There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: multiple umlauts
From: Roman Rausch
2a. another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Wm Annis
2b. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Armin Buch
2c. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2d. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Daniel Bowman
2e. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Wm Annis
2f. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Daniel Bowman
2g. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: BPJ
2h. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Wm Annis
2i. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: David Peterson
2j. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Herman Miller
2k. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Ralph DeCarli
2l. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Daniel Bowman
2m. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Padraic Brown
2n. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Wm Annis
3a. Re: Attributives, Relative Clauses, and Coordinating Conjunctions
From: Herman Miller
4. Did Dr. James Antaiaga Really Translate Concolor?
From: Daniel Bowman
5a. Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
From: Arthaey Angosii
5b. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
From: Gary Shannon
5c. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
From: Arthaey Angosii
5d. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
From: MorphemeAddict
5e. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
From: Arthaey Angosii
5f. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
From: MorphemeAddict
5g. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
From: Arthaey Angosii
6. introducing evidentiality into Angosey
From: Daniel Bowman
Messages
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1a. Re: multiple umlauts
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:25 am ((PDT))
>I'm not sure how natural the multiple umlauts are. Any comments?
The umlauts I know have a historical order to them. In Welsh, a-umlaut comes
before i-umlaut, so that L. _grammatica_ becomes W. _gramadeg_ rather than
_*gremedeg_.
Celtic and Germanic umlaut likes final syllables, for some reason, although
there are other assimilation processes triggered by consonants; and your
changes remind me more of the latter:
e > i > y before g + vowel: _*tegos_ > _tig_ > _ty_ 'house'
e > i > y before nasal + stop, or liquid + stop: _tempora_ > _tymor_
e > a before r + cons.: _serpens_ > _sarff_
e > i > y before ss, st: _testis_ > _tyst_
e > a/o after non-syllabic u: _vesper-_ > _gosper_
>This results in 7 vowels
Not 6? Or do you have a [y] > [i] in there?
Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:27 am ((PDT))
It was just last year that David posted a link to a linguistics paper
that used three conlangs as evidence. It doesn't seem we ever figured
out with 100% certainty if this were a joke or a mistake.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/message/178774
I've have just discovered another one, Boudewijn Rempt's Denden:
http://research.ncl.ac.uk/linearization/Particle%20problem%20handout%20final.pdf
See page five.
We should start collecting a list of these. :)
--
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Armin Buch" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:59 am ((PDT))
Conlangs being used where no natlang can give an example, that's just
great! Thanks for finding them. I'll definitely work these stories into
my course on conlangs ;)
So did they not know what these languages are? That handout has
citations for every other language, but for Denden there is none. If
they really need it, then they should have the guts to say that a
conlang example is the best they found, that it looks plausible, and
let's therefore say the gap in natlang data is merely accidental.
Am Dienstag, den 27.03.2012, 10:27 -0500 schrieb Wm Annis:
> It was just last year that David posted a link to a linguistics paper
> that used three conlangs as evidence. It doesn't seem we ever figured
> out with 100% certainty if this were a joke or a mistake.
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/message/178774
>
> I've have just discovered another one, Boudewijn Rempt's Denden:
>
>
> http://research.ncl.ac.uk/linearization/Particle%20problem%20handout%20final.pdf
>
> See page five.
>
> We should start collecting a list of these. :)
>
Messages in this topic (14)
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2c. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:25 am ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:00:09 +0200 Armin Buch wrote:
> Conlangs being used where no natlang can give an example, that's just
> great! Thanks for finding them. I'll definitely work these stories into
> my course on conlangs ;)
>
> So did they not know what these languages are? That handout has
> citations for every other language, but for Denden there is none. If
> they really need it, then they should have the guts to say that a
> conlang example is the best they found, that it looks plausible, and
> let's therefore say the gap in natlang data is merely accidental.
The bibliography section of this paper actually does list Boudewijn's
grammar of Denden - a document which in the introduction gives quite
clear indications ("Northern Hemisphere of Andal", "Charyan Empire"
etc.) that the language is fictional. Sure, it is not as obvious as
with a "draconic language" or a "language of small furry beings from
the second planet of Tau Ceti", but scrupulous research should give
the result that the thing has been made up.
