There are 20 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re Barsoomian language
From: John H. Chalmers
2a. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Jim Henry
2b. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Adam Walker
2c. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Gary Shannon
2d. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Armin Buch
2e. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Tony Harris
2f. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Padraic Brown
2g. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Gary Shannon
2h. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Sam Stutter
2i. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Adam Walker
2j. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Sam Stutter
2k. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: James W.
2l. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: Adam Walker
2m. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
From: David Peterson
3a. Re: Barsoomian language, Tolkien Names.
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3b. Re: Barsoomian language, Tolkien Names.
From: Fredrik Ekman
3c. Re: Barsoomian language, Tolkien Names.
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
4a. Re: Siye Cases
From: Anthony Miles
5. Tirelat vowels again
From: Herman Miller
6. Verbing woes
From: Ralph DeCarli
Messages
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1. Re Barsoomian language
Posted by: "John H. Chalmers" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:04 am ((PDT))
Fredrik: Thanks for the information. If I ever locate any data on the
earlier attempt at a Barsoomian language, I'll post it.
--John
Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:44 am ((PDT))
On 3/13/12, Ph. D. <[email protected]> wrote:
> Gary is correct. When playing war games, the US Army calls
> the other side "Aggressor." To provide some realism, it's
> better for the other side to speak a language other than
> English. But using a natlang would take too long to teach
> a large number of soldiers, and choosing a particular natlang
> would imply that countries speaking that language were
> enemies of the USA. So back in the early 1960s, someone
Hmm. Maybe the LCS should offer the Army our professional services to
come up with one or more wargame-oriented easy-to-learn engelangs?
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (26)
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2b. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:57 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> Throwing books in the trash!? We are lucky to have a couple large used
> book shops hereabouts where just about anything between two covers can
> be happily sold to someone else who will treasure them.
>
> Padraic
>
>
Well, hereabouts we have a chain of used book stores which is quickly
accomplishing what B&N has accomplished in the new market -- the virtual
elimination of all competitors. Years ago I knew half a dozen independent
used book stores within 5 miles of where I now sit. Now, I only know of
three in a three county range, Recycled Books just off the UNT campus in
Denton Co., Duncanville Books and Comics in Dallas Co., and that dirty
little whole in the wall where you fear for death by avalanche in Ellis
Co. All the other used book stores in the DFW area (of which I am aware)
are outlets of Half Price Books -- and we have lots of them, including the
mothership (corporate headquarters) on Northwest Highway which is huge
(though less fun than it used to be in the smaller building with a pirate
ship in the middle of it). The only others I know of are a few
rare/antiquarian book stores over in *that* part of town.
Of course, the same is true for new books. I can't think of any non-B&N
new bookstores in the area any more, except for a few specialized shops,
like Imported Books over on Clarendon which deals only in foreign language
dictionaries, grammars, lesson books and novels, etc.
Then there is the Christain market which has become totally monopolized by
Family Christian Stores. Time was, I knew of several dozen independent
Christian book stores that catered to slightly different
tastes/denominational preferences/interests. Now if Family doesn't have
it, tough lumps -- search on-line.
So we have one new book chain, on Christian book chain and one used book
chain, with very few stragglers holding on to represent any variety in any
of their markets. Depressing.
Adam
Messages in this topic (26)
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2c. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:09 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/13/12, Ph. D. <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Gary is correct. When playing war games, the US Army calls
>> the other side "Aggressor." To provide some realism, it's
>> better for the other side to speak a language other than
>> English.
>
> Hmm. Maybe the LCS should offer the Army our professional services to
> come up with one or more wargame-oriented easy-to-learn engelangs?
Or ask for volunteers who already speak Klingon. I'm there's a few in
every Barracks.
--gary
Messages in this topic (26)
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2d. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Armin Buch" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:21 am ((PDT))
Am Dienstag, den 13.03.2012, 09:09 -0700 schrieb Gary Shannon:
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 3/13/12, Ph. D. <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Gary is correct. When playing war games, the US Army calls
> >> the other side "Aggressor." To provide some realism, it's
> >> better for the other side to speak a language other than
> >> English.
