what normally
develop to /@ 1/.
It does look like there's a constraint against */wo wu/, though. And */dz@
dz1/ in this set is a little remarkable too, though I can't offhand think of
a good accounting for it (for one, the bias is definitely not shared with /ts/).
>It's also possible that I'm going about this from the wrong direction,
>and I should be trying to derive /@/ /y/ from /e/ and /i/.
Possibly. Or, one of the more common ways in which vowels are influenced is
by other vowels, especially following ones, i.e. umlaut. Is there any sign
that an umlaut solution would be a good one? How do sequential vowels in
roots correlate?
Keep in mind also that /@/ and /1/ need not have developed by parallel
courses.
Alex
Messages in this topic (2)
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