This is a significant problem with lostlangs, which are meant to be
set "in the real world", so any indications of fictionality by
mentioning obviously non-existent places aren't applicable, and
this worries me (whose main conlang projects are such lostlangs).
Such conlangs should come with a "This is a work of fiction"
warning sign on the front page.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (14)
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2d. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:45 am ((PDT))
>
> I've have just discovered another one, Boudewijn Rempt's Denden:
>
>
> http://research.ncl.ac.uk/linearization/Particle%20problem%20handout%20final.pdf
>
> See page five.
>
> Is this an article intended for (or already put through) peer review, or
is it a class assignment/report? I am unfamiliar with linguistics journals
but I suspect the latter.
Messages in this topic (14)
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2e. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:48 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Daniel Bowman
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Is this an article intended for (or already put through) peer review, or
> is it a class assignment/report?
Neither. It looks like a handout for a presentation a common early
step on the way to a full paper.
--
wm
Messages in this topic (14)
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2f. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:55 am ((PDT))
>
>
> Neither. It looks like a handout for a presentation a common early
> step on the way to a full paper.
>
> --
> wm
>
That makes sense (perhaps I should have read the URL more closely). What
I'm trying to determine is how serious the inclusion of a conlang is. If
this was simply a handout for a class assignment, or even a handout made by
the professor for his/her linguistics class, then this is relatively
excusable. A conlang could even be used to point out the *possibility* of
a certain construction. However, if this is a presentation at a
professional conference, then the inclusion of the conlang is a much bigger
problem, in my opinion. This is because it is being passed off as a
legitimate piece of evidence for a natural construction.
Messages in this topic (14)
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2g. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:25 pm ((PDT))
On 2012-03-27 18:55, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>>
>>
>> Neither. It looks like a handout for a presentation a common early
>> step on the way to a full paper.
>>
>> --
>> wm
>>
>
> That makes sense (perhaps I should have read the URL more closely). What
> I'm trying to determine is how serious the inclusion of a conlang is. If
> this was simply a handout for a class assignment, or even a handout made by
> the professor for his/her linguistics class, then this is relatively
> excusable. A conlang could even be used to point out the *possibility* of
> a certain construction. However, if this is a presentation at a
> professional conference, then the inclusion of the conlang is a much bigger
> problem, in my opinion. This is because it is being passed off as a
> legitimate piece of evidence for a natural construction.
>
Either way it's not the conlangers' problem. Painters are not
required to glue a note that the object/person depicted does
not exist in the external world, and novelists are not required
to print a note that their text is fictional on every page.
The burden of finding out whether they quote a fictional
or a factual work rests on the person doing the quoting.
Would anyone have blamed Borges if someone had quoted one
of his quasi'scholarly texts as a real scholarly text? No!
If I were to produce a photograph of a dragon, would it be
my responsibility to take precautions that nobody believe
that it depicts a being actually alive somewhere? No!
Only if I produced a description of a conlang and swore
that it was a description of a natlang would I *maybe* be
guilty of fraud, but OTOH many a novel lets its narrator
make a statement that what s/he tells is a true story!
Perhaps there rests on us a burden of raising awareness that
there is such a thing as artlangs, but not in the sonse that
it's incumbent on us to prevent that anybody mistakes an artlang
for a natlang, but in the sense that it's in our own interest
to raise awareness and acceptance that there is an art form
like ours.
BTW the distinction is not "real language" vs. conlang,
it's natlang vs. conlang; if it has a phonology, a
morphology and a syntax it's a language, if you ask me!
Having a community of speakers is not a requirement
even on a natlang; it is a requirement for being called
a _living language_, but not for being called a
language. There are plenty of dead natlangs with a
smaller corpus and thinner descriptive grammars than
many a conlang. And there is no discernible structural
difference between a grammar/dictionary of a conlang
and one of a natlang, and although there probably is an
ontological difference, it's not about languagehood,
it's about natlanghood. A conlang _is_ thus a language
in a sense in which an image of a pipe is not a pipe!