> >
> > Hmm. Maybe the LCS should offer the Army our professional services to
> > come up with one or more wargame-oriented easy-to-learn engelangs?
>
> Or ask for volunteers who already speak Klingon. I'm there's a few in
> every Barracks.
>
> --gary
Then we'd finally see whether bat'leths are feasible in combat.
Messages in this topic (26)
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2e. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:23 am ((PDT))
Where I live seems to be the opposite situation. Nobody of any size
wants to put a bookstore in Central Vermont, so all we have are the
local independents. Which is fine, and they're good people and good
stores, especially the used ones (which I frequent more anyway). But
they're all pretty small so often getting something online really is the
only way anyway.
On 03/13/2012 11:52 AM, Adam Walker wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Padraic Brown<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Throwing books in the trash!? We are lucky to have a couple large used
>> book shops hereabouts where just about anything between two covers can
>> be happily sold to someone else who will treasure them.
>>
>> Padraic
>>
>>
> Well, hereabouts we have a chain of used book stores which is quickly
> accomplishing what B&N has accomplished in the new market -- the virtual
> elimination of all competitors. Years ago I knew half a dozen independent
> used book stores within 5 miles of where I now sit. Now, I only know of
> three in a three county range, Recycled Books just off the UNT campus in
> Denton Co., Duncanville Books and Comics in Dallas Co., and that dirty
> little whole in the wall where you fear for death by avalanche in Ellis
> Co. All the other used book stores in the DFW area (of which I am aware)
> are outlets of Half Price Books -- and we have lots of them, including the
> mothership (corporate headquarters) on Northwest Highway which is huge
> (though less fun than it used to be in the smaller building with a pirate
> ship in the middle of it). The only others I know of are a few
> rare/antiquarian book stores over in *that* part of town.
>
> Of course, the same is true for new books. I can't think of any non-B&N
> new bookstores in the area any more, except for a few specialized shops,
> like Imported Books over on Clarendon which deals only in foreign language
> dictionaries, grammars, lesson books and novels, etc.
>
> Then there is the Christain market which has become totally monopolized by
> Family Christian Stores. Time was, I knew of several dozen independent
> Christian book stores that catered to slightly different
> tastes/denominational preferences/interests. Now if Family doesn't have
> it, tough lumps -- search on-line.
>
> So we have one new book chain, on Christian book chain and one used book
> chain, with very few stragglers holding on to represent any variety in any
> of their markets. Depressing.
>
> Adam
Messages in this topic (26)
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2f. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:30 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Throwing books in the trash!? We are lucky to have a couple large used
>> book shops hereabouts where just about anything between two covers can
>> be happily sold to someone else who will treasure them.
>
> Well, hereabouts we have a chain of used book stores which is quickly
> accomplishing what B&N has accomplished in the new market -- the virtual
> elimination of all competitors. Years ago I knew half a dozen independent
> used book stores within 5 miles of where I now sit.
We still have a lot of small independent shops around here (DC area). Can always
find something odd and useful in one of them. Leastways in Maryland. Dunno about
Virginia -- I don't go there unless it absolutely can't be helped.
The "big chain" here now is Wonderbooks. They took over the old independent
Book Alcove when the owners retired. There is also Second Story Books, All
Books Considered, Silver Spring Books, Kensington Row Bookshop (also home
to the Catalan Society of DC), Libreria Diamante and a few others I
don't know the
names of off hand. Plus the Friends of the Library run what amounts to
a used book
shop in the basement of one the regional public libraries.
> Of course, the same is true for new books. I can't think of any non-B&N
> new bookstores in the area any more, except for a few specialized shops,
> like Imported Books over on Clarendon which deals only in foreign language
> dictionaries, grammars, lesson books and novels, etc.
Yeah. They are all that's left now that Border's is gone. Well, except
for the various
college book stores.
> Then there is the Christain market which has become totally monopolized by
> Family Christian Stores. Time was, I knew of several dozen independent
> Christian book stores that catered to slightly different
> tastes/denominational preferences/interests. Now if Family doesn't have
> it, tough lumps -- search on-line.