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images>
It might be *fun*, though, to write "Ceci n'est pas une langue"
at the end of a conlang grammar!
/bpj
Messages in this topic (14)
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2h. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:45 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:24 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> Either way it's not the conlangers' problem.
I agree with this completely, though I confess I do feel some
sympathy with a poor linguistics researcher confronted by the
wealth of real linguistic data available on the web. With between
6000 and 7000 natural languages (depending on how you
count), it's hardly possible to know every legitimate language
name or even family. I mean, absent a few paragraphs (and
the domain name), I would have no problem seeing Okuna as
a natlang. Same with Ayeri.
In any case, I feel some obligation to let these people know,
gently, that they may need to make some adjustments if this
data might make it into a paper. If no one else has already
contacted them, I can.
--
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (14)
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2i. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:49 pm ((PDT))
On Mar 27, 2012, at 12:24 PM, BPJ wrote:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images>
>
> It might be *fun*, though, to write "Ceci n'est pas une langue"
> at the end of a conlang grammar!
HA! You beat me to it!
It's my feeling that eventually these things will get sorted, but I think it's
a fine idea to keep a list of these conlangs that are counted as natlangs in
linguistics papers. If anything, maybe one of us can do one of those Cracked
"list" humor articles.
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (14)
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2j. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:55 pm ((PDT))
On 3/27/2012 3:24 PM, BPJ wrote:
> It might be *fun*, though, to write "Ceci n'est pas une langue"
> at the end of a conlang grammar!
"O ko ne he pasa." (Tiki)
I just had to dig out Ta Pasa Tiki for this example since it was created
by a fictional relative of René Magritte (a former supporter of Volapük
who thought he had a better idea).
Messages in this topic (14)
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2k. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Ralph DeCarli" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:57 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:24:48 +0200
BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> It might be *fun*, though, to write "Ceci n'est pas une langue"
> at the end of a conlang grammar!
>
You are welcome to use my disclaimer.
"This language is not designed, licensed or intended for use in the
design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear
facility, interstellar vehicle, nano-assembler molecule,
inter-dimensional portal or act of God."
Ralph
--
[email protected] ==> Ralph De Carli
The four types of love.
Platonic - I like you,
Erotic - I want you,
Agapic - I worship you,
Aortic - I heart you.
Messages in this topic (14)
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2l. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:03 pm ((PDT))
> I agree with this completely, though I confess I do feel some
> sympathy with a poor linguistics researcher confronted by the
> wealth of real linguistic data available on the web. With between
> 6000 and 7000 natural languages (depending on how you
> count), it's hardly possible to know every legitimate language
> name or even family. I mean, absent a few paragraphs (and
> the domain name), I would have no problem seeing Okuna as
> a natlang. Same with Ayeri.
>
I understand the overwhelming nature of the language resources on the
Internet, but I feel a bit less sympathetic. However, this might be
because the way research is done in linguistics may be different than the
way it is done in Geology (my profession). When I write a paper I intend
to submit to peer review or create a presentation for a conference, my
references are other peer-reviewed papers. Failing that, I feel a need to
use only those references that I am positive are in my field of study. So
I would be willing to use a doctoral or a master's thesis, or perhaps a
conference abstract. Is linguistics different?
I am frankly quite surprised that this is the second instance of a conlang
being mistaken for a natlang. I could understand the phenomenon if these
researchers were citing a paper *about* conlangs that did not make explicit
enough that the languages under question are invented.
@Jorg: I also don't think that you to fret about Old Albic being
incorporated into a paper on natural languages. As far as I know, you has
not written articles on Old Albic that purport to be bona fide academic
publications. Since you have not, the onus is on the researcher.
In summary: I feel that we may present whatever information we like about
our conlangs so long as we don't commit the ethical sin of trying to
deceive anyone into believing that our language is "natural".