We don't even really have much in the way of Xian book stores around here any
more. Wonder Books and Second Story both have very nice religion sections,
so I wouldn't even miss the lack of new shops.
Gallery's used to be an absolutely fantastic Xian book store / church goods
supplier. You could browse a very large selection of books, and if you felt
like you just had to have a new chasuble to go with your new altar set, well
Gallery's was the place to go. Don't know if they're still in business any more
or not. Their website doesn't actually appear to be their website, so much as
a generic clearinghouse of search links.
> Adam
Padraic
--
a ptasconumî mîftupon-i-tlupîm; cto? hÄ©-s-opâozrcîr-i-lklamunetta dlimcso?
Why does the seeker seek? Has he lost his way?
(for seeks the maker-of-search; why? indeed the way at-lost he?) Tcani 1.
Messages in this topic (26)
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2g. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:20 pm ((PDT))
Here in Eugene/Springfield OR we had several big chains, but there's
only one left. The locally-owned little bookstores are thriving,
including one large used bookstore with two growing branches in town.
I can still visit the same little used bookstores I visited 15 years
ago, and they haven't changed very much. One really huge used
paperback store closed several years back, but that was because the
owner was getting elderly and she wanted to retire. Small used
bookstores seem to work just fine here and there are lots of them.
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
---
>> Well, hereabouts we have a chain of used book stores which is quickly
>> accomplishing what B&N has accomplished in the new market -- the virtual
>> elimination of all competitors.---
> We still have a lot of small independent shops around here (DC area). Can
> always
> find something odd and useful in one of them. Leastways in Maryland. Dunno
> about
> Virginia -- I don't go there unless it absolutely can't be helped.
>
Messages in this topic (26)
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2h. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:40 pm ((PDT))
Sounds like utopia!
(Here in Manchester, as I've probably said far too many times) I work in a
little independent bookshop. Amazon, Waterstones, Blackwells and e-books in
general are not conducive to the sale of *new* books meaning times are hard and
that the shop has to re-invent itself every 18 months. All the second-hand
books go into charity shops (which I prefer actually, as the money is for a
good cause and you're more likely to get one of those amazing deals) and we
have to make a living procuring obscure books for little profit :(
That said, there is a rather good used book market outside the university
chaplaincy on Oxford Road which I like: you get all the used textbooks and the
best stuff from house clearances :)
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 13 Mar 2012, at 21:20, Gary Shannon wrote:
> Here in Eugene/Springfield OR we had several big chains, but there's
> only one left. The locally-owned little bookstores are thriving,
> including one large used bookstore with two growing branches in town.
> I can still visit the same little used bookstores I visited 15 years
> ago, and they haven't changed very much. One really huge used
> paperback store closed several years back, but that was because the
> owner was getting elderly and she wanted to retire. Small used
> bookstores seem to work just fine here and there are lots of them.
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> ---
>>> Well, hereabouts we have a chain of used book stores which is quickly
>>> accomplishing what B&N has accomplished in the new market -- the virtual
>>> elimination of all competitors.---
>
>> We still have a lot of small independent shops around here (DC area). Can
>> always
>> find something odd and useful in one of them. Leastways in Maryland. Dunno
>> about
>> Virginia -- I don't go there unless it absolutely can't be helped.
>>
Messages in this topic (26)
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2i. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:10 pm ((PDT))
I have daydreams about one "day" visitng that used bookshop in Wales. You
know the one. I could get lost in there and not re-emerge for weeks.
Adam
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sounds like utopia!