I wrote extensively on this subject last year:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1103D&L=CONLANG&P=R8873&X=57870043327F02832E&Y=danny.c.bowman%40gmail.com
>
> In any case, I feel some obligation to let these people know,
> gently, that they may need to make some adjustments if this
> data might make it into a paper. If no one else has already
> contacted them, I can.
>
I concur. Are you/have you contacted them?
>
> --
> William S. Annis
> www.aoidoi.org www.scholiastae.org
>
Messages in this topic (14)
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2m. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:30 pm ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 3/27/12, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am frankly quite surprised that this is the second
> instance of a conlang
> being mistaken for a natlang. I could understand the
> phenomenon if these
> researchers were citing a paper *about* conlangs that did
> not make explicit
> enough that the languages under question are invented.
As far as I'm concerned, all this means is that we (as a group) and two or
three of us (in particular) are doing a fantástic job of our art! This is
like a garage produced "Picasso" AND a basement written "Shakespeare" being
"found" at a rummage sale by separate well respected art and literature
curators and being taken as The Real Deal. Not bad for a bunch of dabblers
in the secret vice, eh.
I'm sure that this happens far more often in non-academic circles. I know
Kerno has been taken as a dialect of French on a couple occasions. I'm sure
this experience is not unique among us!
Padraic
Messages in this topic (14)
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2n. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:26 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> I concur. Are you/have you contacted them?
I have.
--
wm
Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: Attributives, Relative Clauses, and Coordinating Conjunctions
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:29 pm ((PDT))
On 3/26/2012 8:26 PM, Logan Kearsley wrote:
> I was rather attracted to the Nahuatl strategy of noun apposition,
> where adjectives are essentially nouns and you do attribution by just
> putting a bunch of them together; so, "a big man" == "a big-thing a
> man". Sadly, this would result in unacceptable syntactic ambiguity in
> Mev Pailom with VAP word order and freely variable transitivity.
> However, I already had a nice connective particle "eq", sort of a
> phrase-level subordinating conjunction, which says "this phrase
> modifies a following noun phrase", for use in much the same way as
> using a noun in an adjective slot in English or using the "-ish"
> noun->adjective derivation, so I thought "I'll just come up with
> another connective particle with slightly different semantics" and
> went and invented a particle (temporarily called "naq") that means
> "these two phrases are co-referential".
> I then thought "hey, that could be extended to be a generic
> coordinating conjunction, not just for doing attribution in noun
> phrases".
> So, I now have a generic coordinating conjunction that means "the
> things being coordinated are co-referential". Useful for appositives
> and many other things. E.g.
>
> "The president COREF Obama" == "President Obama"
> "Great-thing COREF Alexander" == "Alexander the Great" (cf.
> "Great-thing MOD Alexander" == "Alexander, who happens to be a great
> guy")
Lindiga (which can be either VSO or VOS) has a similar conjunction
"vie", which I've used with nouns or adjectives (and glossed as "namely").
pachtek rlisi vie Keki rla-Kokiri-t
weapon first namely sword (people)-Kokiri-GEN
(your) first weapon, the Kokiri Sword
têngi tir-ás-a paia-t vie kiesiri
enough buy-ing-GEN shield-GEN namely 40
enough (Rupees) to buy a shield, (specifically) 40
> "I broke COREF dropped the vase" == "I broke the vase by dropping it"
> (dropping and breaking are different descriptions of the same actual
> action)
> "I fixed a bug COREF made my boss happy" == "I made my boss happy by
> fixing a bug"
> "I win COREF you lose" == "I win and you lose, and these are the same
> thing" (cf. "I win this game and you lose that totally unrelated one")
I haven't used "vie" in this way, but I don't know any reason why it
couldn't be used like that. More frequently verbs are joined with "min"
(while), along the lines of "I broke the vase while dropping it". But I
can see "I win, you lose" being a good case for using "vie".
> This also turns out to be useful for distinguishing supplemental and
> restrictive relative clauses:
> "Monarch butterflies COREF what flies south in winter are pretty" =
> "Monarch butterflies, which fly south in winter, are pretty."
> "Butterflies what flies south in winter are pretty" = "Butterflies
> that fly south in winter are pretty."
>
> Which was a nice unintended consequence.
>
> -l.
Messages in this topic (2)
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4. Did Dr. James Antaiaga Really Translate Concolor?
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:46 pm ((PDT))
Hello everyone,
I was inspired by the recent discussions about Denden to post the following
fictional account I wrote many years ago. It was for a creative writing
assignment in which we were tasked to use Ursula LeGuin's concept of
"therolinguistics". It includes some analysis of my conlang Angosey. Note
that "James Antaiaga" was (and continues to be) my alter ego.
Did Dr. James Antaiaga Really Translate Concolor?
Daniel Bowman
There has been considerable debate lately in the thero-linguistic
community
over the validity of the late Dr. James Antaiagas findings regarding the
literary traditions of the Mountain Lion (Felis concolor). As one of Dr.
Antaiagas most well known colleagues, it falls to me to bring a fair,
balanced perspective to this strange individual and his controversial
findings. Extensive thought has led me to believe this is impossible,
therefore I will present what I know of his work and allow the reader to
make his or her own judgments.
James Murray Antaiaga had an ordinary career prior to his interest in
mountain lions. He attended a small town high school and went to college at
a fairly prestigious university. It was here that his interest in
linguistics began to manifest itself to the greater world, though there is
evidence he had attempted to create at least one imaginary language in high
school. He showed a great propensity for languages throughout college,
especially in the cutting edge field of thero-linguistics, namely, the study
of the linguistic expressions of nonhuman entities. In fact, he showed such
an aptitude for the languages of large cats that he was involved in his
first research project while still an undergraduate. It was this project
that first introduced him to the mountain lions living in the area of Sierra
Ladrone, approximately sixty miles south of Albuquerque, New Mexico.
His method of extracting meaning from his subjects is the only truly
orthodox part of his research. For those who are not well versed in
thero-linguistic methodology, I have included an excerpt from the methods
section of his doctorate thesis by way of explanation:
"Being solitary creatures, mountain lions have not developed a language
comparable to, say, penguins or whales; in fact, the linguistic expressions
of Felis concolor are hardly used for communication at all. It could even
be said that the vocalizations, scent patterns, and other communications of
the mountain lion are just as they appear to be: simple expressions such as
aggression or the desire to mate.
The true literary contribution of the mountain lion comes from its
pattern of behavior as affected by the weather, the mating season, human
encroachment, and other external factors. A mountain lion will exhibit
certain signs if it is, say, lonely, or aggressive, or afraid. It is from
this pattern of behavior (heart rate, EEG, position in relation to the
borders of its territory, tail twitches per minute) that morphemes begin to
emerge. It is these morphemes that form the bulk of the Concolor languages
poetic expression."
Dr. Antaiagas method of decoding mountain lions morphemic syntax
appears
to have been extensive study of his subjects habits and (more
significantly) body language. What is truly revolutionary is his way of
interpreting the perceived morphemes: he translated them into a language he
had created in high school (apparently to add an aural component, thereby
making it easier for him to comprehend) and then translating that language
into English. He claimed that his language, with its verb-subject-object
order and peculiarities of expression, was better able to represent the true
form of Concolor. The validity of this statement is unknown, since only
incomplete versions of the vocabulary and grammatical structure of his
language (known as Angosai) have survived. However, his doctorate did
contain several Concolor poems written in Angosai with accompanying
English translations, such as this one.
Lenah
Loneliness
La senethaya dei angaius al zanathya aleth?
Can the world I roam compare to the fires of the heart?
Esaia au zanakh in tal amahaltha.
It appears to me as ashes in a rocky landscape.
Halamaya vath isa.
I pause here for an instant,
Es emgraia, arakhnaya eia elena el emesharathya.
Then I descend from where I am watching you and the finality of my footsteps
resounds through (eternity) or (a very long time).
This is an example of the poetry of a male living high on the north
peak of
Ladrone, approximately six hours after sighting a female in his territory.