>
> (Here in Manchester, as I've probably said far too many times) I work in a
> little independent bookshop. Amazon, Waterstones, Blackwells and e-books in
> general are not conducive to the sale of *new* books meaning times are hard
> and that the shop has to re-invent itself every 18 months. All the
> second-hand books go into charity shops (which I prefer actually, as the
> money is for a good cause and you're more likely to get one of those
> amazing deals) and we have to make a living procuring obscure books for
> little profit :(
>
> That said, there is a rather good used book market outside the university
> chaplaincy on Oxford Road which I like: you get all the used textbooks and
> the best stuff from house clearances :)
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na'l cu barri"
>
> On 13 Mar 2012, at 21:20, Gary Shannon wrote:
>
> > Here in Eugene/Springfield OR we had several big chains, but there's
> > only one left. The locally-owned little bookstores are thriving,
> > including one large used bookstore with two growing branches in town.
> > I can still visit the same little used bookstores I visited 15 years
> > ago, and they haven't changed very much. One really huge used
> > paperback store closed several years back, but that was because the
> > owner was getting elderly and she wanted to retire. Small used
> > bookstores seem to work just fine here and there are lots of them.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > ---
> >>> Well, hereabouts we have a chain of used book stores which is quickly
> >>> accomplishing what B&N has accomplished in the new market -- the
> virtual
> >>> elimination of all competitors.---
> >
> >> We still have a lot of small independent shops around here (DC area).
> Can always
> >> find something odd and useful in one of them. Leastways in Maryland.
> Dunno about
> >> Virginia -- I don't go there unless it absolutely can't be helped.
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (26)
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2j. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:33 pm ((PDT))
The ones in Hay-on-Wye? I love those ones.
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 13 Mar 2012, at 22:10, Adam Walker wrote:
> I have daydreams about one "day" visitng that used bookshop in Wales. You
> know the one. I could get lost in there and not re-emerge for weeks.
>
> Adam
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like utopia!
>>
>> (Here in Manchester, as I've probably said far too many times) I work in a
>> little independent bookshop. Amazon, Waterstones, Blackwells and e-books in
>> general are not conducive to the sale of *new* books meaning times are hard
>> and that the shop has to re-invent itself every 18 months. All the
>> second-hand books go into charity shops (which I prefer actually, as the
>> money is for a good cause and you're more likely to get one of those
>> amazing deals) and we have to make a living procuring obscure books for
>> little profit :(
>>
>> That said, there is a rather good used book market outside the university
>> chaplaincy on Oxford Road which I like: you get all the used textbooks and
>> the best stuff from house clearances :)
>>
>> Sam Stutter
>> [email protected]
>> "No e na'l cu barri"
>>
>> On 13 Mar 2012, at 21:20, Gary Shannon wrote:
>>
>>> Here in Eugene/Springfield OR we had several big chains, but there's
>>> only one left. The locally-owned little bookstores are thriving,
>>> including one large used bookstore with two growing branches in town.
>>> I can still visit the same little used bookstores I visited 15 years
>>> ago, and they haven't changed very much. One really huge used
>>> paperback store closed several years back, but that was because the
>>> owner was getting elderly and she wanted to retire. Small used
>>> bookstores seem to work just fine here and there are lots of them.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> ---
>>>>> Well, hereabouts we have a chain of used book stores which is quickly
>>>>> accomplishing what B&N has accomplished in the new market -- the
>> virtual
>>>>> elimination of all competitors.---
>>>
>>>> We still have a lot of small independent shops around here (DC area).
>> Can always
>>>> find something odd and useful in one of them. Leastways in Maryland.
>> Dunno about
>>>> Virginia -- I don't go there unless it absolutely can't be helped.
>>>>
>>
Messages in this topic (26)
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2k. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "James W." [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:51 pm ((PDT))
On Mar 13, 2012, at 10:52 AM, Adam Walker wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Padraic Brown
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Throwing books in the trash!? We are lucky to have a couple large
>> used
>> book shops hereabouts where just about anything between two covers
>> can
>> be happily sold to someone else who will treasure them.
>>
>> Padraic
>>
>>
> Well, hereabouts we have a chain of used book stores which is quickly
> accomplishing what B&N has accomplished in the new market -- the
> virtual
> elimination of all competitors. Years ago I knew half a dozen
> independent
> used book stores within 5 miles of where I now sit. Now, I only
> know of
> three in a three county range, Recycled Books just off the UNT
> campus in
> Denton Co., Duncanville Books and Comics in Dallas Co., and that dirty
> little whole in the wall where you fear for death by avalanche in
> Ellis
> Co.
I really need to go to Recycled Books again. It's been too long, and
it's not like
it's that far away... Blasted money anyway.....
--------
James W. who lives in Denton Co.
Messages in this topic (26)
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2l. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:06 pm ((PDT))
It has been a couple of years since I have been, but that is where I
found my grammar of Inupiat. Adam
On 3/13/12, James W. <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 13, 2012, at 10:52 AM, Adam Walker wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Padraic Brown
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Throwing books in the trash!? We are lucky to have a couple large
>>> used
>>> book shops hereabouts where just about anything between two covers
>>> can
>>> be happily sold to someone else who will treasure them.
>>>
>>> Padraic
>>>
>>>
>> Well, hereabouts we have a chain of used book stores which is quickly
>> accomplishing what B&N has accomplished in the new market -- the
>> virtual
>> elimination of all competitors. Years ago I knew half a dozen
>> independent
>> used book stores within 5 miles of where I now sit. Now, I only
>> know of
>> three in a three county range, Recycled Books just off the UNT
>> campus in
>> Denton Co., Duncanville Books and Comics in Dallas Co., and that dirty
>> little whole in the wall where you fear for death by avalanche in
>> Ellis
>> Co.
>
> I really need to go to Recycled Books again. It's been too long, and
> it's not like
> it's that far away... Blasted money anyway.....
>
>
> --------
> James W. who lives in Denton Co.
>
Messages in this topic (26)
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2m. Re: OT: Books for postage and packaging
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:07 pm ((PDT))
On Mar 13, 2012, at 8:41 AM, Jim Henry wrote:
> Hmm. Maybe the LCS should offer the Army our professional services to
> come up with one or more wargame-oriented easy-to-learn engelangs?
LCS or not, I think this makes far more sense. After all, even though Esperanto
is different from English, its vocabulary is largely Indo-European. That plus a
regular grammar would make it easier for an English speaker to decipheror at
least to figure out some key words or phrasesand that might be enough to
figure out what the Aggressor is doing, in context. It would seem to me that
what's called for is a language that's easy to learn with absolutely no
natlang-influecned lexical choices.
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (26)
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3a. Re: Barsoomian language, Tolkien Names.
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:02 am ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:24:48 +0100 Fredrik Ekman wrote:
> > John Chalmers wrote:
> > Does anyone recall an earlier attempt to create a Barsoomian language,
> > say 10-20 years ago?
>
> The only such thing I can recall is that I read somewhere (don't remember
> where, don't remember who wrote it) that some very devoted ERB fans had
> made just such an attempt. This must have been at least 12-15 years ago. I
> remember researching the matter then, trying to find the source of the
> statement, but questions on various Internet lists did not get me
> anywhere. In fact, it is possible that what you remember is actually one
> of my posts asking about this, if you and I happened to be members of the
> same groups back then.
>
> Here is a Usenet thread on the subject, although it does not seem to
> answer your question:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fantasy.er-
burroughs/browse_thread/thread/c279bc63a5b752f8/7cbe3f4081feb984
I dimly remember a web page which attempted to reconstruct
Barsoomian from the material in ERB's stories, but I don't
remember where (Langmaker?) and it is probably gone now.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Barsoomian language, Tolkien Names.
Posted by: "Fredrik Ekman" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:27 am ((PDT))
Jörg wrote:
> I dimly remember a web page which attempted to reconstruct
> Barsoomian from the material in ERB's stories, but I don't
> remember where (Langmaker?) and it is probably gone now.
You probably refer to this one:
http://www.langmaker.com/barsoom.htm
It is not really attempting to reconstruct or expand Barsoomian, merely to
analyse it. What I (and I think John as well) was looking for is more of a
project to establish grammar rules and expand the vocabulary. Something
along the lines of Don Boozer's recent blog posts, or Paul Frommer's
Barsoomian for the John Carter movie.
Fredrik
Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Barsoomian language, Tolkien Names.