This poem poignantly illustrates the conflict between this males solitary
nature and his sexuality through the use of imagery, especially in the first
two lines. Can the world I roam defeat lust? he asks himself in the first
line, and in the second, he answers himself: Now the world looks only like
ashes in a rocky landscape suggesting loneliness is not as attractive as it
once was. The next two lines examine his decision to approach and court the
female.
Upon first examining this poem, it may appear to the reader that the
English translation contains far more morphemes then could possibly be
packed into the Angosai text. A detailed linguistic analysis of the Angosai
will, in fact, bear this out: the direct translation of the text renders a
much simpler English version.
Can the world compare to the fires of the heart?
Ashes in a broken land.
I pause for an instant,
Then I descend, [and] eternity echoes my footsteps.
This has led critics of Dr. Antaiagas work to suggest he may have
overly
interpreted the morphemes he observed. It has been questioned why he
translated Concolor into Angosai in the first place, as it is clear that he
took many liberties within the final English text. It is indeed a fair
question to ask why the thero-linguistic community should accept the work of
a man who was incapable of even staying within the constraints of his made
up language. Although these and many other valid criticisms have been made,
the sheer audacity and unorthodox nature of Dr. Antaiagas interpretation of
Concolor continue to intrigue many of his collegues.
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
Posted by: "Arthaey Angosii" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:06 pm ((PDT))
Hey, everyone! Long time no email. :) (I've just been busy with work
and with life in general, nothing terribly exciting or bad going on.)
Anyway, I've started taking an ASL (American Sign Language) class and
am really disappointed in all the various transcription systems that
are out there. The most common failing is a lack of transcribing
non-manual aspects of ASL, which are grammatically necessary. The
second common failing is they they are more geared toward academic
documentation, not toward a useful day-to-day writing system.
I had been hopeful about the new kid on the block, si5s, but it seems
lacking too (doesn't encode z axis of movement, doesn't encode palm
orientation, etc).
I asked on a Deaf forum about writing systems and was pretty
thoroughly shot down as writing wasn't something Deaf people were
interested in, encoding a spatial-visual language into a linear
written space was impossible, and I was barking up the wrong tree.
But for *myself*, I sure would like to be able to write myself notes
about what I learn in my ASL class, make flashcards, etc. Plus my
natural inclination toward conlangs and conscripts likes the challenge
of trying to encode everything that's phonemic and necessary about ASL
into a written form. Based on my conversations on that Deaf forum, I
have no illusions that actual Deaf people and native signers of ASL
will be interested in a written form of ASL, but then again, that's
never stopped me from creating my conlangs even though no one is
interested in speaking them.
So. Are there any ASL signers here (Deaf or otherwise) that have done
something like this already? Or who would be interested in giving me
feedback if I end up working on my own conscript?
--
AA
http://conlang.arthaey.com
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:36 pm ((PDT))
The most complete conscript writing system I ever worked out was one I
devised while taking an ASL class for two semesters many years ago. With
each new ASL sign I learned I invented a purely arbitrary glyph that had
nothing whatsoever to do with the hand positions or motions of the sign. By
the time I finished the two semesters I had just over 2,000 glyphs in my
dictionary and I was regularly writing my daily journal and taking notes in
classes using the system.
It was all documented on file cards, and I hadn't used it for many years
when it was all lost in a house fire. In the several decades since then I
have two or three times tried to reconstruct the writing system, but I
never got very far with it. The first time was fun. Trying to do it over
again was too much like work.
FWIW: Here's a thread from 2005 on the same subject:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0502C&L=CONLANG&D=0&P=14820
--gary
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Arthaey Angosii <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hey, everyone! Long time no email. :) (I've just been busy with work
> and with life in general, nothing terribly exciting or bad going on.)
>
> Anyway, I've started taking an ASL (American Sign Language) class and
> am really disappointed in all the various transcription systems that
> are out there. The most common failing is a lack of transcribing
> non-manual aspects of ASL, which are grammatically necessary. The
> second common failing is they they are more geared toward academic
> documentation, not toward a useful day-to-day writing system.
>
> I had been hopeful about the new kid on the block, si5s, but it seems
> lacking too (doesn't encode z axis of movement, doesn't encode palm
> orientation, etc).