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:40 pm ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 18:15:06 +0100 Fredrik Ekman wrote:
> Jörg wrote:
> > I dimly remember a web page which attempted to reconstruct
> > Barsoomian from the material in ERB's stories, but I don't
> > remember where (Langmaker?) and it is probably gone now.
>
> You probably refer to this one:
>
> http://www.langmaker.com/barsoom.htm
>
> It is not really attempting to reconstruct or expand Barsoomian, merely to
> analyse it. What I (and I think John as well) was looking for is more of a
> project to establish grammar rules and expand the vocabulary. Something
> along the lines of Don Boozer's recent blog posts, or Paul Frommer's
> Barsoomian for the John Carter movie.
Yes, that is the page I remembered. So it just analyses the canon
and does not expand on it. I don't know whether an expanded form
of Barsoomian (a "Neo-Barsoomian" as the Tolkienists would call it)
existed before Paul Frommer's language for the movie.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: Siye Cases
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:10 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:03:33 -0400, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 17:33:52 -0400, Anthony Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Siye
>>Nouns:
>>I want to show the List the Siye cases and see if they make sense
>>(and if not, how to redistribute). Siye has a nominative/ergative
>>split in the nominals at the personal name/common noun
>>boundary.
>
>Looks well done; I especially like the sets of functions you're merging into
>single cases. But there is a point of analysis I don't understand:
>
>>The Nominative -0 is the default suffix; the -me suffix is used in
>>sentences which have a Nominative subject and an Absolutive
>>direct object (which is also -0). Technically, the subject suffix is
>>still -0, which is why the verb retains the original valency; the
>>process is
>>umkutu-0 'God-NOM'
>>mu umkutu-me-0 'something God-POSS-NOM'
>>umkutu-me 'God-POSS-NOM'
>
>That's a very odd process. Why would an ordinary transitive clause such as
>"Fred eats rice(.ABS)" come to be cast as "a possession of Fred eats
>rice(-0)"? (Presumably his mouth, in this case?) That makes the
>'underlying' subject less human / empathisable / ...; usually languages want
>to arrange that their subjects are as human / empathisable / ... as possible.
>(The same thing reflected in the direction of the hierarchy for split
>ergativity: proper names make for very nàtural subjects, and so they're only
>given nonzero marking if they're in the uncommon transitive object position.)
>
>Moreover, if the marking in this case is the possessive, isn't it a more
>straightforward analysis to say that the possessive case, not the
>nominative, is used for these subjects? Why synchronically consider it a
>form of the nominative? Quirky case is a phenomenon that exists; the fact
>that the verb remains transitive doesn't automatically imply that its
>subject has to be a nominative.
-tu
The Directive case is at heart an Allative case (the Locative is -kem, the
Ablative is -sum). Should I rename it Dative-Allative?
-pu & -ku
I'm thinking of changing an Equative -pu into an adjectival derivational
suffix and the Adverbiative suffix -ku into an adverbial derivational
suffix. I currently have none.
-hi (Vocative)
I added the modifier normally as a hedge. Are there circumstances other
than magic in which you would address inanimates? Even prey were alive.
Anglitative
I think you're looking for captative verbs here.
The diachronic origin of the Possessive Agent:
Atam-0 Adam
Adam-NOM
Mele-0 atam-me-0
name-NOM Adam-POS-NOM
mele atam-me-0
name Adam-POS-NOM
atam-me
Adam-POS
An example sentence:
atam-me pitake-0 payikopume.
Adam-POS animal-ABS he sees it
You're right, however, that the current Siye speakers would process it as a
quirky use of the Possessive (the Dative-Accusative is already overburdened,
and if I follow Sumerian models the Instrumental cannot be used with
animates). I was stuck in an Indo-European mode of justification.
I'm still thinking about fish sticks and fishing poles and Genitive
derivational processes. But I do have a new vocab word:
puku - a strip of fish meat, in contrast to live fish (uku).
uku can mean "live fish", but the independent form of the word "nothing"
(the dependent forms vary quite a lot). Calling someone a "live fish" in
Siye is quite insulting.