>
> I asked on a Deaf forum about writing systems and was pretty
> thoroughly shot down as writing wasn't something Deaf people were
> interested in, encoding a spatial-visual language into a linear
> written space was impossible, and I was barking up the wrong tree.
>
> But for *myself*, I sure would like to be able to write myself notes
> about what I learn in my ASL class, make flashcards, etc. Plus my
> natural inclination toward conlangs and conscripts likes the challenge
> of trying to encode everything that's phonemic and necessary about ASL
> into a written form. Based on my conversations on that Deaf forum, I
> have no illusions that actual Deaf people and native signers of ASL
> will be interested in a written form of ASL, but then again, that's
> never stopped me from creating my conlangs even though no one is
> interested in speaking them.
>
> So. Are there any ASL signers here (Deaf or otherwise) that have done
> something like this already? Or who would be interested in giving me
> feedback if I end up working on my own conscript?
>
>
> --
> AA
>
> http://conlang.arthaey.com
>
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
Posted by: "Arthaey Angosii" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:44 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:35 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> The most complete conscript writing system I ever worked out was one I
> devised while taking an ASL class for two semesters many years ago. With
> each new ASL sign I learned I invented a purely arbitrary glyph that had
> nothing whatsoever to do with the hand positions or motions of the sign. By
> the time I finished the two semesters I had just over 2,000 glyphs in my
> dictionary and I was regularly writing my daily journal and taking notes in
> classes using the system.
Interesting idea, to completely abandon any attempt at having a
"phonetic" system but go all-in for a "ideographic" one.
I kinda want to try something that gives readers* at least some amount
of "sound it out"-ability. But I'll keep your example in the back of
my mind if this proves too frustrating for me. :P
*by which I mean, myself ;)
> It was all documented on file cards, and I hadn't used it for many years
> when it was all lost in a house fire. In the several decades since then I
> have two or three times tried to reconstruct the writing system, but I
> never got very far with it. The first time was fun. Trying to do it over
> again was too much like work.
Wow, that's very unfortunate. I know what you mean about how un-fun it
can be to recreate work you've already done once.
> FWIW: Here's a thread from 2005 on the same subject:
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0502C&L=CONLANG&D=0&P=14820
Thanks! I tried searching for "sign language"/ASL & writing/written,
but that post didn't turn up.
--
AA
--
AA
http://conlang.arthaey.com
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
5d. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:09 pm ((PDT))
What is evaluation of SLIPA? http://dedalvs.com/slipa.html
I have long wanted a way to write ASL (and other sign languages).
stevo
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Arthaey Angosii <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hey, everyone! Long time no email. :) (I've just been busy with work
> and with life in general, nothing terribly exciting or bad going on.)
>
> Anyway, I've started taking an ASL (American Sign Language) class and
> am really disappointed in all the various transcription systems that
> are out there. The most common failing is a lack of transcribing
> non-manual aspects of ASL, which are grammatically necessary. The
> second common failing is they they are more geared toward academic
> documentation, not toward a useful day-to-day writing system.
>
> I had been hopeful about the new kid on the block, si5s, but it seems
> lacking too (doesn't encode z axis of movement, doesn't encode palm
> orientation, etc).
>
> I asked on a Deaf forum about writing systems and was pretty
> thoroughly shot down as writing wasn't something Deaf people were
> interested in, encoding a spatial-visual language into a linear
> written space was impossible, and I was barking up the wrong tree.
>
> But for *myself*, I sure would like to be able to write myself notes
> about what I learn in my ASL class, make flashcards, etc. Plus my
> natural inclination toward conlangs and conscripts likes the challenge
> of trying to encode everything that's phonemic and necessary about ASL
> into a written form. Based on my conversations on that Deaf forum, I
> have no illusions that actual Deaf people and native signers of ASL
> will be interested in a written form of ASL, but then again, that's
> never stopped me from creating my conlangs even though no one is
> interested in speaking them.