>
>Alex
Messages in this topic (7)
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5. Tirelat vowels again
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:56 pm ((PDT))
I'm beginning to realize that my Tirelat vowel reconstruction probably
isn't going to work out with /o/ and /u/ after labial consonants, /ë/
and /y/ elsewhere. I can get it to work, but only if I assume that Early
Modern Tirelat (EMT) had lots of /wo/ and /wu/, but relatively few cases
of /wa/ /we/ /wi/. So I decided to do some counting and see if I could
come up with some element that could cause /o/ and /u/ to change to /ë/
and /y/ that makes sense for this set of words.
ë o y u
dz 0 6 0 17
ng 0 2 1 7
n 4 25 9 46
p 2 8 3 12
d 1 3 7 23
m 7 20 7 34
b 0 8 6 15
s 3 10 13 32
sh 3 7 9 34
f 2 4 3 18
k 5 10 9 43
z 7 14 7 31
zh 3 6 12 31
l 7 13 13 46
v 4 27 16 27
g 3 5 7 20
r 13 21 18 69
j 4 6 3 46
x 1 5 18 22
t 11 13 8 33
gh 1 1 2 9
ts 2 2 8 6
w 3 0 1 0
So, while it's apparent that bilabial consonants tend to preserve /o/
and /u/, so do the nasals /n/ and /Å/, and the fricatives /s/ and /Ê/.
It looks rather like velar, palatal, and dental sounds are more likely
to change /o/ to /ë/ (and to a lesser extent, /u/ to /y/).
It's also possible that I'm going about this from the wrong direction,
and I should be trying to derive /ë/ /y/ from /e/ and /i/.
Messages in this topic (1)
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6. Verbing woes
Posted by: "Ralph DeCarli" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:58 pm ((PDT))
Here is the background.
I have entity nouns and active nouns which have plural forms. I
have adjectives and adverbs which have degrees of comparison. All
of these things can be 'verbed'.
Verbing gives us the following forms. The parenthesis show possible
interpretations of the verbatim verb forms. The vertical lines
separate individual glyphs. Most of the sentences in quotes below
are single glyphs.
A singular entity noun becomes an verb of the form "to be"
"They are still (many) record"
(They are records - see below for plural)
"It was (once) city" (It was a city)
the plural indicates an attributive verb
"It is still (many) records" (This is a recorded message)
An adjective becomes a verb of the form "to seem" or "to
resemble"
"It is still (many) recorded" (It resembles a record)
"Y'all are still (many) most citified" (You seem very urban)
The degree of comparison (i.e. 'most') indicates the strength of
the resemblance
A singular active noun becomes a verb of the form "to do" or "to
make"
"I am still (once) recorder" (I will make a record)
"You were (once) city dweller" (You visited or lived in the city).
the plural indicates an attributive verb
"This is still (many) recorders | a microphone"
(This is a recording microphone)
An adverb becomes a verb of the form "to use" or "to control"
"We will (once) recordingly"
(We will view/read/listen to/play a record)
"Buses | many are still (many) less cityishly"
(Buses provide partial access to the city)
The degree of comparison (i.e. 'less') indicates the strength of
the control or the relative frequency of the use.
I'm happy with everything except the plural forms. I already have
adjectives, so I can live without attributive verbs (and the
examples aren't very good).
Can anyone think of another type of verb that would be more useful?
Here are my other constraints and desires:
I already have plural persons and 'semi-continual' verb tenses
{shown as (once) versus (many)-times in the examples).
I don't want to require agreement between verbs and plural subjects
or objects.
I can't ignore the verbing of plural nouns. They exist within the
structure of a glyph and I have to account for them somehow.
It would be helpful if the verb carried some suggestion of plurality.
The new form should only apply to verbs of 'doing' and 'being'.
Thanks, Ralph
--
[email protected] ==> Ralph De Carli
The four types of love.
Platonic - I like you,
Erotic - I want you,
Agapic - I worship you,
Aortic - I heart you.
Messages in this topic (1)
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