>
> So. Are there any ASL signers here (Deaf or otherwise) that have done
> something like this already? Or who would be interested in giving me
> feedback if I end up working on my own conscript?
>
>
> --
> AA
>
> http://conlang.arthaey.com
>
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
5e. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
Posted by: "Arthaey Angosii" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:44 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 7:08 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> What is evaluation of SLIPA? http://dedalvs.com/slipa.html
I haven't read all of David's SLIPA page â it's super detailed, which
is great! but I haven't read through it yet. :P
But I do see that David's goal was to make an sign-equivalent of IPA
(hence the name). As he writes himself, "[SLIPA is] primarily intended
for transcription. I don't think SLIPA is a good orthography or
romanization for a signed language, just like I don't think the IPA is
a good orthography for any spoken language."
Another of SLIPA's goals was ASCII-compatibility, which is important
for his stated goal of having a way for conlangers to discuss
consignlangs over the listserv, which tends to get hungry and eat
non-ASCII characters from time to time. I'm wanting to use (or design)
something that looks like a naturalistic writing system, and I'm
willing to let it be fontless/handwritten-only (at first).
My next task is to read through David's page, though, because I'm sure
I'll learn a lot about what needs to be supported...
--
AA
--
AA
http://conlang.arthaey.com
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
5f. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:04 pm ((PDT))
I look forward to reading what you come up with.
stevo
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Arthaey Angosii <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 7:08 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> > What is evaluation of SLIPA? http://dedalvs.com/slipa.html
>
> I haven't read all of David's SLIPA page â it's super detailed, which
> is great! but I haven't read through it yet. :P
>
> But I do see that David's goal was to make an sign-equivalent of IPA
> (hence the name). As he writes himself, "[SLIPA is] primarily intended
> for transcription. I don't think SLIPA is a good orthography or
> romanization for a signed language, just like I don't think the IPA is
> a good orthography for any spoken language."
>
> Another of SLIPA's goals was ASCII-compatibility, which is important
> for his stated goal of having a way for conlangers to discuss
> consignlangs over the listserv, which tends to get hungry and eat
> non-ASCII characters from time to time. I'm wanting to use (or design)
> something that looks like a naturalistic writing system, and I'm
> willing to let it be fontless/handwritten-only (at first).
>
> My next task is to read through David's page, though, because I'm sure
> I'll learn a lot about what needs to be supported...
>
>
> --
> AA
>
> --
> AA
>
> http://conlang.arthaey.com
>
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
5g. Re: Written Form of American Sign Language (ASL)
Posted by: "Arthaey Angosii" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:19 pm ((PDT))
Even though I'm not sure I like Sutton SignWriting, it does seem like
the only writing system that has actual ASL users. In looking for
information on written sign language, I stumbled across this blog
written in ASL! Maybe I should give SignWriting another look...
http://frostvillage.com/blog/lang/ase/
Just thought you guys following this thread might find the blog cool. :)
--
AA
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6. introducing evidentiality into Angosey
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:31 pm ((PDT))
I am on a roll tonight.
About 6 months ago, I wrote about my intention to incorporate evidentiality
into my conlang Angosey. Six months later, during a particularly boring
meeting, I got around to it. There are six classes of evidentiality, and
they are marked as a prefix on the verb. Since I think the evidentiality
prefix evolved from adverbs, which are always placed before the verb phrase,
I have made evidentiality precede other prefixes such as the gender conjugation.
Here are the classes:
Class 1: Visual/aural observation
I see a dog.
Class 2: Other senses (smell, taste), emotive sense, indirect observation
(tracks)
The soup is delicious.
Class 3: Secondhand knowledge, generally through direct written or spoken
communication
She was at the concert yesterday (she told me so)
Class 4: Thirdhand and above (learned knowledge here)
It will be cold tomorrow (because I looked it up on weather underground)
Class 5: Common knowledge (hearsay, folk knowledge)
Birds fly south in the winter (I was told this)
Class 6: Dubious or suspect material
She was at the concert yesterday (or so she says)
Comments? Criticisms?
Welcome back, Arthaey!
Danny
Messages in this topic (1)
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